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Author Topic: Is it necessary upon reception into the Orthodox Church to renounce the errors of Rome?  (Read 12350 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: June 28, 2011, 02:24:05 PM »

Elijahmaria is right. We do not believe that everyone who is saved must undergo Purgatory.
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« Reply #136 on: June 28, 2011, 02:47:09 PM »

Ok.

In reading those quotes, however, you assume that because it says the dead are suffering, this automatically means they will go to Heaven when it's done. Since the Orthodox believe free will can still function after death, this is not necessarily so. A soul who remains rebellious could pile on suffering infinitely, I would think.

In addition, the sources quoted lack the "quid pro quo" of Catholic notions of purgatory (A certain number of years for each sin and a certain number of years subtracted for each indulgence or meritorious work). I've seen nothing to make me think Orthodox suffering is so, to use what is perhaps an overused description, "judicial."
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« Reply #137 on: June 28, 2011, 03:40:51 PM »

And there's no indication that the suffering purifies the person's passions and they will eventually go to heaven, which I understand as the point of purgatory.

Suffering does not cause purification, but may be part of the process. It's kind of like a drug addict. Just because one suffers doesn't mean they are recovering from their addiction, but there is usually some suffering involved in recovering.


'Suffer the little children to come unto me.'

What does suffer mean? 

Again we are deep in that modern conviction that anything that hurts is evil and must be dispensed with immediately. 


That is a really irrelevant quote from the words of our Saviour.

Surely we all know that "suffer" here has an older meaning of the word which is "permit, allow."

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

I would have thought we would all have been aware of this meaning of "suffer"?

Yes.  That was my point.  The more ancient meaning of suffering is indulgence.
Huh
indulgence

mid-14c., "freeing from temporal punishment for sin," from L. indulgentia  "complaisance, fondness, remission," from indulgentem  (nom. indulgens ), prp. of indulgere  "be kind, yield," of unknown origin. Sense of "gratification of another's desire or humor" is attested from late 14c. That of "yielding to one's inclinations" (technically self-indulgence ) is from 1640s. In British history, Indulgence  also refers to grants of certain liberties to Nonconformists under Charles II and James II, as special favors rather than legal rights; specifically the Declarations of Indulgence  of 1672, 1687, and 1688 in England and 1669, 1672, and 1687 in Scotland.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indulgence

suffer

early 13c., "to undergo, endure" (pain, death, punishment, judgment, grief), from Anglo-Fr. suffrir , from O.Fr. sufrir , from V.L. *sufferire , variant of L. sufferre  "to bear, undergo, endure, carry or put under," from sub  "up, under" + ferre  "to carry" (see infer). Replaced O.E. þolian, þrowian . Meaning "to tolerate, allow" is recorded from late 13c.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suffering
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« Reply #138 on: June 28, 2011, 03:53:01 PM »

Quote
indulgence

mid-14c., "freeing from temporal punishment for sin," from L. indulgentia  "complaisance, fondness, remission," from indulgentem  (nom. indulgens ), prp. of indulgere  "be kind, yield," of unknown origin.
suffer

early 13c., "to undergo, endure"... Meaning "to tolerate, allow" is recorded from late 13c.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suffering

These are the meanings involved in a Catholic understanding of suffering as a means of purification and setting things right with the world.  That is the teaching of purgatory.  If you don't understand the language of piety and pastoral work and theology as it is employed by the Catholic Church over the centuries then you are bound to get things quite neatly confused, be it with malice or in ignorance.
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« Reply #139 on: June 28, 2011, 04:03:03 PM »

If everyone who will be saved must suffer purgatory then what about those who are alive to be transformed "instantly" at the Second Coming. Must be nice to get a free ride like that.

I don't know, but I'm not aware of anything that says that the "changing in the twinkling of an eye" was necessarily painless or not either way.

