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Author Topic: Metropolitan Seraphim challenges LatinArchbishop Nikolaos to Trial by Holy Water  (Read 4745 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 22, 2013, 02:57:02 AM »

Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus challenged the Catholic Archbishop of Athens, Nikolaos Foskolos to a trial of strength, to prove that the Orthodox Church is the One True Church. His Beatitude challenges that along with Nikolaos together to take tap water from the same source together and each to put the same water in their own bottles. Then, to bless the water and to leave it in a safe for one month, and after one month, to open the safe again and reveal which is the true faith. One requirement, Seraphim requires that Nikolaos does not put any salt in his water. Metropolitan Seraphim claims that after a month, the catholic holy water will stench, and the orthodox holy water will smell "sterile".

source:
http://www.madata.gr/epikairotita/social/300429.html


Frankly, I think a old fashioned trial by fire would be more exciting.
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2013, 03:00:44 AM »

These bishops obviously haven't heard of pasadi97.  laugh

Seriously, the passage "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" comes to mind.  Tongue
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2013, 03:06:44 AM »

These bishops obviously haven't heard of pasadi97.  laugh

Seriously, the passage "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" comes to mind.  Tongue

I have not heard of Pasadi97 either, who is he?
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2013, 03:22:04 AM »

These bishops obviously haven't heard of pasadi97.  laugh

Seriously, the passage "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" comes to mind.  Tongue

I have not heard of Pasadi97 either, who is he?

He hasn't posted here for a while, but here are some typical posts of his:

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

In Roman Catholic Church even if they follow the steps of Holy water that is blessed by Spirit of God the Holly water created needs salt, humans to intervene, so this may show that Holy spirit does not arrive in Roman Catholicism.

The idea is that side by side Romano Cathoplic Holy water resist less that Eastern orthodox Holy Water.

The idea is that when Romano Catholics and Orthodox prayed to God to discover where is the truth God made Romano Catholic Holy water green and smelly .


Take the example Holy water where the process of obtaining it was changed and thus in Romano Catholicism people put salt into Holy Water which does not happen in Early Church and Eastern Orthodoxy. Take Holy water from both Romano Catholicism and Eastern orthodoxy and see which one resists more.

On the time of Michael the Brave he went to a city with Romano Catholic majority and wanted to built a Church and people wanted Romano Catholic Church and he wanted Eastern Orthodox. So he said, lets build the True Church, whichever it is. Some Romano Catholics said lets debate but Michael the Great said, lets look for a miracle. You prepare Holy water and I ask Eastern orthodox priests to prepare theirs. And we will put these together and after several day we will see and the water resisting more will decide. They waited several days and God sent a sign to one man and he announced Michael the Great that went with all people to Church to open Holy waters. When Romano catholic Holy water was open a stench come and was green. When Eastern orthodox Holy water was open, very clear.

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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2013, 03:28:10 AM »

LOTS OF STUFF

Oh my!

If only he was still around, he would have loved this !!!

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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2013, 03:32:03 AM »

LOTS OF STUFF

Oh my!

If only he was still around, he would have loved this !!!



He had a few favorite topics, holy water was only one of them.
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2013, 03:32:49 AM »

If I were Abp. Nikolaos I'd laugh for days.
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2013, 03:34:10 AM »

If I were Abp. Nikolaos I'd laugh for days.

why? because you know you do not have the holy spirit!?
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2013, 03:35:44 AM »

LOTS OF STUFF

Oh my!

If only he was still around, he would have loved this !!!



He had a few favorite topics, holy water was only one of them.

I searched his name on the internet, apparently a phd in the making for computer science!

Holy Water is an interesting topic. Perhaps I should create a poll on holy water.
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2013, 06:11:50 AM »

Most stupid thing I've read in a while. Please, tell me it's a hoax.
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2013, 09:34:26 AM »

Most stupid thing I've read in a while. Please, tell me it's a hoax.

