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Author Topic: Should I destroy this icon?  (Read 6044 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 20, 2012, 08:55:54 PM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?
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« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2012, 09:14:21 PM »

Ugh, filthy. Burn it, seriously.

I know that might sound kinda overboard but what goes in the trash doesn't always make it to destruction and someone might fish it out or something.
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« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2012, 09:15:50 PM »

What do the scrolls say?
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« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 09:31:57 PM »

I'm not sure what the scrolls say, but the artist's description in the link you provided seems to be about the love between Jonathan and David (a non-sexual love) being a support for homosexual Christians seeking to remain within the Christian tradition (i.e., not engage in sexual relations with other men).
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« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 09:32:22 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 09:34:09 PM »

What do the scrolls say?

Just curious to see the answer if anyone posts it.
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 09:53:25 PM »

What do the scrolls say?

Just curious to see the answer if anyone posts it.

me too, my natural inclination was to say moi aussi but I am not not sure how that would be interpreted.
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2012, 10:01:07 PM »

I think David's says, "How wonderful was your love for me," and Jonathan's says, "Keep the sacred promise you made to me".

It's a whole lot of rubbish based on modern Western culture's abject fear of same-sex affection, and hence misinterpretation as homoerotic—affection that is rather common in the East, with no homosexual connotations.

Anyway, it's not an icon because it does not portray Orthodox theology, and I'd just toss it in the trash.
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« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2012, 10:09:49 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?

Look at who you are asking the question to. We can drop bombs on innocent civilians in other countries but can't write the F word on the side of the same plane dropping the bombs.

Double standards abound my friend.
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« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2012, 10:10:32 PM »

It's a whole lot of rubbish based on modern Western culture's abject fear of same-sex affection, and hence misinterpretation as homoerotic
I've heard that misconception raised about an icon of Ss. Peter and Paul giving each other the kiss of peace.
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« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2012, 10:15:28 PM »

It's a whole lot of rubbish based on modern Western culture's abject fear of same-sex affection, and hence misinterpretation as homoerotic
I've heard that misconception raised about an icon of Ss. Peter and Paul giving each other the kiss of peace.

Even better, that Peter and Paul "faked" their dispute as to be a didactic exercise.

Nick can give you the sources for such teachings.

It's hilarious.
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2012, 10:20:19 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?
The murderous adulterer repented of his murder and adultery (Psalm 50/51).

The text doesn't fit a homoerotic interpretation, but as you say it is not the point of the story. Unless one has an agenda claiming that history has been "straightened" out.
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« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2012, 10:25:27 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?
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« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2012, 10:27:57 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Sell them or give them away.

Burning books was dumb after the advent of the printing press.

Burn mass market paperbacks is really stupid.

We all going to get together and delete all our Satanic mp3s around a fire?
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2012, 10:28:17 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Throw them away, do you parents check under your bed to make sure they are still there?
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2012, 10:29:39 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?
Look at who you are asking the question to. We can drop bombs on innocent civilians in other countries but can't write the F word on the side of the same plane dropping the bombs.

Double standards abound my friend.

It's not so much the implied homosexuality (which I don't believe belongs there and is an issue, just not the big issue at hand), but what it says about the implied homosexuality and how that compares to Church teaching. Everyone acknowledges that David's murderous adultery existed without defending, supporting, advocating, or sanctifying such behavior. We have numerous saints who are known for engaging in behavior that the Church does not teach to be proper behavior (murder, sexual misconduct, etc). Despite any participation in such behavior, our saints have been made holy by God and are His saints, but the sanctifying of the person does not mean the sanctifying of any improper behavior performed by those saints.
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2012, 10:31:04 PM »

I disagree with some of the posts above that speak against burning them. You're a teenager. Burning is what you do best. Embrace your inner fire-starter! Own that fire!

Or, if not, possibly donate them to the library or a used book store or something. No one uses those any more, so it's win-win: you haven't destroyed them, but no one will read them.
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2012, 10:33:16 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Integrate them into your personal collection of books and then just not get around to reading them.
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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2012, 10:36:56 PM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Canonically speaking, it is not an Icon, because it is not based on a traditional type. That being said, it is not necessarily bad. You will have to decide whether you can use it or not.

Maybe you could use it to prop up a table.
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2012, 10:38:02 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?

as far as I know the scripture endorses the relationship between David and Jonathan and portrays it in a positive light. If it indeed were a homosexual relationship then that would be tantamount to saying that the scriptures endorse homosexuality.
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2012, 10:39:01 PM »

I disagree with some of the posts above that speak against burning them. You're a teenager. Burning is what you do best. Embrace your inner fire-starter! Own that fire!

Or, if not, possibly donate them to the library or a used book store or something. No one uses those any more, so it's win-win: you haven't destroyed them, but no one will read them.

I second both these suggestions. Just don't blow yourself up.
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2012, 10:41:11 PM »

I think i only read one, but those left behind books were fascinating. (at least as a kid... maybe not now)

too bad theyre read as theology books.
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2012, 10:49:54 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked
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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2012, 10:53:39 PM »


I would not toss that image in the trash, only because Christ is depicted on it...therefore, I recommend burning it.

The only reason you would have an icon, is to venerate the saints, pray to them for intercession, etc.  What does this painting depict?  What benefit does it give to the soul?  ....or does it just spark controversy and doubt?

If it's not beneficial to the soul, get rid of it.
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2012, 10:55:56 PM »

Well I've decided I'll take everyone's advice and keep those books hidden on my book shelf where I will never read them and then one day when my parents are not around and stop caring about them, it is off to the fire with that heresy.
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2012, 11:02:46 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Or read them; they really aren't too terribly bad for modern novels.
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2012, 11:25:14 PM »

I think David's says, "How wonderful was your love for me," and Jonathan's says, "Keep the sacred promise you made to me".

It's a whole lot of rubbish based on modern Western culture's abject fear of same-sex affection, and hence misinterpretation as homoerotic—affection that is rather common in the East, with no homosexual connotations.

Anyway, it's not an icon because it does not portray Orthodox theology, and I'd just toss it in the trash.
You sure have a sharp eye ! That's exactly what it says.
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2012, 11:27:06 PM »


Or, if not, possibly donate them to the library or a used book store or something. No one uses those any more, so it's win-win: you haven't destroyed them, but no one will read them.

Sometimes I wake up in the morning thinking that I must have died and that I am in some sort of alternative reality. There is nothing I can do about that, so I just ignore it. I like used book stores and I also like perusing what arrives at the Salvation Army thrift shop. In your defense this does not mean I always read them once I buy them, or ever read them. For example, Conversational Chinese by Ssu-yu Teng, U. Chicago Press, 1947. I did make it half way through the teach yourself Esperanto book.
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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2012, 02:03:43 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!
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« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2012, 02:29:12 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.
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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2012, 04:43:26 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2012, 05:40:58 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
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« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2012, 06:05:47 AM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension. So, this is the problem; should I sell the books or burn them? On the one hand, if I sell them I can make money to add to my charity fund, but then I risk ruining and misleading the salvation of some other person, while on the other hand if I burn them, my parents will think I am fanatical, I will make no money, but at least no one will get mislead by them. Thoughts?

Sell them or give them away.

Burning books was dumb after the advent of the printing press.

Burn mass market paperbacks is really stupid.

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« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2012, 06:52:52 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

I would disagree.

From the dictionary, an icon is: a representation of some sacred personage, as Christ or a saint or angel, painted usually on a wood surface and venerated itself as sacred.

This is a piece of politico-social propaganda, just like the old Soviet posters.  It would even be a far reach to call it religious "art", as it does not support the religious beliefs, of the Faith it is trying imitate.

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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2012, 07:14:52 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

To be fair, James, LBK never said anything about tossing it out, she recommended burning it. Honestly, I would consider burning an icon like that too.
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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2012, 08:48:56 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

I would disagree.

From the dictionary, an icon is: a representation of some sacred personage, as Christ or a saint or angel, painted usually on a wood surface and venerated itself as sacred.

This is a piece of politico-social propaganda, just like the old Soviet posters.  It would even be a far reach to call it religious "art", as it does not support the religious beliefs, of the Faith it is trying imitate.



Well said, Liza. These wayward images do not even express the teachings of these artists' own Roman Catholic faith  - they are, as you said, propaganda pieces, personal statements. To use iconography as a vehicle to promote a cause is completely unacceptable and shameful, even worse when done so by self-proclaimed "master iconographers". The spiritual damage that these men are capable of causing through the dissemination of their heretical and blasphemous paintings cannot be underestimated.
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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2012, 10:06:40 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
Are you well enough versed in the Orthodox tradition of iconography to assert that in a debate with someone who has spent most of her life studying the subject?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 10:10:55 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2012, 11:20:55 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

You should send it to LBK.
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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2012, 11:40:40 AM »


She would just burn it....so, save yourself the shipping charges and burn it yourself.
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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2012, 11:58:47 AM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.
O-W-N?

The problem here is that Christ is portrayed as he should, and nothing is wrong with the protrayal of either David nor Jonathan, just the interpretation being read into it.

I wouldn't buy this

for veneration, but I wouldn't stomp on it either.
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« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2012, 12:18:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

Amen! Censorship is cowardice.



Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?

Agreed completely.  In our sunday school lesson this past Sunday we talked about the Bible and its function. Literature is how we reflect and understand ourselves.  We read Shakespeare to find meaning and understanding to the human experience.  We understand romance through Rome and Juliet, we understand politics through Julius Caesar, we understand familial relationships through MacBeth..  The Bible is literature just like that, and it also reflects perfectly the human experience.  When we engage in the Bible, we engage with our internal selves and make sense of the world.  The problem? The Fathers rightfully observed that human beings are fractured and broken by sin.  So our literature naturally reflects our breaks, and so we can only partially understand ourselves through broken literature, just as we can only partially see through cracked lenses on a pair of glasses.  However the Bible is the inspired word of God.  The Bible not only reflects our weaknesses through the human experience, but the Grace of God.  We read it to find our real selves as made in the image of God.  The catch, just like literature we must deeply engage the text.  Too many people overlook the most serious character flaws in the major figures of the Bible. This defeats the purpose.  David was as you said an adulterous murderer, and we are supposed to catch that. Why did Moses flee into the wilderness? Oh right, for killing a man. How do we even get the Davidic line where Our Lady descended from? Oh right, the Patriarch Judah thought he was sleeping with a prostitute when I slept with Tamar.  When we read of these people, we can't just highlight their virtues while forgetting their serious flaws.  Agreed then, we should all be more concerned with other aspects of King David than the potentiality for pseudo-homoerotic relationships, which in the scheme of things is inconsequential to the other glaring flaws and shortcomings.  The point of including these? The demonstrate the love and mercy of God.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2012, 12:25:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

Amen! Censorship is cowardice.

Acts 19:1-20

A good, old-fashioned book burning might be what is keeping you from truly spreading the word of God. Why do you stand against God?
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« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2012, 12:31:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Acts 19:1-20

A good, old-fashioned book burning might be what is keeping you from truly spreading the word of God. Why do you stand against God?



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2012, 12:35:52 PM »

FWIW, what their scrolls say are actual Bible verses:

Jonathan's is from 1 Samuel 20:14 (specifically from the Good News Translation, which seems to translate covenant as "sacred promise").

David's is from 2 Samuel 1:26.
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« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2012, 02:09:49 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.
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« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2012, 02:12:30 PM »


She would just burn it....so, save yourself the shipping charges and burn it yourself.

Yes, but she might have a barbecue and invite us over.
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« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2012, 02:30:34 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

WIN!
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« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2012, 05:24:52 PM »

The question here is begged whether it is an icon.

That aside, I have no problem with exegesis of Jonathan's and David's relationship being homoerotic. One could read the text in a variety of ways. It doesn't have much bearing really.

Being an murderous adulter should give us less pause than a possible participant in a homoerotic relationship?

 Therein lies the problem. A man finds a kindred spirit and feels close to him, and perverts turn it into something homosexual because thats all they can see from it.

 I have a few Marine buddies that Ive probably had a spiritual bond closer than women Ive been with in some senses.  Guys Id take a bullet for without even thinking about it. Im not interested in them physically in anyway shape or form and it is sick to even think of such things, and an insult to the brotherly love that is preached throughout the Gospel by reducing it to homosexual lust. Its even sicker to be sympathetic towards such sinful attitudes, and no you cant read it a variety of ways unless you are a protestant or are intentionally undermining the true Spirit of Scripture. Hence blaspheming. No ancient would have read it as a homosexual relationship. Only those who wish to undermine the Word and his Truth by a direct attack or general relativism would say this. 
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« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2012, 07:33:28 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

Amen! Censorship is cowardice.

Acts 19:1-20

A good, old-fashioned book burning might be what is keeping you from truly spreading the word of God. Why do you stand against God?

Asteriktos, I get what you mean, and I love the way you said it. heard that argument plenty of times, with all due respect to everyone, it strikes me as one of the woes of fundamentalism and I don't mean only the protestant kind either.
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« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2012, 08:24:11 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

to address the first question, I believe in writing another book refuting the book deemed harmful and heretical. I am aware of the kind of battle we are engaged in. Lucefer is actively working in disseminating ideas to capture and enslave the will of the human person, having in mind the death of the soul by separating it from God. Evil is very much present in our every day struggles. the burning of books containing his ideas will neither stop nor deter his ideas, on the other hand the refuting of his ideas with the Truth( in words and action) will do the job marvelously! falsehood is destroyed by Truth, the fires of this world will not stop neither truth nor falsehood, they are not capable to do neither in my opinion. infact they might lend an intensity of focus to those ideas one seeks to destroy via fire so the act might backfire on the intention.

I am willing to agree to disagree on this point. However I am merely trying to present how I look at the issue and its related effect. I have no wish to elevate the issue more than it is relevant to the point I am making suffice it to say that I believe in the effectiveness of  battling ideas that are potentially fatal with ideas equally fatal to them.

 I have accepted as gifts certain items from acquaintances of different faiths and traditions, i kept some as I have kept some collectables  since none of them pretended to be of Orthodox Faith and Tradition. had they pretended to be of such nature, I would have handled those items as I would handle damaged icons, and holy items, I will burn them in reverence that is keeping with their correct original purpose. that seems to me what you have done to the Jesus Prayer rug, whatever that may be, you gave it the proper disposal of damaged icon and such.

