OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 29, 2014, 09:00:30 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Need help with Islam class!  (Read 1128 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jerempire
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 16


ICXC NIKA


« on: September 21, 2011, 12:28:58 AM »

Hi, I am currently taking a class called Islam and pharmacy. Where my Egyptian Muslim Professor with a PHD in Pharmacology is teaching about Islam and its relation to Pharmacy history wise. I have taken him for Pharmacology and and he is a brilliant professor, very humble and very funny also, but when it comes to History and Islam I feel like I am being taught a very distorted picture of history.

 First class we learned about the Miracles of the Quran especially in regards to Embrology( lol  Roll Eyes ). I was forced to a Dr. Keith More in an old 80's video showing how modern science was known in the Quran. I am seeing a very subtle apologetic context in all the video he shows. As there is always the bashing of Christianity, then the how the Quran is different. Today, in the second class we learned the Islamic history of medicine in the early Caliphates and then its transmission into the Latin West. I feel like I am being taught a one sided distorted picture of history and so is my classmates who never question anything. Especially of videos where claims like "where unlike Christianity where science and religion are thought to be incompatible, Islamic scholars meanwhile.....".

I want to say something like the huge contribution of Nestorian Scholars who transmitted the whole Greek Medical corpus in Syriac, then into Arabic. The so called "Muslims scholars" like Rhazes and Averroes  who are heretical Muslims. Or how it shouldn't be called Arabic science since most of the Islamic scholars who made significant contributions were Persians. Or how the so called Miracles of Quran were known by Galen and Hippocrates before the Prophet and widely dispersed around that time. Or how the majority of the administrative, medicinal and scribal needs of the early Caliphates were provided by Nestorian and Monophysite Christians who were the still majority population wise in the early empire. There is so much I want to say....


Like I said he is a great professor, very funny and very kind, but every week I am literally on the edge of my seat because I want to challenge EVERYTHING HE SAYS. But I know it will not be practical or wise in my opinion to do that. Also today after class, I went up to him after class an told him about Arabic numerals( how it was actually transmitted by Indian scholars into the Islamic Caliphate, and then it was called Arabic numerals) He told me " you know after 9-11 there is lot of people who wanted to make sure that anything Islamic is not Islamic...." I didn't say anything after this. My question is how do I Approach this? I do not want to be that guy who says are " Actually NO, that is not how it is every single time and every week and be a dick about it"
Logged

"Ask with tears, seek with obedience, knock with patience. For thus he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" St. John Climacus
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,769


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2011, 12:41:05 AM »

Hi, I am currently taking a class called Islam and pharmacy. Where my Egyptian Muslim Professor with a PHD in Pharmacology is teaching about Islam and its relation to Pharmacy history wise. I have taken him for Pharmacology and and he is a brilliant professor, very humble and very funny also, but when it comes to History and Islam I feel like I am being taught a very distorted picture of history.

 First class we learned about the Miracles of the Quran especially in regards to Embrology( lol  Roll Eyes ). I was forced to a Dr. Keith More in an old 80's video showing how modern science was known in the Quran. I am seeing a very subtle apologetic context in all the video he shows.
That's definitely not subtle. Is this a class in an American university?
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
jewish voice
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 414



« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2011, 12:49:28 AM »

My advice would be to drop the class before your locked into.
Logged
Jerempire
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 16


ICXC NIKA


« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2011, 12:54:05 AM »

NicholasMyra, It is an american University...... I am in a Professional program ( Pharm D) in a college in America and he is a professor of Pharmacology for our pharmacy program.
Logged

"Ask with tears, seek with obedience, knock with patience. For thus he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" St. John Climacus
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2011, 12:58:03 AM »

This sounds highly unusual... Is your college accredited?


Reminds me of this that I just read, Expert: There is an Islamization of History and Geography


Good luck. I had to sit through a day of PC supported Dawah in a course (that had nothing to do with Islam) and got chased and yelled at by my professor after class for very tactfully asking a few questions to the guest speaker. I was boiling after that. The only reason I didn't complain to the school is because I knew that move made sure no class that professor taught at our college would have enough enrolment to be taught again. The only thing it did was discredit the entire field for everyone in the class.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 01:00:36 AM by Jason.Wike » Logged
Jerempire
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 16


ICXC NIKA


« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 01:10:09 AM »

Jason It is an accredited Pharmacy College and has been for 125 years. This is an elective course ( 1 credit hour) which was brought in like 3 years ago by him and he is the only teacher for the course. Honestly this is one of the easiest class in the program. No tests or anything. Only two written one page papers on two articles we read for the entire semester.

Btw, the article really makes sense to me how the Muslim mind works.
Logged

"Ask with tears, seek with obedience, knock with patience. For thus he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" St. John Climacus
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 03:08:21 AM »


First class we learned about the Miracles of the Quran especially in regards to Embrology( lol  Roll Eyes ). I was forced to a Dr. Keith More in an old 80's video showing how modern science was known in the Quran. I am seeing a very subtle apologetic context in all the video he shows. As there is always the bashing of Christianity, then the how the Quran is different. Today, in the second class we learned the Islamic history of medicine in the early Caliphates and then its transmission into the Latin West. I feel like I am being taught a one sided distorted picture of history and so is my classmates who never question anything. Especially of videos where claims like "where unlike Christianity where science and religion are thought to be incompatible, Islamic scholars meanwhile.....".