I'm not too struck by this caper either.
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2013, 11:20:37 AM »

In 2012 this same metropolitan said in an interview with the Serbian FBReporter that he regarded Artimije, formerly bishop of Ras-Prizren, as a canonical bishop. Asked about interfering in the affairs of another church he denied interfering but said he was merely expressing an opinion.

The good metropolitan is well known for his anti-Roman ecclesiology.
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2013, 11:23:01 AM »

Anti-Roman ecclesiology is one thing but this seriously raises the concern of examining him by a psychiatrist.
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2013, 12:35:49 PM »

If I were Abp. Nikolaos I'd laugh for days.

I'd laugh too.  Trial by holy-water-locked-in-a-safe-and-subsequently-examined-after-some-time is no test of faith.  This is a test of faith:



Does Metropolitan Seraphim have enough faith for a trial by fire? 
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2013, 12:36:57 PM »

What is an "anti-Roman ecclesiology"?
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2013, 12:37:50 PM »

What is an "anti-Roman ecclesiology"?

It's a fancy term for hating the Pope, I guess.
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2013, 12:38:50 PM »

What is an "anti-Roman ecclesiology"?

It's a fancy term for hating the Pope, I guess.

It does sound more sophisticated...
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2013, 01:01:55 PM »

As a friend said on FB let the metropolitan put some white phosphorus in the bottle too
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2013, 01:07:31 PM »

It is a serious website and not some onio-like?
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2013, 01:12:01 PM »

Frankly, I think a old fashioned trial by fire would be more exciting.

I'm sorry, I didn't see that you already beat me to the punch! 
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2013, 01:16:54 PM »

I shall follow my late mother's advice regarding what to say when you have nothing good to say about someone:                                  .
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2013, 07:27:41 PM »

I don't know about the freshness longevity of Catholic holy water, but I know from personal experience Orthodox holy water lasts for years. I think I once had a little bit that was at least ten years old before it was used up. And I had other bottles that were at least 4 to 6 years old before they were used up and they were fine as well.

So I think the claim for the longevity of Orthodox holy water is reasonable. That said I think Catholics treat their holy water differently…put it out in basins for people to dip their fingers in. We don't do that. I would not be surprised if holy water used by hundreds of people got a little off.  What I would want to know is the freshness longevity of Catholic holy water just kept in a sealed container, how long that lasts.  Then do a comparison if one wants…not that I think that is necessarily a wise and godly use of blessed items in the Church.
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2013, 07:31:20 PM »

I don't know about the freshness longevity of Catholic holy water, but I know from personal experience Orthodox holy water lasts for years. I think I once had a little bit that was at least ten years old before it was used up. And I had other bottles that were at least 4 to 6 years old before they were used up and they were fine as well.

I can vouch for a bottle of holy water which did not go off even after more than 25 years. The bottle was clear, not colored, glass, and kept on a shelf opposite a window.
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2013, 09:52:36 PM »

It would be a great idea if there was some real need for it other than attention-getting. Are the Latins causing trouble, keeping the Orthodox home on Sundays? No. Is there mass apostasy because of the Latins? No. Would such a happening cause people to give up falsehood for truth? I highly doubt it.

Besides, putting in salt is part of the Western consecration of holy water coming all the way from Orthodox times. Lots of Orthodox think they do this because the water isn't fresh. That is erroneous.
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2013, 09:54:17 PM »

I don't know about the freshness longevity of Catholic holy water, but I know from personal experience Orthodox holy water lasts for years. I think I once had a little bit that was at least ten years old before it was used up. And I had other bottles that were at least 4 to 6 years old before they were used up and they were fine as well.

I can vouch for a bottle of holy water which did not go off even after more than 25 years. The bottle was clear, not colored, glass, and kept on a shelf opposite a window.

Did you have bottles of the same water not blessed actually going bad under the same circumstances? And was it Theophany water or water blessed at some other time? (Apparently, there's some sort of difference.)
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2013, 09:57:52 PM »

Why would two hierarchs agree to do this?
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2013, 09:58:46 PM »

Why would two hierarchs agree to do this?

