Conversion and waiting on spouses

[Dave in McKinney]

I was listening to some AFR the other day and it mentioned that many priests say not to attend DL without their spouse.  Usually its the men that want to attend first.  And that some need to wait years and years on their spouse. 
  I wonder what do they do in the interim?  Obviously read the bible, the fathers etc  I also assume morning & evening prayers, fasting, and work on... well growing in Christ.
  I ask this because I'm an RC, and wife while she came into RC church, she is really still a Protestant at heart.  I have a couple of EC churches but they are rather far, and a couple of EO churches closer.  (the issue of EC or EO aside) I believe my wife is wanting to go back to Protestant churches for some rather good reasons.  So I'm wondering how to live an Orthodox life in the interim until God calls us both to a church home.
  Thank you!

[witega]

This is definitely an ask your priest type question (or, if you have yet to settle on one parish, then an 'ask the priests' question). Not because the priest will give you better advice than a bunch of strangers on the internet (though that's quite likely), but because it's one of those priests who will actually be working with you and your situation in preparing you for reception and making the decisions about when that will be.

That said, the Church certainly prefers to receive couples together. 2000 years of pastoral experience says that generally works out better for all concerned. And so when a couple is approaching Orthodoxy at different paces, it's quite common to delay the reception of one until the other is ready as well (and not only for couples--just recently our junior priest was telling some of us about when he was an inquirer/catachumen and told his parents that he was definitely converting to Orthodoxy. That got their interest so they started attending and became catachumens at the same parish. And in the end, the priest had to wait until his parents had caught up and they were all received together). But when only one member of the couple is converting, and the other has absolutely no interest or willingness to do the same, I have never heard of a priest making the converting spouse wait indefinitely on an event that may never happen before receiving them (and I know most of the priests and plenty of converts in the Metroplex area).

In the same way, the Church certainly wants you to bring your spouse to Liturgy with you, whether she's converting or not, even if she's only coming because you asked and not from any interest of her own. But if she simply won't come, I've never heard of a priest telling the believing spouse to not come just because the spouse won't.

[Timon]

Ive heard of many stories, and even met people in real life, who converted to Orthodoxy without their spouse.  Ive never heard anyone say you have to have your spouse completely on board.  My wife isnt really on board and Ill likely be converting soon.  She doesnt mind if I do it though.  Maybe it would be a little different if for some reason she really didnt want me to convert.

[age234]

I know several couples who have been in this situation. It was tough at first, but all of them eventually agreed to go their separate ways, religiously speaking, and attend different churches.

I'm personally of a mind that, while the marital relationship is of utmost importance and a common faith should be shared if at all possible, nevertheless it is not fair for one spouse to demand the other to violate their conscience or their faith. It is better to attend different churches than for one to force the other to attend a church they don't subscribe to.

It is even more complicated when kids are involved, because they have to basically choose a side, and it's a big decision for young kids to make. In most cases, the conversion process takes a lot longer, to allow for the family to get comfortable and sort things out.

And incidentally, I only personally know of one couple in which a wife became Orthodox without her husband. The opposite seems much more common.

[NicholasMyra]

I believe my wife is wanting to go back to Protestant churches for some rather good reasons. 
  Thank you!

What reasons?

[NMHS]

I have not converted yet but I suppose God willing it will be soon. My wife is a life long Hispanic RC and I converted to RC from Protestantism.  I've been learning about Orthodoxy for the last 4+years and became serious about conversion two years ago.

My Priest asked me to become a catechumenate this past Great Lent but in order for the hopes of my wife warming up a little bit more I opted to wait awhile longer.  My Priest hopes that my wife will become more open to Orthodoxy but he will not hold off my conversion because my spouse isn't going to convert.

My hopes are no longer hopes.  My wife will vehemently remain RC while I pursue conversion to Orthodoxy .  As many people have said in these situations "walking the fence can make a person crazy".  Unlike other women that have supported their husbands in thier desire for conversion to Orthodoxy, mine has not.  I thought I could wait for my wife but it's been almost 5 years.  Each person and situation is different though. 

My life has changed since finding Orthodoxy.  I wish you the best in these tough situations.

