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Author Topic: The Vatican supported nazi-fascism  (Read 4941 times) Average Rating: 0
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Stefanos
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« on: October 12, 2010, 01:32:35 PM »

The evidences
with the nazis









with the fascists

Pacelli and Mussolini



Mussolini and the blessed cardinal Schuster (Milan)


Monsignor Tiso, Slovak Dictator and nazi-puppet.





Ante Pavelic (the Hitler of Balkans) - Ustashi - NDH . The catholic Ustashi killed 1000000 Orthodox Serbs... and thousands of jews, roma and dissidents with the complicity of Vatican








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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2010, 01:35:07 PM »

Okay, but I'm sure someone can dig up similar pictures of Orthodox clergy in Romania from the same period.
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2010, 01:48:03 PM »

Okay, but I'm sure someone can dig up similar pictures of Orthodox clergy in Romania from the same period.

show me the pictures!
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2010, 02:01:57 PM »

Yes, some Catholics seem to have supported far-right ideologies some decades ago. So? And the point is?
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2010, 02:06:12 PM »

Evil nuns! Probably out to torture people, eh?

I wonder which side we would be in that situation... (as we, I mean we in the forum, not Orthodox in general).... saving our lives and those of whom we hold dear with a fake salute or with the martyrs.

How can we know that these RC clergy were not in the same situation of the Orthodox clergy during the Soviet regime, being colaborationists to preserve what they could of the Church? I think we don't need photos to know that, do we?

The XX century abounded with prefigurations of the Anti-Christ. Certainly there were people who were guilty of the meanest collaborionism, but also it's certain that some had no other choice, like pilots of a broken train in collision course.

Unfortunately, one of the driving forces behind this has been precisely the logic of because B is somehow a descedent of A, and A did some wrong to C, C's descedents D think they can put the blame on B. Basically "I blame you and demand you give me compensation for what someone that is not you did in the past to someone who was not me."

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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 02:14:50 PM »

Okay, but I'm sure someone can dig up similar pictures of Orthodox clergy in Romania from the same period.


Not to mention the photos of Orthodox clerics blessing troops and tanks during the Bosnian conflict in the 90's. The OP needs to grow up and stop embarrassing us.


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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2010, 02:16:23 PM »

Stefanos ! Good work ,well done..And Where Suppose to Unite with that Never....
The Catholic Clergy and there Religious turned their evil Inward and Attacking There Own , thur molestations,And Other
Preversions.....So it Actually never Stopped After World War 2 it Continnued in this time and place......

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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2010, 03:00:07 PM »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_%28history%29#The_Roman_ratlines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Hudal


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jul/21/catholicism.religion
Catholics and collusion in genocide. The Vatican is still thwarting trials of Rwandan clerics. It's inexcusable.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jul/16/rorycarroll
Church hides Rwandan priest in Tuscany

Catholic hierarchy in Italy helps war crimes suspect
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2010, 03:06:44 PM »

Evil nuns! Probably out to torture people, eh?

I wonder which side we would be in that situation... (as we, I mean we in the forum, not Orthodox in general).... saving our lives and those of whom we hold dear with a fake salute or with the martyrs.

How can we know that these RC clergy were not in the same situation of the Orthodox clergy during the Soviet regime, being colaborationists to preserve what they could of the Church? I think we don't need photos to know that, do we?

The XX century abounded with prefigurations of the Anti-Christ. Certainly there were people who were guilty of the meanest collaborionism, but also it's certain that some had no other choice, like pilots of a broken train in collision course.

Unfortunately, one of the driving forces behind this has been precisely the logic of because B is somehow a descedent of A, and A did some wrong to C, C's descedents D think they can put the blame on B. Basically "I blame you and demand you give me compensation for what someone that is not you did in the past to someone who was not me."



Why does the Vatican not fought Nazism and fascism when both were not in power? Why does not the clergy condemned the abortive coup d'etat of Hitler in 1923? Why does not the clergy condemned strongly the Nazi and fascist movements in the same way that communism, anarchism and abortion? Why the Vatican helped Nazi fugitives after the war?
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2010, 03:15:22 PM »

Yes, some Catholics seem to have supported far-right ideologies some decades ago. So? And the point is?

