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Author Topic: Demonic Aspects of Karate, etc.  (Read 7686 times) Average Rating: 0
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serb1389
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« on: August 29, 2011, 06:36:07 PM »

This is based on a thread discussion here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39214.msg629700.html#msg629700

Here are some of the highlights, to begin the discussion. 

How do you know that martial arts is a doorway to demonic activity?

because i've met people who have lived through it.  And I believe them. 

Plus the spiritual lessons of the orthodox church are very clear about this.  If you open yourself, but don't fill yourself with Christ, in ANY WAY, including stretching, kicking, etc. then you are opening yourself to demons. bottom line. 
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 06:44:03 PM »

Similar arguments can be made (and refuted) for rock music, painting, sports, etc.

There are so many kinds of martial arts, from so many different places, that it is simply impossible to make a generalization like this from the experience of a few people you've met.
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 06:47:36 PM »

This is based on a thread discussion here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39214.msg629700.html#msg629700

Here are some of the highlights, to begin the discussion.  

How do you know that martial arts is a doorway to demonic activity?

because i've met people who have lived through it.  And I believe them.  

Plus the spiritual lessons of the orthodox church are very clear about this.  If you open yourself, but don't fill yourself with Christ, in ANY WAY, including stretching, kicking, etc. then you are opening yourself to demons. bottom line.  

I always wonder on how much people trust the power of the Devil. So many people go to Church and because they don't believe, don't understand or are dowright lazy, are not touched by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But if you slip on a pentagram and fall on the floor that's veritable hell-condemning Satan worship. C'mon you can't even be a lapsed satanist?

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- Billy, why you don't want to kick the panda?

- Oh, mom, c'mon. You and daddy keep taking me to that Black Mass but it's booooooooring... besides, I think I actually like cute animals!

- Morning star! Zebbie, come over here and listen what your son is saying!

- What's the trouble, what's going on here?

- Billy won't kick the panda.

- And I won't channel the Elder Gods anymore. It makes me feel dizzy. I will keep the inverted pentagram you gave me out of respect, but my heart is elsewhere. I want to be a wild animals veterinary and heal them instead of gutting them alive.

- Where have we failed you, Billy?

The devil is not more powerful than God. Most people who go to martial arts, yoga, etc, couldn't care less about the esoteric mambo-jambo that *some* instructors teach. I concede there is real danger if the person actually tries to follow said mambo-jambo, but for most people it's just exercizing in a way more meaningful than going to the gym.

In fact, my judo and karate teachers in my teen years taught the kids to be moral, ethical, to avoid fighting, to respect our friends and even, as my karate sensei told us back then, that we should respect our competitor, even when we lost, and not thing of revenge, nor get angry. In fact, we should still be friends, still love each other and be happy for *his* victory.  How many people out there tell you that you should be happy even for those who are winners over you being the loser because it still your friend? Had he said that the other person is my brother would that have made that much difference? I don't think so, and it strikes me as very Christian even today.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 06:55:19 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 06:56:10 PM »

Similar arguments can be made (and refuted) for rock music, painting, sports, etc.

There are so many kinds of martial arts, from so many different places, that it is simply impossible to make a generalization like this from the experience of a few people you've met.

it's not a generalization.  Unless we are defining that word differently. 

Rather, it is a core spiritual truth.  Pseudo-Dionysios in his ascetical homilies said that when you fast you take something away from your life, but you fill yourself with christ.  to do otherwise is to leave yourself open to be filled with the devil. 

I would wager to say this is true in all aspects of life.  Should we shut down our TV's and everything else we do?  I'd like to answer that question by posing a proposition:  how much more filled with the blessings of God would our lives be if we did it his way. 

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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 07:00:06 PM »

St. Basil said we could benefit from reading Homer and Plato. There is definitely a place for wholesome secular art and activity within the Christian life.
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 07:08:30 PM »

This is based on a thread discussion here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39214.msg629700.html#msg629700

Here are some of the highlights, to begin the discussion.  

How do you know that martial arts is a doorway to demonic activity?

because i've met people who have lived through it.  And I believe them.  

Plus the spiritual lessons of the orthodox church are very clear about this.  If you open yourself, but don't fill yourself with Christ, in ANY WAY, including stretching, kicking, etc. then you are opening yourself to demons. bottom line.  