[mabsoota]

may God give u all much patience.
i am the only orthodox Christian in my family.
i don't go into personal details on the forum, but the keys to being ok is to stay close to God.
be the first to apologise in arguments, give extra time and effort to the non orthodox person / people, never insult their faith, focus on what u share in common, eg. say a short prayer before long care journeys with the 'name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit' added under yr breath until they accept that this is a valid form of prayer.

compromise. work hard on yr weakness. be a good servant and loving friend. recognise their wise spiritual insights.
keep up the gentle theological discussions and be a good listener to the other points of view.
accept the differences. don't try to change the other person. keep icons discrete.
go to the other person's church sometimes. don't try to change everyone there!
remember yr weakness. thank God for the challenges and questions that come as they strengthen yr faith.
maybe we think we would climb mountains and suffer for years if it would glorify God and build His church.
well, none of us is saint paul or saint john, so God has not asked us to change nations or spend years in prison, but we can all persevere, meekly, consistently and in great love with the people God has placed us with who need a touch of God's love from the light He has placed inside us.

[PrincessMommy]

This is very interesting.  I've never heard that "many" priests are asking a spouse to wait before becoming Orthodox. I might have heard of one or two.  I'm part of a yahoo group for those who are Orthodox without their spouses and I'm not sure any of them have run into that advice either.  Definitely talk with your priest.  My husband is not Orthodox and this wasn't the case for us either.  My priest wanted to make sure my husband wasn't categorically AGAINST my becoming Orthodox, but my priest never told me I couldn't come to church or become Orthodox until my husband was ready.   Waiting for my husband was an option we discussed, but I honestly didn't think it would help any to wait for him.  In fact, I thought it would make things worse.   Not that it's been easy.  

I do know some people who have opted to wait for their spouse.  But it seems to me that it was a decision they made with prayer and the help of their priest...not a decision made for them by their priest.

Besides, I'm not sure historically this would be accurate.  There's even that scripture verse about wives saving their non-Christian husband.  While that is specific to non-Christians, it was written at at time when there weren't really other Christian options.  

[Asteriktos]

I was listening to some AFR the other day and it mentioned that many priests say not to attend DL without their spouse.  Usually its the men that want to attend first.  And that some need to wait years and years on their spouse. 

The answer is quite simple, really, and very helpful not just in this matter you bring up, but regarding the idea of consulting priests generally. The answer, of course, is that such priests are morons. It also perfectly illustrates why blindly saying "ask your priest" is often, at best, dangerous advice. Priests are not protected from being morons any more than the rest of us. If you trust someone's advice (whether a priest, anonymous internet user or homeless man) then ask them for it. Then give it the weight you think it deserves. Easy peasy.

[PrincessMommy]

I was listening to some AFR the other day and it mentioned that many priests say not to attend DL without their spouse.  Usually its the men that want to attend first.  And that some need to wait years and years on their spouse. 

The answer is quite simple, really, and very helpful not just in this matter you bring up, but regarding the idea of consulting priests generally. The answer, of course, is that such priests are morons. It also perfectly illustrates why blindly saying "ask your priest" is often, at best, dangerous advice. Priests are not protected from being morons any more than the rest of us. If you trust someone's advice (whether a priest, anonymous internet user or homeless man) then ask them for it. Then give it the weight you think it deserves. Easy peasy.

I understand what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree.  The problem in this particular instance is that his priest is the one who will Christmate him - or not, as the case may be.  Asking his priest is important in this case. At least he'll know if it's even possible for him to enter the Orthodox church without his spouse, if he chooses to do so.  He (and we) may not agree with the priest's (or bishops) decision but there's not a lot we can do about it aside from finding another parish.  Whether the priest is a moron for holding such a hard-line is a matter of personal opinion.

[Luckster]

I have not converted yet but I suppose God willing it will be soon. My wife is a life long Hispanic RC and I converted to RC from Protestantism.  I've been learning about Orthodoxy for the last 4+years and became serious about conversion two years ago.

My Priest asked me to become a catechumenate this past Great Lent but in order for the hopes of my wife warming up a little bit more I opted to wait awhile longer.  My Priest hopes that my wife will become more open to Orthodoxy but he will not hold off my conversion because my spouse isn't going to convert.

My hopes are no longer hopes.  My wife will vehemently remain RC while I pursue conversion to Orthodoxy .  As many people have said in these situations "walking the fence can make a person crazy".  Unlike other women that have supported their husbands in thier desire for conversion to Orthodoxy, mine has not.  I thought I could wait for my wife but it's been almost 5 years.  Each person and situation is different though. 

It seems to me that your heart may have never been invested in Catholicism to begin with. Am I right to assume that you converted because of your wife?

It's difficult, and rare, to see Hispanic Orthodox in general, in my experience (things might be different down in the Southwest) because Catholicism is very much ingrained in their culture. They're much like the Greeks. The only Greek Catholics I've met were those that married Catholics.