The above Icon,distortes the historical as well as theological truth of Orthodoxy, while it pretends to convey orthodox theology of brotherly love. it has been damaged, and we have a way to dispose such items that bear the Holy Name. had it been a Hindu or some other art, I would have no problem of keeping it, as their idea. however Orthodox Theology must remain Orthodox in its fidelity to Truth. what is not mine should not be advertised as one.


 Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2012, 08:39:26 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

to address the first question, I believe in writing another book refuting the book deemed harmful and heretical. I am aware of the kind of battle we are engaged in. Lucefer is actively working in disseminating ideas to capture and enslave the will of the human person, having in mind the death of the soul by separating it from God. Evil is very much present in our every day struggles. the burning of books containing his ideas will neither stop nor deter his ideas, on the other hand the refuting of his ideas with the Truth( in words and action) will do the job marvelously! falsehood is destroyed by Truth, the fires of this world will not stop neither truth nor falsehood, they are not capable to do neither in my opinion. infact they might lend an intensity of focus to those ideas one seeks to destroy via fire so the act might backfire on the intention.

I am willing to agree to disagree on this point. However I am merely trying to present how I look at the issue and its related effect. I have no wish to elevate the issue more than it is relevant to the point I am making suffice it to say that I believe in the effectiveness of  battling ideas that are potentially fatal with ideas equally fatal to them.

 I have accepted as gifts certain items from acquaintances of different faiths and traditions, i kept some as I have kept some collectables  since none of them pretended to be of Orthodox Faith and Tradition. had they pretended to be of such nature, I would have handled those items as I would handle damaged icons, and holy items, I will burn them in reverence that is keeping with their correct original purpose. that seems to me what you have done to the Jesus Prayer rug, whatever that may be, you gave it the proper disposal of damaged icon and such.

The above Icon,distortes the historical as well as theological truth of Orthodoxy, while it pretends to convey orthodox theology of brotherly love. it has been damaged, and we have a way to dispose such items that bear the Holy Name. had it been a Hindu or some other art, I would have no problem of keeping it, as their idea. however Orthodox Theology must remain Orthodox in its fidelity to Truth. what is not mine should not be advertised as one.


 Smiley

I think we agree more than we disagree. I had a friend who was into magic. When he became Orthodox, he burned his books--and I would certainly agree with that, especially as it accords with tradition. However, the zeal for truth is a more purifying fire, which is more effective than burning the books in the magic section of the bookstore. The battle is in the heart and mind. Get those, and the word and image will decay on their own without material fire.
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« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2012, 08:52:36 PM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

to address the first question, I believe in writing another book refuting the book deemed harmful and heretical. I am aware of the kind of battle we are engaged in. Lucefer is actively working in disseminating ideas to capture and enslave the will of the human person, having in mind the death of the soul by separating it from God. Evil is very much present in our every day struggles. the burning of books containing his ideas will neither stop nor deter his ideas, on the other hand the refuting of his ideas with the Truth( in words and action) will do the job marvelously! falsehood is destroyed by Truth, the fires of this world will not stop neither truth nor falsehood, they are not capable to do neither in my opinion. infact they might lend an intensity of focus to those ideas one seeks to destroy via fire so the act might backfire on the intention.

I am willing to agree to disagree on this point. However I am merely trying to present how I look at the issue and its related effect. I have no wish to elevate the issue more than it is relevant to the point I am making suffice it to say that I believe in the effectiveness of  battling ideas that are potentially fatal with ideas equally fatal to them.

 I have accepted as gifts certain items from acquaintances of different faiths and traditions, i kept some as I have kept some collectables  since none of them pretended to be of Orthodox Faith and Tradition. had they pretended to be of such nature, I would have handled those items as I would handle damaged icons, and holy items, I will burn them in reverence that is keeping with their correct original purpose. that seems to me what you have done to the Jesus Prayer rug, whatever that may be, you gave it the proper disposal of damaged icon and such.

The above Icon,distortes the historical as well as theological truth of Orthodoxy, while it pretends to convey orthodox theology of brotherly love. it has been damaged, and we have a way to dispose such items that bear the Holy Name. had it been a Hindu or some other art, I would have no problem of keeping it, as their idea. however Orthodox Theology must remain Orthodox in its fidelity to Truth. what is not mine should not be advertised as one.


 Smiley

I think we agree more than we disagree. I had a friend who was into magic. When he became Orthodox, he burned his books--and I would certainly agree with that, especially as it accords with tradition. However, the zeal for truth is a more purifying fire, which is more effective than burning the books in the magic section of the bookstore. The battle is in the heart and mind. Get those, and the word and image will decay on their own without material fire.

Wonderfully stated, and I couldn't agree more. such is the spirit of the tradition of burning books, by new converts of certain crafts, not what the fundamentals make it to be by reading only the letter and ignoring the spirit. the rest of what you said is quite beautiful!
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« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2012, 08:59:55 PM »

Glory be to Our Lord Jesus Christ!
I was at a flea market today and bought a very beautiful icon of two male saints with the Lord Jesus Christ above them. After I bought the icon I began read what was written on the scrolls the Saints were holding and I was scandalized ! I searched the icon online and discovered that it depicted Jonathan and David, and that it was painted by the notorious Robert Lentz, a man whose "icons" are used to make political statements.
Here is the "icon" I got
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/jonathan-and-david-10th-century-bc
After reading the description of the icon I don't what to do . Should  I throw away the "icon" in the trash ? Burn it?

Have no qualms in burning this rubbish. Robert Lentz, and his fellow homosexual apologist William Hart McNichols, have painted a lot of this sort of thing. They use the artistic forms of iconography (even to the point of proclaiming themselves "master iconographers" - disgraceful!!) to further their pet sociopolitical and ecclesiopolitical causes. Avoid their works like the plague!

Or I could avoid insane religious extremism like the plague.

Would you call the painting of the Holy Trinity as a trio of multiracial women a proper icon? Christ as a dark-shinned woman, complete with the O-W-N halo? A bespectacled JRR Tolkien as a saint, puffing on his pipe? Christ as a pagan horned god? Methinks the religious extremism tag belongs to the artists who paint these blasphemies.

Firstly, yes, I would call those icons because all the term means is image.  Would they be Orthodox icons?  No.  However, I'd note that the icon you said should be tossed out is simply of Jonathan and David, both righteous men of the Old Testament.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it.
Are you well enough versed in the Orthodox tradition of iconography to assert that in a debate with someone who has spent most of her life studying the subject?

She has shown absolutely no reason to believe this image of Jonathan and David is ANYTHING other than acceptable.  She has merely claimed that the artist is a "homosexual apologist," whatever that is, and therefore this must be trash.  As has been pointed out, the scrolls contain Biblical verses.  Further, Jonathan and David were AT LEAST as close as any other paired saints, were they not?  So doesn't it make sense to have them on the same icon?  As well, the description of this icon by the artist seems to strongly suggest that a homosexual man could draw strength from the non-sexual relationship of David and Jonathan, in his attempt to refrain from gay sex. 

Until LBK can point out reasons why this icon is unsuitable, I can only assume she has no basis for her views and is therefore not drawing on any experience she has with iconography.
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« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2012, 09:22:36 PM »

James, please look at the following:

https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/sts-sergius-and-bacchus-martyred-c-303
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/sts-boris-and-george-hungarian
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/harvey-milk-san-francisco-1930-1978
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/we-wha-zuni-1849-1896

Then, tell us whether or not Robert Lentz is a homosexual apologist, and whether or not he is a master iconographer whose works are worthy of veneration.
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« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2012, 09:37:53 PM »


And this has to do with the icon in the OP, how?
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« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2012, 09:45:34 PM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2012, 09:46:36 PM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.

I understand that; but I really have never seen a good reason as to why.
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« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2012, 10:00:00 PM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.

I understand that; but I really have never seen a good reason as to why.

Because of how icons were traditionally made, and should still be made--with prayer and fasting and obedience. Even today's printed copies are still based on the prayer, fasting, and obedience of the painted originals, even if they're pasted to wood by some swami in Rajastan.
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« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2012, 11:26:31 PM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.

I understand that; but I really have never seen a good reason as to why.

Because of how icons were traditionally made, and should still be made--with prayer and fasting and obedience. Even today's printed copies are still based on the prayer, fasting, and obedience of the painted originals, even if they're pasted to wood by some swami in Rajastan.

But what makes the icon holy, the person who makes it or the one who uses it for fervent prayer?
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« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2012, 12:23:59 AM »

I am fanatical about the words book and burning being in the same sentence. if you do not want them find a fun of those books and give them let them do what they will with it, donate them back to a library, better still follow Melodist's advise and keep them where you will never get around to read them again, that's what I do with some books i regretted reading. But for heaven sakes do not burn books. its one of those things I am irrational about!  Shocked

But if the content of the books is actually harmful or heretical?

We once got something in the mail from psycho-Protestants called the Jesus Faith Bible Prayer Rug. It was a weird picture of Jesus that you were supposed to stare at and the eyes would open, and then you were supposed to put it under your pillow. Instead. we burned it outside. It produced green smoke. We chanted the stichera of the holy fathers, and doused the ashes in holy water. God 1, Satan 0.

to address the first question, I believe in writing another book refuting the book deemed harmful and heretical. I am aware of the kind of battle we are engaged in. Lucefer is actively working in disseminating ideas to capture and enslave the will of the human person, having in mind the death of the soul by separating it from God. Evil is very much present in our every day struggles. the burning of books containing his ideas will neither stop nor deter his ideas, on the other hand the refuting of his ideas with the Truth( in words and action) will do the job marvelously! falsehood is destroyed by Truth, the fires of this world will not stop neither truth nor falsehood, they are not capable to do neither in my opinion. infact they might lend an intensity of focus to those ideas one seeks to destroy via fire so the act might backfire on the intention.

I am willing to agree to disagree on this point. However I am merely trying to present how I look at the issue and its related effect. I have no wish to elevate the issue more than it is relevant to the point I am making suffice it to say that I believe in the effectiveness of  battling ideas that are potentially fatal with ideas equally fatal to them.

 I have accepted as gifts certain items from acquaintances of different faiths and traditions, i kept some as I have kept some collectables  since none of them pretended to be of Orthodox Faith and Tradition. had they pretended to be of such nature, I would have handled those items as I would handle damaged icons, and holy items, I will burn them in reverence that is keeping with their correct original purpose. that seems to me what you have done to the Jesus Prayer rug, whatever that may be, you gave it the proper disposal of damaged icon and such.

The above Icon,distortes the historical as well as theological truth of Orthodoxy, while it pretends to convey orthodox theology of brotherly love. it has been damaged, and we have a way to dispose such items that bear the Holy Name. had it been a Hindu or some other art, I would have no problem of keeping it, as their idea. however Orthodox Theology must remain Orthodox in its fidelity to Truth. what is not mine should not be advertised as one.


 Smiley

I think we agree more than we disagree. I had a friend who was into magic. When he became Orthodox, he burned his books--and I would certainly agree with that, especially as it accords with tradition. However, the zeal for truth is a more purifying fire, which is more effective than burning the books in the magic section of the bookstore. The battle is in the heart and mind. Get those, and the word and image will decay on their own without material fire.

 Well I dont think he should have burned them....  

 He should have sold them to his D&D buddies, and then used the money to buy some Icons and Orthodox literature.  
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 12:26:39 AM by KShaft » Logged
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« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2012, 01:54:57 AM »

Quote
But what makes the icon holy, the person who makes it or the one who uses it for fervent prayer?

The spiritual condition and intent of the painter forms a great part of the holiness or otherwise of the icon. An artist who does not submit to what the Church teaches and espouses cannot paint a worthy icon, no matter how "beautiful" the end result might be. Orthodox iconographers are not immune from the egotism of self-expression overriding church teachings, of the subjective overtaking the objective. The image known as The Ark of Salvation, discussed elsewhere on this forum, is a case in point, a propaganda piece painted by a skilled hand. Another example is Fr Stamatios Skliris, an Orthodox priest who has painted some truly execrable images he calls icons. His St Nicholas the Helmsman and St Andrew Just Prior to His Martyrdom are typical examples of this willful approach.
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« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2012, 01:56:31 AM »

I think she's saying the source of the icon needs to be considered.

I understand that; but I really have never seen a good reason as to why.

Because of how icons were traditionally made, and should still be made--with prayer and fasting and obedience. Even today's printed copies are still based on the prayer, fasting, and obedience of the painted originals, even if they're pasted to wood by some swami in Rajastan.

But what makes the icon holy, the person who makes it or the one who uses it for fervent prayer?
Though God can and does certainly make exceptions, I would say both.

As it stands, you have chosen to argue with a woman who has convinced me that she is the forum's eminent expert on the Orthodox iconographic tradition. For you to argue with her who has likely been studying iconography for longer than you've been alive, you might as well be bringing a knife to a gunfight. You might make much better use of your time by just walking away from this thread and doing something else, because you're not going to accomplish anything here.
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« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2012, 02:41:23 AM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
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« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2012, 06:53:16 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?
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« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2012, 07:27:32 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?

This forum is a whirlpool of confusion for those of us who grew up around traditional Episcopalian, Congregational, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other churches that, in our minds, constituted Protestants. Now, every hyperdox in the world thinks that a "Protestant" is some kind of Bible-thumping lunatic. If one were only to listen to/read American Orthodox sources, one would have the impression that this is all that Protestantism is.
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« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2012, 07:58:53 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?

This forum is a whirlpool of confusion for those of us who grew up around traditional Episcopalian, Congregational, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other churches that, in our minds, constituted Protestants. Now, every hyperdox in the world thinks that a "Protestant" is some kind of Bible-thumping lunatic. If one were only to listen to/read American Orthodox sources, one would have the impression that this is all that Protestantism is.