I always wonder on how much people trust the power of the Devil. So many people go to Church and because they don't believe, don't understand or are dowright lazy, are not touched by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But if you slip on a pentagram and fall on the floor that's veritable hell-condemning Satan worship. C'mon you can't even be a lapsed satanist?

The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO.  

Quote
Quote
- Billy, why you don't want to kick the panda?

- Oh, mom, c'mon. You and daddy keep taking me to that Black Mass but it's booooooooring... besides, I think I actually like cute animals!

- Morning star! Zebbie, come over here and listen what your son is saying!

- What's the trouble, what's going on here?

- Billy won't kick the panda.

- And I won't channel the Elder Gods anymore. It makes me feel dizzy. I will keep the inverted pentagram you gave me out of respect, but my heart is elsewhere. I want to be a wild animals veterinary and heal them instead of gutting them alive.

- Where have we failed you, Billy?

The devil is not more powerful than God. Most people who go to martial arts, yoga, etc, couldn't care less about the esoteric mambo-jambo that *some* instructors teach. I concede there is real danger if the person actually tries to follow said mambo-jambo, but for most people it's just exercizing in a way more meaningful than going to the gym.

You are right about the first part.  I will say though as I said above, he has only whatever power we give him.  

There is a real danger.  For you to think that there isn't, is exactly why we started this topic.  Excercizing?  Opening yourself to new positions that your body was not supposed to go into?  Feeling like you released all this tension in your body?  Don't the desert fathers talk ad nausea about how some demons will leave you but others will come to take their place & they play off of each other in this game?  These are not things that should just be brushed off b/c they seem outlandish.  This is the unseen warfare we SHOULD be discussing.  

Quote
In fact, my judo and karate teachers in my teen years taught the kids to be moral, ethical, to avoid fighting, to respect our friends and even, as my karate sensei told us back then, that we should respect our competitor, even when we lost, and not thing of revenge, nor get angry. In fact, we should still be friends, still love each other and be happy for *his* victory.  How many people out there tell you that you should be happy even for those who are winners over you being the loser because it still your friend? Had he said that the other person is my brother would that have made that much difference? I don't think so, and it strikes me as very Christian even today.

While I am glad that you were able to walk away with great friendships, I think those were formed out of who you were before the sensei, not necessarily during or after.  

I would also like to point out that even the devil can appear as a bright light, showing you the way.  We should always be careful who we put our trust in, and why.  
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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 07:08:53 PM »

St. Basil said we could benefit from reading Homer and Plato. There is definitely a place for wholesome secular art and activity within the Christian life.

Sure.  He also would not have been ok to be their disciples. 
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 07:12:28 PM »

St. Basil said we could benefit from reading Homer and Plato. There is definitely a place for wholesome secular art and activity within the Christian life.

Sure.  He also would not have been ok to be their disciples. 

St. Basil studied under pagan philosophers like many other educated Christian men of the time, including St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian.
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 07:26:43 PM »

St. Basil said we could benefit from reading Homer and Plato. There is definitely a place for wholesome secular art and activity within the Christian life.

Sure.  He also would not have been ok to be their disciples. 

St. Basil studied under pagan philosophers like many other educated Christian men of the time, including St. John Chrysostom and St. Gregory the Theologian.

Right.  2 things:

1.  discipleship doesn't always entail participation.  also, hearing it doesn't mean they did it or lived it.  In the cases you have above, of course, they did use the rhetorical & philosophical skills they used.  However, the former point I made in this sentence should still be said for the general conversation.

2.  Philosophy and rhetoric, even based on pagan principles, is still different in my mind than physically opening yourself to unwarranted acts.

ON top of all this, what St. Basil, et al. did was CHRISTIANIZE the rhetoric & used it to the Glory of God.  None of that happening in any kind of karate or pilates that I know of. 
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2011, 11:05:35 AM »

Quote
The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO. 

There's nothing mystical about breaking boards or bricks -- it's just physics. Anybody can learn to do so, no mysticism required.

There's a lot of martial arts that aren't Eastern, by the way. The big problem with Eastern martial arts such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, wing chun, etc. isn't that they are demonic, but that they are mostly useless. There are plenty of Western martial arts that are actually good for fighting, such as boxing, Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sambo, and krav maga. None of these have any mystical or spiritual traditions attached to them, and neither do muay thai kickboxing or judo, two Eastern martial arts that are actually useful.

