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Author Topic: Bishop MARK to leave for OCA  (Read 9490 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2010, 09:41:40 AM »

This whole thing makes me physically ill.  I cried when I heard.  Bishop MARK is my bishop and my husband and I know him as he has come to our parish quite frequently.  The laity know the truth.  We're worried and we don't understand this constant nonsense and changing and retractions of things.  There is even an interview where someone shows himself.  It's an underhanded and deceitful mess.  By their fruits you will know them.  There ARE no other jurisdictions some of us can go to because in some places there are no other Orthodox Churches.  That is not an option for some of us.  We do not want Bishop DEMETRI back.  There will be no doubt then of how horrid things are if that were to occur.  Pray it doesn't.  With the way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised.  We have a strong parish that has a lot going on.  Please pray for us all.  We definitely need it.



I have briefly heard of the situation with Bishop MARK and his dealings with some of the people in his diocese that caused this whole mess to happen but I'm still a little confused. Could you possibly expand on what happened or direct me somewhere where I can read what happened because I'm having trouble finding info regarding it? And what did you mean when you said, "There is even an interview where someone shows himself."? What interview are you referring too? Anyways I'll definitely be praying for our archdiocese and for Bishop MARK. God bless him!

From what I gather, some of the clergy in the Detroit area feel Bishop Mark is too academic in his faith and does not respect their culture and customs. For example, he would remind people to kiss his hand when meeting him; he would force parishes to serve Saturday Vespers and asked them to serve daily Matins and Vespers if possible; he enforced financial accountability by requiring parish audits (an order that was quickly nullified by +Philip).

In short, he was fighting institutionalized laziness and that ruffled a lot of feathers. He committed the crime of believing he was a diocesan bishop, when he apparently was not (even though he was).
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« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2010, 09:47:55 AM »

From what I gather, some of the clergy in the Detroit area feel Bishop Mark is too academic in his faith and does not respect their culture and customs. For example, he would remind people to kiss his hand when meeting him; he would force parishes to serve Saturday Vespers and asked them to serve daily Matins and Vespers if possible; he enforced financial accountability by requiring parish audits (an order that was quickly nullified by +Philip).

In short, he was fighting institutionalized laziness and that ruffled a lot of feathers. He committed the crime of believing he was a diocesan bishop, when he apparently was not (even though he was).

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« Reply #92 on: October 29, 2010, 11:26:31 AM »

I wonder how much the hierarchy really cares about the Great Commission?

Only to the extent that the people themselves care about it.
True but we are told to obey hierarchy & what are they doing to equip the laity to participate?

Couple of gentle caveats, if you don't mind.

1. There are limits to obeying anyone, except for God of course. I was in the military for 26 years, 10 of which was in the enlisted ranks, and we would never obey an illegal order (in fact we were required to disobey) and I would also never obey an immoral order (because of my religious beliefs).

2. In today's military (even the Marine Corps), everybody is expected to be a situational leader. Junior officers and senior NCOs had long been--illustrated by a famous quip by a Soviet general officer that, although they had stolen most US war plans, the effort was useless as Americans always improvised after the war started. In the Soviet Army, the problem was that if a senior officer was not there, nothing would happen. So, we do not need to be like that, we can be like the American Armed Forces--educated, trained, briefed on the mission and enabled to lead when necessary. Please note that the American military is clearly "hierarchical" but it has freed itself from despotic rule. Non-despotic does not necessarily mean democratic.
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« Reply #93 on: October 29, 2010, 12:04:24 PM »

I wonder how much the hierarchy really cares about the Great Commission?

Only to the extent that the people themselves care about it.
True but we are told to obey hierarchy & what are they doing to equip the laity to participate?

Couple of gentle caveats, if you don't mind.

1. There are limits to obeying anyone, except for God of course. I was in the military for 26 years, 10 of which was in the enlisted ranks, and we would never obey an illegal order (in fact we were required to disobey) and I would also never obey an immoral order (because of my religious beliefs).