Heresy is heresy. Whether it be bible worshiping, female homosexual "bishop" having, Eucharist denying, "tongues" speaking, or whatever; its all wrong.  But you know youre right. I should get which heretical church were insulting correct next time. Those toll house demons might ask me about this stuff... youre messin with tradition man! If you aint crackin on the heterodox, you aint Orthodoxchristianity.net !!!
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« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2012, 09:22:51 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?

This forum is a whirlpool of confusion for those of us who grew up around traditional Episcopalian, Congregational, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other churches that, in our minds, constituted Protestants. Now, every hyperdox in the world thinks that a "Protestant" is some kind of Bible-thumping lunatic. If one were only to listen to/read American Orthodox sources, one would have the impression that this is all that Protestantism is.

For a long time I was perplexed as to how such a wide variety of groups could be called "protestant". But then it occurred to me that the term "catholic" includes a pretty wide variety as well -- Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, as well as a few small groups.
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« Reply #67 on: May 24, 2012, 02:18:19 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.
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« Reply #68 on: May 24, 2012, 02:20:30 PM »

I'm in a similar predicament; my cousin-in-law (Who was Greek Orthodox in the past but burnt out) called me and asked me if I wanted some of his old religious books, that he had a ton of them. So me, being excited expecting some old Greek Orthodox books, arrive at his house only to find like nine or twelve Protestant Left Behind books. Out of sheer politeness, I take them anyway and so far they have just been sitting under my bed untouched. My parents asked me why I have not read them and I usually shrug the question off or try to avoid it because they're Protestant and actually believe in that stuff, so I don't want to cause tension.

This probably goes without saying, but I feel like I should say it just in case: you realize that not all protestants are Left Behind fans, right?

Don't burden JamesR with obvious facts.  They ruin his little imaginary world.
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« Reply #69 on: May 24, 2012, 03:22:48 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68
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« Reply #70 on: May 24, 2012, 03:36:46 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68

 angel I think he is taking Nietzsche too literally...
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« Reply #71 on: May 24, 2012, 03:40:14 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68

 angel I think he is taking Nietzsche too literally...

If he had, he would be using a tuning fork.
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« Reply #72 on: May 24, 2012, 03:44:13 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68

 angel I think he is taking Nietzsche too literally...

If he had, he would be using a tuning fork.

Then he would be understanding Nietzche, rather than assuming that the title (in English, anyway, not sure about the German) can be taken in a straightforward, woodenly literal way...

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...
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« Reply #73 on: May 24, 2012, 04:05:18 PM »

You could give it to the "preacher" to smash it with a hammer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrPrbdonJ68

 angel I think he is taking Nietzsche too literally...

If he had, he would be using a tuning fork.

Then he would be understanding Nietzche, rather than assuming that the title (in English, anyway, not sure about the German) can be taken in a straightforward, woodenly literal way...

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...

It was a joke, sorta.

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...

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« Reply #74 on: May 24, 2012, 04:18:28 PM »

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...

You don't know how much it pained me to read this. It's like hearing yourself on an answering machine or something. You can't help but cringe.
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« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2012, 04:28:18 PM »

EDIT--Though I suppose if I have to clarify or explain what I meant by a joke, that it wasn't a very good joke to begin with... bah...

You don't know how much it pained me to read this. It's like hearing yourself on an answering machine or something. You can't help but cringe.

You do realize that recently someone said that my voice is how they imagine God sounding.

But you do get my point. From the introduction, if you don't remember. Rather than explaining it myself, lazy google says:

Quote
Nietzsche originally planned to title the book, Idleness of a Psychologist, but his friend and literary editor, Peter Gast (birthname: Heinrich Köselitz), suggested the title Twilight of the Idols (Götzen-Dämmerung), which was a play on words on Wagner’s Twilight of the Gods (Götterdämmerung).

The Wagner opera is based on Ragnarök, a series of future events in Norse mythology in which even gods, who are normally considered immortal, face their death.  After the death of several gods, and the submersion of the world in water, the world would be reborn from a few survivors. 

The play on words in the title of Nietzsche’s book indicates that the impending twilight is of ‘idols’ or ‘false gods’ (the diminutive götzen is used as opposed to götter in Wagner’s title).  The subtitle to his book is ‘How to Philosophize with a Hammer’.  As he indicates in the preface, Nietzsche plans to use his hammer as a tuning fork to sound out whether these ‘eternal idols’ are actually hollow. 

The image of a hammer might make us think of the powerful, destructive powers of Mjöllnir, that is, Thor’s destructive hammer that was capable of leveling mountains.  However, the irony is that Nietzsche is using the subtle hammer of his capacities as a critical philosopher, and yet his hammer too is capable of leveling mountains.

http://verhexung.com/post/7624109958

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« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2012, 04:29:51 PM »

Now I'm left wondering if you knew that I already knew what you know and are apparently trying to tell me  Cheesy
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« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2012, 04:35:56 PM »

Now I'm left wondering if you knew that I already knew what you know and are apparently trying to tell me  Cheesy

It pays to have an editor. What sorta title is that? Idleness of a Psychologist. Gast with his man crush on Neech came up with a brilliant way to further divide the formerly close friends further in hope of having him all to himself.

So what I am really saying is that bromance is awesome, how do you feel about being roommates?
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« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2012, 05:08:22 PM »

 laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2012, 05:13:23 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?
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« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2012, 05:16:55 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

Who is not incapable of reading this as not an insult?
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« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2012, 05:27:59 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

Who is not incapable of reading this as not an insult?
laugh laugh wicked!  laugh
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« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2012, 07:52:09 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

Another example of syncretist bunk from Robert Lentz, who painted the picture in the OP. Lentz attempts to illustrate Einstein’s “spirituality” by quoting him:

“It was not my rational consciousness that brought me to an understanding of the fundamental laws of the universe.”

“The most beautiful experience we can have is mysterious.”

“More and more I come to value charity and love of one’s fellow being above everything else… all our lauded technological progress – our very civilization – is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal.”


All very cute and wonderful. Lentz seems to have missed this quote from Einstein (who, btw, was Jewish, not Christian, so painting "icons" of him is out for this reason alone):

“I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes His creatures, or has a will of the kind which we experience in ourselves. Neither can I, or would I, want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death. Let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts.”
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« Reply #83 on: May 24, 2012, 07:57:32 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

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« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2012, 08:08:39 PM »

“I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes His creatures, or has a will of the kind which we experience in ourselves. Neither can I, or would I, want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death. Let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts.”


Oooh, that's a good one.
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« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2012, 08:36:53 PM »



[i]“I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes His creatures, or has a will of the kind which we experience in ourselves. Neither can I, or would I, want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death. Let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts.”
[/i]

 this would be a good reason to say to him, "You are a big dummy, Einstein! get a haircut!''   Wink Wink  @ peter J
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« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2012, 08:39:08 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

I can conceive of gravies that would boggle your tiny mind.
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« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2012, 08:51:00 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

I can conceive of gravies that would boggle your tiny mind.
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Hahahaha! I love you guys...not in the way of the ancient Greeks, but the way a robot loves a human, and a human loves a dog, and, occasionally, a gorilla loves a kitty.
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« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2012, 09:25:57 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

I can conceive of gravies that would boggle your tiny mind.
- Overclockwise

Every time I burp, a new galaxy is born. Two if I’ve been eating broccoli.

Hahahaha! I love you guys...not in the way of the ancient Greeks, but the way a robot loves a human, and a human loves a dog, and, occasionally, a gorilla loves a kitty.

LOL dude this is the 31 century! aincent greeks are just unimaginative!  laugh
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« Reply #89 on: May 24, 2012, 09:37:58 PM »

I must say that I find it very sad that someone as obviously artistically talented would use that gift in such a perverted manner.
Exactly. Either way, I have a new avatar.

Who is that Einstein?

I can conceive of gravies that would boggle your tiny mind.
- Overclockwise

Every time I burp, a new galaxy is born. Two if I’ve been eating broccoli.

Hahahaha! I love you guys...not in the way of the ancient Greeks, but the way a robot loves a human, and a human loves a dog, and, occasionally, a gorilla loves a kitty.

Well this has taken a weird twist. I feel like someone's going to start quoting Jerematic.
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« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2012, 09:44:17 PM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2012, 09:50:42 PM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley
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« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2012, 11:52:54 PM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.
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« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2012, 05:14:58 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was such an attempt. Then what?
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« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2012, 05:21:03 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was such an attempt. Then what?

Well, I would say that there does not appear to be anything odious about it, even if it was intended to be some sort of sociopolitical statement, and LBK has thus far not demonstrated anything the matter with this image, nor shown me any patristic support for the idea that an icon must be created by a holy, prayerful person.
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« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2012, 05:52:19 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was such an attempt. Then what?

Well, I would say that there does not appear to be anything odious about it, even if it was intended to be some sort of sociopolitical statement, and LBK has thus far not demonstrated anything the matter with this image, nor shown me any patristic support for the idea that an icon must be created by a holy, prayerful person.

Have you read St John of Damascus' In Defense of the Holy Images? Here's a link:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.asp

St John is not the only father who has written about iconography, but this work of his is a very good start.
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« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2012, 06:33:30 AM »

Some food for thought, from a working iconographer, in response to the existence of dubious and uncanonical images, particularly the novelties painted in recent years by often (but, sadly, not exclusively) non-Orthodox artists:

Quote
We have been down this path before and it always leads the same place. A lack of humility and obedience. Originally, iconography was a monastic endeavor. It was supposed to be a vocation in the church. You were supposed to give up other forms of expression solely for iconography. Few have done that. Lately, it has become a sideshow to one's art career and inner expression, just a hobby to be taken up without much thought.

Look at the cashing-in on painting classes everywhere. $700+ to teach non-Orthodox how to paint the sacred imagery. But without exposure to Liturgy every week, they pervert the images and make their own statements as if they had the authority. The arguments of "Why can't I?" and "How dare you tell me what to paint?" ring in the ears. We are not going to bend our knee to any authority as we are in charge of our own salvation. We have stacks of books that tell us so. It's sad, and telling, about our society and path.

The saddest part is that we quietly accept these perversions as versions of the truth. The uniformed and uninspired current Orthodox accept false images and display them unknowingly. The painters of false icons open their mouths and speak with authority without the ancient knowledge to support them. They walk in error and repeat that error many times over.

A further response to James Rottnek's query as to whether icons must be painted by prayerful people, is this: Must a hymnographer writing for the Church (such as writing for a newly-proclaimed saint) be prayerful while he works? If not, why not?
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« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2012, 08:20:02 AM »

Some food for thought, from a working iconographer, in response to the existence of dubious and uncanonical images, particularly the novelties painted in recent years by often (but, sadly, not exclusively) non-Orthodox artists:

Quote
We have been down this path before and it always leads the same place. A lack of humility and obedience. Originally, iconography was a monastic endeavor. It was supposed to be a vocation in the church. You were supposed to give up other forms of expression solely for iconography. Few have done that. Lately, it has become a sideshow to one's art career and inner expression, just a hobby to be taken up without much thought.

Look at the cashing-in on painting classes everywhere. $700+ to teach non-Orthodox how to paint the sacred imagery. But without exposure to Liturgy every week, they pervert the images and make their own statements as if they had the authority. The arguments of "Why can't I?" and "How dare you tell me what to paint?" ring in the ears. We are not going to bend our knee to any authority as we are in charge of our own salvation. We have stacks of books that tell us so. It's sad, and telling, about our society and path.

The saddest part is that we quietly accept these perversions as versions of the truth. The uniformed and uninspired current Orthodox accept false images and display them unknowingly. The painters of false icons open their mouths and speak with authority without the ancient knowledge to support them. They walk in error and repeat that error many times over.

A further response to James Rottnek's query as to whether icons must be painted by prayerful people, is this: Must a hymnographer writing for the Church (such as writing for a newly-proclaimed saint) be prayerful while he works? If not, why not?

And I assume this working iconographer is a father of the Church?
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« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2012, 08:20:42 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was such an attempt. Then what?

Well, I would say that there does not appear to be anything odious about it, even if it was intended to be some sort of sociopolitical statement, and LBK has thus far not demonstrated anything the matter with this image, nor shown me any patristic support for the idea that an icon must be created by a holy, prayerful person.

Have you read St John of Damascus' In Defense of the Holy Images? Here's a link:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.asp

St John is not the only father who has written about iconography, but this work of his is a very good start.

I in fact read it several months ago, can you point me to a particular passage you're referring to, because I don't really have a desire to re-read the entire thing right now.
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« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2012, 08:21:36 AM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?
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« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2012, 08:27:56 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was a genuine attempt to create an icon. Then what?

(words added for clarity)
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« Reply #101 on: May 25, 2012, 08:31:08 AM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

Suppose it was a genuine attempt to create an icon. Then what?

(words added for clarity)

Then seeing as how LBK has not actually pointed out anything objectionable about it, I see no reason at all to not venerate it.
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« Reply #102 on: May 25, 2012, 10:39:36 AM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Answer me this, James: To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.
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« Reply #103 on: May 25, 2012, 10:50:26 AM »

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?
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« Reply #104 on: May 25, 2012, 11:56:15 AM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.
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« Reply #105 on: May 25, 2012, 12:04:13 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.
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« Reply #106 on: May 25, 2012, 12:09:35 PM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Answer me this, James: To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?


*Bump* What say you, James?
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« Reply #107 on: May 25, 2012, 12:20:11 PM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Answer me this, James: To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?


*Bump* What say you, James?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking; questions are usually more clear when more than one word is asked.
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« Reply #108 on: May 25, 2012, 12:25:42 PM »

OK then, James, let's break it up into more digestible bits:

In response to your
Quote
Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

In response to:

Quote
Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.

What do you say to this?

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?

Put another way, how many iconographers paint icons without prayer?
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« Reply #109 on: May 25, 2012, 12:47:23 PM »

OK then, James, let's break it up into more digestible bits:

In response to your
Quote
Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

To whom was Robert Lentz praying, and what words was he praying, as he painted Sts Sergius and Bacchus as a couple of gay blades? As he painted Christ as a horned pagan god, as a dark-skinned tribal woman holding the Venus of Willendorf statuette, or as the mythical figure Quetzalcoatl? As he painted Albert Einstein, Mahatma Gandhi and Jalal'uddin Rumi as saints? As he painted the Mother of God as a Navajo woman?