Because they're in Greece. Unlike in America, they don't golf together, I guess.
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2013, 10:10:30 PM »

Why would two hierarchs agree to do this?

Because they're in Greece. Unlike in America, they don't golf together, I guess.

Heh. That's true about the golf.

But this is a test that they're giving to God. Aren't we not supposed to force signs and miracles?

Also, it's needlessly antagonistic. Since when do we need to prove that someone else is green and smelly in order to affirm that we hold the Truth?
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2013, 10:27:18 PM »

Why would two hierarchs agree to do this?

Because they're in Greece. Unlike in America, they don't golf together, I guess.

Heh. That's true about the golf.

But this is a test that they're giving to God. Aren't we not supposed to force signs and miracles?

Also, it's needlessly antagonistic. Since when do we need to prove that someone else is green and smelly in order to affirm that we hold the Truth?

I don't think it's about testing God at all. More about testing people. The sanctification of water is a frequent event. It's not like they're walking through fire. (I doubt anyone said to St. Patrick that he was testing God then.)

But, yes, it seems pretty theatrical. How about producing saints instead? At least then you have something. Lots of people wanted to follow the Lord after being miraculously fed, but when He told them they should east His flesh, they left Him. The miracle was to get attention for the preaching, but few believed the preaching even though they had witnessed a miracle.
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2013, 10:28:44 PM »

I don't know about the freshness longevity of Catholic holy water, but I know from personal experience Orthodox holy water lasts for years. I think I once had a little bit that was at least ten years old before it was used up. And I had other bottles that were at least 4 to 6 years old before they were used up and they were fine as well.

I can vouch for a bottle of holy water which did not go off even after more than 25 years. The bottle was clear, not colored, glass, and kept on a shelf opposite a window.

Did you have bottles of the same water not blessed actually going bad under the same circumstances? And was it Theophany water or water blessed at some other time? (Apparently, there's some sort of difference.)

The water that comes out of the faucet in my town will go green quite quickly if kept in the same conditions as that bottle of holy water. As for there being a difference in the "holiness" of water blessed according to the Great Blessing or Lesser Blessing service, no, there is no difference. Holy water is holy water.
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2013, 10:30:53 PM »

I don't know about the freshness longevity of Catholic holy water, but I know from personal experience Orthodox holy water lasts for years. I think I once had a little bit that was at least ten years old before it was used up. And I had other bottles that were at least 4 to 6 years old before they were used up and they were fine as well.

I can vouch for a bottle of holy water which did not go off even after more than 25 years. The bottle was clear, not colored, glass, and kept on a shelf opposite a window.

Did you have bottles of the same water not blessed actually going bad under the same circumstances? And was it Theophany water or water blessed at some other time? (Apparently, there's some sort of difference.)

The water that comes out of the faucet in my town will go green quite quickly if kept in the same conditions as that bottle of holy water. As for there being a difference in the "holiness" of water blessed according to the Great Blessing or Lesser Blessing service, no, there is no difference. Holy water is holy water.


I had read that one has a time limit.
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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2013, 10:45:26 PM »

What is an "anti-Roman ecclesiology"?

It means, that you believe the Pope is in fact not a legitimate Bishop, since he is outside the church. obviously.
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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2013, 10:46:49 PM »

I don't know about the freshness longevity of Catholic holy water, but I know from personal experience Orthodox holy water lasts for years. I think I once had a little bit that was at least ten years old before it was used up. And I had other bottles that were at least 4 to 6 years old before they were used up and they were fine as well.

I can vouch for a bottle of holy water which did not go off even after more than 25 years. The bottle was clear, not colored, glass, and kept on a shelf opposite a window.

Did you have bottles of the same water not blessed actually going bad under the same circumstances? And was it Theophany water or water blessed at some other time? (Apparently, there's some sort of difference.)

The water that comes out of the faucet in my town will go green quite quickly if kept in the same conditions as that bottle of holy water. As for there being a difference in the "holiness" of water blessed according to the Great Blessing or Lesser Blessing service, no, there is no difference. Holy water is holy water.