The martial artist who stands in a fancy posture and channels his inner qi will almost always lose to the guy who just punches him in the face, throws him to the ground, and puts him in an armlock.
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 11:59:13 AM »

Quote
The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO. 

There's nothing mystical about breaking boards or bricks -- it's just physics. Anybody can learn to do so, no mysticism required.

There's a lot of martial arts that aren't Eastern, by the way. The big problem with Eastern martial arts such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, wing chun, etc. isn't that they are demonic, but that they are mostly useless. There are plenty of Western martial arts that are actually good for fighting, such as boxing, Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sambo, and krav maga. None of these have any mystical or spiritual traditions attached to them, and neither do muay thai kickboxing or judo, two Eastern martial arts that are actually useful.

The martial artist who stands in a fancy posture and channels his inner qi will almost always lose to the guy who just punches him in the face, throws him to the ground, and puts him in an armlock.

[rant]
please tell me that you did not just call wing chun useless. wing chun, when taught and applied properly, is one of the most versatile styles there is; for example, i have personally witnessed wing chun defeat boxing, taekwondo, karate, and jiujitsu. krav maga actually utilizes wing chun, muy thai and kali to be one of the deadliest martial arts around, but kali is already very similar to wing chun and muy thai adds some kicks (everything else such as elbow and knee use is already found in wing chun) to an otherwise short range system so a krav maga practitioner and a wing chun practitioner would be on equal ground.
Oh, and wing chun is a style of kung fu.

Also, channeling ones inner qi is not a long, drawn out process, and can be done effortlessly during a fight, causing no distraction...
[/rant]

other than that I agree with your post.

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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 12:08:56 PM »

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please tell me that you did not just call wing chun useless. wing chun, when taught and applied properly, is one of the most versatile styles there is; for example, i have personally witnessed wing chun defeat boxing, taekwondo, karate, and jiujitsu. krav maga actually utilizes wing chun, muy thai and kali to be one of the deadliest martial arts around, but kali is already very similar to wing chun and muy thai adds some kicks (everything else such as elbow and knee use is already found in wing chun) to an otherwise short range system so a krav maga practitioner and a wing chun practitioner would be on equal ground.

Vids, or it didn't happen.

Quote
Also, channeling ones inner qi is not a long, drawn out process, and can be done effortlessly during a fight, causing no distraction...

I find eating a lot of beans helps me channel my inner qi. Those around me tend to object, though.
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 12:09:14 PM »

While I would not think it beneficial for an Orthodox Christian to participate in martial arts in general, I do have to admit the utmost respect for the Orthodox mixed martial artist Fedor Emelienenko.  I do not follow sports of any kind, but I have the greatest respect for both Fedor and the NFL player Troy Polamalu.  Observing how they conduct themselves in competition, in interviews, and outside of competition has led me to consider that even in these aggressive and combative sports a man can conduct himself as pious Orthodox Christian.  

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10 February 2010, 17:26
World champion in mixed martial arts observes fast, listens to church music and reads about Orthodox ascetics

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6922

Moscow, February 10, Interfax - World champion in mixed martial arts Fedor Yemelyanenko confessed he loved to listen to church music and read Orthodox literature.

“I’ve read a book not long ago and I liked it very much, it was Ivan Shmelev’s The Summer of the Lord. Now I’m reading about great Orthodox ascetics of the 20th century,” the renowned fighter was quoted as saying by the Valetudo.ru.

The fighter also said he used Internet only to learn something new about life of saints and liked to eat when there was no fast. “Now it’s Maslenitsa and next week is a strict fast.”

According to the sportsman, he spares no effort to win in his profession and hopes for God’s will. He says he is happy and mentions that lives “with God in my soul,” and goes to the Church.

Yemelyanenko also stated he was concerned with ideals of modern-day youth.

“There are real, nonfictional heroes like Alexander Nevsky, Dimitry Donskoy, Peresvet. They are great warriors and we have to be equal to them. They are not invented by cinematograph, they are heroes who proved their heroism by their lives. They gave their lives for the honor of Russia,” the world champion stressed.