In response to:

Quote
Painting icons is neither a hobby, nor a means of personal creative expression. It is, first and foremost, an obedience: obedience to the traditions and canons of iconography, and, above all, obedience to the teachings of the Church. Iconographers are not free agents giving full rein to their creative impulses, but instruments in service to the Church. Robert Lentz persistently flies in the face of even the traditions and teachings of his own church, let alone those of Orthodoxy. All his work is tainted by his wilfulness and disobedience. He cannot serve two masters. No true iconographer can.

What do you say to this?

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

Most?

Put another way, how many iconographers paint icons without prayer?

I don't know who he was praying to, or if he was praying, I try not to assume that I know what random people do with their time.  Have you asked him who he may have been praying to, or if he - in fact - was praying at all?  I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you.

On your second point, I have no idea how many iconographers paint icons without prayer.  It could be nearly all of them, it could be nearly none of them.  There have been many, many bad, bad, bad monastics over the years, and I would in no way be surprised if many of them painted icons.

Besides though, I still have seen zero patristic support for your idea that who paints the icon is important, or whether or not they pray.
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« Reply #110 on: May 25, 2012, 12:57:37 PM »

Quote
On your second point,  I have no idea how many iconographers paint icons without prayer. It could be nearly all of them, it could be nearly none of them. There have been many, many bad, bad, bad monastics over the years, and I would in no way be surprised if many of them painted icons.

Then you would be well advised to find out more about what's involved in painting an icon, before rushing in and saying things which betray your lack of knowledge on this matter, yet, in your ignorance, cling to a POV which many here have tried to dissuade you from, not because they want to lord it over you, but because they're willing to help you learn. If you don't wish to listen to what I, or others here, have had to say (and the advice you've been given is remarkably consistent), then ask your priest about whether or not prayer is necessary during the painting of an icon.



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« Reply #111 on: May 25, 2012, 01:00:56 PM »

Then you would be well advised to find out more about what's involved in painting an icon, before rushing in and saying things which betray your lack of knowledge on this matter, yet, in your ignorance, cling to a POV which many here have tried to dissuade you from, not because they want to lord it over you, but because they're willing to help you learn. If you don't wish to listen to what I, or others here, have had to say, then ask your priest about whether or not prayer is necessary during the painting of an icon.

There seems to be a potential disconnect here between theory and reality. Just because people say an iconographer should pray, that doesn't mean they do. You might as well argue that all or almost all Orthodox read the Bible and pray every day, besides giving alms and helping old ladies cross the street, because that's what they're supposed to do.
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« Reply #112 on: May 25, 2012, 01:18:09 PM »

Then you would be well advised to find out more about what's involved in painting an icon, before rushing in and saying things which betray your lack of knowledge on this matter, yet, in your ignorance, cling to a POV which many here have tried to dissuade you from, not because they want to lord it over you, but because they're willing to help you learn. If you don't wish to listen to what I, or others here, have had to say, then ask your priest about whether or not prayer is necessary during the painting of an icon.

There seems to be a potential disconnect here between theory and reality. Just because people say an iconographer should pray, that doesn't mean they do. You might as well argue that all or almost all Orthodox read the Bible and pray every day, besides giving alms and helping old ladies cross the street, because that's what they're supposed to do.

Asteriktos, you might not be aware that an iconographer must be given a specific blessing by his bishop before being able to hold himself out as an iconographer. It is not an ordained position, but one in which the prospective iconographer must show that he has the proper spiritual mindset and correct doctrinal approach to embark on this holy work. Such rigor is also demanded for those who write hymns and service texts. Both obediences are major responsibilities in the life of the Church. They are not playthings subject to the whims and fancies of those who pursue them.

By contrast, giving alms or reading the Bible needs no permission from priest or bishop.
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« Reply #113 on: May 25, 2012, 01:24:15 PM »

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Again, you are still stuck in theory. You could say the same thing about what is expected of priests and bishops, how they go through this process and are tested, etc. Yet. St. John Chrysostom says that most bishops will not be saved.
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« Reply #114 on: May 25, 2012, 01:32:53 PM »

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Again, you are still stuck in theory. You could say the same thing about what is expected of priests and bishops, how they go through this process and are tested, etc. Yet. St. John Chrysostom says that most bishops will not be saved.

Ever the relativist. Your username is well-chosen.  Sad
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« Reply #115 on: May 25, 2012, 02:09:58 PM »

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Again, you are still stuck in theory. You could say the same thing about what is expected of priests and bishops, how they go through this process and are tested, etc. Yet. St. John Chrysostom says that most bishops will not be saved.

Ever the relativist. Your username is well-chosen.  Sad

What is relativistic about Asteriktos' point? Even though it is required for much prayer to go into icon-painting, it may not necessarily be so in reality. How do we know who is actually praying? If I didn't use any icons that were made without prayer, how many do you think I could use?

Nonetheless, I'm with you on this.
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« Reply #116 on: May 25, 2012, 02:24:21 PM »

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Again, you are still stuck in theory. You could say the same thing about what is expected of priests and bishops, how they go through this process and are tested, etc. Yet. St. John Chrysostom says that most bishops will not be saved.

Ever the relativist. Your username is well-chosen.  Sad

I don't know what's relativist about not being delusional.
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« Reply #117 on: May 25, 2012, 02:48:51 PM »


You guys seem to be missing the point.

LBK is stating what "should" be the norm.  Why bother teaching something that is below par?

Yes, clergy and bishops might not be saved, however, the Church teaches what is expected of them, and prays and expects that they SHOULD meet their obligations and be saved.

Same with all of us.  Just because "we" aren't disciplined enough in following the rules, canons, laws, recommendations, of the Church in order to hopefully, through the Grace of God, achieve salvation....doesn't mean the Church should lower her standards and teach something "less".

Same with icons.  Certainly not all icons are created in a prayerful atmosphere, with prayers constantly on the lips of the iconographer, nor are they fasting, and they might not even be using tempera paints.....

However, the proper way to write/paint an icon should still be taught.

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« Reply #118 on: May 25, 2012, 03:19:02 PM »

Then you would be well advised to find out more about what's involved in painting an icon, before rushing in and saying things which betray your lack of knowledge on this matter, yet, in your ignorance, cling to a POV which many here have tried to dissuade you from, not because they want to lord it over you, but because they're willing to help you learn. If you don't wish to listen to what I, or others here, have had to say, then ask your priest about whether or not prayer is necessary during the painting of an icon.

There seems to be a potential disconnect here between theory and reality. Just because people say an iconographer should pray, that doesn't mean they do. You might as well argue that all or almost all Orthodox read the Bible and pray every day, besides giving alms and helping old ladies cross the street, because that's what they're supposed to do.

 Yes, and a man or women dedicated to writing Icons spending hours upon hours creating the thing for the love of the saint/Theotokos/Christ they are painting and the Church, should be likened to a pseudo-Orthodox or half assed parishoner such as yourself?   Every monastic or priest I have talked about the subject has said the same thing. An Eastern Catholic priest that lives 30 miles from me and is an Icon writter no less being one of them. I guess thats irrelevant. The expert who weighed in, blown off.  How many pre-nicean fathers actually write about the True presence of the eucharist? About child baptism? I guess somebody just made it up... No fathers have written about it? How many of them were Icon writers? Werent they concerned about leading the soul to purity through prayer and aceticism and how to defeat the various demons and identifying them?  Thats what Im getting out of this Philokalia thing Im reading. I could be wrong.

Im sure there are professional artists who could emmulate an Icon. But then its just a work of art. Not a true Icon.



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« Reply #119 on: May 25, 2012, 03:26:30 PM »

Yes, and a man or women dedicated to writing Icons spending hours upon hours creating the thing for the love of the saint/Theotokos/Christ they are painting and the Church, should be likened to a pseudo-Orthodox or half assed parishoner such as yourself? 

Huh? I'm not Orthodox, I'm not even a Christian. But I suppose comparisons to priests, bishops, etc., or addressing any of the points I made, is above your intellectual capabilities (gee, this ad hominem stuff is fun!)

Quote
 Every monastic or priest I have talked about the subject has said the same thing.

More theory. Great. Or is this anecdote? Here's an anecdote for you. I spent a weekend in a GOA monastery and they were constantly bickering and back biting, and when out of ear shot gossiping about each other. But oh that couldn't possibly be, because in theory monks are meek and humble people!

Quote
A Uniate priest that lives 30 miles from me and is an Icon writter no less being one of them. I guess thats irrelevant.

Completely.

Quote
The expert who weighed in, blown off.

The expert thinks stories about Mary living in the Tmeple are literally true. Seems she has a hard time discerning reality in more areas than just how iconographers might act.

Quote
How many pre-nicean fathers actually write about the True presence of the eucharist? About child baptism? I guess somebody just made it up... No fathers have written about it? How many of them were Icon writers? Werent they concerned about leading the soul to purity through prayer and aceticism and how to defeat the various demons and identifying them?  Thats what Im getting out of this Philokalia thing Im reading. I could be wrong.

I'm assuming you're addressing someone else with this part, because I have no idea what you're talking about.
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« Reply #120 on: May 25, 2012, 03:29:40 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

BS. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.



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« Reply #121 on: May 25, 2012, 03:31:46 PM »

Once upon a time, there was a thread about an icon sociopolitical painting.  Lips Sealed

Fixed it for ya.  Wink Smiley

You still have failed to show me how this particular image was in any way sociopolitical, and not a genuine attempt to create an icon.

If the painter was attempting to create an icon, he would be Orthodox, and have a blessing to do iconography.
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« Reply #122 on: May 25, 2012, 03:32:58 PM »

Also, LBK, why do you assume the artist did NOT pray quite a bit while painting this?  Has he written somewhere that he doesn't pray while painting his icons?

Further, how do you know most iconographers DO pray?

What would the prayers avail?
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« Reply #123 on: May 25, 2012, 03:34:03 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...
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« Reply #124 on: May 25, 2012, 03:45:17 PM »

Yes, and a man or women dedicated to writing Icons spending hours upon hours creating the thing for the love of the saint/Theotokos/Christ they are painting and the Church, should be likened to a pseudo-Orthodox or half assed parishoner such as yourself?

Huh? I'm not Orthodox, I'm not even a Christian. But I suppose comparisons to priests, bishops, etc., or addressing any of the points I made, is above your intellectual capabilities (gee, this ad hominem stuff is fun!)

Quote
Every monastic or priest I have talked about the subject has said the same thing.

More theory. Great. Or is this anecdote? Here's an anecdote for you. I spent a weekend in a GOA monastery and they were constantly bickering and back biting, and when out of ear shot gossiping about each other. But oh that couldn't possibly be, because in theory monks are meek and humble people!

Quote
A Uniate priest that lives 30 miles from me and is an Icon writter no less being one of them. I guess thats irrelevant.

Completely.

Quote
The expert who weighed in, blown off.

The expert thinks stories about Mary living in the Tmeple are literally true. Seems she has a hard time discerning reality in more areas than just how iconographers might act.

Quote
How many pre-nicean fathers actually write about the True presence of the eucharist? About child baptism? I guess somebody just made it up... No fathers have written about it? How many of them were Icon writers? Werent they concerned about leading the soul to purity through prayer and aceticism and how to defeat the various demons and identifying them?  Thats what Im getting out of this Philokalia thing Im reading. I could be wrong.

I'm assuming you're addressing someone else with this part, because I have no idea what you're talking about.

My bad. I thought you were someone else. (who was Orthodox).  But the point was there are many Orthodox who are that in name only, And someone who writes an Icon and spends that much love and time with it would be much more likely to do things the way it should be done as opposed to folk that are Orthodox in name only and not dedicated or just go for the social outing.

Well as to the monks, you know they are falling short of what they are supposed to be doing. So there is a standard as to what should be done. Im sure you are exaggerating or just being pessimistic. Any monk will admit they fall down and they get back up. Im not a gossiper. I honestly state my thoughts directly to a person, typically in a tactful way. I couldnt comment on the monks you saw but if it is true I am a bit disgusted. But then again after praying for six hours I would give them a little slack. Because you saw monks falling short in a particular scenario is never the less rediculous to say that just because it is tradition that Icon writters are supposed to pray we cant really say that they do. We really can know besides what my calculations tell me and what I see on video. Right.... To assume none of them follow suit is an idiotic assumtion.

If someon who knows nothing of the subject matter contradicts someone who has actually been doing said matter for years, that is the epitimy of arrogance and stupidity.       

Ive read similar things on Mary living in the temple. Whats her source? Why do you assume this isnt true?  Are you saying there were no nuns? Do you even know of the Essinians?

My dad is an expert in cell phone stuff.  Now he is retarded in everyother thing, but I wouldnt think to question him in his field of expertise.
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« Reply #125 on: May 25, 2012, 03:59:20 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...

Seriously youre being completely obtuse. Theres no point in talking to you because there is no reasoning with you. No matter what evidence is brought forth you wont concede anything. You want to control every aspect of the questioning to only allow the evidence you will accept and nothing else. You are like the moronic atheists who no matter what evidence is brought forth for a design in nature, they will not believe unless the Lord comes down and talkes to them personally and makes the moon disapear and reapear or something to that extent. The tradition is everywhere and it matches up. You dont want to believe it because it is contradicting your impious world view. No longer will I be worse than the fool being drawn down into an argument with one.
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« Reply #126 on: May 25, 2012, 04:09:08 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...

Seriously youre being completely obtuse. Theres no point in talking to you because there is no reasoning with you. No matter what evidence is brought forth you wont concede anything. You want to control every aspect of the questioning to only allow the evidence you will accept and nothing else. You are like the moronic atheists who no matter what evidence is brought forth for a design in nature, they will not believe unless the Lord comes down and talkes to them personally and makes the moon disapear and reapear or something to that extent. The tradition is everywhere and it matches up. You dont want to believe it because it is contradicting your impious world view. No longer will I be worse than the fool being drawn down into an argument with one.

I'm surprised you know what I would do if evidence was brought up, given that none has been.  All you've done is claim "The tradition is apparent," and when I ask "Can you show me a patristic source," you say "You stupid fool!  How dare you question the tradition!"  You have yet, as with LBK, to prove that your claim is tradition.