2. In today's military (even the Marine Corps), everybody is expected to be a situational leader. Junior officers and senior NCOs had long been--illustrated by a famous quip by a Soviet general officer that, although they had stolen most US war plans, the effort was useless as Americans always improvised after the war started. In the Soviet Army, the problem was that if a senior officer was not there, nothing would happen. So, we do not need to be like that, we can be like the American Armed Forces--educated, trained, briefed on the mission and enabled to lead when necessary. Please note that the American military is clearly "hierarchical" but it has freed itself from despotic rule. Non-despotic does not necessarily mean democratic.

Dear Chance,

These are excellent distinctions that you make here. 

In dealing with my spiritual father it is always difficult to grasp the full meaning of offering obedience in all things but sin.   It is not an easy thing in any event since one must ask then, who determines what is or is not sin, in those cases where it is not patently clear. 

It is also something of a podvig to have to follow when Father's humanity over-rules his humility.  The desert fathers are quite clear about following even a poor spiritual father unto death if necessary for in that extreme obedience [humility], we stand the chance of saving two souls, rather than one.

The discussion that ensues with these ideas is worth a subject heading of its own.

Thank you so much for raising the issues, because I will tell you true that I find it disturbing, sometimes ammusing, to listen to Orthodox believers, who claim the heritage of the fathers, so eager to take these decisions upon themselves and over-rule legitimate authority....And one then must distinguish between the use and abuse of authority,  and its inherent legitimacy.  But I am very disappointed by Orthodox faithful who pride themselves on their ability to do better, rather than on their ability to do with greater humility.

Mary
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« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2010, 02:43:56 PM »

I wonder how much the hierarchy really cares about the Great Commission?

Only to the extent that the people themselves care about it.
True but we are told to obey hierarchy & what are they doing to equip the laity to participate?

Couple of gentle caveats, if you don't mind.

1. There are limits to obeying anyone, except for God of course. I was in the military for 26 years, 10 of which was in the enlisted ranks, and we would never obey an illegal order (in fact we were required to disobey) and I would also never obey an immoral order (because of my religious beliefs).

2. In today's military (even the Marine Corps), everybody is expected to be a situational leader. Junior officers and senior NCOs had long been--illustrated by a famous quip by a Soviet general officer that, although they had stolen most US war plans, the effort was useless as Americans always improvised after the war started. In the Soviet Army, the problem was that if a senior officer was not there, nothing would happen. So, we do not need to be like that, we can be like the American Armed Forces--educated, trained, briefed on the mission and enabled to lead when necessary. Please note that the American military is clearly "hierarchical" but it has freed itself from despotic rule. Non-despotic does not necessarily mean democratic.

Dear Chance,

These are excellent distinctions that you make here. 

In dealing with my spiritual father it is always difficult to grasp the full meaning of offering obedience in all things but sin.   It is not an easy thing in any event since one must ask then, who determines what is or is not sin, in those cases where it is not patently clear. 

It is also something of a podvig to have to follow when Father's humanity over-rules his humility.  The desert fathers are quite clear about following even a poor spiritual father unto death if necessary for in that extreme obedience [humility], we stand the chance of saving two souls, rather than one.

The discussion that ensues with these ideas is worth a subject heading of its own.

Thank you so much for raising the issues, because I will tell you true that I find it disturbing, sometimes ammusing, to listen to Orthodox believers, who claim the heritage of the fathers, so eager to take these decisions upon themselves and over-rule legitimate authority....And one then must distinguish between the use and abuse of authority,  and its inherent legitimacy.  But I am very disappointed by Orthodox faithful who pride themselves on their ability to do better, rather than on their ability to do with greater humility.