A question for Catholics - does the use of time for measuring purification refer to a literal time span, or is it just a unit of measurement for how much needs to be accomplished?
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« Reply #140 on: June 28, 2011, 04:10:34 PM »

Quote
indulgence

mid-14c., "freeing from temporal punishment for sin," from L. indulgentia  "complaisance, fondness, remission," from indulgentem  (nom. indulgens ), prp. of indulgere  "be kind, yield," of unknown origin.
suffer

early 13c., "to undergo, endure"... Meaning "to tolerate, allow" is recorded from late 13c.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suffering

These are the meanings involved in a Catholic understanding of suffering as a means of purification and setting things right with the world.  That is the teaching of purgatory.  If you don't understand the language of piety and pastoral work and theology as it is employed by the Catholic Church over the centuries then you are bound to get things quite neatly confused, be it with malice or in ignorance.

This seems to be the case among at least some of your faithful, and not just the uneducated. I once heard someone call a Catholic radio show and ask about someone they knew who died of cancer, and the host replied that the individual's time in purgatory would be eihter shortened or not needed because of how painful their death was. This seems to imply that all suffering has the affect of purifying someone, and that is just not the case, there are many people who turn themselves against God because of something God "did to them" or someone they know.
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« Reply #141 on: June 28, 2011, 04:15:17 PM »

This seems to imply that all suffering has the affect of purifying someone, and that is just not the case, there are many people who turn themselves against God because of something God "did to them" or someone they know.
So, would you say that some in Hell would take this mindset?
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« Reply #142 on: June 28, 2011, 04:16:44 PM »

Quote
indulgence

mid-14c., "freeing from temporal punishment for sin," from L. indulgentia  "complaisance, fondness, remission," from indulgentem  (nom. indulgens ), prp. of indulgere  "be kind, yield," of unknown origin.
suffer

early 13c., "to undergo, endure"... Meaning "to tolerate, allow" is recorded from late 13c.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suffering

These are the meanings involved in a Catholic understanding of suffering as a means of purification and setting things right with the world.  That is the teaching of purgatory.  If you don't understand the language of piety and pastoral work and theology as it is employed by the Catholic Church over the centuries then you are bound to get things quite neatly confused, be it with malice or in ignorance.
Here I thought the Vatican, like the Catholic Church in the West, spoke Latin, and in England used English.  Didn't know it invented its own language.  Something like Vaticanto?

You said "Yes.  That was my point.  The more ancient meaning of suffering is indulgence."  Since Vaticanto obvious borrowed both the terms indulgence and suffering from the pre-existing languages of Latin and English, you are quite neatly confused on their ancient meaning.

You started this tangent with confussion with the plain English of
"'Suffer the little children to come unto me.'"

What does suffer mean?  

Again we are deep in that modern conviction that anything that hurts is evil and must be dispensed with immediately.
While the last point can be argued true (though it's a ancient conviction), "What does suffer mean?" is answered for the verse from the dictionary, not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.
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« Reply #143 on: June 28, 2011, 04:22:03 PM »

If everyone who will be saved must suffer purgatory then what about those who are alive to be transformed "instantly" at the Second Coming. Must be nice to get a free ride like that.

I don't know, but I'm not aware of anything that says that the "changing in the twinkling of an eye" was necessarily painless or not either way.

A question for Catholics - does the use of time for measuring purification refer to a literal time span, or is it just a unit of measurement for how much needs to be accomplished?

It is pietistic and pastoral.
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« Reply #144 on: June 28, 2011, 04:22:52 PM »

This seems to imply that all suffering has the affect of purifying someone, and that is just not the case, there are many people who turn themselves against God because of something God "did to them" or someone they know.
So, would you say that some in Hell would take this mindset?
I've never been there and have no real desire to, so I can't say for certain, but this is certainly not impossible. I would say that if their suffering is eternal, then it's probably not having a very purifying affect on them.

But then again, as I said, I hope not to find out the experience of hell for certain.
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« Reply #145 on: June 28, 2011, 04:24:07 PM »

If everyone who will be saved must suffer purgatory then what about those who are alive to be transformed "instantly" at the Second Coming. Must be nice to get a free ride like that.