[Aindriú]

A piece of my sitting the fence for these last two years has been my wife, as well. It is what it is.

I would recommend not waiting. It will only cause you internal conflict.

[NMHS]

It will only cause you internal conflict.

I second that!

[scamandrius]

Ive heard of many stories, and even met people in real life, who converted to Orthodoxy without their spouse.  Ive never heard anyone say you have to have your spouse completely on board.  My wife isnt really on board and Ill likely be converting soon.  She doesnt mind if I do it though.  Maybe it would be a little different if for some reason she really didnt want me to convert.

It is far different converting to Orthodoxy (or any other religion) before one is married when compared to converting afterwards.  A person at my church converted to Orthodoxy from Melkite Catholicism.  His wife, who is the daughter of a professor of a seminary aligned with the SSPX wants NOTHING to do with Orthodoxy, yet he went ahead and converted anyway.  HIs wife wasn't even present at his chrismation.  He's also shown a zealousness often associated with other converts but to a much greater degree. 

He used to be one of our most frequent attendees at not only Liturgy but also Vespers and Orthros, but he's been told that such is a no-go anymore.  His presence at Divine Litrugy is maybe once a month  because he ends up going with her to the Melkite Church more and more.  She never comes with him to the Orthodox Church.  He's also a regular patron of our bookstore and he always pays cash or uses a company credit card so that his wife doesn't know about what he's spending money on.  That kind of secrecy is dangerous. 

He has three young kids with his wife and I'm sure they are confused.  "Why doesn't daddy come to church with us anymore?"  I think that these things are finally coming to a head and I fear for what may happen to the relationship.  If your wife isn't on board and  you have kids in the mix, especially young ones, I say don't do it.  Remember it's important that you end the race well, not that you jump into it when you're not ready.

[JR]

It is difficult, I come from the RC background and my wife is a filipina RC, and she refuses to come to divine liturgy, she knows nothing of her own faith and had never touched a bible before we met.

But she will read the prayers that I leave on the table and she will listen to the talks with me, she thinks they are Catholic until I tell her otherwise.

She is starting to come round slowly, I just leave her to it, sometimes she goes to her church.

I tend to discus with her what the churches have in common, and read the scriptures in the same light, until she asks a question.

I gave her the akathist hymn of the Holy Theotokos and download the song fro the Greek church in America, she loved it, thought it was Catholic at first as it was not in chant.

I never speak of her faith in a negative way, she even made me a prayer rope this weekend.

I will take her to a Russian divine liturgy as it is more westernised than the Greek ones, and might be easier for her.

I like the saying in greek σιγα σιγα rough translation is slowly slowly.

Just do what you need to do, my priest knows that my wife is RC and has not asked me to wait.

Just never give up praying about it. it has taken me 2 years to get this far.

[Timon]

It will only cause you internal conflict.

I second that!

third

[primuspilus]

subscribing. Im was in the same boat. I'll share when I have more time.

[Schultz]

I converted to Orthodoxy while my wife remains a nominal, non-practicing RC who wasn't catechized very well.  The only conflict that arises is the sadness I feel because she does not come to church with me, especially since it's not because of any doctrinal issues but because of an irrational (to me, at least) distrust of church hierarchy she's developed over the past few years. 

I still do hope that some day, once she's been able to process her feelings, she will convert.  She certainly likes the liturgy and really likes Byzantine music (which I do not care for, although if I had to attend a Greek/Antiochian church for her sake, I would in a heartbeat, as I have the luxury of being able to do that at present). 

It's certainly doable.  My wife is curious as to why/when/how things are done and I am very careful in how I answer he questions to be as non-confrontational and non-triumphalist as possible.  It takes great care to "ride the fence," as it were, but it is possible.

[Timon]

My wife is curious as to why/when/how things are done and I am very careful in how I answer he questions to be as non-confrontational and non-triumphalist as possible.

Im dealing with this too.  She certainly senses a bit of arrogance when it comes to Orthodoxy, and most of that is my fault because I am a jaded ex-protestant who at times used to be a little more harsh than I should have been.  I have improved a good bit though.  Now when Im answering something, I try to just give the East's perspective on the subject, rather than trying to prove why its right when compared to the West (protestant).

[katherineofdixie]

She certainly senses a bit of arrogance when it comes to Orthodoxy, and most of that is my fault because I am a jaded ex-protestant who at times used to be a little more harsh than I should have been.  I have improved a good bit though. 

Tell her that, with humility - that is, something on the order of, "Honey, whatever arrogance you may be sensing is, I'm afraid, my fault. I'm sure you know that I used to be more harsh than I should have been, but I'm working on it."