Mary

Dear Mary--I do not think that we can address authority and humility without also addressing responsibility. Somehow, the charisma (authority) that our clergy receive upon ordination has been held to be the only authority conferred by the Lord in the Laos. However, all of us upon our baptism also receive some charisma as members of the royal priesthood. What exactly that means has been a hot issue in the West and generally ignored in the East. I find it remarkable that Luther himself did not understand the priesthood of believers to mean obviating the need to set aside some of the Laos as deacons, priests and bishops. In addition, we do have ample evidence that, in addition to those in the holy orders, the Holy Spirit will gift many with several ministries. What am I driving at? I maintain that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches must expect lay folks to accept responsibilities as gifted by the Spirit and in accordance to their God-given talents. We need to foster a team approach, where servant-leadership must be the norm if it is to work properly. And, that is where humility comes in. In this area, we particularly need our ordained leaders to have the humility (and wisdom) to realize that they may have to acknowledge that they may not be best person to lead a particular project. That said, there is no question that our bishops and priests have the charisma to be our spiritual fathers. However, at least in the Orthodox tradition, we have the experience of lay folks (mainly monks) also acting as spiritual fathers, while the ordained clergy perform the sacerdotal functions. To wrap up, all of us are members of the Body and each of us has a role to play, which we are to do with diligence and humility as part of a parish team.
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« Reply #95 on: October 29, 2010, 03:02:17 PM »

Growing up in the faith and still being but a babe, I have come to a conclusion regarding absolute obedience in the Orthodox Church. Absolute obedience is a practice in asceticism usually followed mostly by monastics and in special cases non-monastics. We 'regular folk' on the other hand, are not asked to perform in such a manner other than being absolutely obedient to the Holy Spirit, which may or may not involve a Spirital Guide in every step of the way.

I find that my Spiritual Father won't even act or expect absolute obedience but communicates with me in such a way as if he is travelling with me, not pushing or pulling me in a direction. This is my view, is true authority and leadership. Trusting in the Lord enough to be the example, and being a part of the experience, and even holding you/lifting you up when need be.

This isn't to diminish the role of the Parish Priest or Bishop in any way. They do indeed lead the community.
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« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2010, 09:35:03 AM »

In this thread

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30399.0.html

One of the questions raised was what is the awareness "in the pews" of canonical legislation regarding local practices.  I will say my own personal knowledge of what is in the canons is extremely limited, as is my knowledge of what is happening in the Antiochian Archdiocese.  In the same vein of questioning in the thread mentioned above though, I have two questions:

- What is the awareness of what is happening in the Archdiocese at the ground level?  Do most lay people even have any idea what is going on?
- How many people actually understand whatever canonical implications there may be?
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« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2010, 10:34:06 AM »

In this thread

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30399.0.html

One of the questions raised was what is the awareness "in the pews" of canonical legislation regarding local practices.  I will say my own personal knowledge of what is in the canons is extremely limited, as is my knowledge of what is happening in the Antiochian Archdiocese.  In the same vein of questioning in the thread mentioned above though, I have two questions:

- What is the awareness of what is happening in the Archdiocese at the ground level?  Do most lay people even have any idea what is going on?
- How many people actually understand whatever canonical implications there may be?

For me, it's above my head. Are we heading towards Vatican II? Or are we already there?
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« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2010, 11:05:38 AM »

Lichnidos raises a valid question.

I was talking to a friend about all this (before +Mark was ousted, but when there were rumblings). Despite the ecclesiological mess in America, there are really no liturgical abuses going on. No "Halloween Liturgies" with priests dressed as devils; no priestesses, deaconesses, or female altar servers; no priests serving the liturgy ad populum; no icons, altars, or relics in dumpsters.

This is not to pile on the RCC, but to show that things could be far, far worse, and have gotten far worse in other confessions. Most of our angst is limited to shenanigans among the bishops, the likes of which may have been going on for centuries and we simply never heard about it because communications were different.

I think if there is any problem, it's that +Philip misled us (intentionally or not, I don't know) about what "self-rule" meant. If, in the Church of Antioch, Metropolitans are the only ones with any power (which I gather is the case), that should have been made clear to everyone upfront. They should not have misled us (and the bishops!); they should have said all simple bishops are auxiliaries and only Metropolitans have real power.

I personally think this ecclesiology is messed up, but +Philip clearly sees it as normative, judging from the interview on AFR and his thrashing of the OCA and GOA ecclesiological models. I think a bishop is a bishop is a bishop, but apparently in the Church of Antioch things are a bit more complicated than that.
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« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2010, 11:32:40 AM »


This is not to pile on the RCC, but to show that things could be far, far worse, and have gotten far worse in other confessions. Most of our angst is limited to shenanigans among the bishops, the likes of which may have been going on for centuries and we simply never heard about it because communications were different.


