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Author Topic: Dancing on the Apostles' grave  (Read 1112 times) Average Rating: 0
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William
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« on: June 06, 2012, 06:03:23 PM »

Not literally.

To make a long story short, right now I'm in Rome on a trip with my high school choir. Today we visited the Franciscan Church of the Twelve Apostles on the spot of the church built by Sts. Constantine and Sylvester for the relics of the Apostles James the Less and Philip. I loved the opportunity to pray at their tomb. Anyway my school choir decided to stand behind the high altar right smack dab on top of the crypt and sing our school's alma mater. I was mad. Should I have been? I don't want to be a Pharisee but I also don't want to be a super liberal, irreverent post-modernist with no sense of the sacred.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 06:04:13 PM by William » Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2012, 06:52:46 PM »

Forgive them for they know not what they do.
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WeldeMikael
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2012, 07:20:46 PM »

I think even if you DO try to tell them, they won't hear.  Embarrassed

So I agree with Αριστοκλής


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akimori makoto
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2012, 07:29:29 PM »

Not literally.

To make a long story short, right now I'm in Rome on a trip with my high school choir. Today we visited the Franciscan Church of the Twelve Apostles on the spot of the church built by Sts. Constantine and Sylvester for the relics of the Apostles James the Less and Philip. I loved the opportunity to pray at their tomb. Anyway my school choir decided to stand behind the high altar right smack dab on top of the crypt and sing our school's alma mater. I was mad. Should I have been? I don't want to be a Pharisee but I also don't want to be a super liberal, irreverent post-modernist with no sense of the sacred.

It would never have been done on/in some sacred Australian Aboriginal site or Shinto grove.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2012, 08:11:05 PM »

Can you share privately with your choir director that such behaviour lessens the experience of visiting these sites for you? Be ready to suggest that your choir can sing in a more neutral location such as a park.
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2012, 11:46:37 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

That is precisely why I have always been personally uncomfortable with relics and tombs in the Church.  The Church is not exclusively a cemetery, there are plenty of joyful moments in our churches.  However, I'm sure the Saints are good enough people to be able to enjoy a good dance now and then Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2012, 12:22:55 PM »

Not literally.

To make a long story short, right now I'm in Rome on a trip with my high school choir. Today we visited the Franciscan Church of the Twelve Apostles on the spot of the church built by Sts. Constantine and Sylvester for the relics of the Apostles James the Less and Philip. I loved the opportunity to pray at their tomb. Anyway my school choir decided to stand behind the high altar right smack dab on top of the crypt and sing our school's alma mater. I was mad. Should I have been? I don't want to be a Pharisee but I also don't want to be a super liberal, irreverent post-modernist with no sense of the sacred.

It's not about being a Pharisee or a liberal, it's about wanting respect to be shown and what was done was just weird.
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2012, 12:47:26 PM »

I would not have been mad, I just would not have participated, and when the question of why comes out, explain it.

They might not even realize it afterall.

PP
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2012, 02:42:40 PM »

violently argue with those brats.people can be put at their place only through violence and fear.
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2012, 03:25:51 PM »

violently argue with those brats.people can be put at their place only through violence and fear.

troll much?
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William
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2012, 04:35:51 PM »

So I didn't say a word...

I feel like I did something morally wrong. Maybe even sinful. Isn't warning sinners a virtue? Didn't Christ get a whip and drive people out of His Temple?

I don't get it. All the atheists on the trip had no problem loudly pontificating about their beliefs right outside of churches but I never said anything about mine. I need to be more assertive...
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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2012, 05:58:25 PM »

So I didn't say a word...

I feel like I did something morally wrong. Maybe even sinful. Isn't warning sinners a virtue? Didn't Christ get a whip and drive people out of His Temple?

I don't get it. All the atheists on the trip had no problem loudly pontificating about their beliefs right outside of churches but I never said anything about mine. I need to be more assertive...

One needs balance. Indeed, we should always be prepared to defend our faith intellectually if needed, in fact, the New Testament orders it. However, we should not go out of our way looking for an argument because argumentation will not really bring people to Christ. Argument only works if the person has already showed an interest in Christ and is thus willing to learn from the argument. But most atheists do not have a desire. They only care about winning the argument and will change their position several times or launch countless ad hominem's against you without even listening to what you have to say.

But, if you really have a desire to debate with atheists anyway, because the moment will indeed come up when you will need to, follow these guidelines. Ask them questions. Too often we go on the defensive and they ask us their questions as if we are the ones who have something to prove to them. But they are the ones who are criticizing our beliefs, so ask them the questions instead and go on the offensive. For example, 'how do you reconcile this in a godless world?' or 'This? How can you have this at all in a godless world?' etc. Attack their foundations because atheists have absolutely no foundation for anything that they advocate. They advocate deeper understanding of humanity, ethics and love, yet they deny all spiritualism and reduce us to animals. They demand reason and logic yet they live in a chaotic, deterministic random world. See the contradictions? Point them out.

Also, avoid 'neutral ground' because there is no neutral ground with atheists and Christians. You either believe in God or you do not believe in Him. How can anyone be neutral about that? When an atheist asks you to be neutral it usually just means that they are asking you to abandon your belief in God and engage them in philosophical discussion based off of their worldview. And if you adopt their worldview, then of course they are going to beat you. God is the center of our worldview and all of our philosophy is based on belief in God. How can there be neutral ground?