Nothing unusual from people who serve "the father of lies".  Wink

Was this video about the sequence of some organs in the creation? I have heard the name Keith More in such a pseudo-miracle. Here is the refutation to this particular miracle claim: http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/rebuttals/yahya/embryo_development.html

Here are some other articles related to Islam and science:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/embryo.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Roark/science_islam.htm
http://answering-islam.org/authors/roark/rebuttals/zawadi/science_advancement.html
http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/tt1/tt3.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/

Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Jerempire
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 16


ICXC NIKA


« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 01:39:26 PM »

I defiantly will be using this for next class....
Logged

"Ask with tears, seek with obedience, knock with patience. For thus he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" St. John Climacus
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 01:49:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This is how academic history works, its an open discussion and dialogue, not necessarily an exclusively authoritarian canon.  People who study and teach history bring their own personal interpretations, biases, and opinions, and the variations in outcome are generally called historiography.  Some things your professor says are going to be correct, some or going to be factually inaccurate, others will be blatantly ideological, but this is generally how it works.  Your job as a student to is to add to this discussion in an intelligent, cohesive, and diplomatic way.  You've made some great historical points and counter arguments, why not find ways to politely integrate them into the in-class discussions or writing assignments?

If all your teachers always 100% agree with you, then its a good sign you are not learning much, and if there is a clash or conflict of opinion, this will get you, him, and the entire class thinking deeper about the material, and then all will have a more thorough understanding from the process of elucidation.  The trick is to avoid challenging "everything he says" and instead synthesizing his points in tandem with your own, and in finding the middle ground only bring up the more glaringly obvious contradictions, to be contributing rather than simply contrary.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Jerempire
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 16


ICXC NIKA


« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 02:02:18 PM »

HabteSelassei, that was a great post and thank you. Next week, we have an in class-discussion over what we learned so far, I will try to throw in some points non-polemically and try to stir the discussion in a positive way to hopefully a fruitful discussion. Also I will read up on the sources and materials so I will keep on my facts in order. We shall see....
Logged

"Ask with tears, seek with obedience, knock with patience. For thus he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" St. John Climacus
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,028


« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 02:05:38 PM »

Yeah, I got the Islamicized history and subtle Christian-bashing in my Arabic courses at my previous institution, which I specifically took with an American non-Muslim in hopes of avoiding such nonsense. We were being made to learn the family history of Muhammad and his descendants as a "culturally-relevant use of vocabulary" (to help us remember words for "family", "mother", "uncle", etc. more readily I guess), and when it got to the story of Maria al-Qibtiya (Maria the Copt), the 'professor' white washed the fact that she was NOT counted among his wives even though she bore him a son. After class, I confronted the professor in as sternly a manner as I could manage without being rude (the professor was around my age, so there was not that feeling of intimidation that there would have been approaching a senior professor), asking pointedly if Maria the Copt was actually one of his wives (knowing full well that she was given as a "gift" to Muhammad, and was therefore essentially treated as chattel). He sort of smirked and said "No, but she was one of his women, and is included in the genealogy because she bore him a son."

GROSS.  Embarrassed

What's more, when I asked him to please stop comparing Christianity's treatment of women with Islam's in a way that is favorable to Islam in blatant disregard of the facts and context (as though 17th century Puritan heretics can be reasonably compared with 21st century Islamists), he stated that he only did that so that he would not be accused of presenting a negative picture of Islam, as he had several Muslims in his classes. (Meanwhile, I and several others were Christians, the girl who sat behind me was a Syrian Jew, there was a Bangladeshi Hindu in another level, etc. Too bad so sad for all those people, I guess! Islam is just plain better than your silly religions, don'tcha know...)

For the remainder of that unit, I dedicated myself to learning Byzantine Arabic chant from Fairuz's "Good Friday Sacred Hymns" album. Three years on, I couldn't tell you anything about Muhammad's family, but I still know my way around "Al yawm 'awliq 'ala al khashaba".

Good luck in your class. Academia and Islam are strange bedfellows, but that is the reality of the world we are living in. Just remember that the so-called "Islamic science" would not have existed were it not for the Christians and Jews who brought that knowledge to the Arabs to begin with. Or, to put it another way, we might sincerely ask ourselves when confronted with an over-emphasis on, nay, invention of the glories of past Islamic civilizations, what Arab civilization?

(Arab Christians, it should be noted, are exempt from analyses like BetBasoo's above because they did not ever have the destructive impulse of the Arab Muslims. In fact, you can read about the settlement of Al Hira in Iraq, which is an example of one of the pre-Islamic Arab settlements outside of Arabia which was filled with Christians and did not displace the native Assyrians/Syriacs, nor claim their inventions to be Arab; that came later with the Islamicization of history that continues on to this day.)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 02:06:30 PM by dzheremi » Logged

orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,350



« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 02:18:20 PM »

It should also give you insight into the fundamentalist mindset of any such stripe of person Muslim, Christian, or Orthodox.

I swear it was this absolute obvious nonsense that got me the most about the Muslim guys I lived with who were some of the best housemates I ever had. They insisted all science known and to be known is contained in the Koran.

Well, frankly I think it is more insaner not to eat pork, but you get my drift.

Best of luck. Not sure how far any "argument" is going to go here.

Interesting elective though. Didn't know such things happened at pharma schools.

Congratulations on being accepted. No mean feat.

Remember that rare kind word from me when you are graduated and pass all those crazy tests and mail me my BMW.

Thanks.

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Jerempire
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 16


ICXC NIKA


« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 02:19:35 PM »

dzheremi, that sounds very much like my class and sadly this is the double standard in academia with Islam and Christianity. However, Do you have any sources where I can learn more about Al-Hira in Iraq?  Iam very interested..
Logged

"Ask with tears, seek with obedience, knock with patience. For thus he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" St. John Climacus
Jerempire
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 16


ICXC NIKA


« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2011, 02:27:15 PM »

"Congratulations on being accepted. No mean feat.Remember that rare kind word from me when you are graduated and pass all those crazy tests and mail me my BMW."