[Timon]

She certainly senses a bit of arrogance when it comes to Orthodoxy, and most of that is my fault because I am a jaded ex-protestant who at times used to be a little more harsh than I should have been.  I have improved a good bit though. 

Tell her that, with humility - that is, something on the order of, "Honey, whatever arrogance you may be sensing is, I'm afraid, my fault. I'm sure you know that I used to be more harsh than I should have been, but I'm working on it."

I have, actually.  Sometimes shes really open to discussing everything, and seems to be open to the idea of maybe converting.  Then other days, shes not so easy to talk to.  Just depends on her mood I suppose.  Sometimes, and I could be totally wrong here, it seems like that she is convinced and shes just scared of the change so shes trying to talk herself out of it.  (sort of like I used to.... ha!)  She even told me once after attending her parents Baptist church that everything I had been talking about was starting to make sense.  She attended the same church yesterday after attending liturgy with me 2 weeks ago.  Hopefully after seeing the two services side by side, the DL will start to make more sense and she will be drawn to Orthodoxy.  I actually have the next 2 sunday mornings off (assuming any last minute work doesnt pop up), so hopefully she will come with me again.  I never pressure her to though.  Just extend the invitation.

[PrincessMommy]

She certainly senses a bit of arrogance when it comes to Orthodoxy, and most of that is my fault because I am a jaded ex-protestant who at times used to be a little more harsh than I should have been.  I have improved a good bit though. 

Tell her that, with humility - that is, something on the order of, "Honey, whatever arrogance you may be sensing is, I'm afraid, my fault. I'm sure you know that I used to be more harsh than I should have been, but I'm working on it."

I have, actually.  Sometimes shes really open to discussing everything, and seems to be open to the idea of maybe converting.  Then other days, shes not so easy to talk to.  Just depends on her mood I suppose.  Sometimes, and I could be totally wrong here, it seems like that she is convinced and shes just scared of the change so shes trying to talk herself out of it.  (sort of like I used to.... ha!)  She even told me once after attending her parents Baptist church that everything I had been talking about was starting to make sense.  She attended the same church yesterday after attending liturgy with me 2 weeks ago.  Hopefully after seeing the two services side by side, the DL will start to make more sense and she will be drawn to Orthodoxy.  I actually have the next 2 sunday mornings off (assuming any last minute work doesnt pop up), so hopefully she will come with me again.  I never pressure her to though.  Just extend the invitation.

Your wife sounds similar to my husband.  Although I don't necessarily think it's fear on his part.

[GabrieltheCelt]

I'll disclose a little personal info in the hopes that it may help someone see a different aspect of 'Conversion Aversion'. 

 My wife is adopted and an only child and her parents have doted on her from day one.  The reasons she gives me on her hesitancy to convert all boil down to a familial bond and duty that goes like this:  Her parents went to great lengths (travel, financial, time) to adopt her and bring her back America.  To this day, her parents still celebrate what they call "Gotcha Day."  Because of everything they've done for her, all the sacrifices they've made, for her to leave her parents' religion is (to her mind) akin to turning her back on them.  The very thought of this can bring her to tears.  I have tried to explain to her that this is absolutely not the case.  Why, her own father left his childhood Baptist religion for his wife's Lutheranism and he still is as close to his parents as my wife is to hers.  They've even giver her their blessing (as if she needed it) to convert to Orthodoxy.  However, as I mentioned above, the three of them are extremely close and she just will not do anything that she feels will hurt them. 

 Like some of you, I no longer talk about it as much as I once did; I no longer ask her to read this or that book.  Thankfully though, she loves our priest and always goes to church with me on the days I'm not working.  Baby steps, I reckon.   

[mabsoota]

timon, u mentioned that it can depend on the 'mood' of the spouse.
this is sometimes true, but remember that the 'mood' of someone can be actively irritated by the evil one who loves to stir up dissension and arguments.
we are not all saint anthony the great, and most of us will not see demons and fight off serpents (thank God!) but it's certainly possible for people to be affected by the whispers of the enemy.

maybe for some of u it will sound a bit far fetched, but remember the devil is like a 'prowling lion' and so when yr spouse is uncharacteristically harsh with u, (and maybe also u with him / her, we have faults too!) it could just be the enemy causing irritation. so never take this personally, remember yr spouse is not yr enemy (even if he / she takes up devil worship) but the devil is yr enemy. the best way to get even with the devil is to be full of God's love, forgiveness and patience.
'submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you'.
james 4:7.
also see 1 peter 3.
so say something like, 'come on, let's not start being mean about this, the important thing is that i really love u (and then add some specific positive point). lets chill a bit and discuss it again after dinner when we are feeling calmer'.