I don't know, but I'm not aware of anything that says that the "changing in the twinkling of an eye" was necessarily painless or not either way.

A question for Catholics - does the use of time for measuring purification refer to a literal time span, or is it just a unit of measurement for how much needs to be accomplished?

It is pietistic and pastoral.

That doesn't really tell me why time is used and what it is meant to express.
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« Reply #146 on: June 28, 2011, 04:24:21 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
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« Reply #147 on: June 28, 2011, 04:26:48 PM »

If everyone who will be saved must suffer purgatory then what about those who are alive to be transformed "instantly" at the Second Coming. Must be nice to get a free ride like that.

I don't know, but I'm not aware of anything that says that the "changing in the twinkling of an eye" was necessarily painless or not either way.

A question for Catholics - does the use of time for measuring purification refer to a literal time span, or is it just a unit of measurement for how much needs to be accomplished?

It is pietistic and pastoral.
Then why the "numbers game" of knocking of such and such an amount of time for saying so many Masses, etc. That's like the textbook definition of legalism.
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« Reply #148 on: June 28, 2011, 04:29:22 PM »

This seems to imply that all suffering has the affect of purifying someone, and that is just not the case, there are many people who turn themselves against God because of something God "did to them" or someone they know.
So, would you say that some in Hell would take this mindset?
I've never been there and have no real desire to, so I can't say for certain, but this is certainly not impossible. I would say that if their suffering is eternal, then it's probably not having a very purifying affect on them.

But then again, as I said, I hope not to find out the experience of hell for certain.
I suppose it makes more sense than either of the extremes, though (the Protestant view that no one in Hell repents and the Apokacastasis view that everyone will given enough time).
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« Reply #149 on: June 28, 2011, 04:30:01 PM »

If everyone who will be saved must suffer purgatory then what about those who are alive to be transformed "instantly" at the Second Coming. Must be nice to get a free ride like that.

I don't know, but I'm not aware of anything that says that the "changing in the twinkling of an eye" was necessarily painless or not either way.

A question for Catholics - does the use of time for measuring purification refer to a literal time span, or is it just a unit of measurement for how much needs to be accomplished?

It is pietistic and pastoral.

That doesn't really tell me why time is used and what it is meant to express.

Time is used because that is how ordinary people mark out the stages of their lives.  We tend to see everything in blocks of time spent doing this and that...

So when one speaks of what happens after death, it is not unusual to speak in terms that are commonly associated with stages of life on this side of the grave.

That is why I said it is pastoral.

It is pietistic because we can then think of our prayers and fasting and sacrifices and acts of mercy and alms-giving as means for making a difficult stage in the life of a loved one or the life of a brother or sister in Christ as brief as possible.

None of those specific pastoral elements of purgation and indulgence are doctrine or theology.  They are based in doctrine and theology but the expression is pietistic and pastoral.
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« Reply #150 on: June 28, 2011, 04:30:41 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
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« Reply #151 on: June 28, 2011, 04:33:19 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.

Makes it easy, I guess.  I can tell from your convert section here that you never have to explain anything... laugh...
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« Reply #152 on: June 28, 2011, 04:44:09 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.

Makes it easy, I guess.  I can tell from your convert section here that you never have to explain anything... laugh...
never what we mean by "suffering."
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« Reply #153 on: June 28, 2011, 04:56:28 PM »

Suffering is suffering, it's the purpose that is in question. Both sides seem to agree that the intent is rehabilitation but Orthodoxy unlike Catholicism holds it won't always work in light of people's free choice AFAICT.
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« Reply #154 on: June 28, 2011, 05:01:45 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.

Makes it easy, I guess.  I can tell from your convert section here that you never have to explain anything... laugh...
never what we mean by "suffering."

Lost opportunity, from my point of view.

But the fact remains that if you do not know what the papal Church means by her words then you have no right to insist on your own meanings.
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« Reply #155 on: June 28, 2011, 05:02:18 PM »

So according to the RC, are the following statements dogma?:

Purgatory is a "third place" neither Heaven nor Hell.