Repeatedly insulting me does not show evidence that your claims are tradition.
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« Reply #127 on: May 25, 2012, 04:21:55 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...

Seriously youre being completely obtuse. Theres no point in talking to you because there is no reasoning with you. No matter what evidence is brought forth you wont concede anything. You want to control every aspect of the questioning to only allow the evidence you will accept and nothing else. You are like the moronic atheists who no matter what evidence is brought forth for a design in nature, they will not believe unless the Lord comes down and talkes to them personally and makes the moon disapear and reapear or something to that extent. The tradition is everywhere and it matches up. You dont want to believe it because it is contradicting your impious world view. No longer will I be worse than the fool being drawn down into an argument with one.

I'm surprised you know what I would do if evidence was brought up, given that none has been.  All you've done is claim "The tradition is apparent," and when I ask "Can you show me a patristic source," you say "You stupid fool!  How dare you question the tradition!"  You have yet, as with LBK, to prove that your claim is tradition.

Repeatedly insulting me does not show evidence that your claims are tradition.

The tradition is the same all over from what Ive seen. It cant be unless it is the same as it always had been. Im not going to interview folks from around the world  for you. Do it yourself. This isnt a matter of the core faith so thats probably why its hard to find patristic writings, along with the Fathers not being the guys who write Icons.  Michaelangelo even said to pray to the Holy Spirit while creating art to get a great product. One would think that you would pray to the saint you were painting would be common sense or a reasonable conclusion. But thanks to lunatics, common sense is dead.
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« Reply #128 on: May 25, 2012, 04:46:44 PM »

Wow.  'Question everything!'  Even to the point of nihilistic absurdity.  Go modernism...

You're like a juror from the OJ Simpson trial.  You've got the evidence before you, ask any monastic or priest and he'll give you the same answers. If you dont believe its out of retardation or willful denial.

Well aren't you a ball of brilliant insight.

All I've asked for is some actual patristic source, and gotten nothing of the sort.

Bullshit. You've questioned everything the Church holds by tradition to the process of writting an Icon, from the praying, to the subject matter of said Icon.  "I just wanted to see a patristic source." No youre not trying to undermine anything here... Of course not.... If the tradition and numerous testimony isnt enough for you(from actual Icon writers and/or priests), when there is nothing written to the contrary that you can find,. then you still are without a leg to stand on.

So if somebody claims something, then it's the tradition?  Hmm...

Seriously youre being completely obtuse. Theres no point in talking to you because there is no reasoning with you. No matter what evidence is brought forth you wont concede anything. You want to control every aspect of the questioning to only allow the evidence you will accept and nothing else. You are like the moronic atheists who no matter what evidence is brought forth for a design in nature, they will not believe unless the Lord comes down and talkes to them personally and makes the moon disapear and reapear or something to that extent. The tradition is everywhere and it matches up. You dont want to believe it because it is contradicting your impious world view. No longer will I be worse than the fool being drawn down into an argument with one.

I'm surprised you know what I would do if evidence was brought up, given that none has been.  All you've done is claim "The tradition is apparent," and when I ask "Can you show me a patristic source," you say "You stupid fool!  How dare you question the tradition!"  You have yet, as with LBK, to prove that your claim is tradition.

Repeatedly insulting me does not show evidence that your claims are tradition.

The tradition is the same all over from what Ive seen. It cant be unless it is the same as it always had been. Im not going to interview folks from around the world  for you. Do it yourself. This isnt a matter of the core faith so thats probably why its hard to find patristic writings, along with the Fathers not being the guys who write Icons.  Michaelangelo even said to pray to the Holy Spirit while creating art to get a great product. One would think that you would pray to the saint you were painting would be common sense or a reasonable conclusion. But thanks to lunatics, common sense is dead.

You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.
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« Reply #129 on: May 26, 2012, 12:34:56 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
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« Reply #130 on: May 26, 2012, 12:48:47 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
Not long enough to destroy icons.
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« Reply #131 on: May 26, 2012, 01:07:02 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
His profile says he's only 18.
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« Reply #132 on: May 26, 2012, 01:28:58 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)

I have been Orthodox for over 60 years. And personally, I think James's posts have been commendable and his steadfastness has also been commendable.

What is my concern is the lack of a personal statement by Robert Lentz . Perhaps I missed it. It would be nice to learn what he considers to be outreach illustrations vs iconograohy.
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« Reply #133 on: May 26, 2012, 01:38:41 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
His profile says he's only 18.

If that is the case, more reason to commend him for his reserved assessments.
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« Reply #134 on: May 26, 2012, 02:36:23 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)

I have been Orthodox for over 60 years. And personally, I think James's posts have been commendable and his steadfastness has also been commendable.
For what reasons?
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« Reply #135 on: May 26, 2012, 02:39:52 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
His profile says he's only 18.

If that is the case, more reason to commend him for his reserved assessments.
Reserved does not describe JamesRottnek's brief history on this forum.
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« Reply #136 on: May 26, 2012, 02:46:20 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)
His profile says he's only 18.

If that is the case, more reason to commend him for his reserved assessments.
Reserved does not describe JamesRottnek's brief history on this forum.
Or catechumens in gen.
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« Reply #137 on: May 26, 2012, 03:23:48 AM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)

I really don't see how it's relevant unless having the faith for x amount of years makes one an automatic expert on tradition.  But seriously, you expect me to take something as the Orthodox Faith when you can provide no source - beyond a contemporary iconographer - to back up your claim?  Is that how Orthodoxy works?
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« Reply #138 on: May 26, 2012, 01:13:57 PM »

Quote
You say "The tradition is the same all over from what I've seen," but have yet to provide any source from the Fathers.

James, how long have you been Orthodox? (this is not a snarky question, it is very relevant to the topic at hand)

I really don't see how it's relevant unless having the faith for x amount of years makes one an automatic expert on tradition.
But just reading a bunch of books doesn't make one an expert on Tradition, either. One has to have acquired the experience of living the Faith, which one can only do over the course of many years. There are some here who have been Orthodox for three times as long as you've been alive. Whereas that doesn't automatically make them experts, that does mean they've had many more years to experience the Faith than you have. I think you should take their perspectives seriously.

But seriously, you expect me to take something as the Orthodox Faith when you can provide no source - beyond a contemporary iconographer - to back up your claim?  Is that how Orthodoxy works?
I'm beginning to think that this is to some degree exactly how Orthodoxy works. Although we can certainly learn much about the Faith by reading the Fathers, not everything that is passed on via Tradition is to be found in the Fathers, just as not everything passed on via Tradition is found in the Scriptures. In such fields as hymnography and iconography, two very important ways of preserving and passing on the Faith, I think we have to recognize that the way truth is passed on here is largely by the master teaching the novice. (I learned a lot of this simply by disputing LBK exactly the same way you are here.)
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« Reply #139 on: May 27, 2012, 05:55:57 PM »

33 A.D. "Tell us, by what authority do you do these things?"

2012 A.D. "Tell me, what's your evidence from primary sources?" (Not that I'll even relent after that, since primary sources are still not above questions. After all, no Holy Father is infallible. And even a bunch of them saying the same thing won't convince me because they could all be wrong. After all, didn't they support slavery?)
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« Reply #140 on: May 27, 2012, 07:46:32 PM »

33 A.D. "Tell us, by what authority do you do these things?"

2012 A.D. "Tell me, what's your evidence from primary sources?" (Not that I'll even relent after that, since primary sources are still not above questions. After all, no Holy Father is infallible. And even a bunch of them saying the same thing won't convince me because they could all be wrong. After all, didn't they support slavery?)

WIN!!  laugh
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« Reply #141 on: May 28, 2012, 09:40:08 AM »

What is my concern is the lack of a personal statement by Robert Lentz . Perhaps I missed it. It would be nice to learn what he considers to be outreach illustrations vs iconograohy.

Opus, here's an excerpt of Robert Lent's own publicity material in italics, with bold sections my emphasis. These italicized statements are completely proper and correct. Following each paragraph are examples in color of his own words on images he has painted which contradict these principles:

The constancy of the Christian faith is reflected in its art. The icon is steeped in tradition. We all can imagine the ancient scribe carefully copying letter by letter the ancient religious texts. In a similar way the iconographer follows that which was before him. The artist’s creativity comes in to play not through creating the “novel”, but in the freedom to manipulate line, color, and form for a directed purpose: the expression of the truth and vision of the Church.

In the sacred history of Meso-America, a Christ-like figure dominates the spiritual horizon. His name is Quetzalcoatl, which means the Plumed Serpent. Quetzalcoatl is one of the most ancient concepts of God in this region. He reconciles in himself heaven and earth. He is the creator of humankind and the giver of agriculture and the fine arts.

In the tenth century, a Toltec priest named Quetzalcoatl acquired a large following in the Valley of Mexico. He opposed both human sacrifice and warfare, promoting instead the arts and self-discipline as a means for coming closer to God. This made him many enemies among the ruling classes. They brought about his downfall, but he confounded them by rising from the dead, after being consumed in a sacred fire. His heart became the morning star, and he himself became young once again. He promised to return one day to his people.

The stories of Quetzalcoatl and Christ are so similar that it is easy to see one in the other. In this icon, both Quetzalcoatl and Christ are depicted in the same guise. It is a resurrection icon, with their heart ascending from the flames of death and rebirth. Around the edge, in gold leaf, is an ancient Aztec depiction of the Plumed Serpent. Red and black are the colors the Aztecs associated with the morning star.

Quetzalcoatl and Christ bring us the same timeless message: God is closer to us than we are to ourselves. In both their lives, our human condition has been joined inseparably to the divine. Each proclaims to us a simple gospel of compassion, and invites us to dance with God in the divine fire burning in each of our hearts.




In declaring and preserving the Christian faith, personal expression does not play a role.



In the Byzantine Church, references to Wisdom are considered references to Christ. Churches like Hagia Sophia in Istanbul are dedicated to Christ. From the Middle Ages on, icons depicting Christ as an androgynous figure, flanked by Mary and John the Baptist, have been painted in Russia & elsewhere. It is important now to take the next step and depict Wisdom -- Sophia -- as the woman Sacred Scriptures describe.

Looking honestly at our ancient tradition, it is clear that the mystery of Christ cannot be described in masculine terms alone. Because of historical and cultural circumstances, the Second Person of the Trinity became a male human being. Before the Incarnation, however, that person was described as "she." As the Incarnation continues to unfold after Christ’s resurrection and ascension, it is again the feminine Sophia who expresses the mystery -- as pointed out by the Russian theologian Soloviev.


By what authority does Lentz presume to paint Christ as a woman? He also ignores the fact that Sophianism, as promoted by Soloviev and Bulgakov, is a declared heresy in the Orthodox Church.

The term Father is symbolic, and it is also the term used by Christ Himself to refer to the first Person of the Holy Trinity during His life on earth. While the word wisdom is of the feminine gender in Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Slavonic (as well as a number of modern languages), it is purely a grammatical gender, and any notion that this somehow denotes “the divine feminine” is mistaken. The second Person of the Holy Trinity before the Incarnation was also described as the Word, in Greek Logos. What then would these “progressives” make of Logos, which is masculine in the Greek language? And is of various grammatical genders in other languages, ancient and modern?

What is most important is being faithful to the truths of the Christian faith.

The profusion of images this man has painted which violate Christian truths shows his hypocrisy in high relief. Painting Christ in pagan form, painting saints as homosexual lovers (Sts Sergius and Bacchus), painting non-Christians as saints (Gandhi, Einstein, Rumi the founder of the Sufi sect of Islam), mythological figures as saints (Merlin) ..... And then there's "Saint" Harvey Milk, "keeping vigil for himself and for all oppressed homosexuals" (Harvey Milk was murdered because of his homosexuality and advocacy for gays, not because he was defending the Christian faith. Big difference)

His spiel on the Sergius and Bacchus image:



Sts. Sergius and Bacchus are ancient Christian martyrs who were tortured to death in Syria because they refused to attend sacrifices in honor of Jupiter. Recent attention to early Greek manuscripts has also revealed that they were openly gay men and that they were erastai or lovers. These manuscripts are found in various libraries in Europe and indicate an earlier Christian acceptance of homosexuality.

After their arrest, the two saints were paraded through city streets in women’s clothing, treatment that was meant to humiliate them as officers in the Roman army. They were then separated and each was tortured. Bacchus died first and appeared that night to Sergius who was beginning to lose heart. According to the early manuscripts, Bacchus told Sergius to persevere, that the delights of heaven were greater than any suffering, and that part of their reward would be to be reunited in heaven as lovers.


The bolded words contradict Mark 12:25, on marriage and heaven: For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as angels in heaven. Homosexual activity has always been, and remains, sinful in the eyes of both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches.

The Christian message and vision of life and hope does not change with each new era and fad, nor does the vision of the icon.

Celtic Trinity (which also bears the Greek inscription I Aghia Trias (Holy Trinity) in the upper corners):


 
From ancient times human beings have responded to experiences with the divine with works of art. They have used metaphor and image to describe what they have "seen." Individual expressions of personal experiences of the divine have often challenged rigid religious traditions.

The spiritual genius of many ethnic groups through the centuries has been responsible for profound images of faith. Drawings on walls of prehistoric caves are powerful witnesses to highly developed spiritual sentiments of peoples who lived before the traditional religions of the East and West.

The civilizations of the Americas which flourished prior to the arrival of Columbus and missionaries from Europe were routinely destroyed. Images of faith were often condemned before any attempt was made to understand the experience which gave birth to these images of the spirit. Religious authorities, urged by patriarchal bias, were especially fearful of the role of feminine images in these primitive yet often highly evolved cultures. Male clerics and theologians were careful to exercise control over the images to be used in worship and devotions.

Native Americans, Africans, Asians, and early Europeans saw their religious traditions and images cast aside in favor of the Christian images current at the time. Treasures of faith were lost as cultures were systematically destroyed by colonists and conquerors.