Indeed.  I was just listening to Fr. Hopko on AFR (in his series on Darwin) talk about how St. Gregory the Theologian lambasted the bishops of his day.  This is really nothing new.
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« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2010, 11:33:20 AM »

In this thread

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30399.0.html

One of the questions raised was what is the awareness "in the pews" of canonical legislation regarding local practices.  I will say my own personal knowledge of what is in the canons is extremely limited, as is my knowledge of what is happening in the Antiochian Archdiocese.  In the same vein of questioning in the thread mentioned above though, I have two questions:

- What is the awareness of what is happening in the Archdiocese at the ground level?  Do most lay people even have any idea what is going on?
- How many people actually understand whatever canonical implications there may be?

A lot. The ban on commemoration of the bishop brings it home real quickly. The rest of the points are going to make that more so as they are implemented-or attempted to be implimented.
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« Reply #101 on: November 01, 2010, 01:35:58 PM »

The official announcement. Bishop Thomas appointed locum tenens of the Diocese of the Midwest.


Link

Ah, an auxiliary bishop serving as a locum tenens....of a diocese....which doesn't really exist....ok...

(I'm honestly confused and not trying to have a mocking tone).

It is hard to escape the impression of a mocking tone when the subject matter is so mockable. Plus, the pretense of a Synod. Mockable and disgusting.

ADDED: And, did y'all notice (a) reasons of health and (b) I expect full participation (in the Parish Life Conference)? I remember a Soviet era joke when somebody was removed/reassigned for health reasons, the rejoinder was "may his memory be eternal." As for the "expectations," the good Metropolitan has made it clear that his expectations are to be obeyed or heads will roll.
I did notice it and have heard that Bishop Mark has something which causes him to become depressed in certain climates.
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« Reply #102 on: November 01, 2010, 01:57:41 PM »

There was a new story about it today at the Toledo Blade. I hope I am not duplicating anything.

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« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2010, 12:46:29 PM »

Ok, implement Chambesy and the EA and make the USA an Autonomous church under the EP and get over it.  Unified and one, one set of rules, one set of governance, one set of bishops all belonging to the same lesser and greater synod.  one set of clerical rules, how to run a parish rules, one set of everything.  One voice, one church, one common good working together.  

Why do this? We can all go under the other Pope instead.

Is it the prospect of unity or foreign hierarchs that elicit this reaction? Either way, the comparison is ridiculous.

Yes and it was done just for that purpose. I was reacting to what I had thought a sarcastic post by username, which if you will notice is quite ridiculous. I would expect to hear "one voice, one church" or something similar from a Nazi, a Roman Catholic pope, a tin pot Middle Eastern despot but not an Orthodox anything.

NOTE: Edited slightly for typos and changed "I would accept" to "I would expect."

 this is an interesting characterization of autocephaly and belief in one holy, catholic and apostolic church
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« Reply #104 on: November 02, 2010, 01:47:09 PM »

It's been reported and confirmed in comments on ocanews.org that Met. Philip has removed and kicked out of the archdiocese the priest in the Terre Haute parish for violating the dress code, i.e. wearing a cassock off of church property. Other clergy changes are in the works.
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« Reply #105 on: November 02, 2010, 01:57:51 PM »

It's been reported and confirmed in comments on ocanews.org that Met. Philip has removed and kicked out of the archdiocese the priest in the Terre Haute parish for violating the dress code, i.e. wearing a cassock off of church property. Other clergy changes are in the works.

Is there a link please?
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« Reply #106 on: November 02, 2010, 02:01:47 PM »

It's been reported and confirmed in comments on ocanews.org that Met. Philip has removed and kicked out of the archdiocese the priest in the Terre Haute parish for violating the dress code, i.e. wearing a cassock off of church property. Other clergy changes are in the works.