Purgatory is only for the saved.

Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.
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« Reply #156 on: June 28, 2011, 05:03:47 PM »

Suffering is suffering, it's the purpose that is in question. Both sides seem to agree that the intent is rehabilitation but Orthodoxy unlike Catholicism holds it won't always work in light of people's free choice AFAICT.

This is not at all representative of Catholic teachings or understandings.  You might know what you are talking about but it is meaningless to me in terms of Catholic teaching on purgation...for example..."the intent is rehabilitation"....that has no part in purgation.  There's more but I'll leave it at that.
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« Reply #157 on: June 28, 2011, 05:04:04 PM »


Lost opportunity, from my point of view.

Yours or the papal church's?
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« Reply #158 on: June 28, 2011, 05:10:25 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.

Makes it easy, I guess.  I can tell from your convert section here that you never have to explain anything... laugh...
never what we mean by "suffering."

Lost opportunity, from my point of view.

But the fact remains that if you do not know what the papal Church means by her words then you have no right to insist on your own meanings.
Not my meanings. Mr. Webster's.

I know quite well what the Vatican means by the words it uses, and the those it doesn't, and those in between those lines.

and, btw, Douay-Rheims used the words of others to translate the Gospel verse you tried to proof text from.
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« Reply #159 on: June 28, 2011, 05:13:03 PM »

Suffering is suffering, it's the purpose that is in question. Both sides seem to agree that the intent is rehabilitation but Orthodoxy unlike Catholicism holds it won't always work in light of people's free choice AFAICT.

This is not at all representative of Catholic teachings or understandings.  You might know what you are talking about but it is meaningless to me in terms of Catholic teaching on purgation...for example..."the intent is rehabilitation"....that has no part in purgation.  There's more but I'll leave it at that.
By intent, I mean, "reason it exists in the first place." God allows the dead to suffer for their own good, as opposed to making us all robots or something. I'm aware the suffering is essentially self-inflicted. I just don't think it will always result in ultimate repentance. Human psychology is more complex than that.
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« Reply #160 on: June 28, 2011, 05:15:11 PM »

So according to the RC, are the following statements dogma?:

Purgatory is a "third place" neither Heaven nor Hell.

Purgatory is only for the saved.

Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.

Not precisely, no.  Some of the points you list here are heresy.  But my point here initially is that teachings do not need to be dogmatized or defined in order to be true or real.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.

The first point is an assertion that may simplify for the ignorant but it does not illuminate or tell us anything about the state of being where we find ourselves after death.

The second point comes close to being papal Catholic teaching in that the Church does teach that the state of the soul is fixed at the time of death:  the "time of death" however is not defined.  Earthly "death" is ill-defined in any event, so it is often conjectured that there is room for change on either side of that mystical line between this life and the next, we just don't know anything about it really or how it works.  We have some ideas from the lives of the saints and those who have considered these questions, but in the main we pray for the dead.

Praying for the dead is the dogma...why?...because it has been revealed to us.
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« Reply #161 on: June 28, 2011, 05:16:24 PM »

Suffering is suffering, it's the purpose that is in question. Both sides seem to agree that the intent is rehabilitation but Orthodoxy unlike Catholicism holds it won't always work in light of people's free choice AFAICT.

This is not at all representative of Catholic teachings or understandings.  You might know what you are talking about but it is meaningless to me in terms of Catholic teaching on purgation...for example..."the intent is rehabilitation"....that has no part in purgation.  There's more but I'll leave it at that.
By intent, I mean, "reason it exists in the first place." God allows the dead to suffer for their own good, as opposed to making us all robots or something. I'm aware the suffering is essentially self-inflicted. I just don't think it will always result in ultimate repentance. Human psychology is more complex than that.

That is precisely why I raised the question of what is "suffering"...