 Smiley Thanks for the complement. lol, I will be sure to do that. Cheesy

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=bmw&um=1&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&tbnid=uUo4n1PJ8jshJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.insightcarsupdates.com/2011/02/bmw-z4/&docid=9wtHA40MzsbywM&w=1280&h=1024&ei=Byx6Tq7VFaf_sQLVuN3MAw&zoom=1 ( incoming 2014)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 02:28:22 PM by Jerempire » Logged

"Ask with tears, seek with obedience, knock with patience. For thus he who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" St. John Climacus
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2011, 02:38:34 PM »

Selam Smiley
dzheremi, its really amazing how these things are subtly and blatantly are being done in the world of academia  by the so called scholars  who are so shameless. in Ethiopia they wrote books and articles they called historical and claimed that the Christian Ethiopian king that gave refuge to Mohammad followers had became  converted into a Muslim king of Ethiopia while Mohammad was still alive lol  and that Ethiopia became a Muslim kingdom lol the first article got a round of laughter at how ridiculous the claim was surely no one will take this seriously but the second and consecutive ones ignited the fury of many Ethiopian historians both from the Church and outside. yet this preposterous claim is being thought to many both in Ethiopia and abroad despite the overwhelming  historical evidence against the claim. yes its seems like there is a definite islamization of history that is going on till today.

Selam to you all
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,028


« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 02:40:54 PM »

dzheremi, that sounds very much like my class and sadly this is the double standard in academia with Islam and Christianity. However, Do you have any sources where I can learn more about Al-Hira in Iraq?  Iam very interested..

Oh, I just meant that as an example of a pre-Islamic Arab people who were largely Christian, and did not behave like the Arab Muslims who have attracted to their ethnicity all kinds of negativity by their actions such that an Assyrian like Peter BetBasoo can (in my opinion, rightfully) equate with disdain Arab aims and Muslim aims (~ the destruction of all non-Arab/Muslim cultures). Though there are several books out there you could read that have some information on the pre-Islamic Arabs from a Christian perspective, such as Dr. Suha Rassam's "Christianity in Iraq" (a very informative, readable, and absolutely tragic book) or Yasmine Zahran & Robert Hoyland's "The Lakhmids of Hira". Hoyland's own "Seeing Islam As Others Saw It" is also very much recommended to get a sense of period references to Islam and Muslims from non-Islamic sources which are otherwise ignored or suppressed in favor of the backdoor Islamic hagiography that seems to pass as history at many universities.
Logged

dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,028


« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2011, 03:09:11 PM »

Selam Hiwot!

Yes, I have heard that claim from some Muslims about the Ethiopian king. Of course, all my Ethiopian friends (who are Tewahedo) laugh at it. It is ridiculous, no? Anyone with a basic grasp of Ethiopian history (which I am blessed to have thanks to the large Ethiopian population back home) knows better. These same historical amnesiacs would also paint Ahmed Gragn* as some sort of nationalist hero rather than a murdering warlord...yuck! That's how Islamic history works, though. Everything is subsumed for the sake of Islam and its followers and especially its prophet. It is ahistorical garbage. If a Christian did that in misguided service of his religion (and many have), they would very rightly not be taken seriously, and yet the Muslims with their "fatuhat" (offensive wars) and jiziya religious tax not only get a pass but are actively promoted as restoring some sort of long-neglected "balance" to the teaching of history. It's absolutely maddening. How these people (both the Muslims and their sycophants) can live with the massive amounts of cognitive dissonance this must create is just baffling. I suppose they'd call that "faith". I have other words for it, but they cannot be used politely on a public forum...  Lips Sealed  Embarrassed

(*- the Muslim marauder who gutted the Ethiopian church in the 16th century. Before his time 9 out 10 Oromo were Christian; after it that proportion was reversed such that now the Oromo, who are the largest single ethnic group in the country, are solidly majority-Muslim. Source: Teferra Haile-Selassie "Ethiopian Revolution 1974-1991", Routledge 1997)

Selam Smiley
dzheremi, its really amazing how these things are subtly and blatantly are being done in the world of academia  by the so called scholars  who are so shameless. in Ethiopia they wrote books and articles they called historical and claimed that the Christian Ethiopian king that gave refuge to Mohammad followers had became  converted into a Muslim king of Ethiopia while Mohammad was still alive lol  and that Ethiopia became a Muslim kingdom lol the first article got a round of laughter at how ridiculous the claim was surely no one will take this seriously but the second and consecutive ones ignited the fury of many Ethiopian historians both from the Church and outside. yet this preposterous claim is being thought to many both in Ethiopia and abroad despite the overwhelming  historical evidence against the claim. yes its seems like there is a definite islamization of history that is going on till today.

Selam to you all
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 03:30:58 PM by dzheremi » Logged

HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2011, 03:45:26 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

While some Muslims argue that the Ethiopian Emperor was converted by Mohammed, most see that as superstitious idealism, and rather accept more of the facts.  Islam in its infancy was directly influenced by the Christian experience of the Mohammedan family in exile there.  Mohammed specifically instituted fasting having been influenced by the already rigid fasting culture of Ethiopian Christianity then, and also was inspired by their level of popular piety and religious conviction.  On the flip side, Mohammed was also influenced to lean more heavily towards Iconoclasm after having been himself personally offended at the level of religious imagery and iconography present in Ethiopian popular worship.  So much of the lives of a billion people are influenced by this 7th century interaction.

Muslims today pray five times a day and have institutionalized fasting in part because of the influence of Ethiopian and Oriental Christianity from that region, and further they are ostentatiously iconoclastic out of the same well-spring of mutual history.  Also remember that at the time, Mohammed allied himself with the Ethiopian Christians because they shared a common political nemesis, the Arab-Yemeni Jewish monarchies which dominated the Arabian peninsula and the Red Sea region during the decline of Roman hegemony which the Axumites were a logical partner (much like how Ethiopia today is heavily involved in the geopolitics of policing Somali pirates, just as they were aligned with the Romans so long ago for the same reasons Smiley )

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2011, 03:52:07 PM »

yes indeed! dzheremi,it is absolutely maddening, when someone lies to you blatantly like they are doing. your knowledge of Ethiopian history and the right one at that makes me very happy my brother, it says to me the truth will go on living. they attempted to erect a monument to Gragn in the heart of the place where he committed such atrocities as if he was some kind of hero. well lets just say that was nipped on the bud and the monument did not see the light of the day. there is a lot that we will leave unsaid here. However, we have not forgotten, nor will we ever forget!