There are indeed many times though when you will run into an honest, humble atheist that really is interested in our beliefs and would consider them and listen to them provided we listen to their beliefs. In these cases, I suggest respectfully listening to what they have to say and then explain to them how God ties into it. For example, many atheists like this have a keen interest in empirical logic. So maybe try to politely explain to them how God relates to reason and how we believe that God is needed for reason to even be possible.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 06:04:05 PM by JamesR » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2012, 06:02:16 PM »

Not literally.

To make a long story short, right now I'm in Rome on a trip with my high school choir. Today we visited the Franciscan Church of the Twelve Apostles on the spot of the church built by Sts. Constantine and Sylvester for the relics of the Apostles James the Less and Philip. I loved the opportunity to pray at their tomb. Anyway my school choir decided to stand behind the high altar right smack dab on top of the crypt and sing our school's alma mater. I was mad. Should I have been? I don't want to be a Pharisee but I also don't want to be a super liberal, irreverent post-modernist with no sense of the sacred.

What were any of you doing behind the altar in the first place, crypt or no crypt?
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2012, 06:23:51 PM »

Not literally.

To make a long story short, right now I'm in Rome on a trip with my high school choir. Today we visited the Franciscan Church of the Twelve Apostles on the spot of the church built by Sts. Constantine and Sylvester for the relics of the Apostles James the Less and Philip. I loved the opportunity to pray at their tomb. Anyway my school choir decided to stand behind the high altar right smack dab on top of the crypt and sing our school's alma mater. I was mad. Should I have been? I don't want to be a Pharisee but I also don't want to be a super liberal, irreverent post-modernist with no sense of the sacred.
I like the idea someone else posted that you could simply refuse to join your choir in doing such a thing and explain to your choir director afterward why you refused. You're not rebuking your choir for sinning or pulling out a whip to "drive them out of the Temple", an action they may not understand, anyway. You're merely standing up for your beliefs and refusing to join in some activity that makes you feel uncomfortable. Address your choir director in a non-confrontational manner and take personal responsibility for protecting your own conscience, and he will most likely at least understand and respect you for standing up for your beliefs. If he recognizes on his own, through your non-judgmental witness, that what he and your choir did was wrong, then that's even better.
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2012, 06:30:13 PM »

Forgive them for they know not what they do.
I need to memorize this.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 06:30:25 PM by Achronos » Logged

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William
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2012, 10:24:18 PM »

I'm not in the choir, so nobody noticed when I did not join in.
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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2012, 10:39:12 PM »

I'm not in the choir, so nobody noticed when I did not join in.
Well, then, if you were a chaperone, then you probably had the authority to tell the choir director that what his choir was doing was a bad idea.
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William
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2012, 10:41:55 PM »

Nope, I'm a student. The trip was open to students but it was primarily for the choir.
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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2012, 08:41:05 PM »

Not literally.

To make a long story short, right now I'm in Rome on a trip with my high school choir. Today we visited the Franciscan Church of the Twelve Apostles on the spot of the church built by Sts. Constantine and Sylvester for the relics of the Apostles James the Less and Philip. I loved the opportunity to pray at their tomb. Anyway my school choir decided to stand behind the high altar right smack dab on top of the crypt and sing our school's alma mater. I was mad. Should I have been? I don't want to be a Pharisee but I also don't want to be a super liberal, irreverent post-modernist with no sense of the sacred.

What were any of you doing behind the altar in the first place, crypt or no crypt?

If only this question was as appropriate and obvious to "western" minds as it is to our own.
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The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2012, 12:51:31 PM »

Why in the world did they start do that?  Grin
Do you think the Apostles care?  Grin Sounds like they played a joke on your friends.
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2012, 03:02:59 PM »

Isn't this a moot question, since the heresy of the Latins has robbed these relics and altars of all salvific grace?
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 07:15:51 PM »

Isn't this a moot question, since the heresy of the Latins has robbed these relics and altars of all salvific grace?

Not the relics of Orthodox saints. As for altars, I've never heard of grace-filled altars.
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2012, 08:34:20 AM »

Isn't this a moot question, since the heresy of the Latins has robbed these relics and altars of all salvific grace?
What about ordinary respect and good manners?
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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2012, 09:47:11 AM »

Sorry guys. I was poking-joking.
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2012, 05:24:53 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Isn't this a moot question, since the heresy of the Latins has robbed these relics and altars of all salvific grace?

Not the relics of Orthodox saints. As for altars, I've never heard of grace-filled altars.

Our altar is so sacred, that only ordained clergies can go into the Makdes during Services, indeed at anytime, period.  Perhaps only if the Tabot altar slab is removed, but even then, the taboo is strongly engrained.  We are building a new altar at our new building, and it isn't consecrated yet so laity can check it out.  We all felt a bit weird, like we shouldn't have been there, even though it was a perfectly harmless and ordinary building before the consecration occurs.  After all, the altar is considered as sacred as the Ark of the Covenant.  Sure, we might be able to go in there, but who really wants to be the Uzzah guinea  pig?



stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 05:25:49 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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