[Timon]

timon, u mentioned that it can depend on the 'mood' of the spouse.
this is sometimes true, but remember that the 'mood' of someone can be actively irritated by the evil one who loves to stir up dissension and arguments.
we are not all saint anthony the great, and most of us will not see demons and fight off serpents (thank God!) but it's certainly possible for people to be affected by the whispers of the enemy.

maybe for some of u it will sound a bit far fetched, but remember the devil is like a 'prowling lion' and so when yr spouse is uncharacteristically harsh with u, (and maybe also u with him / her, we have faults too!) it could just be the enemy causing irritation. so never take this personally, remember yr spouse is not yr enemy (even if he / she takes up devil worship) but the devil is yr enemy. the best way to get even with the devil is to be full of God's love, forgiveness and patience.
'submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you'.
james 4:7.
also see 1 peter 3.
so say something like, 'come on, let's not start being mean about this, the important thing is that i really love u (and then add some specific positive point). lets chill a bit and discuss it again after dinner when we are feeling calmer'.

excellent advice.  thanks for this!

[Timon]

She certainly senses a bit of arrogance when it comes to Orthodoxy, and most of that is my fault because I am a jaded ex-protestant who at times used to be a little more harsh than I should have been.  I have improved a good bit though. 

Tell her that, with humility - that is, something on the order of, "Honey, whatever arrogance you may be sensing is, I'm afraid, my fault. I'm sure you know that I used to be more harsh than I should have been, but I'm working on it."

I have, actually.  Sometimes shes really open to discussing everything, and seems to be open to the idea of maybe converting.  Then other days, shes not so easy to talk to.  Just depends on her mood I suppose.  Sometimes, and I could be totally wrong here, it seems like that she is convinced and shes just scared of the change so shes trying to talk herself out of it.  (sort of like I used to.... ha!)  She even told me once after attending her parents Baptist church that everything I had been talking about was starting to make sense.  She attended the same church yesterday after attending liturgy with me 2 weeks ago.  Hopefully after seeing the two services side by side, the DL will start to make more sense and she will be drawn to Orthodoxy.  I actually have the next 2 sunday mornings off (assuming any last minute work doesnt pop up), so hopefully she will come with me again.  I never pressure her to though.  Just extend the invitation.

Your wife sounds similar to my husband.  Although I don't necessarily think it's fear on his part.

so, youre a female trying to draw your husband to orthodoxy?  usually, according to the statistics ive heard, its the other way around to where the male tries to bring the female to orthodoxy!

[PrincessMommy]

so, youre a female trying to draw your husband to orthodoxy?  usually, according to the statistics ive heard, its the other way around to where the male tries to bring the female to orthodoxy!

yes, I am female and my husband isn't Orthodox.  I am not trying to draw him into Orthodoxy though.  If my husband ever decides to convert it will be his own choice.   I was never one who left Orthodox material lying around for him to "find" or asking him to pray Orthodox prayers, etc. etc.   That is just so not me.  Probably if someone were to look from the outside they'd think I don't care.   But that isn't true.  I care more that if he were to become Orthodox that it would come from his heart and not because he felt some kind of obligation to me or the kids.

I hear statistics say I'm in the minority, but I do know of several women who are Orthodox without their husbands.  I don't think we're as much a minority as it seems.

[mabsoota]

i'm female too!
in a previous church we had a divorced lady who attended alone and 2 men who attended without their wives, though i did get to meet one of the wives. i was keen to show them orthodox Christians don't have 2 heads.
take it slow, value them and their friends, invite yr orthodox friends to meet them if that's ok, for some neutral event such as eating food (before the apostles fast is a great time to do this!)

i have to say, though, that my husband is amazing and even buys me vegan food in the fasts.
 

[NMHS]

It seems to me that your heart may have never been invested in Catholicism to begin with. Am I right to assume that you converted because of your wife?

It's difficult, and rare, to see Hispanic Orthodox in general, in my experience (things might be different down in the Southwest) because Catholicism is very much ingrained in their culture. They're much like the Greeks. The only Greek Catholics I've met were those that married Catholics.

Sorry about this late post.  I just saw your reply.  I did convert for my wife and became invested into Catholicism prior even knowing or hearing about the Orthodox Church.  But as I started to learn more about the RCC I started to learn about the OC and so on................ Your exactly right about the culture in the Southwest.  That's one of the reasons she's so stubborn

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