May God bless you with long healthy life dzhemeri, you made my day today my brother.  Grin
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 03:56:40 PM by Hiwot » Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2011, 04:23:28 PM »

Selam Smiley
dzheremi, its really amazing how these things are subtly and blatantly are being done in the world of academia  by the so called scholars  who are so shameless. in Ethiopia they wrote books and articles they called historical and claimed that the Christian Ethiopian king that gave refuge to Mohammad followers had became  converted into a Muslim king of Ethiopia while Mohammad was still alive lol ...

Selam to you all

Quote
Ibn Kathir’s commentary on Surah 61:6 contains a rather funny and ridiculous story that exhibits the influence of the New Testament teaching concerning the relation between John the Baptist and Jesus and its adaptation to Muhammad:

Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said that the Messenger of Allah sent eighty men, including `Abdullah bin Mas`ud, Ja`far bin Abi Talib, `Abdullah bin `Urfutah, `Uthman bin Maz`un, Abu Musa, and others, to An-Najashi. The Quraysh sent `Amr bin Al-`As and `Umarah bin Al-Walid with a gift for An-Najashi. When they, `Amr and `Umarah, came to An-Najashi, they prostrated before him and stood to his right and left. `Amr and `Umarah said, "Some of our cousins migrated to your land; they have abandoned us and our religion.'' An-Najashi said, "Where are they'' They said, "They are in your land, so send for them,'' so An-Najashi summoned the Muslims. Ja`far said to the Muslims, "I will be your speaker today.'' So, the Muslims followed Ja`far and when he entered on the king he did not prostrate after greeting him. They said to Ja`far, "Why do you not prostrate before the king'' Ja`far said, "We only prostrate for Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored.'' They said, "Why'' He said, "Allah has sent a Messenger to us from Him, who ordered us not to prostrate to anyone except Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored. He also ordered to perform prayer and give charity.'' `Amr bin Al-`As said, "They contradict your creed about `Isa, son of Maryam.'' The king asked, "What do you say about `Isa and his mother Maryam'' Ja`far said, "We only say what Allah said about him, that he is Allah's Word, a soul created by Allah and sent down to the honorable virgin who was not touched by a man nor bearing children before.'' An-Najashi lifted a straw of wood and said, "O Ethiopians, monks and priests! By Allah, what they say about `Isa is no more than what we say about him, not even a difference that equals this straw. You are welcomed among us, and greetings to him who sent you. I bear witness that he is Allah's Messenger whom we read about in the Injil. He is the Prophet who `Isa, son of Maryam, foretold the good news about his advent. Live wherever you wish. By Allah, had I not been entrusted with the responsibilities of kingship, I would have gone to him, so that I could be honored by carrying his slippers and his water for ablution.'' (Source) 

This fictitious and unsubstantiated story should be discarded not only because it contains gross examples of anachronism that contradicts the traditional chronological order of the Qur’an, but also introduces the King of Abyssinia ruling in Muhammad’s era as a great figure testifying to him, which reminds us of John the Baptist’s testimony for Jesus: “I baptize you with water, for repentance, but the one coming after me is more powerful than I am – I am not worthy to carry his sandals” (Matthew 3:11).Note that John the Baptist also baptized Jesus, and this ritual of baptism was transformed in the Islamic legend into the King’s helping Muhammad with ablution!
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/jesus_miracles_quran2b.html
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,028


« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2011, 04:59:27 PM »

There is indeed a monument to his atrocities, Hiwot. But it is in Mogadishu, Somalia, where I guess the Somalis treat him like a real Somali national hero. Shocked Roll Eyes Here is a link to the picture of it from Wikipedia: Ahmed Gragn statue, Mogadishu

I am glad to hear that they did not build the statue of him in Ethiopia. That would be like building a statue of Hitler in the middle of Tel Aviv. How people could think of that...it really shocks me...but you are right, people have to try to learn and remember the real history, and in every place where Islam went in its quest to conquer the world, there were already native Christians to tell the real story of the lands that are now Islamic. So the history is out there, but it is not as accessible as the Saudi-funded whitewash literature (like Muslims' favorite that our OP might want to check out, Maurice Baucalle's laughably insane "The Bible, the Qur'an, and Science", published in 1976 while he was in the employ of the king of Saudi Arabia; and if you don't think that had an effect on the contents, I've got some prime land to sell you in Mecca). If you read only the popular (read: fashionable) accounts from Muslims and Islamic-sycophant Westerners (why don't they just convert already?) that make up the modern narrative, you might come away thinking that Islam is pretty great. If, however, you read more from Syriacs, Copts, Ethiopians, Maronites, and others who have lived under Islam for centuries, maybe then you'll have the true balance that the historians think they're getting by relying on Islamic/Arab sources. It's just a dream for now, but maybe someday... 

yes indeed! dzheremi,it is absolutely maddening, when someone lies to you blatantly like they are doing. your knowledge of Ethiopian history and the right one at that makes me very happy my brother, it says to me the truth will go on living. they attempted to erect a monument to Gragn in the heart of the place where he committed such atrocities as if he was some kind of hero. well lets just say that was nipped on the bud and the monument did not see the light of the day. there is a lot that we will leave unsaid here. However, we have not forgotten, nor will we ever forget!