I had read that one has a time limit.

Never come across this in my 50 years in the Church, whether from priest, layman or altarserver. The idea of a "time limit" for holy water, just because the "Lesser Blessing" has been used to bless it, is preposterous. In fact, the Lesser Blessing takes much longer to perform than the Great Blessing.



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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2013, 10:47:32 PM »

If I were Abp. Nikolaos I'd laugh for days.

+1

Now, it would be sad if the Archbishop agreed to it.
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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2013, 10:48:03 PM »

It is a serious website and not some onio-like?

This is serious, here you can read more officially:

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/EBCACD47.el.aspx

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« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2013, 10:51:35 PM »

Why would two hierarchs agree to do this?

They have not agreed, he simply submitted it by letter to him of the challenge. I highly doubt the Catholic will accept the challenge

It seems they have a little fued over the years about various things

Anyway, I think an answer to your question is simple, it would be the same reason people did such things in medieval times, they had faith that their blessings did something.
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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2013, 10:52:15 PM »

Most stupid thing I've read in a while.
+1
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« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2013, 10:54:52 PM »

If I were Abp. Nikolaos I'd laugh for days.

+1

Now, it would be sad if the Archbishop agreed to it.

Why would it be sad? I think it would be interesting. On one side, you could say, both would simply go bad. and then ecumenists would have proof that.. well, whatever they want to say about it. that both are unholy? lol well, I meant to go in the way, if both were sterile smelling, then one could say then that both have the holy spirit, and Metropolitan Seraphim would have made a mistake and realized he was wrong all along and should be ecumenist.

I think it all boils down to whether you think holy water is actually holy or not, or if it is just a historical ritual by ignorant people.
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« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2013, 11:02:44 PM »

+1

Now, it would be sad if the Archbishop agreed to it.

Why would it be sad? I think it would be interesting. On one side, you could say, both would simply go bad. and then ecumenists would have proof that.. well, whatever they want to say about it. that both are unholy? lol well, I meant to go in the way, if both were sterile smelling, then one could say then that both have the holy spirit, and Metropolitan Seraphim would have made a mistake and realized he was wrong all along and should be ecumenist.

I think it all boils down to whether you think holy water is actually holy or not, or if it is just a historical ritual by ignorant people.

I think it really all boils down to whether you think it's okay or not to use God's blessing to show people up because of selfish motivations over a personal feud.
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« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2013, 11:03:26 PM »

These bishops obviously haven't heard of pasadi97.  laugh

Seriously, the passage "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" comes to mind.  Tongue

I was wondering what pasadi might think of this, only he's not around anymore.
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« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2013, 11:05:55 PM »

+1

Now, it would be sad if the Archbishop agreed to it.

Why would it be sad? I think it would be interesting. On one side, you could say, both would simply go bad. and then ecumenists would have proof that.. well, whatever they want to say about it. that both are unholy? lol well, I meant to go in the way, if both were sterile smelling, then one could say then that both have the holy spirit, and Metropolitan Seraphim would have made a mistake and realized he was wrong all along and should be ecumenist.

I think it all boils down to whether you think holy water is actually holy or not, or if it is just a historical ritual by ignorant people.

I think it really all boils down to whether you think it's okay or not to use God's blessing to show people up because of selfish motivations over a personal feud.

This is why I said earlier "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord the God".
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« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2013, 11:08:41 PM »

+1

Now, it would be sad if the Archbishop agreed to it.

Why would it be sad? I think it would be interesting. On one side, you could say, both would simply go bad. and then ecumenists would have proof that.. well, whatever they want to say about it. that both are unholy? lol well, I meant to go in the way, if both were sterile smelling, then one could say then that both have the holy spirit, and Metropolitan Seraphim would have made a mistake and realized he was wrong all along and should be ecumenist.

I think it all boils down to whether you think holy water is actually holy or not, or if it is just a historical ritual by ignorant people.