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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 12:26:21 PM »

Quote
please tell me that you did not just call wing chun useless. wing chun, when taught and applied properly, is one of the most versatile styles there is; for example, i have personally witnessed wing chun defeat boxing, taekwondo, karate, and jiujitsu. krav maga actually utilizes wing chun, muy thai and kali to be one of the deadliest martial arts around, but kali is already very similar to wing chun and muy thai adds some kicks (everything else such as elbow and knee use is already found in wing chun) to an otherwise short range system so a krav maga practitioner and a wing chun practitioner would be on equal ground.

Vids, or it didn't happen.

Quote
Also, channeling ones inner qi is not a long, drawn out process, and can be done effortlessly during a fight, causing no distraction...

I find eating a lot of beans helps me channel my inner qi. Those around me tend to object, though.

So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed? Roll Eyes So I guess God didn't create the universe because there are no vids of it? Or I'm not laying in a cot in Kuwait because there is no video of me doing so? I wish i did have video, but I personally do not, some others might, or even youtube might, those were great matches but I did not and do not have a video camera for such things.

You might try a video search of rusty gray vs david deaton, don't know if that willl turn anything up though
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 12:32:04 PM »

So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed? Roll Eyes

Your word is as good as gold, as far as I'm concerned, soldier.
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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2011, 12:51:42 PM »

Quote
So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed?  So I guess God didn't create the universe because there are no vids of it? Or I'm not laying in a cot in Kuwait because there is no video of me doing so? I wish i did have video, but I personally do not, some others might, or even youtube might, those were great matches but I did not and do not have a video camera for such things.

Dude, I don't know you. To me, you're just some guy on the internet. I'm not a martial arts practitioner of any sort, but just a powerlifter, which community overlaps quite a bit with MMA. I'm not saying the fights you say you saw never happened, but I've seen quite a bit of evidence for the effectiveness of BJJ (and others), and absolutely none for wing chun, and the word of some guy on the internet isn't really that compelling of evidence.
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2011, 12:59:03 PM »

boxing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  mma > everything else

Though now that I think about it, there may very well be some demonic activity in boxing (Mike Tyson?)
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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2011, 01:07:31 PM »

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So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed?  So I guess God didn't create the universe because there are no vids of it? Or I'm not laying in a cot in Kuwait because there is no video of me doing so? I wish i did have video, but I personally do not, some others might, or even youtube might, those were great matches but I did not and do not have a video camera for such things.

Dude, I don't know you. To me, you're just some guy on the internet. I'm not a martial arts practitioner of any sort, but just a powerlifter, which community overlaps quite a bit with MMA. I'm not saying the fights you say you saw never happened, but I've seen quite a bit of evidence for the effectiveness of BJJ (and others), and absolutely none for wing chun, and the word of some guy on the internet isn't really that compelling of evidence.

I should clarify one thing -- I have no problem believing that a wing chun practitioner could defeat a practitioner of taekwondo or karate. (I listed them all in the "useless" category earlier.) It's boxing or BJJ that I have trouble believing. When it comes to fighting, cultivated inner strength always loses to plain old f*cking sh*t up.
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2011, 01:16:47 PM »

So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed? Roll Eyes

Your word is as good as gold, as far as I'm concerned, soldier.

Thank you.

Quote
So, now I need video to verify what I personally witnessed?  So I guess God didn't create the universe because there are no vids of it? Or I'm not laying in a cot in Kuwait because there is no video of me doing so? I wish i did have video, but I personally do not, some others might, or even youtube might, those were great matches but I did not and do not have a video camera for such things.

Dude, I don't know you. To me, you're just some guy on the internet. I'm not a martial arts practitioner of any sort, but just a powerlifter, which community overlaps quite a bit with MMA. I'm not saying the fights you say you saw never happened, but I've seen quite a bit of evidence for the effectiveness of BJJ (and others), and absolutely none for wing chun, and the word of some guy on the internet isn't really that compelling of evidence.

I completely understand, and I wish I did have video to show. I believe that every martial art is effective if taught well, but it seems that when the Eastern arts moved West they lost a lot of substance, this is true even in Wing Chun where there is a difference in Hong Kong style Wing Chun (which is really watered down) and the style I practice. An art's efficiency is multiplied if you have an instructor who is knowledgeable in different art forms and can thus use his own from against another form. In my own classes we were taught Wing Chun, how to use certain styles such as Muy Thai and Kali with Wing Chun, and how to defeat other styles like boxing, Karate, Taekwondo, and Jui-Jitsu.  But if you are not a practitioner then you really can not judge certain art forms against others; I have personally studied the forms I mentioned above and have found Wing Chun to be the most effective and adaptive.