Also my initial reaction was against the term "rehabilitation"...rehabilitation has no place in the underlying theology of purgation.
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« Reply #162 on: June 28, 2011, 05:32:53 PM »

If everyone who will be saved must suffer purgatory then what about those who are alive to be transformed "instantly" at the Second Coming. Must be nice to get a free ride like that.

I don't know, but I'm not aware of anything that says that the "changing in the twinkling of an eye" was necessarily painless or not either way.

A question for Catholics - does the use of time for measuring purification refer to a literal time span, or is it just a unit of measurement for how much needs to be accomplished?

I won't try to get into all the different answer to this question; but one answer is that it's a matter of theologumenon, and therefore should not be a problem.

This brings me to a question of my own, which I've had no success finding an answer to. I don't want to divert this thread by asking it again, but you can find it here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37225.msg590487.html#msg590487
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« Reply #163 on: June 28, 2011, 05:40:54 PM »

Suffering is suffering, it's the purpose that is in question. Both sides seem to agree that the intent is rehabilitation but Orthodoxy unlike Catholicism holds it won't always work in light of people's free choice AFAICT.

This is not at all representative of Catholic teachings or understandings.  You might know what you are talking about but it is meaningless to me in terms of Catholic teaching on purgation...for example..."the intent is rehabilitation"....that has no part in purgation.  There's more but I'll leave it at that.
By intent, I mean, "reason it exists in the first place." God allows the dead to suffer for their own good, as opposed to making us all robots or something. I'm aware the suffering is essentially self-inflicted. I just don't think it will always result in ultimate repentance. Human psychology is more complex than that.

That is precisely why I raised the question of what is "suffering"...

Also my initial reaction was against the term "rehabilitation"...rehabilitation has no place in the underlying theology of purgation.
You said the glory of God hurts. This raises two questions: Why does it hurt? Why does God let us see it then?

1. Because we are unrepentant.

2. Because God wants us to be moved to repentance.

Hence, rehabilitation.
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« Reply #164 on: June 28, 2011, 05:48:54 PM »

But my point here initially is that teachings do not need to be dogmatized or defined in order to be true or real.
True on paper, but if it's only a theolgumenon then the answer is, for all intents and purposes, unknowable to us.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.
Then what do you call buying a indulgence or saying a Mass for the dead? Sounds like works to me.

The first point is an assertion that may simplify for the ignorant but it does not illuminate or tell us anything about the state of being where we find ourselves after death.
Fair enough, I guess.

The second point comes close to being papal Catholic teaching in that the Church does teach that the state of the soul is fixed at the time of death:  the "time of death" however is not defined.  Earthly "death" is ill-defined in any event, so it is often conjectured that there is room for change on either side of that mystical line between this life and the next, we just don't know anything about it really or how it works.  We have some ideas from the lives of the saints and those who have considered these questions, but in the main we pray for the dead.

Praying for the dead is the dogma...why?...because it has been revealed to us.
Well, if that's the case then I guess the Orthodox and Catholic views are "close enough."
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« Reply #165 on: June 28, 2011, 05:55:40 PM »


Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.

Does the Apostle Peter speak heresy to the Roman Catholic Church?   This is what he proclaimed in 1967 through the august lips of Pope Paul VI.

"Following in the footsteps of Christ,[16] the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in His sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.[17] This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints..."

"This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by His grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."

etc., etc.

Apostolic Constitution
INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINE
His Holiness Pope Paul VI
Promulgated on January 1, 1967
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm
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« Reply #166 on: June 28, 2011, 05:57:45 PM »

Suffering is suffering, it's the purpose that is in question. Both sides seem to agree that the intent is rehabilitation but Orthodoxy unlike Catholicism holds it won't always work in light of people's free choice AFAICT.

This is not at all representative of Catholic teachings or understandings.  You might know what you are talking about but it is meaningless to me in terms of Catholic teaching on purgation...for example..."the intent is rehabilitation"....that has no part in purgation.  There's more but I'll leave it at that.
By intent, I mean, "reason it exists in the first place." God allows the dead to suffer for their own good, as opposed to making us all robots or something. I'm aware the suffering is essentially self-inflicted. I just don't think it will always result in ultimate repentance. Human psychology is more complex than that.