A beautiful image from ancient Celtic religious experience was God as a trinity of women. The Maiden gave birth to creation. The Mother nurtured and protected it, and the Crone brought it wisely to its end. A raven accompanied the Crone as a symbol of life and death: though it ate dead things, it flew high into the heavens. The three women are depicted from different races to extend the Celtic image to a more global perspective. The snake was another sacred feminine image. It represented life, fertility, and rejuvenation. Devouring its own tail, it represented immortality.

Feminine images have suffered greatly in the west. Women will continue to suffer oppression in religious society until their images have been reclaimed and honored. These feminine insights can help to present a new healing perspective on the problems that face our modern world.


So what is Lentz doing painting the Holy Trinity in syncretistic, politically-correct terms? The most restrained comment that can be made about this image is that it is cultural relativism gone mad. Are pagan, New Age ideas and feminist influences just as valid as proper theology? This is particularly intolerable when such a heretical image is put on an equal footing with the sublime and incomparable Holy Trinity painted by St Andrei of Radonezh (Andrei Rublyev).

There's enough heretical and blasphemous material in Robert Lentz's portfolio to fill a book with analysis and critique. It is clear that he, through his works and words, repeatedly violates the very iconographic principles he supposedly espouses. It is impossible to conclude he is doing so in honest ignorance. So much of his work is tainted by his own agendas and causes, that all his work must be regarded as suspect, and avoided. He cannot serve two masters.
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« Reply #142 on: May 28, 2012, 09:46:20 AM »

33 A.D. "Tell us, by what authority do you do these things?"

2012 A.D. "Tell me, what's your evidence from primary sources?" (Not that I'll even relent after that, since primary sources are still not above questions. After all, no Holy Father is infallible. And even a bunch of them saying the same thing won't convince me because they could all be wrong. After all, didn't they support slavery?)

WIN!!  laugh

Is this, in other words, an admission that you have no patristic support for your claims of any kind whatsoever?
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« Reply #143 on: May 28, 2012, 10:40:09 AM »

33 A.D. "Tell us, by what authority do you do these things?"

2012 A.D. "Tell me, what's your evidence from primary sources?" (Not that I'll even relent after that, since primary sources are still not above questions. After all, no Holy Father is infallible. And even a bunch of them saying the same thing won't convince me because they could all be wrong. After all, didn't they support slavery?)

WIN!!  laugh

Is this, in other words, an admission that you have no patristic support for your claims of any kind whatsoever?

Not at all. It is a comment on your refusal to accept any advice from the various people who have contributed to this thread who know more about iconography and have lived Orthodoxy for much longer than you've been alive. But, I guess, all that experience and discernment, and their willingness to help don't matter a hill of beans to an eighteen-year-old who knows everything.

I do feel sorry for you, James. There's something eating you, for sure. Talk to your priest about it.
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« Reply #144 on: May 28, 2012, 11:01:33 AM »

33 A.D. "Tell us, by what authority do you do these things?"

2012 A.D. "Tell me, what's your evidence from primary sources?" (Not that I'll even relent after that, since primary sources are still not above questions. After all, no Holy Father is infallible. And even a bunch of them saying the same thing won't convince me because they could all be wrong. After all, didn't they support slavery?)

WIN!!  laugh

Is this, in other words, an admission that you have no patristic support for your claims of any kind whatsoever?

Not at all. It is a comment on your refusal to accept any advice from the various people who have contributed to this thread who know more about iconography and have lived Orthodoxy for much longer than you've been alive. But, I guess, all that experience and discernment, and their willingness to help don't matter a hill of beans to an eighteen-year-old who knows everything.

I do feel sorry for you, James. There's something eating you, for sure. Talk to your priest about it.

How willing has anyone on this thread been to help me?  I've asked for patristic support, which you seem to believe you have, and have been given nothing but your opinions.  Unless you are a highly esteemed theologian, or are a glorified saint who's just really bored and posts on internet forums, your opinions are not the standard of Orthodoxy. 
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« Reply #145 on: May 28, 2012, 11:06:47 AM »

Then please, do enlighten us on what the standard of Orthodoxy is.
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« Reply #146 on: May 28, 2012, 11:10:00 AM »

Then please, do enlighten us on what the standard of Orthodoxy is.

The consensus of the Church as it has been held throughout the centuries. One way to know this consensus is to consult the writings of the Church Fathers and the other saints.  And since you said "Then please," I wonder if, perhaps, you actually did think your own opinion is the standard for Orthodoxy.

You've implied that you have patristic sources to back up your claims, I am inclined to think you are lying since you refuse to provide them.
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« Reply #147 on: May 28, 2012, 11:21:38 AM »

Quote
Although we can certainly learn much about the Faith by reading the Fathers, not everything that is passed on via Tradition is to be found in the Fathers, just as not everything passed on via Tradition is found in the Scriptures. In such fields as hymnography and iconography, two very important ways of preserving and passing on the Faith, I think we have to recognize that the way truth is passed on here is largely by the master teaching the novice.

What do you find wrong with PeterTheAleut's statement, which I agree with, and which I'm sure Liza, KShaft, Shanghaiski and age234 agree with? And which aspect of iconography are you disputing again? This thread has covered a broad area from the original OP.
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« Reply #148 on: May 28, 2012, 11:23:47 AM »

Quote
Although we can certainly learn much about the Faith by reading the Fathers, not everything that is passed on via Tradition is to be found in the Fathers, just as not everything passed on via Tradition is found in the Scriptures. In such fields as hymnography and iconography, two very important ways of preserving and passing on the Faith, I think we have to recognize that the way truth is passed on here is largely by the master teaching the novice.

What do you find wrong with PeterTheAleut's statement, which I agree with, and which I'm sure Liza, KShaft, Shanghaiski and age234 agree with? And which aspect of iconography are you disputing again? This thread has covered a broad area from the original OP.

I would say I would be extremely skeptical of a claim that, 2,000 years after the foundation of Christianity, there was not a single Father who wrote about iconography.  And what I'm disputing is your claim that an icon needs to be destroyed if an unprayerful person created it. 
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« Reply #149 on: May 28, 2012, 11:31:30 AM »

Quote
I would say I would be extremely skeptical of a claim that, 2,000 years after the foundation of Christianity, there was not a single Father who wrote about iconography.

Has anyone here said that? Only you have.
Quote
And what I'm disputing is your claim that an icon needs to be destroyed if an unprayerful person created it.


Do not put words in my mouth, I said nothing of the sort. What I have said is that the person who created the image referred to in the OP paints images in an iconographic style, which are not icons at all, but propaganda pieces which push his various agendas. Icons are painted to proclaim the truths of the Faith, and are not playthings made to serve pet causes. Such images deserve destruction.
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« Reply #150 on: May 28, 2012, 11:32:40 AM »

Quote
I would say I would be extremely skeptical of a claim that, 2,000 years after the foundation of Christianity, there was not a single Father who wrote about iconography.

Has anyone here said that? Only you have.
Quote
And what I'm disputing is your claim that an icon needs to be destroyed if an unprayerful person created it.


Do not put words in my mouth, I said nothing of the sort. What I have said is that the person who created the image referred to in the OP paints images in an iconographic style, which are not icons at all, but propaganda pieces which push his various agendas. Icons are painted to proclaim the truths of the Faith, and are not playthings made to serve pet causes. Such images deserve destruction.

Yet you have failed to prove how the icon in the OP is, in any way, a "propaganda piece"
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« Reply #151 on: May 28, 2012, 12:01:24 PM »

Quote
I would say I would be extremely skeptical of a claim that, 2,000 years after the foundation of Christianity, there was not a single Father who wrote about iconography.

Has anyone here said that? Only you have.
Quote
And what I'm disputing is your claim that an icon needs to be destroyed if an unprayerful person created it.


Do not put words in my mouth, I said nothing of the sort. What I have said is that the person who created the image referred to in the OP paints images in an iconographic style, which are not icons at all, but propaganda pieces which push his various agendas. Icons are painted to proclaim the truths of the Faith, and are not playthings made to serve pet causes. Such images deserve destruction.

Yet you have failed to prove how the icon in the OP is, in any way, a "propaganda piece"

Yet again, you are choosing not to see what is right in front of you. What will convince you that the work of Robert Lentz, an artist who has no qualms in using his tainted art to defy the teachings of even his own church, and who consistently violates established iconographic principles which he publicly proclaims, has no merit, and is unsuitable for veneration?
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« Reply #152 on: May 28, 2012, 12:03:38 PM »

Quote
I would say I would be extremely skeptical of a claim that, 2,000 years after the foundation of Christianity, there was not a single Father who wrote about iconography.

Has anyone here said that? Only you have.
Quote
And what I'm disputing is your claim that an icon needs to be destroyed if an unprayerful person created it.


Do not put words in my mouth, I said nothing of the sort. What I have said is that the person who created the image referred to in the OP paints images in an iconographic style, which are not icons at all, but propaganda pieces which push his various agendas. Icons are painted to proclaim the truths of the Faith, and are not playthings made to serve pet causes. Such images deserve destruction.

Yet you have failed to prove how the icon in the OP is, in any way, a "propaganda piece"

Yet again, you are choosing not to see what is right in front of you. What will convince you that the work of Robert Lentz, an artist who has no qualms in using his tainted art to defy the teachings of even his own church, and who consistently violates established iconographic principles which he publicly proclaims, has no merit, and is unsuitable for veneration?

You are discussing his work in general, I am discussing this particular work.  What about this particular work is unsuitable? 
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« Reply #153 on: May 28, 2012, 12:26:28 PM »

Thank you for taking the time LBK. His thoughts appear to be disorganized. Based on what you quoted I see no rational basis for his work. I will note that I have met Roman Catholic native Americans with ideas similar to the Quetzalcoatl text.  The Celtic Trinity reminded me of Robert Grave's White Goddess which I have no recollection of after 30 years except that women ruled and that the male consort was sacrificed at some interval I cannot remember.

What is my concern is the lack of a personal statement by Robert Lentz . Perhaps I missed it. It would be nice to learn what he considers to be outreach illustrations vs iconograohy.

Opus, here's an excerpt of Robert Lent's own publicity material in italics, with bold sections my emphasis. These italicized statements are completely proper and correct. Following each paragraph are examples in color of his own words on images he has painted which contradict these principles:

The constancy of the Christian faith is reflected in its art. The icon is steeped in tradition. We all can imagine the ancient scribe carefully copying letter by letter the ancient religious texts. In a similar way the iconographer follows that which was before him. The artist’s creativity comes in to play not through creating the “novel”, but in the freedom to manipulate line, color, and form for a directed purpose: the expression of the truth and vision of the Church.

In the sacred history of Meso-America, a Christ-like figure dominates the spiritual horizon. His name is Quetzalcoatl, which means the Plumed Serpent. Quetzalcoatl is one of the most ancient concepts of God in this region. He reconciles in himself heaven and earth. He is the creator of humankind and the giver of agriculture and the fine arts.

In the tenth century, a Toltec priest named Quetzalcoatl acquired a large following in the Valley of Mexico. He opposed both human sacrifice and warfare, promoting instead the arts and self-discipline as a means for coming closer to God. This made him many enemies among the ruling classes. They brought about his downfall, but he confounded them by rising from the dead, after being consumed in a sacred fire. His heart became the morning star, and he himself became young once again. He promised to return one day to his people.

The stories of Quetzalcoatl and Christ are so similar that it is easy to see one in the other. In this icon, both Quetzalcoatl and Christ are depicted in the same guise. It is a resurrection icon, with their heart ascending from the flames of death and rebirth. Around the edge, in gold leaf, is an ancient Aztec depiction of the Plumed Serpent. Red and black are the colors the Aztecs associated with the morning star.

Quetzalcoatl and Christ bring us the same timeless message: God is closer to us than we are to ourselves. In both their lives, our human condition has been joined inseparably to the divine. Each proclaims to us a simple gospel of compassion, and invites us to dance with God in the divine fire burning in each of our hearts.




In declaring and preserving the Christian faith, personal expression does not play a role.



In the Byzantine Church, references to Wisdom are considered references to Christ. Churches like Hagia Sophia in Istanbul are dedicated to Christ. From the Middle Ages on, icons depicting Christ as an androgynous figure, flanked by Mary and John the Baptist, have been painted in Russia & elsewhere. It is important now to take the next step and depict Wisdom -- Sophia -- as the woman Sacred Scriptures describe.

Looking honestly at our ancient tradition, it is clear that the mystery of Christ cannot be described in masculine terms alone. Because of historical and cultural circumstances, the Second Person of the Trinity became a male human being. Before the Incarnation, however, that person was described as "she." As the Incarnation continues to unfold after Christ’s resurrection and ascension, it is again the feminine Sophia who expresses the mystery -- as pointed out by the Russian theologian Soloviev.


By what authority does Lentz presume to paint Christ as a woman? He also ignores the fact that Sophianism, as promoted by Soloviev and Bulgakov, is a declared heresy in the Orthodox Church.

The term Father is symbolic, and it is also the term used by Christ Himself to refer to the first Person of the Holy Trinity during His life on earth. While the word wisdom is of the feminine gender in Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Slavonic (as well as a number of modern languages), it is purely a grammatical gender, and any notion that this somehow denotes “the divine feminine” is mistaken. The second Person of the Holy Trinity before the Incarnation was also described as the Word, in Greek Logos. What then would these “progressives” make of Logos, which is masculine in the Greek language? And is of various grammatical genders in other languages, ancient and modern?

What is most important is being faithful to the truths of the Christian faith.

The profusion of images this man has painted which violate Christian truths shows his hypocrisy in high relief. Painting Christ in pagan form, painting saints as homosexual lovers (Sts Sergius and Bacchus), painting non-Christians as saints (Gandhi, Einstein, Rumi the founder of the Sufi sect of Islam), mythological figures as saints (Merlin) ..... And then there's "Saint" Harvey Milk, "keeping vigil for himself and for all oppressed homosexuals" (Harvey Milk was murdered because of his homosexuality and advocacy for gays, not because he was defending the Christian faith. Big difference)

His spiel on the Sergius and Bacchus image:



Sts. Sergius and Bacchus are ancient Christian martyrs who were tortured to death in Syria because they refused to attend sacrifices in honor of Jupiter. Recent attention to early Greek manuscripts has also revealed that they were openly gay men and that they were erastai or lovers. These manuscripts are found in various libraries in Europe and indicate an earlier Christian acceptance of homosexuality.