I think it really all boils down to whether you think it's okay or not to use God's blessing to show people up because of selfish motivations over a personal feud.

Well, the stated reason is to show that the Orthodox holy water is blessed while the Catholic holy water is not. I only said of a possible fued, since in the release he was arguing over the archbishop over whether the greek state should pay clergy.

Do you personally believe that catholic holy water is any different than orthodox holy water?
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« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2013, 11:11:23 PM »

+1

Now, it would be sad if the Archbishop agreed to it.

Why would it be sad? I think it would be interesting. On one side, you could say, both would simply go bad. and then ecumenists would have proof that.. well, whatever they want to say about it. that both are unholy? lol well, I meant to go in the way, if both were sterile smelling, then one could say then that both have the holy spirit, and Metropolitan Seraphim would have made a mistake and realized he was wrong all along and should be ecumenist.

I think it all boils down to whether you think holy water is actually holy or not, or if it is just a historical ritual by ignorant people.

I think it really all boils down to whether you think it's okay or not to use God's blessing to show people up because of selfish motivations over a personal feud.

This is why I said earlier "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord the God".

How is blessing holy water tempting God? Are we tempting God every time we consecrate something, bless something, ask for help? This is a request for God to bless holy water, it is not a tempting for God to intervene to save someone or to perform a miracle
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« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2013, 11:16:26 PM »

+1

Now, it would be sad if the Archbishop agreed to it.

Why would it be sad? I think it would be interesting. On one side, you could say, both would simply go bad. and then ecumenists would have proof that.. well, whatever they want to say about it. that both are unholy? lol well, I meant to go in the way, if both were sterile smelling, then one could say then that both have the holy spirit, and Metropolitan Seraphim would have made a mistake and realized he was wrong all along and should be ecumenist.

I think it all boils down to whether you think holy water is actually holy or not, or if it is just a historical ritual by ignorant people.

I think it really all boils down to whether you think it's okay or not to use God's blessing to show people up because of selfish motivations over a personal feud.

This is why I said earlier "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord the God".

How is blessing holy water tempting God? Are we tempting God every time we consecrate something, bless something, ask for help? This is a request for God to bless holy water, it is not a tempting for God to intervene to save someone or to perform a miracle

The Greek bishop is "throwing down the gauntlet", using the mysteries of the Church as playthings in the service of a cheap stunt, trying to generate a "gotcha" moment. His invoking Prophet Elijah and his destruction of the idolaters is borderline blasphemy. God Himself directed Eljah to set up the contest of the sacrifices, did God tell this bishop to do this "trial by holy water?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 11:17:45 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2013, 11:23:00 PM »

+1

Now, it would be sad if the Archbishop agreed to it.

Why would it be sad? I think it would be interesting. On one side, you could say, both would simply go bad. and then ecumenists would have proof that.. well, whatever they want to say about it. that both are unholy? lol well, I meant to go in the way, if both were sterile smelling, then one could say then that both have the holy spirit, and Metropolitan Seraphim would have made a mistake and realized he was wrong all along and should be ecumenist.

I think it all boils down to whether you think holy water is actually holy or not, or if it is just a historical ritual by ignorant people.

I think it really all boils down to whether you think it's okay or not to use God's blessing to show people up because of selfish motivations over a personal feud.

This is why I said earlier "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord the God".

How is blessing holy water tempting God? Are we tempting God every time we consecrate something, bless something, ask for help? This is a request for God to bless holy water, it is not a tempting for God to intervene to save someone or to perform a miracle

The Greek bishop is "throwing down the gauntlet", using the mysteries of the Church as playthings in the service of a cheap stunt, trying to generate a "gotcha" moment. His invoking Prophet Elijah and his destruction of the idolaters is borderline blasphemy. God Himself directed Eljah to set up the contest of the sacrifices, did God tell this bishop to do this "trial by holy water?

I don't know, he did not say. But I do not think it is a cheap stunt to bless water and to show that it is not corrupted
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 11:23:18 PM by Gunnarr » Logged

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