May God bless you with long healthy life dzhemeri, you made my day today my brother.  Grin
Logged

HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2011, 09:00:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
There is indeed a monument to his atrocities, Hiwot. But it is in Mogadishu, Somalia, where I guess the Somalis treat him like a real Somali national hero. Shocked Roll Eyes Here is a link to the picture of it from Wikipedia:


Yes, the Kingdom of Adal is to Somalis a highlight of their history, and the genocidal campaigns of the Ahmed Gragn have made him a folk hero because of his defeats against their bitter Ethiopian nemesis.  We know what he did is totally despicable, but war is complicated like that.  When bodies are piling up, it gets hard for some folks to make distinctions, after all, human nature is absolutely distorted in the worst way in war-zones (not always, war also brings out best in some people, the worst in others) so that killing can become acceptable. I would argue that those Adal armies were fighting not necessarily to exterminate Christianity as a religious war, but rather were essentially fighting a genocidal but political war against their arch-rivals.  The Ethiopian Crown had been exerting heavy taxes with an even heavier hand through military occupation of Adal for some time, with Ottoman provoking and military assistance Ahmed Gragn, as the hereditary leader, led a resistance campaign.  Initially, the Somalis didn't even think they would be very successful, it is really surprising to all how effective their almost Blitzkrieg strategy was.  To call it a religious war is not quite accurate, I would say that it was a political war in a religious society.  When society is religious, even politics are filled with religious rhetoric and ideology.  So I would argue that Ahmed Gragn and his armies were not entirely motivated by religious zeal against Christians so much as (a) a classical geopolitical power struggle over territory and resources combined with (b) a seemingly perfect storm of almost inexplicable military successes on the battlefield and (c) steeped in religious overtones because of the religiosity of their societies.  Remember these campaigns lasted for nearly two decades and the occupation itself for 14!

God Bless the Souls of those Ethiopian Martyrs, and praises be to God for preserving our mother Church through such horrifying events of history..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,028


« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2011, 10:10:07 PM »

As you rightfully point out, HabteSelassie, the religious nature of the society leads for the political or other social grievances to be couched in religious terms. This is still true today in many, many parts of the world, and not just with regard to Christianity and Islam (look at the rhetoric used against Christians in India by some extremist Hindus, for instance, which is within the context of political conflict). But then I wonder what the point is of making the distinction that you have, that Ahmed Gragn and his compatriots weren't really launching a religious war, but a political one with religious notions intermixed with it due to the character of the people. I think you may be right in some essential way, but that this is not a terribly important distinction to make, and, in light of the very real effect on religious demography in the country (see the statistic from T. Haile-Selassie in my previous post), may be "missing the trees for the forest", if I may turn a phrase inside out for the purpose of making a point.

Let me compare it to something a little more recent that you may or may not be familiar with: The destruction of the Abu Fana monastery in Egypt. This ostensibly was a "land dispute" between local Muslims and the monastery, which led to the destruction of portions of the monastery by an enraged Muslim mob. In the course of this violence, some of the monks were kidnapped and tortured, and told to renounce their Christianity, declare the "shahada" (Islamic creed), and spit on the Cross. Sad This is, to put it mildly, very odd behavior to engage in a land dispute. No doubt the religious atmosphere of the area, and the inherently unequal power distribution of the parties involved (the Arab Muslims having the upper hand in any security or court situation, as usual) contributed to such blatantly religiously-motivated actions in a scenario that in a society with different (secular) values would not have evolved that way. Does the presence of marked religiousity or hyper-sensitivity to religious difference somehow make this not a land dispute? No, of course not, but it does make it more than just a land dispute, and does in a sense provide a cover for the ever-present ulterior or at least extra motive of asserting Muslim power over non-Muslims. Were that not the case in Minya at Deir Abu Fana, or in Ethiopia (or in Taybeh, or in El Kosheh, or in Jos, or in Mosul...), then we simply wouldn't see such actions going on in all of these cases. It is one thing to say that all of these things are the result of the religious nature of the societies, which I agree with, but I am saying that to leave it at that, or to ignore the religious dimensions of these conflicts in the face of the very real religious outcomes (~ successes for Islam, not necessarily the non-religious political aim) is missing a meaning of these struggles that I guarantee you the Muslims are not missing. Again I agree with your assessment to a point, but it is just not that simple.

As a point of comparison, the Italian and British colonial occupiers did build churches in various parts of Somalia that were under their control, and while some degree of proselytization probably did occur, it was doubtless not very successful (as Somalis have long maintained the myth that they are the only 100% Muslim people in the world; I wonder where the 200 martyrs spoken of in this interview with a Somali Christian came from? Maybe they were all from the Bantus that live in Somalia?). Just like the churches in Afghanistan and similar places, they were mostly used by the colonialists and other Westerners (diplomats and such). That didn't stop the Islamic militants of Al-Shabab from destroying the Catholic church in Kismayo pretty much as soon as they established their control over the area (I couldn't find a working link to this story other than Jihadwatch, which I don't want to increase the traffic to, but the AP apparently covered it on Sept. 30, 2008 if anyone is curious; I remember reading the original story). Again, you could say (and be right) that this was part of their reclaiming their land and cleansing it from colonialism. Fine, fine, but that ignores two very important facts: (1) The vast majority of Italians left in 1960, so it's not like it was a meeting ground for Christian missionaries (it hadn't been used in decades by anyone), and (2) when the militants did this, they said that they were doing it specifically to destroy all non-Muslim places of worship and replace them with Muslim mosques. Again, there is a plausible political reasoning that could no doubt form part of the motivation, but it overshadowed by the people's choice to put religious motive at the forefront of what they are doing. Even in places like Somalia with no discernible Christian presence, they just can't help themselves. Their "land disputes" and "political struggles" achieve religious ends because these religious ends motivate their land disputes and political struggles. You could argue similarly for Christianity, but I don't think the Amharicization of the Ethiopian political and social landscape lead to a 90% increase in the practice of Christianity among former Muslims as Gragn's military campaign did among Oromo former Christians. I am sorry, that is not an accident.