That is precisely why I raised the question of what is "suffering"...

Also my initial reaction was against the term "rehabilitation"...rehabilitation has no place in the underlying theology of purgation.
You said the glory of God hurts. This raises two questions: Why does it hurt? Why does God let us see it then?

1. Because we are unrepentant.

2. Because God wants us to be moved to repentance.

Hence, rehabilitation.

That is not what purgation is about for Catholics.  Not at all.  It is not meant to batter us into submission.  That is called an irresistible "grace"...which nullifies free will.
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« Reply #167 on: June 28, 2011, 06:00:51 PM »


Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.

Does the Apostle Peter speak heresy to the Roman Catholic Church?   This is what he proclaimed in 1967 through the august lips of Pope Paul VI.

"Following in the footsteps of Christ,[16] the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in His sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.[17] This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints..."

"This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by His grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."

etc., etc.

Apostolic Constitution
INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINE
His Holiness Pope Paul VI
Promulgated on January 1, 1967
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm


All of those "merits" are the merits of Jesus Christ which we participate in by grace and an act of the will.   That certainly was not mentioned in Volnutt's List.

Mary
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« Reply #168 on: June 28, 2011, 06:07:47 PM »


.  That is called an irresistible "grace"...which nullifies free will.

If free will cannot be exercised then grace is irristible.

We see this with babies and young children at Baptism and then the ongoing reception of the Eucharist.  They cannot "resist" the ocean of grace which is poured upon them.

We see it also in old age and dementia (as well as the mentally incapacitated) when the bountiful grace of Holy Communion and union with Christ is poured upon those who cannot resist it.
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« Reply #169 on: June 28, 2011, 06:11:57 PM »

The fact that it's all Jesus' merits is immaterial to the discussion, we still have to (apply, access, pick whatever term you like) them to the current situation by our will.

That is not what purgation is about for Catholics.  Not at all.  It is not meant to batter us into submission.  That is called an irresistible "grace"...which nullifies free will.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. What you call battering, I call letting us deal with the natural consequences of our sins until we learn to hate them and love God.
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« Reply #170 on: June 28, 2011, 06:16:26 PM »

The fact that it's all Jesus' merits is immaterial to the discussion, we still have to (apply, access, pick whatever term you like) them to the current situation by our will.

That is not what purgation is about for Catholics.  Not at all.  It is not meant to batter us into submission.  That is called an irresistible "grace"...which nullifies free will.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. What you call battering, I call letting us deal with the natural consequences of our sins until we learn to hate them and love God.

Read the gospel story of Lazarus the Beggar and Dives.  After death is a little late.  That is revealed to us.  I would prefer to give a gospel story precedence over someone like Father Ambrose who has a "distaste" for never being able to say he's sorry...after he's already in the soup!!...so to speak.
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« Reply #171 on: June 28, 2011, 06:16:57 PM »


Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.

Does the Apostle Peter speak heresy to the Roman Catholic Church?   This is what he proclaimed in 1967 through the august lips of Pope Paul VI.

"Following in the footsteps of Christ,[16] the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in His sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.[17] This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints..."

"This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by His grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."

etc., etc.

Apostolic Constitution
INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINE
His Holiness Pope Paul VI
Promulgated on January 1, 1967
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm


All of those "merits" are the merits of Jesus Christ which we participate in by grace and an act of the will.   That certainly was not mentioned in Volnutt's List.

Mary

Blimey!  The merits available for the Pope to reassign to the holy souls in Purgatory are not only the merits of Christ on the Cross but all the supererogatory merits of all the Saints.

And of course he may also disburse these merits to those alive on earth, using the same system of indulgences.
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« Reply #172 on: June 28, 2011, 06:19:13 PM »


.  That is called an irresistible "grace"...which nullifies free will.

If free will cannot be exercised then grace is irristible.