I should clarify one thing -- I have no problem believing that a wing chun practitioner could defeat a practitioner of taekwondo or karate. (I listed them all in the "useless" category earlier.) It's boxing or BJJ that I have trouble believing. When it comes to fighting, cultivated inner strength always loses to plain old f*cking sh*t up.

Wing Chun really isn't that much about inner strength as much as it is about using minimal strength and energy. Because a Wing Chun practitioner is relaxed during the fight by using speed and minimal movements he can easily over power a boxer or a BJJ practitioner. Its complicated to explain, but even when punching, blocking, and kicking the practitioner is relaxed so their opponent tires out quickly when they resort to "f*cking sh*t up."

But enough of our tangent, let's not derail the thread any further.
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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2011, 01:44:01 PM »

Quote
The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO. 

There's nothing mystical about breaking boards or bricks -- it's just physics. Anybody can learn to do so, no mysticism required.

There's a lot of martial arts that aren't Eastern, by the way. The big problem with Eastern martial arts such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, wing chun, etc. isn't that they are demonic, but that they are mostly useless. There are plenty of Western martial arts that are actually good for fighting, such as boxing, Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sambo, and krav maga. None of these have any mystical or spiritual traditions attached to them, and neither do muay thai kickboxing or judo, two Eastern martial arts that are actually useful.

The martial artist who stands in a fancy posture and channels his inner qi will almost always lose to the guy who just punches him in the face, throws him to the ground, and puts him in an armlock.

How is it physics?  I'm actually interested in knowing b/c i've heard this argument before & i'm not buying it. 

As for your other thought, it is interesting that there are 2 different branches of martial arts.  to be honest, I never knew that. 

As for the tangents, to be honest, they are interesting & perhaps even informative b/c they do show that there may not be a "catch-all" type of approach that is the best in terms of this subject, but should be a little more individualistic with an approach looking at exactly what is going on, in what way, towards what purpose, etc. 
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« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2011, 01:56:56 PM »

Quote
The devil has only what power we give him.  For us to say that doing stretches that put our bodies into unorthodox positions (i'm using the word unorthodox in both ways), as well as channeling our "inner power" to break through things that arn't supposed be broken by human hands?  Quite the quandary IMO. 

There's nothing mystical about breaking boards or bricks -- it's just physics. Anybody can learn to do so, no mysticism required.

There's a lot of martial arts that aren't Eastern, by the way. The big problem with Eastern martial arts such as karate, kung fu, taekwondo, aikido, wing chun, etc. isn't that they are demonic, but that they are mostly useless. There are plenty of Western martial arts that are actually good for fighting, such as boxing, Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sambo, and krav maga. None of these have any mystical or spiritual traditions attached to them, and neither do muay thai kickboxing or judo, two Eastern martial arts that are actually useful.

The martial artist who stands in a fancy posture and channels his inner qi will almost always lose to the guy who just punches him in the face, throws him to the ground, and puts him in an armlock.

How is it physics?  I'm actually interested in knowing b/c i've heard this argument before & i'm not buying it. 


Ever notice that when a board is being broken it's always down the middle? The support from the two sides (whether it be by hand or some form of platform) means that the weakest part of the board (or block) is going to be dead center. It's simply a matter of some force directed against the center, and learning the physics of the body to properly apply that force.

Quote
As for your other thought, it is interesting that there are 2 different branches of martial arts.  to be honest, I never knew that. 

As for the tangents, to be honest, they are interesting & perhaps even informative b/c they do show that there may not be a "catch-all" type of approach that is the best in terms of this subject, but should be a little more individualistic with an approach looking at exactly what is going on, in what way, towards what purpose, etc. 

I don't think there are two "branches" martial arts, such as Eastern and Western- though many of the martial arts in the Far East are descendants of kung fu (and if the legends are to be believed Indian boxing). It's more that every culture that has warriors has developed it's own form of style for fighting based on whatever types of weapons were in vogue at the time of the "art's" development. So there are English martial arts- Marquis of Queensbury boxing, European martial arts such as fencing, the chivalric martial arts a knight in full armor would have used, etc.