Bottom line: Religious war, political war...any time Islam is involved, there's no point in distinguishing the two, because Islam sure doesn't.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 10:11:39 PM by dzheremi » Logged

HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2011, 12:15:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Bottom line: Religious war, political war...any time Islam is involved, there's no point in distinguishing the two, because Islam sure doesn't.
Amen to your post, I really enjoyed reading it, I am glad you look into war enough to understand it is more complicated than just religion, and that several interacting factors all have their influence, agency, and impact in a war-zone.

However, aside from that spot on analysis, I disagree with your conclusion.  I was not trying to downplay the influence of religion in war, however some folks rarely acknowledge the politics.  War is a political action, and again, human beings are religious, so inherently war like all human activities becomes religious.  However, my argument and my perspective, is that when analyzing wars the geopolitical, economic, and sociocultural factors must take rank above the religious motivations.  Surely religion is very much a part of why people go to war, even say US soldiers fighting in seemingly non-religious military operations from Afghanistan to Colombia.  People take their religion with them on the march, especially considering the circumstances.  With the Gragn, surely his hording armies brought their religion with them, and yet to a degree theirs was not a holy war so to speak, because even when Christians crusade how we can really say people are being "religious" while shedding each others' blood? At the exact moment of carnage, there is no motivation other then the fight or flight self-preservation reaction to the danger of combat.  What keeps soldiers fighting month after month, year after year? A cocktail of the material gains of successful battles, the thrill of battle, the ideological pats on the back, the sentiment of revenge or justice, and of course the peer pressure of group-think. 

Religious thinking is part of the universal human experience (even atheists are absorbed in religion just to oppose it) and so of course it is part of war, but I think it is simplistic to assume that religion is in any way a primary motivator for actual combat, and so I would say there are really no religious wars at all. Of course, there is also no 100% so yes, from time to time, individual battles and incidents will be entirely religious in motivation, such as targeting religious sites as you mentioned, but even these instances are multifaceted.  What motivates individuals to take up arms or blow up buildings,even solely in the guise of religion, but certain socio-economic circumstances blended with other ideological influences at the perfect timing of some kind of growing specific grievance?  See, all these things must come together, hence why I called the Gragn's campaigns a perfect storm.

My point: it is naive for us to say that Islam is a warrior religion or that Islam does not distinguish between political and religious wars.  That is counterproductive and a fallacy argument against Islam, and surely they proffer the say claims against us, saying US soldiers are crusading against Islam.  When we wrongfully condemn Islam as a violent religion, we only fuel those mercenaries and warlords cause who claim to be crusading themselves against a religious foe.  Christianity is not a violent religion, but Christians (both governments and individuals) have been quite violent, and it is the same with Islam.

If we are careful in our analysis not to overemphasize the religious character of war, we find ourselves better equipped to deal with the more impacting factors such as the socioeconomic factors.  Further, we should only bring religion up in war to point out the places where it is wrong to use religion for war, not to argue that folks are waging religious wars against us.  It is against Islam to wage these holy wars, just as it is against Christianity, and if a few clerics or militias want to misquote Quranic verses the way American people used to lynch black people in the South while quoting the Old Testament, that is their business, ours is to proclaim the truth, not to give into the manipulative lies based upon fear, ignorance, or apathy.

Stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2011, 01:38:57 PM »


Yes, the Kingdom of Adal is to Somalis a highlight of their history, and the genocidal campaigns of the Ahmed Gragn have made him a folk hero because of his defeats against their bitter Ethiopian nemesis.  We know what he did is totally despicable, but war is complicated like that.  

I think there's a statute of limitations on genocide, though it takes a few centuries. People of Mongolian descent routinely glorify Chingis Khan, put up posters of him, etc.

Germans won't ever do that for Hitler, but maybe that's only because Hitler lost.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 01:40:01 PM by Iconodule » Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,028


« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2011, 01:41:08 PM »

However, aside from that spot on analysis, I disagree with your conclusion.  I was not trying to downplay the influence of religion in war, however some folks rarely acknowledge the politics.  War is a political action, and again, human beings are religious, so inherently war like all human activities becomes religious.  However, my argument and my perspective, is that when analyzing wars the geopolitical, economic, and sociocultural factors must take rank above the religious motivations.

I am not sure I agree with that. As I wrote, there are both religious and political motivations in everything (not just war), but when the people themselves decide to put their religious motivations for engaging in political behavior ahead of secular motives, then I do not see how you can say that the geopolitical factors must take rank above religious motivations (because, again, I don't see how you can separate the two, especially with regard to Islam since it professes theocracy as its explicit goal). I firmly believe that the Al-Qaeda types of the world see the current struggles they are engaged in in cosmic terms, such that even if the struggle on the ground is between Muslims and the government (whether a local government or a foreign government/occupation), the way they conceptualize it (not just the way they talk about it) is against Islam and not Islam (a non-Muslim religion or philosophy, or a lax/apostate regime). Of course, in all such conflicts, not Islam must be destroyed so that Islam can prevail and prevent corruption in the land, and blahblahblahblah.

Now, I am NOT saying that this kind of view is legitimate or the the view of all Muslims (or that this even really needs to be put in terms of Muslims v. everybody else, because I don't want to validate that outlook), but I am saying that this strong religious-political ideology is not just couched in religious language, but thought of in religious terms. It is similar, though not a perfect comparison, to the quasi-religious fervor for Marxism and communism in other times and places, or maybe Nazism during the height of Hitler's Germany (Hitler's often-observed "Messiah complex" is not just a convenient label for a delusion; if you look at his political rhetoric, it essentially has all the hallmarks of a prophetic religious system by another name).

So again, there is no real point in making such a strict separation between the political aims and the religious views that inevitably drive them. The two feed off each other in a kind of sick symbiosis.

Quote
Surely religion is very much a part of why people go to war, even say US soldiers fighting in seemingly non-religious military operations from Afghanistan to Colombia.  People take their religion with them on the march, especially considering the circumstances.


Absolutely.

Quote
With the Gragn, surely his hording armies brought their religion with them, and yet to a degree theirs was not a holy war so to speak, because even when Christians crusade how we can really say people are being "religious" while shedding each others' blood?