Is there a link please?

http://ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?/archives/565-Toledo-Blade-Story.html#c115337
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« Reply #107 on: November 02, 2010, 02:14:04 PM »

It's been reported and confirmed in comments on ocanews.org that Met. Philip has removed and kicked out of the archdiocese the priest in the Terre Haute parish for violating the dress code, i.e. wearing a cassock off of church property. Other clergy changes are in the works.

Is there a link please?

http://ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?/archives/565-Toledo-Blade-Story.html#c115337


Thanks!
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« Reply #108 on: November 02, 2010, 02:20:43 PM »

It's been reported and confirmed in comments on ocanews.org that Met. Philip has removed and kicked out of the archdiocese the priest in the Terre Haute parish for violating the dress code, i.e. wearing a cassock off of church property. Other clergy changes are in the works.

Is there a link please?

http://ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?/archives/565-Toledo-Blade-Story.html#c115337

what is the deal with that website? background? affiliation? i'm assuming it's run by "concerned" laity? there is an awful lot of ad hominem and editorializing from the little bit i've read ("ecclesial terrorism'). maybe they are "in the right", i'm just curious as to the reputation and knowing whether that is a worthwhile site to visit for legit news.
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« Reply #109 on: November 02, 2010, 02:26:17 PM »

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« Reply #110 on: November 02, 2010, 02:30:59 PM »

what is the deal with that website? background? affiliation? i'm assuming it's run by "concerned" laity? there is an awful lot of ad hominem and editorializing from the little bit i've read ("ecclesial terrorism'). maybe they are "in the right", i'm just curious as to the reputation and knowing whether that is a worthwhile site to visit for legit news.

That is the comment section (not the page with news articles or edited opinion pieces), so the rhetoric gets heated. However, the editor confirmed the basic allegation in the comment, so I would say the facts are quite likely to be accurate. The editor is a layman in the OCA, member of the OCA Metropolitan Council, and has run that website for many years, reporting on Orthodox news, mainly as relates to the OCA but sometimes about the Antiochians.
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« Reply #111 on: November 02, 2010, 04:03:05 PM »

It's been reported and confirmed in comments on ocanews.org that Met. Philip has removed and kicked out of the archdiocese the priest in the Terre Haute parish for violating the dress code, i.e. wearing a cassock off of church property. Other clergy changes are in the works.

I love Father David!  That was the official reason.  He stopped wearing it when told the first time.  He wrote a letter to +PHILIP in support of +MARK.  This is very distressing.  I think I shall write a letter to +PHILIP in support of Bishop MARK, Fr. David and the priest being punished by being moved to Terre Haute.  As laity, I can't be silenced in the same way.  I'll also tell him why I won't be going to parish life conferences and why my money won't be going to Englewood.  My money will be missed even if I won't. 

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« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2010, 04:13:46 PM »

It's been reported and confirmed in comments on ocanews.org that Met. Philip has removed and kicked out of the archdiocese the priest in the Terre Haute parish for violating the dress code, i.e. wearing a cassock off of church property. Other clergy changes are in the works.

Is there a link please?

http://ocanews.org/serendipity/index.php?/archives/565-Toledo-Blade-Story.html#c115337
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« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2010, 04:51:25 PM »

Gospodi pomilui!
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« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2010, 05:29:39 PM »

Gospodi pomilui!

Amin.
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« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2010, 05:45:24 PM »

So, let's see where the pope does similar things  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2010, 10:31:26 PM »

So, let's see where the pope does similar things  Roll Eyes

I don't think he could get away with what's being described in this thread.  Ironic isn't it.
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« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2010, 10:40:19 PM »

So, let's see where the pope does similar things  Roll Eyes
I don't think he could get away with what's being described in this thread. 