Although I don't know if I would consider the ancient Grecian wrestling to be a martial art, so much as foreplay, at least by the time of Socrates  Cheesy
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« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2011, 01:58:15 PM »

Quote
How is it physics?  I'm actually interested in knowing b/c i've heard this argument before & i'm not buying it.

Wood and bricks are a lot weaker, and your hands a lot stronger, than you would think. It's the same principle as hitting it with a hammer -- a sufficiently large force concentrated in a sufficiently small area. No different than breaking a window with a pebble. See here.

Quote
As for your other thought, it is interesting that there are 2 different branches of martial arts.  to be honest, I never knew that.

It's not so much that there are two branches, but that in the east, martial arts tended to get mixed up with religion and philosophy, and to be seen as a way to enlightenment, and in the west, they stayed purely in the secular realm, and were seen as a way to win a fight.
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« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2011, 02:06:03 PM »

Quote
How is it physics?  I'm actually interested in knowing b/c i've heard this argument before & i'm not buying it.

Wood and bricks are a lot weaker, and your hands a lot stronger, than you would think. It's the same principle as hitting it with a hammer -- a sufficiently large force concentrated in a sufficiently small area. No different than breaking a window with a pebble. See here.

Quote
As for your other thought, it is interesting that there are 2 different branches of martial arts.  to be honest, I never knew that.

It's not so much that there are two branches, but that in the east, martial arts tended to get mixed up with religion and philosophy, and to be seen as a way to enlightenment, and in the west, they stayed purely in the secular realm, and were seen as a way to win a fight.

Interesting Link.  One question:  What about brick?  Cement?

That's interesting.  Never knew there was a distinction.  Would you say that perhaps the people who THINK they are doing nothing are disillusioned?  I think there is a danger of this for sure. 

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« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2011, 02:10:54 PM »

It's not so much that there are two branches, but that in the east, martial arts tended to get mixed up with religion and philosophy, and to be seen as a way to enlightenment, and in the west, they stayed purely in the secular realm, and were seen as a way to win a fight.
Especially in China, they're more secular still, until some dude takes the art to America and becomes the Tai Chi Swami to all the impressionable white folks.
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« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2011, 02:11:26 PM »

One question:  What about brick?  Cement?

Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2011, 02:13:23 PM »

There is a real danger.  For you to think that there isn't, is exactly why we started this topic.  Excercizing?  Opening yourself to new positions that your body was not supposed to go into?  Feeling like you released all this tension in your body?
How do you know what positions the human body is "supposed" to go into?

Releasing tension is part of exercise. I don't think the Fathers despised exercise. It seems, Father, that you are projecting the qualities of religious Hindu Yoga onto all martial arts.
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« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2011, 02:26:54 PM »

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Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2011, 02:46:16 PM »

I have been a martial artist for over 20 years and I have studied quite a few arts. The "mystical" nature of many martial arts is not at all traditional. A few examples if I may, from the arts I study:

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is. Some are "spiritual" in nature, some arent.

Karate - Designed because weapons were illegal. Thats why the karate weapons are farming implements.

Muay Thai - Nothing spiritual at all in the actual practice however alot of practitioners tend to be and correlate the art to it but this is not the traditional teachings.

Aikido - Yes, this does have a spiritual element as far as relating the samurai but the style's practice has little to do with spirituality.

I think all in all you gotta take them one at a time and see what the tenets are.



Quote
Because a cement brick is less flexible than wood it's actually easier to break when struck dead center.

Yep. Throw a wood block and a cement brick of equal dimensions at a wall and see which one breaks first.

All block breaking is stupid.


PP
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2011, 02:56:32 PM »

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is.
This is actually a myth.  Wink

And I'm a Shaolin guy.
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2011, 02:59:28 PM »

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is.
This is actually a myth.  Wink

And I'm a Shaolin guy.
Thats not what my sifu says.


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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2011, 03:00:14 PM »

Gung-Fu - Was indeed invented by a buddist monk (Bhodidharma a.k.a. Tamo) but was not meant for any spiritual growth. He saw the monks were weak and flabby and also were getting assaulted by bandits on the roads. It was designed as excercises to make them healthier which evolved into the family of forms that it is.
This is actually a myth.  Wink

And I'm a Shaolin guy.
Thats not what my sifu says.