These Catholics were never excommunicated. Some of these Catholics (including priests) had committed crimes against humanity. A more recent case is that the priests member yet Rwandan genocide of 1994. The Vatican never punished them!
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 03:18:23 PM »

And some people talk about Radovan Karadzic like he's some kind of folk hero.
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2010, 03:21:41 PM »

And some people talk about Radovan Karadzic like he's some kind of folk hero.
And some people talk about Pavelic, Mussolini, Tiso, Franco, Pinochet, Pétain, Hitler etc. like they're some kind of hero.
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2010, 03:47:04 PM »

It seems the Jews had better views on the "nazi-fascist" RCs than you Stephanos:

Quote
The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."[17]

Other Jewish leaders chimed in also. Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, sent a note of thanks to the papal nuncio on April 7, 1944: "It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews. . . . The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."[18]

The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, also made a statement of thanks: "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. . . . Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."[19]

After the war, Zolli became a Catholic and, to honor the Pope for what he had done for the Jews and the role he had played in Zolli’s conversion, took the name "Eugenio"—the Pope’s given name—as his own baptismal name. Zolli stressed that his conversion was for theological reasons, which was certainly true, but the fact that the Pope had worked so hard on behalf of the Jews no doubt played a role in inspiring him to look at the truths of Christianity.

Lapide writes: "When Zolli accepted baptism in 1945 and adopted Pius’s Christian name of Eugene, most Roman Jews were convinced that his conversion was an act of gratitude for wartime succor to Jewish refugees and, repeated denials not withstanding, many are still of his opinion. Thus, Rabbi Barry Dov Schwartz wrote in the summer issue, 1964, of Conservative Judaism: ‘Many Jews were persuaded to convert after the war, as a sign of gratitude, to that institution which had saved their lives.’ "[20]
http://www.catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp


I know that horrible things happen and have happened in places where the RC Europe makes borders with Orthodox Europe. I doubt also that the Orthodox merely sit with no reaction, or even that they always *just* reacted and never "started it". It is a shame that Christians should engage in this sort of thing.

But you are wrong. You are wrong in trying to extend the blame of whatever Catholic people have done elsewhere to Catholics everywhere. Indians have canibalized white men in Brazil in the past. Their descedents have nothing to do with it. In fact, New World indians are the creators of the bad vice of smoking, which kill far more than all these wars. None of them today are responsible for the rates of lung cancer. The vast majority of the drug dealers come from slums in Brazil. That does not make the other 99% of the slum dwellers responsible.

Please, Stephanos, remember that "Satan" means accuser. Do not speak with an accuser's voice, for that is the energy of the enemy. Moral sense means attributing responsibility for those who have it. If a Catholic or an Orthodox commit a crime, they have to be judged for it. It's absurd to judge Joe Catholic for what Bill Catholic did.

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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2010, 04:05:44 PM »

There is no black & white issue here since the record shows that Romania (predominantly Orthodox) was an axis nation. I also remember reading a book "The Men Who Tried to Kill Hitler" by Manvell & Fraenkel re operation Valkyrie that there were contacts between anti Nazi Germans (the German intelligence Abwher I believe) & the Vatican but these contacts ceased or severely diminished when Mussolini handed Hitler the Vatican diplomatic code. Also remember that Catholic Poland was victim to countless Nazi atrocities. I do know that there was a rabid pro Nazi Catholic cleric named Tiso in Yugoslavia but clearly the evidence should show that the Vatican did not pursue any pro Nazi agenda. Count von Stauffenberg was a devout Roman Catholic & I would hope no one would question his commitment to trying to overthrow HItler.
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2010, 04:13:08 PM »

Rome Vatican Pope , Is still Trying Wipe out Holy Orthodoxy One way Or Another, It Hasn't Given up ,Just So it Can Be Absolute Supreme Satanic Majesty Number One...Statan Kills His Own As well ,Rowanda is  One Example...Catholics Killing Catholics......
And One Pope Did Declare The smoke of Satan Has Entered their Church....I say it Entered when the Schism Happend ,when they Left The Arch of Salvation Holy Orthodoxy.....
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2010, 04:26:09 PM »

What's this, the rise of Anti-Catholic Zombies? Cheesy


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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2010, 04:32:16 PM »

It's stashko's usual asinine rhetoric.

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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2010, 05:06:36 PM »



Ladies and gents,

Please refrain from even stepping near the ad hominem line.  The arguments for and against in this issue should be able to speak for themselves, as they are quite apparent.

Thank you.

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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2010, 05:59:34 PM »

And some people talk about Radovan Karadzic like he's some kind of folk hero.
And some people talk about Pavelic, Mussolini, Tiso, Franco, Pinochet, Pétain, Hitler etc. like they're some kind of hero.

Do you think enough is enough?  Have you no faith in what will happen on Judgment Day as you populate this forum with infectious rhetoric?   Huh
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2010, 06:02:10 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-I44rCeA2U
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2010, 06:02:41 PM »

And some people talk about Radovan Karadzic like he's some kind of folk hero.