Ah, see, but I think you are making a mistake here, my friend: You start out talking about Gragn and his Muslim army, and then end by comparing them to the Christian standard of behavior or warfare. I think they are two separate standards. I see no such repudiation of Islamic war tactics (Muhammad's raids and whatnot) on the part of the Muslims that could be comparable to the repudiation of the Crusades by the inheritors of the Crusader "christianity". This clearly shows a different modus operandi at work among Muslims, relating back to their political and social stagnation that at its roots came with the liquidation of non-Muslim populations under expanding Islam. So for Muslims, it is a matter of "if it helps spread Islam, then it is religiously sanctioned/purified". (~ good, or at least never something to disavow)

Quote
At the exact moment of carnage, there is no motivation other then the fight or flight self-preservation reaction to the danger of combat.
 

Well, yes, but couldn't you say that about anything? In the exact moment of grocery shopping, it isn't about eating the food, but that certainly is the goal (and not by any less an essential part of the human person than religion, right? A person has to eat!). In the exact moment of flying on a plane, it's not about the destination, but just like war, you have to go through a potentially quite long and unpleasant experience to get to where you want to be...

Quote
What keeps soldiers fighting month after month, year after year? A cocktail of the material gains of successful battles, the thrill of battle, the ideological pats on the back, the sentiment of revenge or justice, and of course the peer pressure of group-think.

Indeed. And somewhere in there, for those who are so inclined, a religious view of the world that imparts a sense of holiness on all of these things.

Quote
Religious thinking is part of the universal human experience (even atheists are absorbed in religion just to oppose it) and so of course it is part of war, but I think it is simplistic to assume that religion is in any way a primary motivator for actual combat, and so I would say there are really no religious wars at all.


Hmmm. I would reply that there is no conflict in which religion is the only motivation, but there are plenty in which it is the primary motivation. Take, for instance, the Abu Sayyaf militant Islamic group in the Philippines. Ostensibly, they are fighting to liberate the Muslim-populated southern islands of the Philippines from domination of the central government. Here's the thing, though: They already have that, in the form of the Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao (that's the official name of the region!). They're the ONLY population in the Philippines that has such autonomy. And really, it only makes sense to have a "Muslim region" or government in Mindanao proper, as it is the only region in the Philippines with a significant Muslim presence. The rest of the population is largely Catholic, and the rest of the country is governed as a Constitutional Republic.

So...we have a group operating within an already "liberated" Muslim region to liberate...their already liberated region.  Huh Given that, what do you think that the group REALLY wants? I'll quote the BBC here: "Analysts say such attacks show the group - which is believed to have a core membership of around 200 - is trying to spark a religious war. The Philippines Government says Abu Sayyaf has been trying to evict Christians from its Basilan Island base." (source)

As I wrote earlier, it is about establishing Muslim dominance or control over all non-Muslim things (people, land, history, etc). That is explicitly a religious goal. In the Abu Sayyaf's case, they try to paint it in political terms, but since they already have what they say they want, what they really want is not hard to see by their actions.

It should be stated that Christians form a majority of the population of the "Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao",

Quote
My point: it is naive for us to say that Islam is a warrior religion or that Islam does not distinguish between political and religious wars.
 

Not any more naive than to say that it is not. And my point was not meant to be that Islam does not distinguish between political and religious aims in war (such that they would not make a distinction between gaining mere territory and gaining converts), but that Islam does not distinguish between the political and the religious period. That's the essence of what theocracy is. The two are intertwined. And with Islam, theocracy is the goal.

Quote
That is counterproductive and a fallacy argument against Islam, and surely they proffer the say claims against us, saying US soldiers are crusading against Islam.  When we wrongfully condemn Islam as a violent religion, we only fuel those mercenaries and warlords cause who claim to be crusading themselves against a religious foe.  Christianity is not a violent religion, but Christians (both governments and individuals) have been quite violent, and it is the same with Islam.

Alright, this is entering some territory in which my reply might be seen as very uncharitable, and I don't want that. I respect your position, but very much disagree with any equivalency that could be made on ANY side between Islam and Christianity. As my chosen form of Christian living (Coptic Orthodoxy) fled such earthly power and riches and inspired the world to do the same through the powerful example of St. Anthony the Great, I have no stake in nor time to entertain arguments about what Christian governments or people have done that you might compare with Islam. I would not make such a comparison, because when Christians have done that (and they definitely have), it was flagrantly against their religion. When Muslims do that, it is in line with actions and sayings of their prophet, the perfect example for all Muslims everywhere and always, etc. There is no comparison that you can make that isn't apologetic fodder for Islam, and frankly I am not interested in adding to that.

Quote
If we are careful in our analysis not to overemphasize the religious character of war, we find ourselves better equipped to deal with the more impacting factors such as the socioeconomic factors.


Yes, but I should say that the ones who really need to learn not to overemphasize the religious character of war are the Muslims, not me or you.  Smiley

Quote
Further, we should only bring religion up in war to point out the places where it is wrong to use religion for war, not to argue that folks are waging religious wars against us.  It is against Islam to wage these holy wars, just as it is against Christianity, and if a few clerics or militias want to misquote Quranic verses the way American people used to lynch black people in the South while quoting the Old Testament, that is their business, ours is to proclaim the truth, not to give into the manipulative lies based upon fear, ignorance, or apathy.

Do you speak Arabic, Habte? I only speak a little, but even I know what "Al-Anfal" is ("the spoils of war"). This was not placed in the Qur'an by non-Muslims to make Islam look bad. Neither were any of the terrible and violent passages in the Hadith or the Sira. I would be careful my friend before asserting who is misquoting what.