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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2011, 03:01:14 PM »

Im not calling you a liar BTW.

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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2011, 03:16:39 PM »

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All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.
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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2011, 03:22:52 PM »

Quote
All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Nope. If I did my wife would kill me for messing up her walls.

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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2011, 03:25:59 PM »

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All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.

My teacher tried to break 4 cement capping blocks with his head for an advertisement.

He hurt himself

So it goes
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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2011, 03:32:37 PM »

Quote
All block breaking is stupid.

You've clearly never thrown cement blocks at a wall.

My teacher tried to break 4 cement capping blocks with his head for an advertisement.

He hurt himself

So it goes


Exactly. Thats why we build with blocks...they're harder than we are Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2011, 03:52:19 PM »

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let's consider exactly what a "classical" martial art style really is. To begin with, we must recognize the incontrovertible fact that regardless of their many colorful origins (by a wise, mysterious monk, by a special messenger in a dream, in a holy revelation, etc.) styles are created by men.
(...)
A teacher, a really good sensei, is never a 'giver' of "truth"; he is a guide, a 'pointer' to the truth that the student must discover for himself. A good teacher, therefore, studies each student individually and encourages the student to explore himself, both internally and externally, until, ultimately, the student is integrated with his being. For example, a skillful teacher might spur his student's growth by confronting him with certain frustrations. A good teacher is a catalyst. Besides possessing a deep understanding, he must also have a responsive mind with great flexibility and sensitivity.
Bruce Lee in Liberate Yourself from Classical Karate
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2011, 04:31:08 PM »

Similar arguments can be made (and refuted) for rock music, painting, sports, etc.

There is nothing wrong with sports, they make boys into men, and I love them.

Rock Music was created by God for ME to be happy.
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2011, 04:50:14 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2011, 04:51:58 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.
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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2011, 04:53:30 PM »

these 'non-spiritual' martial arts, can you do them while praying, Lord Jesus have mercy on me? or do you have to be totally 'empty'?
If you can do the Jesus prayer while running a marathon, riding on a subway, playing football, waking up in the morning, etc, why not?

Martial arts aren't inherently spiritual. They can have spirituality attached to them, and may mirror certain philosophies, but the techniques themselves are not religious.
Exactly Smiley

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« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2011, 04:54:44 PM »

All the classic Olympic Sports used to have religious significance given to them, but we don't worry about such things today.
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« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2011, 05:41:09 PM »

All the classic Olympic Sports used to have religious significance given to them, but we don't worry about such things today.

But those are Greek and everyone knows Orthodoxy is just Hellenism with some Slavs grafted on.

PS: good point!
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« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2011, 05:46:25 PM »

For every hour of karate you could be doing the Jesus Prayer.  Just a thought.

Father, could you not make this argument about almost anything? Should I throw out my cello and my playstation?

I look forward to your link.

Sorry it took me all day to get to this. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39257.msg630789.html#msg630789

also, I think there is a place & time for everything.  We should not be extreme in either case.  Having video games as a way to relax I think in the real world is fine.  Is it the best thing to be doing?  I think we can both agree on the answer to this question.  Are there better ways to spend your time?  Yes.  Is the devil going to attack you no matter what you do, yes. 

However, doing Karate & other disciplines in that vein are much more dangerous b/c you are actively pursuing opening yourself up to things, whether or not you are aware of it or want it.  Let's continue that discussion in the other thread though. 

Father, thank you for this reply in the other thread.

I can understand your wariness towards the Eastern martial arts, given many of them traditionally have a spiritual component, I am having trouble not being convinced by some of the counter-arguments in this thread, however.
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« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2011, 05:58:30 PM »

Chemistry has its origin in Alchemy.

Byzantine music owes a lot to Pagan Pythagoric theories of music as a healing tool.

Christian associate meaning to numbers in a novel fashion than Pythagoreans themselves, but associate it nevertheless.

Scriptures were written in literary styles that are related to Jewish and Greek styles of the time.

Our icons started copying the techniques and styles of Greek and Roman paintings.

Satanists copy elements of the Liturgy to mock it.

For arts and crafts, it's not so much what you but how you do it and about what you do it.

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