After their arrest, the two saints were paraded through city streets in women’s clothing, treatment that was meant to humiliate them as officers in the Roman army. They were then separated and each was tortured. Bacchus died first and appeared that night to Sergius who was beginning to lose heart. According to the early manuscripts, Bacchus told Sergius to persevere, that the delights of heaven were greater than any suffering, and that part of their reward would be to be reunited in heaven as lovers.


The bolded words contradict Mark 12:25, on marriage and heaven: For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as angels in heaven. Homosexual activity has always been, and remains, sinful in the eyes of both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches.

The Christian message and vision of life and hope does not change with each new era and fad, nor does the vision of the icon.

Celtic Trinity (which also bears the Greek inscription I Aghia Trias (Holy Trinity) in the upper corners):


 
From ancient times human beings have responded to experiences with the divine with works of art. They have used metaphor and image to describe what they have "seen." Individual expressions of personal experiences of the divine have often challenged rigid religious traditions.

The spiritual genius of many ethnic groups through the centuries has been responsible for profound images of faith. Drawings on walls of prehistoric caves are powerful witnesses to highly developed spiritual sentiments of peoples who lived before the traditional religions of the East and West.

The civilizations of the Americas which flourished prior to the arrival of Columbus and missionaries from Europe were routinely destroyed. Images of faith were often condemned before any attempt was made to understand the experience which gave birth to these images of the spirit. Religious authorities, urged by patriarchal bias, were especially fearful of the role of feminine images in these primitive yet often highly evolved cultures. Male clerics and theologians were careful to exercise control over the images to be used in worship and devotions.

Native Americans, Africans, Asians, and early Europeans saw their religious traditions and images cast aside in favor of the Christian images current at the time. Treasures of faith were lost as cultures were systematically destroyed by colonists and conquerors.

A beautiful image from ancient Celtic religious experience was God as a trinity of women. The Maiden gave birth to creation. The Mother nurtured and protected it, and the Crone brought it wisely to its end. A raven accompanied the Crone as a symbol of life and death: though it ate dead things, it flew high into the heavens. The three women are depicted from different races to extend the Celtic image to a more global perspective. The snake was another sacred feminine image. It represented life, fertility, and rejuvenation. Devouring its own tail, it represented immortality.

Feminine images have suffered greatly in the west. Women will continue to suffer oppression in religious society until their images have been reclaimed and honored. These feminine insights can help to present a new healing perspective on the problems that face our modern world.


So what is Lentz doing painting the Holy Trinity in syncretistic, politically-correct terms? The most restrained comment that can be made about this image is that it is cultural relativism gone mad. Are pagan, New Age ideas and feminist influences just as valid as proper theology? This is particularly intolerable when such a heretical image is put on an equal footing with the sublime and incomparable Holy Trinity painted by St Andrei of Radonezh (Andrei Rublyev).

There's enough heretical and blasphemous material in Robert Lentz's portfolio to fill a book with analysis and critique. It is clear that he, through his works and words, repeatedly violates the very iconographic principles he supposedly espouses. It is impossible to conclude he is doing so in honest ignorance. So much of his work is tainted by his own agendas and causes, that all his work must be regarded as suspect, and avoided. He cannot serve two masters.

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« Reply #154 on: May 28, 2012, 12:43:02 PM »

33 A.D. "Tell us, by what authority do you do these things?"

2012 A.D. "Tell me, what's your evidence from primary sources?" (Not that I'll even relent after that, since primary sources are still not above questions. After all, no Holy Father is infallible. And even a bunch of them saying the same thing won't convince me because they could all be wrong. After all, didn't they support slavery?)

WIN!!  laugh

Is this, in other words, an admission that you have no patristic support for your claims of any kind whatsoever?

Not at all. It is a comment on your refusal to accept any advice from the various people who have contributed to this thread who know more about iconography and have lived Orthodoxy for much longer than you've been alive. But, I guess, all that experience and discernment, and their willingness to help don't matter a hill of beans to an eighteen-year-old who knows everything.

I do feel sorry for you, James. There's something eating you, for sure. Talk to your priest about it.

How willing has anyone on this thread been to help me?
I tried to help you. Cry
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« Reply #155 on: May 28, 2012, 01:43:46 PM »



 I think everyone here should stop talking to this troll. Hes obviously a legend in his own mind.  I knew from my second post he would be like this. Thats why I washed my hands of him. Just another product of a weak entitlement society in which he thinks everybody owes him something, wants it now, and his way. Compromised by un Orthodox moral pluralism for the sake of political correctness. The Veruca Salt of OC.net. Someone push him on the scale already.

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« Reply #156 on: May 28, 2012, 01:53:28 PM »



 I think everyone here should stop talking to this troll. Hes obviously a legend in his own mind.  I knew from my second post he would be like this. Thats why I washed my hands of him. Just another product of a weak entitlement society in which he thinks everybody owes him something, wants it now, and his way. Compromised by un Orthodox moral pluralism for the sake of political correctness. The Veruca Salt of OC.net. Someone push him on the scale already.



Your own words condemn you with the same condemnation you attempt to place on my head.
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« Reply #157 on: May 28, 2012, 02:03:33 PM »



 I think everyone here should stop talking to this troll. Hes obviously a legend in his own mind.  I knew from my second post he would be like this. Thats why I washed my hands of him. Just another product of a weak entitlement society in which he thinks everybody owes him something, wants it now, and his way. Compromised by un Orthodox moral pluralism for the sake of political correctness. The Veruca Salt of OC.net. Someone push him on the scale already.



Your own words condemn you with the same condemnation you attempt to place on my head.

No Ill be judged by such standards.  I listen to people with more experience than me, and I dont think the world revolves around me, and I dont demand things from others, other than their very best in all they do.
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« Reply #158 on: May 28, 2012, 02:12:02 PM »



 I think everyone here should stop talking to this troll. Hes obviously a legend in his own mind.  I knew from my second post he would be like this. Thats why I washed my hands of him. Just another product of a weak entitlement society in which he thinks everybody owes him something, wants it now, and his way. Compromised by un Orthodox moral pluralism for the sake of political correctness. The Veruca Salt of OC.net. Someone push him on the scale already.


Even considering some of the things I said to and about JamesRottnek on this thread, I think this personal attack unwarranted and unfair.
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« Reply #159 on: May 28, 2012, 02:15:48 PM »



 I think everyone here should stop talking to this troll. Hes obviously a legend in his own mind.  I knew from my second post he would be like this. Thats why I washed my hands of him. Just another product of a weak entitlement society in which he thinks everybody owes him something, wants it now, and his way. Compromised by un Orthodox moral pluralism for the sake of political correctness. The Veruca Salt of OC.net. Someone push him on the scale already.


Even considering some of the things I said to and about JamesRottnek on this thread, I think this personal attack unwarranted and unfair.

unless you show me a patristic quote saying this is unwarranted and unfair, I will not yield sir. 

I kid. If that is the case then I humbly apologize.
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« Reply #160 on: May 28, 2012, 02:20:49 PM »



 I think everyone here should stop talking to this troll. Hes obviously a legend in his own mind.  I knew from my second post he would be like this. Thats why I washed my hands of him. Just another product of a weak entitlement society in which he thinks everybody owes him something, wants it now, and his way. Compromised by un Orthodox moral pluralism for the sake of political correctness. The Veruca Salt of OC.net. Someone push him on the scale already.


Even considering some of the things I said to and about JamesRottnek on this thread, I think this personal attack unwarranted and unfair.

unless you show me a patristic quote saying this is unwarranted and unfair, I will not yield sir.  

I kid. If that is the case then I humbly apologize.
Yes, there is a big difference between attempting to correct someone for the intellectual pride that keeps him from learning from those more experienced on the one hand and simply attacking him as a stereotypical troll on the other.
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« Reply #161 on: May 28, 2012, 02:58:10 PM »



 I think everyone here should stop talking to this troll. Hes obviously a legend in his own mind.  I knew from my second post he would be like this. Thats why I washed my hands of him. Just another product of a weak entitlement society in which he thinks everybody owes him something, wants it now, and his way. Compromised by un Orthodox moral pluralism for the sake of political correctness. The Veruca Salt of OC.net. Someone push him on the scale already.


Even considering some of the things I said to and about JamesRottnek on this thread, I think this personal attack unwarranted and unfair.

unless you show me a patristic quote saying this is unwarranted and unfair, I will not yield sir.  

I kid. If that is the case then I humbly apologize.
Yes, there is a big difference between attempting to correct someone for the intellectual pride that keeps him from learning from those more experienced on the one hand and simply attacking him as a stereotypical troll on the other.

Well seriously if someone keeps answering the exact same way for every answer, what else do you call that?  "Show me the Fathers!". Im not Jerry McGuire.  If he were humble about it I might believe it is intellectual curiosity. However his foot stomping demands sound like a spoiled child, which most teens are nowadays, but I suspect its just an excuse to carry on his un-Orthodox worldview, demanding in essence we accept it as fine when indeed it is not.
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« Reply #162 on: May 28, 2012, 03:19:31 PM »



 I think everyone here should stop talking to this troll. Hes obviously a legend in his own mind.  I knew from my second post he would be like this. Thats why I washed my hands of him. Just another product of a weak entitlement society in which he thinks everybody owes him something, wants it now, and his way. Compromised by un Orthodox moral pluralism for the sake of political correctness. The Veruca Salt of OC.net. Someone push him on the scale already.


Even considering some of the things I said to and about JamesRottnek on this thread, I think this personal attack unwarranted and unfair.

unless you show me a patristic quote saying this is unwarranted and unfair, I will not yield sir.  

I kid. If that is the case then I humbly apologize.
Yes, there is a big difference between attempting to correct someone for the intellectual pride that keeps him from learning from those more experienced on the one hand and simply attacking him as a stereotypical troll on the other.

Well seriously if someone keeps answering the exact same way for every answer, what else do you call that?  "Show me the Fathers!". Im not Jerry McGuire.  If he were humble about it I might believe it is intellectual curiosity. However his foot stomping demands sound like a spoiled child, which most teens are nowadays, but I suspect its just an excuse to carry on his un-Orthodox worldview, demanding in essence we accept it as fine when indeed it is not.

Perhaps I keep requesting patristic support for the claims of LBK because no one has offered any, nor has anyone said "There are none." If my "foot stomping" is reminiscent of "a spoiled child," then I wonder how you see your own quite aggressive attack on me.

EDIT: And while, I'd note, you say I am lacking in humility, I don't really see any evidence of it in your own posting.
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« Reply #163 on: May 28, 2012, 03:50:16 PM »

Quote
I would say I would be extremely skeptical of a claim that, 2,000 years after the foundation of Christianity, there was not a single Father who wrote about iconography.

Has anyone here said that? Only you have.
Quote
And what I'm disputing is your claim that an icon needs to be destroyed if an unprayerful person created it.


Do not put words in my mouth, I said nothing of the sort. What I have said is that the person who created the image referred to in the OP paints images in an iconographic style, which are not icons at all, but propaganda pieces which push his various agendas. Icons are painted to proclaim the truths of the Faith, and are not playthings made to serve pet causes. Such images deserve destruction.

Yet you have failed to prove how the icon in the OP is, in any way, a "propaganda piece"

Yet again, you are choosing not to see what is right in front of you. What will convince you that the work of Robert Lentz, an artist who has no qualms in using his tainted art to defy the teachings of even his own church, and who consistently violates established iconographic principles which he publicly proclaims, has no merit, and is unsuitable for veneration?

You are discussing his work in general, I am discussing this particular work.  What about this particular work is unsuitable? 

I suspect there is nothing wrong with the painted image. The artists motives are perhaps suspect and/or erratic. Perhaps you shouldn't venerate it but there is no reason not to keep  it as far as I can see.
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« Reply #164 on: May 28, 2012, 04:10:21 PM »



 I think everyone here should stop talking to this troll. Hes obviously a legend in his own mind.  I knew from my second post he would be like this. Thats why I washed my hands of him. Just another product of a weak entitlement society in which he thinks everybody owes him something, wants it now, and his way. Compromised by un Orthodox moral pluralism for the sake of political correctness. The Veruca Salt of OC.net. Someone push him on the scale already.


Even considering some of the things I said to and about JamesRottnek on this thread, I think this personal attack unwarranted and unfair.

unless you show me a patristic quote saying this is unwarranted and unfair, I will not yield sir.  

I kid. If that is the case then I humbly apologize.
Yes, there is a big difference between attempting to correct someone for the intellectual pride that keeps him from learning from those more experienced on the one hand and simply attacking him as a stereotypical troll on the other.

Well seriously if someone keeps answering the exact same way for every answer, what else do you call that?
There are actually a number of ways I could choose to identify James's behavior on this thread. I don't think he's trying to elicit an emotional response from us, so in my mind that rules out trolling. I'm also guilty of having done what he's doing here, so I can tell you from my own experience that his actions don't fit any of your trite stereotypes.  

"Show me the Fathers!". Im not Jerry McGuire.  If he were humble about it I might believe it is intellectual curiosity. However his foot stomping demands sound like a spoiled child, which most teens are nowadays,
JamesRottnek is not "most teens". Whatever his real name is, he is an individual person who posts on this forum under the pseudonym JamesRottnek and deserves to be treated as a unique individual and not hit with the stereotypes you have attached to him, stereotypes that show no real attempt to know his real motivations.

but I suspect its just an excuse to carry on his un-Orthodox worldview, demanding in essence we accept it as fine when indeed it is not.
Actually, I don't think we know enough about his worldview to be able to call it un-Orthodox. If anything, the worldview James has shown on this thread is really quite Orthodox, as far as it goes. I just don't think it goes far enough in that it attempts to limit authority to only a couple of channels.
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« Reply #165 on: May 28, 2012, 04:13:32 PM »

Actually, for the record, JamesRottnek is not really a pseudonym, just my first and last names without a space in between them.
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« Reply #166 on: May 28, 2012, 04:19:08 PM »

Now to throw everyone a curve ball.