We see this with babies and young children at Baptism and then the ongoing reception of the Eucharist.  They cannot "resist" the ocean of grace which is poured upon them.

We see it also in old age and dementia (as well as the mentally incapacitated) when the bountiful grace of Holy Communion and union with Christ is poured upon those who cannot resist it.

That is what the communion of saints is for.  Baptismal grace for infants is not irresistible...It is mediated!!

Did we ask Jesus to redeem us?...Hell no!!  Those graces are mediated.

We still at some point need to give our assent...preferably before we breathe our last. 

For those who are incapacitated...there is a different story.
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« Reply #173 on: June 28, 2011, 06:20:43 PM »


Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.

Does the Apostle Peter speak heresy to the Roman Catholic Church?   This is what he proclaimed in 1967 through the august lips of Pope Paul VI.

"Following in the footsteps of Christ,[16] the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in His sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.[17] This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints..."

"This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by His grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."

etc., etc.

Apostolic Constitution
INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINE
His Holiness Pope Paul VI
Promulgated on January 1, 1967
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm


All of those "merits" are the merits of Jesus Christ which we participate in by grace and an act of the will.   That certainly was not mentioned in Volnutt's List.

Mary

Blimey!  The merits available for the Pope to reassign to the holy souls in Purgatory are not only the merits of Christ on the Cross but all the supererogatory merits of all the Saints.

And of course he may also disburse these merits to those alive on earth, using the same system of indulgences.

There are NO merits but the merits of Jesus.  Period.  Doctrine.  Catholic Doctrine...

Blimey!...I thought you were Catholic once.  Didn't get too far I think.
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« Reply #174 on: June 28, 2011, 06:23:17 PM »

The fact that it's all Jesus' merits is immaterial to the discussion, we still have to (apply, access, pick whatever term you like) them to the current situation by our will.

That is not what purgation is about for Catholics.  Not at all.  It is not meant to batter us into submission.  That is called an irresistible "grace"...which nullifies free will.
Six of one, half dozen of the other. What you call battering, I call letting us deal with the natural consequences of our sins until we learn to hate them and love God.

Read the gospel story of Lazarus the Beggar and Dives.  After death is a little late.  That is revealed to us.  I would prefer to give a gospel story precedence over someone like Father Ambrose who has a "distaste" for never being able to say he's sorry...after he's already in the soup!!...so to speak.
Well if that's the case, then "Purgatory" is essentially deathbed repentance. You're in Protestant-country now.
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« Reply #175 on: June 28, 2011, 06:27:33 PM »


Read the gospel story of Lazarus the Beggar and Dives.  After death is a little late.  That is revealed to us.  I would prefer to give a gospel story precedence over someone like Father Ambrose who has a "distaste" for never being able to say he's sorry...after he's already in the soup!!...so to speak.


Sorry!  Christ speaks of the sin which may not be forgiven after death, which we take as meaning that other sins may.  Your own Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks of sins being forgiven after death.

All sins, even the worst, apart from the sin against the Holy Spirit, may be forgiven after death.  This is the teaching of sacred Scripture.

The history of Judas Maccabeus is an important one in this matter.   It proves that the West is wrong when it believes that grave sin, mortal sin, cannot be forgiven after death.  The text of Maccabees demonstrates that it can. 

To give some context to the incident in Maccabees... What had happened was that many of the dead Jewish soldiers were found to have small idols in their clothing.  They had been worshipping idols, seeking their protection in warfare,  and the text says that this idolatry is the reason God allowed them to be slain in battle.

So the surviving soldiers began to offer profound prayers that this dreadful sin would be forgiven and Judas Maccabeus decided to send a large quantity of silver to the Jerusalem temple for prayers for the forgiveness of these idolaters.

The whole incident substantiates not just prayers for the dead but the Orthodox hope and belief that sin, very serious sin (mortal sin if you will), may be forgiven by God after death.

This remains the tradition among the Orthodox.