You'd never know if he did.
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« Reply #118 on: November 02, 2010, 11:03:09 PM »

I make it my business not to know what goes on.  Being on the parish council once was too much for me.
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« Reply #119 on: November 03, 2010, 09:17:31 AM »

I guess since change should be inevitable from this so called "diaspora" in America, much of it would rather self destruct than even conform to natural law of successive generations. Now if mediocrity and ignorance can perpetuate the institution under some facade of a status quo then all is well and nice and apparently the expression of principles that an institution is supposed to espouse is allowable only to an extent that they help to generate revenue to maintain the stagnant status quo. If an actual expression of faith starts to evangelize and take priority over the maintenance of the club then it has perhaps overstepped its bounds within the meciocre status quo and needs to be curtailed.
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« Reply #120 on: November 03, 2010, 09:55:27 AM »

The priest and deacon at my parish commemorated Bishop Mark at Vespers, Matins, and Liturgy until after the letters from +Mark and +Philip were read before the sermon.

Already knowing the news, I thought it was a rebellion, but it was probably just an exercise of economia to not catch the people off-guard, as everyone—American converts and Arab cradles alike—in our parish loves Bishop Mark. When the letters were read, you could hear a small collective gasp.

Our priest offered no commentary at all, he simply said he had two letters and would read them in the order he received them. I really have no idea where my priest stands on all of this, though I suspect he's not happy about it.

+Mark's letter was not published on Antiochian.org, or anywhere else I've noticed. The "health reasons" he cited was Seasonal Affective Disorder, which indeed would have been terrible in the Pacific Northwest. He also made sure to drive home the term "diocesan bishops", in contrast to +Philip saying "auxiliary bishops".
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« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2010, 10:29:25 AM »

11.3.10

+Philip Removes Orthodox Priest For Wearing Cassock

On the day the Archdiocesan website officially published the Metropolitan Philip's October 22nd "Implementation" Order (read those 18 directives here or here), the Metropolitan dismissed Fr. David Moretti of Terre Haute IN from his parish, and the Archdiocese, ostensibly for disobedience, that is, wearing a traditional cassock rather than a clergy suit while in public. The letter announcing the Metropolitan's decision was short and direct:

Read more http://ocanews.org/news/PhilipDumpsPriestinCassock11.3.10.html
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« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2010, 01:24:58 PM »

The more I read, the more I do not like. I'm still clinging on to that glimmer of hope that this is some huge misunderstanding and that it is just good intensions being brought forth in an old school and broken way.
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« Reply #123 on: November 03, 2010, 01:41:51 PM »

I make it my business not to know what goes on.  Being on the parish council once was too much for me.

LOL.  At least you tried.
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« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2010, 01:42:19 PM »

+Philip Removes Orthodox Priest For Wearing Cassock

I'm glad he's not my bishop.
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« Reply #125 on: November 05, 2010, 12:09:48 PM »

Is the "auxiliary bishop" the valid cleric to sit in a bishop's chair if there is only 1 actual bishop now?
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« Reply #126 on: November 05, 2010, 01:34:38 PM »

+Philip Removes Orthodox Priest For Wearing Cassock

I'm glad he's not my bishop.

Yes, it reminds us not to take our own bishop for granted and to continue to appreciate him.     
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« Reply #127 on: November 05, 2010, 02:18:06 PM »


...we have wonderful bishops!   Wink   

We are truly blessed!

(We have great clergy, as well!)
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« Reply #128 on: November 05, 2010, 04:09:38 PM »

+Philip Removes Orthodox Priest For Wearing Cassock

I'm glad he's not my bishop.

Yes, it reminds us not to take our own bishop for granted and to continue to appreciate him.     


And to keep them in our daily prayers.  For if we don't pray for them daily, we share in their failure, by not supporting them through our prayers, after all we are a community of believers.
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« Reply #129 on: November 05, 2010, 04:20:18 PM »


Amen.

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« Reply #130 on: November 07, 2010, 11:23:18 PM »

@ Bogdan - My wife & I met Bishop +MARK once. He did not remind us to kiss his hand (to be honest, I cannot remember whether I did or not?)

Nor did I see many people kiss his hand at the church he was visiting at the time. This church was a very "ethnic" Arab Orthodox Church, and the folks I observed there had the utmost respect and love for the man. I'm not in the Antiochian Archdiocese, and so I'm very puzzled why and how all this has occured. All I know is that +MARK seemed like a very fine example of Christian humility.
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