Fr. Seraphim Rose once said (quoting St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco), "'I can pray in front of one kind of icon and I can pray in front of another kind of icon.'  The important thing is that we pray, not that we pride ourselves on having good icons."  (Hieromonk Damascene, Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works, p. 307)

How are we to relate to this modern saint's (John Maximovitch) insight into what it means to venerate an icon? Are we to refuse to venerate an icon and/or destroy it simply because it was painted badly or in a way not in accordance with the iconographic tradition?
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« Reply #167 on: May 28, 2012, 05:43:25 PM »

Now to throw everyone a curve ball.

Fr. Seraphim Rose once said (quoting St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco), "'I can pray in front of one kind of icon and I can pray in front of another kind of icon.'  The important thing is that we pray, not that we pride ourselves on having good icons."  (Hieromonk Damascene, Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works, p. 307)

How are we to relate to this modern saint's (John Maximovitch) insight into what it means to venerate an icon? Are we to refuse to venerate an icon and/or destroy it simply because it was painted badly or in a way not in accordance with the iconographic tradition?

That is a good question. I usually don't find imagery that falls outside of Orthodox iconographic norms or simply not that well painted to be that offensive. I have no problem accepting something outside of our norms if it is a matter of culture (some traditional forms of western art, the use of statues as a means to venerate the prototype, the Sacred Heart as a means expressing Christ's love for mankind, etc), but I have a hard time finding a defense for certain things like declaring the sainthood of a non-Christian or overt social-political statements meant to undermine the teaching and practice of the Church.
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« Reply #168 on: May 28, 2012, 09:13:43 PM »

Now to throw everyone a curve ball.

Fr. Seraphim Rose once said (quoting St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco), "'I can pray in front of one kind of icon and I can pray in front of another kind of icon.'  The important thing is that we pray, not that we pride ourselves on having good icons."  (Hieromonk Damascene, Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works, p. 307)

The two icon types St John was referring to were the two styles of icons - naturalistic and non-naturalistic. This is not the matter being discussed on this thread.

How are we to relate to this modern saint's (John Maximovitch) insight into what it means to venerate an icon? Are we to refuse to venerate an icon and/or destroy it simply because it was painted badly or in a way not in accordance with the iconographic tradition?

If an image has been made with dubious intent, and/or its content does not conform with Orthodox teaching, then yes, refraining from venerating it is our obligation. To a non-Orthodox person, it is iconography which is the single most visible and definitive element which distinguishes the Orthodox Church from all others. It is our responsibility to ensure this holy and priceless treasure of our Church is preserved and defended against the influx of elements foreign to Orthodox belief and doctrine. The iconodules who suffered and often paid with their lives during the iconoclastic upheavals of past centuries deserve nothing less in their honor. Unfortunately, all too often, iconography is the most poorly-understood facet of Orthodoxy, despite it being the most visible, thus the perpetuation of unsuitable images.

I am heartened that in the city where I live, the older churches are gradually replacing their suspect or uncanonical imagery with proper icons. It takes time and careful education, and it can be done.

I take "painted badly" to mean shortcomings in artistic technique, not content. Often there is a fine line between "rustic" and "ugly". But praying before a roughly-painted icon painted with love, humility and prayer is fine. Praying before an image by an accomplished hand, but made with dubious or heretical intent is unacceptable.

There is so much rotten fruit produced by Robert Lentz and his counterpart William Hart McNichols that none of it can be trusted. The sinister aspect is that what they produce is all shiny and polished on the outside, yet inside is infested and putrid. Where is the obedience, the humility, the submission to the Church (even their own church!) for these men? They have no qualms at all in repeatedly violating the very principles they proclaim, so why give any credence to anything they do?

Consider this: If a hymnographer were to write hymns reflecting a sociopolitical view, or promoting a particular cause, would it be OK for such hymns to be used in private or liturgical devotions?
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« Reply #169 on: May 29, 2012, 05:26:08 PM »


So, James...what exactly is the point of contention here?

I am assuming you would agree with the Church teachings that the icon is a "window to Heaven"....that is should focus more on the spiritual than the physical....which is why our Byzantine style of icons depict the individuals slightly disproportionate...and always leading, focusing and pointing to Christ and salvation.  

More modern icons, as used in many RC churches focus on the physical.  You can see the glowing skin, the sparkle in the eye, the flowing hair....all of which might distract the viewer from the spiritual aspect of their purpose.  If it distracts...then it's not an icon...but, religious "art" and nothing more.

In regards to this particular icon (OP):



It does distract, per it's own description from salvation and the teachings of the church.

It's not the "style" that is "wrong", but, the message behind the painting.

If you read the description given by the painter:

"“O Jonathan, in your death I am stricken,
I am desolated for you, Jonathan, my brother.
Very dear to me you were,
your love to me more wonderful
than the love of a woman.”


Times have changed since these events were recorded, and such intense love between two men makes many uncomfortable in our day. For gay men who struggle to remain within the Judaeo-Christian tradition, however, the love between Jonathan and David is an inspiration and strength."

This is MEANT to represent homosexuality....and he's trying to depict it as blessed by Christ.

He is using the style of an icon to send a message, as he does with ALL his supposed "icons".

They are not to glorify God and His Church....but, to spread the message of Mr. Lentz.  

It's shameful.

Once again, it's not the "style" of the "icon", nor is it the individuals depicted on it....it is the purpose behind it.
It's not whether the painter of it prayed or fasted (even though that would have been optimal)...but once again....it is the goal of the image....is it to direct you towards Christ and salvation, or to pull you away from His teachings?

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« Reply #170 on: May 29, 2012, 06:29:29 PM »

Did Jonathan and David not love each other?  David certainly seemed to express a great deal of love for Jonathan, I always assumed this was reciprocal; why assume two men who love each other are sexually linked?  In fact, Jonathan and David are a perfect example for homosexual men seeking to stay within the Christian tradition, because Jonathan and David had a non-sexual relationship, but yet a quite intimate and close relationship; or do you think gay men should cut themselves off from all other men?
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« Reply #171 on: May 29, 2012, 06:55:21 PM »

Did Jonathan and David not love each other?  David certainly seemed to express a great deal of love for Jonathan, I always assumed this was reciprocal; why assume two men who love each other are sexually linked?  In fact, Jonathan and David are a perfect example for homosexual men seeking to stay within the Christian tradition, because Jonathan and David had a non-sexual relationship, but yet a quite intimate and close relationship; or do you think gay men should cut themselves off from all other men?

Here is the bottom line. The artist is using this image as a vehicle to promote, glorify, and bless something that neither the Orthodox Church nor the Roman Catholic Church (with which the artist claims unity) promotes, glorifies, or blesses. This isn't a matter of culture, misunderstanding, or something that can be reassigned an Orthodox understanding. This is a matter of overtly turning the truth into a lie.

The bolded part of your statement is the truth about David and Jonathan. This is the exact opposite of the message that the artist is promoting with the image in question - that God does promote, glorify, and bless homosexual relationships using these two man es an example.
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« Reply #172 on: May 29, 2012, 07:24:42 PM »

Did Jonathan and David not love each other?  David certainly seemed to express a great deal of love for Jonathan, I always assumed this was reciprocal; why assume two men who love each other are sexually linked?  In fact, Jonathan and David are a perfect example for homosexual men seeking to stay within the Christian tradition, because Jonathan and David had a non-sexual relationship, but yet a quite intimate and close relationship; or do you think gay men should cut themselves off from all other men?

Once again, read what I wrote.

There's nothing wrong with the icon, nor the individuals depicted. What IS wrong is the skewed message that icon is being used to promote.  When it is used to preach against the Church's teachings, it ceases to be an icon, and simply turns into propaganda.

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« Reply #173 on: May 29, 2012, 07:27:26 PM »

Did Jonathan and David not love each other?  David certainly seemed to express a great deal of love for Jonathan, I always assumed this was reciprocal; why assume two men who love each other are sexually linked?  In fact, Jonathan and David are a perfect example for homosexual men seeking to stay within the Christian tradition, because Jonathan and David had a non-sexual relationship, but yet a quite intimate and close relationship; or do you think gay men should cut themselves off from all other men?

Once again, read what I wrote.

There's nothing wrong with the icon, nor the individuals depicted. What IS wrong is the skewed message that icon is being used to promote.  When it is used to preach against the Church's teachings, it ceases to be an icon, and simply turns into propaganda.



What, in the description you quoted, was wrong?  That "O Jonathan..." comes from, if I'm not mistaken, second Samuel.  So how, exactly, have you come to the conclusion that this image is being used to preach against the Church?
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« Reply #174 on: May 29, 2012, 07:28:13 PM »

It is telling to note what is written on the scrolls held by Jonathan and David. To elaborate on what Liza said, icons draw us to God, through the saints who, by their lives and conduct, have drawn as close to God as human beings can. What is written on their scrolls reflects their sacrifice (particularly of martyrs), their humility, their forbearance, and other Godly/Christ-like virtues. Their hands point towards the cross or Gospel book in their hands, or their hand is shown close to the body, palm outward, signifying their humility, rejection of worldliness, and submission and deference to the will of God.

By contrast, what do we see in Robert Lentz's painting? The two figures talking amongst themselves. It's all about them and their relationship, not about their relationship with God. It's a selfish painting, and a shameful one, in that holy people have been appropriated by the artist to reflect his own ideology.

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« Reply #175 on: May 29, 2012, 08:09:58 PM »


James, I think you are no longer wondering about validity of the icon, as your arguments don't seem to focus around the iconography, but, about theological aspects.

There is nothing wrong with two men having a strong friendship. In fact, we should always all be friends.

However, both artist and seller are pushing this "icon" as a "gay" thing, when the actual affection between these two men was never of that nature.

Take a look at the icon of Sts. Peter and Paul embracing. There's no hint of anything more than the joy of friendship, and their bond doesn't depict Christ blessing their "friendship."

This one in contrast, is MADE to make you wonder a out Christ blessing a male union. It is used by many to support gay union.

If you don't see that, than there's no point to this discussion.

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« Reply #176 on: May 29, 2012, 08:14:00 PM »


James, I think you are no longer wondering about validity of the icon, as your arguments don't seem to focus around the iconography, but, about theological aspects.

There is nothing wrong with two men having a strong friendship. In fact, we should always all be friends.

However, both artist and seller are pushing this "icon" as a "gay" thing, when the actual affection between these two men was never of that nature.

Take a look at the icon of Sts. Peter and Paul embracing. There's no hint of anything more than the joy of friendship, and their bond doesn't depict Christ blessing their "friendship."

This one in contrast, is MADE to make you wonder a out Christ blessing a male union. It is used by many to support gay union.

If you don't see that, than there's no point to this discussion.



http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/icons/Icons-Bacchus.htm  Scroll down a little ways and there's an icon of Sts. Sergius and Bacchus with a similar image of the face of Christ.

But anyway, you are right: there is no point to this discussion; there seems to have been no progress despite four pages.
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« Reply #177 on: May 29, 2012, 08:17:31 PM »

There are none so blind as those who will not see ....  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #178 on: May 29, 2012, 08:21:24 PM »

There are none so blind as those who will not see ....  Roll Eyes

Thank you for your helpful contribution to this discussion; as with the rest of your contributions it was filled with information and sources to back up your claims; thank you so very, very much for all the exceptional work you do promoting Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #179 on: May 29, 2012, 09:16:19 PM »


James, I think you are no longer wondering about validity of the icon, as your arguments don't seem to focus around the iconography, but, about theological aspects.

There is nothing wrong with two men having a strong friendship. In fact, we should always all be friends.

However, both artist and seller are pushing this "icon" as a "gay" thing, when the actual affection between these two men was never of that nature.

Take a look at the icon of Sts. Peter and Paul embracing. There's no hint of anything more than the joy of friendship, and their bond doesn't depict Christ blessing their "friendship."

This one in contrast, is MADE to make you wonder a out Christ blessing a male union. It is used by many to support gay union.

If you don't see that, than there's no point to this discussion.



http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/icons/Icons-Bacchus.htm  Scroll down a little ways and there's an icon of Sts. Sergius and Bacchus with a similar image of the face of Christ.

But anyway, you are right: there is no point to this discussion; there seems to have been no progress despite four pages.

Just because there's another similar icon doesn't make either one "right". 

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« Reply #180 on: May 29, 2012, 11:55:18 PM »


James, I think you are no longer wondering about validity of the icon, as your arguments don't seem to focus around the iconography, but, about theological aspects.

There is nothing wrong with two men having a strong friendship. In fact, we should always all be friends.

However, both artist and seller are pushing this "icon" as a "gay" thing, when the actual affection between these two men was never of that nature.

Take a look at the icon of Sts. Peter and Paul embracing. There's no hint of anything more than the joy of friendship, and their bond doesn't depict Christ blessing their "friendship."

This one in contrast, is MADE to make you wonder a out Christ blessing a male union. It is used by many to support gay union.

If you don't see that, than there's no point to this discussion.



http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/icons/Icons-Bacchus.htm  Scroll down a little ways and there's an icon of Sts. Sergius and Bacchus with a similar image of the face of Christ.

But anyway, you are right: there is no point to this discussion; there seems to have been no progress despite four pages.

Just because there's another similar icon doesn't make either one  Robert Lentz's painting "right".  

Fixed it for you, Liza.  Smiley
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« Reply #181 on: May 30, 2012, 12:16:41 AM »

There are none so blind as those who will not see ....  Roll Eyes

Thank you for your helpful contribution to this discussion; as with the rest of your contributions it was filled with information and sources to back up your claims; thank you so very, very much for all the exceptional work you do promoting Orthodoxy.
Sarcasm not your gig?
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« Reply #182 on: May 30, 2012, 12:50:27 AM »

There are none so blind as those who will not see ....  Roll Eyes

Thank you for your helpful contribution to this discussion; as with the rest of your contributions it was filled with information and sources to back up your claims; thank you so very, very much for all the exceptional work you do promoting Orthodoxy.

Thank you for your efforts to divide Orthodoxy.   Smiley  The Franciscans are waiting.... Oh, they refer to Lentz's "art" as "artwork" rather than iconography.  You can go to Houston and check out his "icons."
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