Stay blessed,
habte selassie
[/quote]
Logged

Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2011, 01:51:13 PM »

Selam Smiley

There is indeed a monument to his atrocities, Hiwot. But it is in Mogadishu, Somalia, where I guess the Somalis treat him like a real Somali national hero. Shocked Roll Eyes Here is a link to the picture of it from Wikipedia: Ahmed Gragn statue, Mogadishu

I am glad to hear that they did not build the statue of him in Ethiopia. That would be like building a statue of Hitler in the middle of Tel Aviv. How people could think of that...it really shocks me...but you are right, people have to try to learn and remember the real history, and in every place where Islam went in its quest to conquer the world, there were already native Christians to tell the real story of the lands that are now Islamic. So the history is out there, but it is not as accessible as the Saudi-funded whitewash literature (like Muslims' favorite that our OP might want to check out, Maurice Baucalle's laughably insane "The Bible, the Qur'an, and Science", published in 1976 while he was in the employ of the king of Saudi Arabia; and if you don't think that had an effect on the contents, I've got some prime land to sell you in Mecca). If you read only the popular (read: fashionable) accounts from Muslims and Islamic-sycophant Westerners (why don't they just convert already?) that make up the modern narrative, you might come away thinking that Islam is pretty great. If, however, you read more from Syriacs, Copts, Ethiopians, Maronites, and others who have lived under Islam for centuries, maybe then you'll have the true balance that the historians think they're getting by relying on Islamic/Arab sources. It's just a dream for now, but maybe someday...  

yes indeed! dzheremi,it is absolutely maddening, when someone lies to you blatantly like they are doing. your knowledge of Ethiopian history and the right one at that makes me very happy my brother, it says to me the truth will go on living. they attempted to erect a monument to Gragn in the heart of the place where he committed such atrocities as if he was some kind of hero. well lets just say that was nipped on the bud and the monument did not see the light of the day. there is a lot that we will leave unsaid here. However, we have not forgotten, nor will we ever forget!

May God bless you with long healthy life dzhemeri, you made my day today my brother.  Grin

Selam dzheremi, yes I know his monument is in Somalia, it might even be eventually erected in Ethiopia in the prominently Muslim regions, those that wanted to do it were thinking of erecting it in the heart of where those atrocities have happened. we are not confused about the nature of these things, as you have correctly said it is not now that we are aware of what Islam can do when in power, it is not now  that we have seen the terror unleashed by the sword of the Mohammedans , it is not now that we realised the potential destructive power of that religion, and how it has been tapped and is being tapped time and again against us. The west might have been 'surprised' but all those who have been battling the merciless and uncompromising war of the Muslim invasion both under Islamic regimes and even from outside for them this has been  going on for nearly 1500 years now.
speaking of monuments, you know the city of Axum is a very sacred and holy city for Christians of Ethiopia, and the Muslims have been trying to build a mosque near by St.Zion the most holiest place in Ethiopia where everyone child or old is hyper vigilant in guarding that place. the kings that were asked by Muslim emissaries to allow the building of  a mosque in Axum their reply has been ' only when Christians are allowed to build a Church in Mecca then we will allow the building of a Mosque in Axum' this fortunately was honored by the present government also, and the people of Axum tore down the illegal building attempt of a mosque that was done . this is to say we are not for one moment confused about where we stand in the eyes of Islam and Islamic rules, way of life,etc. we will guard what we have without the necessity of being politically correct on these matters of great importance. we know what the triumph of the islamic rule and dominance would mean. if we are today 'coexisting' with the sporiadic killings of the christians by the muslims here and there, it is because in Ethiopia the christians are still a majority, not because Islam is a peaceful ideology. there is no grey area for both sides, it is all very clear , has been for more than a Millennia.

May the Peace of the Lord be with us all.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2011, 02:29:13 PM »

Selam
Habte, I disagree that there are no religious wars, infact I think most wars are religious ones. what is religion for most people who sincerely practice it? it is a way of life, it is an ideology that dictate their way of life, their political outlook, their economical behaviors, sociocultural interactions etc. it is what people breath drink eat,dress talk etc. in such sense it is The most powerful ideology that is able to permeate every part of human existence, social political economic,cultural etc. wars might have economic interest in them but at the heart people fight to preserve or maintain away of life that way of life that tells them what their earthly and heavenly life should be like. soldiers die for ideologies they want to live for. that ideology can be greed, it has its own motivational factor, but religious belief is the most powerful motivator as  an ideology.

when Christianity is fully practiced it tells the practitioner to love even ones enemy. it does not say agree with him yet it says love him pray for him, and we can all agree those who deviate from the message of Christianity are not practicing it right. we can not say the same to Islam where jihad is holy and has been practiced in spreading Islam. the sword made Islam strong. it is irrelevant what the west says today, about Islam, it is not a new message nor are we agreeing with all the elements involved in the present situation. however even while we disagree with some actions taken , wars waged both past and present by christian or none christian( secular)  regimes, it does not change the fact that there is still an ongoing battle for dominance by the Islamic forces, the balance then is to extend christian charity to those who would not return it, and still maintain proper vigilance in keeping our way of life and testimony of Truth as we know it in the face of obvious threat. we have never considered the impass as peace only momentary truce enforced by the relatively christian culture  being in power globally. but that can change, and if it does we have no illusion about what will await us regardless of political economic social differences or unity, the Islamic religion and way of life will dictate what we eat, what we dress, what we read, what we say, what we do, everything.

so what does it say about our Muslim friends, I am a believer that humanity is good, thus there are good Muslim people,  Islam however is another matter. so how should I treat my Muslim neighbor? in peace and in love. should i not speak of the evil inherent with the full practice of all Islamic principles? No! great evil is done by keeping silent when one has to speak. The Islamic countries are great example of what the world will be like under such rule. notice the inter connection and dominance of religion with all sector of public and individual life.

Selam to you Smiley
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2011, 02:31:40 PM »

Ah! dehzemri, while it took me forever to compose my reply you have already posted yours, and all I can say is Awesome!!!

Selam Smiley
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.137 seconds with 56 queries.