2 Macc 12: 39-46
King James Version
http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Kjv2Mac.html


 And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves.  Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.  All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain. And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:  For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

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« Reply #176 on: June 28, 2011, 06:32:47 PM »


Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.

Does the Apostle Peter speak heresy to the Roman Catholic Church?   This is what he proclaimed in 1967 through the august lips of Pope Paul VI.

"Following in the footsteps of Christ,[16] the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in His sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.[17] This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints..."

"This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by His grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."

etc., etc.

Apostolic Constitution
INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINE
His Holiness Pope Paul VI
Promulgated on January 1, 1967
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm


All of those "merits" are the merits of Jesus Christ which we participate in by grace and an act of the will.   That certainly was not mentioned in Volnutt's List.

Mary

Blimey!  The merits available for the Pope to reassign to the holy souls in Purgatory are not only the merits of Christ on the Cross but all the supererogatory merits of all the Saints.

And of course he may also disburse these merits to those alive on earth, using the same system of indulgences.

There are NO merits but the merits of Jesus.  Period.  Doctrine.  Catholic Doctrine...

Blimey!...I thought you were Catholic once.  Didn't get too far I think.
Father is Catholic, once he got far away from the Vatican, which teaches "merits of the saints" (in fact, the Divine Liturgy of WRO have to delete the references to that from the Vatican version).
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« Reply #177 on: June 28, 2011, 06:33:39 PM »


Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.

Does the Apostle Peter speak heresy to the Roman Catholic Church?   This is what he proclaimed in 1967 through the august lips of Pope Paul VI.

"Following in the footsteps of Christ,[16] the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in His sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.[17] This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints..."

"This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by His grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."

etc., etc.

Apostolic Constitution
INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINE
His Holiness Pope Paul VI
Promulgated on January 1, 1967
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm


All of those "merits" are the merits of Jesus Christ which we participate in by grace and an act of the will.   That certainly was not mentioned in Volnutt's List.

Mary

Blimey!  The merits available for the Pope to reassign to the holy souls in Purgatory are not only the merits of Christ on the Cross but all the supererogatory merits of all the Saints.

And of course he may also disburse these merits to those alive on earth, using the same system of indulgences.

There are NO merits but the merits of Jesus.  Period.  Doctrine.  Catholic Doctrine...

Blimey!...I thought you were Catholic once.  Didn't get too far I think.


Pshaw!  I suggest you study the teaching on the "supererogatory works" and "superfluous merits" of the Saints.

Never too late to learn something. laugh
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« Reply #178 on: June 28, 2011, 06:48:13 PM »


Suffering in Purgatory is lessened in direct proportion to meritorious works done here on behalf of the sufferers.

The last point you offer is in fact the heresy of works so it is not Catholic teaching in any event.

Does the Apostle Peter speak heresy to the Roman Catholic Church?   This is what he proclaimed in 1967 through the august lips of Pope Paul VI.

"Following in the footsteps of Christ,[16] the Christian faithful have always endeavored to help one another on the path leading to the heavenly Father through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of charity, the more they have imitated Christ in His sufferings, carrying their crosses in expiation for their own sins and those of others, certain that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God the Father of mercies.[17] This is the very ancient dogma of the Communion of the Saints..."

"This treasury also includes the truly immense, unfathomable and ever pristine value before God of the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary and all the saints, who following in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by His grace have sanctified their lives and fulfilled the mission entrusted to them by the Father. Thus while attaining their own salvation, they have also cooperated in the salvation of their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."

etc., etc.

Apostolic Constitution
INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINE
His Holiness Pope Paul VI
Promulgated on January 1, 1967
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm

Forgive me for butting in, but can someone provide me with a reference for the heresy assertion?
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« Reply #179 on: June 28, 2011, 06:59:19 PM »

not the misty "language of piety" you take refuge in.

I know...you want all that misty mystery for Orthodoxy...but you can't have it all, I fear.
We Orthodox say what we mean and mean what we say.
So what's your stance on birth control?
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