Milosevic is dead; His former adviser, Chris Spirou, boasts about holding "Mass" at some "Haghia Sophia" somewhere in Turkey.   Roll Eyes

Karadzic was a tool.  He got played like everyone else.  The Serbs fell for the same trap the Greeks did after WW I in terms of "Great Ideas" and taking back land and territory from your enemies since the Serbs had longer lasting grudges against Muslims than the Greeks.
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2010, 08:45:06 PM »

On behalf of every Catholic who ever lived, I apologize.

However, I can't throw stones, since before receicing the Eucharist I must proclaim myself the "first among sinners".

Sorry!!!
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2010, 08:54:32 PM »

And some people talk about Radovan Karadzic like he's some kind of folk hero.

Milosevic is dead; His former adviser, Chris Spirou, boasts about holding "Mass" at some "Haghia Sophia" somewhere in Turkey.   Roll Eyes

Karadzic was a tool.  He got played like everyone else.  The Serbs fell for the same trap the Greeks did after WW I in terms of "Great Ideas" and taking back land and territory from your enemies since the Serbs had longer lasting grudges against Muslims than the Greeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_%28history%29#The_Roman_ratlines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Hudal
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2010, 09:18:18 PM »

Such hatred for the Romans here!  Such filth!  Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2010, 09:53:00 PM »

Such hatred for the Romans here!  Such filth!  Lord have mercy!


 Huh ???Confused Where is the Hate Mentioned Here, In these Posts above Roll Eyes..All i see is Facts that stefanos posted and it really really happened ,this can't be shelfed or ignored...I understand as a serb to forgive but never to Forget...Plus we Have to watch our Backs ,Vatican Pope says one thing but does another thing...........
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2010, 10:14:45 PM »

And some people talk about Radovan Karadzic like he's some kind of folk hero.

Milosevic is dead; His former adviser, Chris Spirou, boasts about holding "Mass" at some "Haghia Sophia" somewhere in Turkey.   Roll Eyes

Karadzic was a tool.  He got played like everyone else.  The Serbs fell for the same trap the Greeks did after WW I in terms of "Great Ideas" and taking back land and territory from your enemies since the Serbs had longer lasting grudges against Muslims than the Greeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_%28history%29#The_Roman_ratlines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Hudal

I don't get your point in posting material from Wikipedia and YouTube.  If you claim to be an Orthodox Christian, you would find a way to evict these judgments from your psyche until the Final Judgment where all of us, including those Roman Catholics and others (and ourselves) will be held accountable.  I have a hard time evicting my own judgments and they have nothing to do with Roman Catholics and Muslims (frankly, I'm not concerned about them, not one bit). 
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2010, 11:19:58 PM »

Huh ???Confused Where is the Hate Mentioned Here, In these Posts above Roll Eyes..All i see is Facts that stefanos posted and it really really happened ,this can't be shelfed or ignored...I understand as a serb to forgive but never to Forget...Plus we Have to watch our Backs ,Vatican Pope says one thing but does another thing...........


Facts are malleable my brother. They can change based on the perspective of the person observing them.  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2010, 11:22:14 PM »

Forget it, Jake - it's Chinatown. Grin
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2010, 07:08:39 AM »

why Serbs here don't wanna show what chetniks were doing during the WWII? I can post a list destroyed Catholic churches during the serbian occupation of North Dalatia and Lika (Severna Dalacija i Lika) by them so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina.

The worse is the people can see only this what others did not what they have done toward others. Operation Storm was kinda batterfly effect of balvan revolution. BTW - the serbian partiJots forgot that they heroes collaborate with Italian fascists
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2010, 07:17:07 AM »

The Romanian version of the Nazis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Guard
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2010, 09:31:49 AM »

The Romanian version of the Nazis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Guard

The Slovak version of Hitler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozef_Tiso
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2010, 09:39:46 AM »


My point is, your attempt to pass off collaboration with fascism as simply a Roman Catholic problem is untenable.
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2010, 11:42:20 AM »


My point is, your attempt to pass off collaboration with fascism as simply a Roman Catholic problem is untenable.

No, no. It's only wrong when the Roman Catholics do it.  angel

Seriously, though, perhaps the actual point of this has more to do with trying to stop ecumenism. I think, however, that there are more effective means of doing that that will not undermine one's purpose.
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2010, 09:19:40 PM »

It seems the Jews had better views on the "nazi-fascist" RCs than you Stephanos:


I would be no surprise to me to find the Vatican and the Joos in bed. 
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2010, 09:34:29 PM »

It seems the Jews had better views on the "nazi-fascist" RCs than you Stephanos:


I would be no surprise to me to find the Vatican and the Joos in bed.  



Considering the likelihood of the lower esophageal sphincter being weakened at the Vatican's age, it's probably a bad idea for the Vatican to drink such an acidic drink in bed. I would recommend that the Vatican drink this joos at least two hours before bed time.
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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2010, 09:50:01 PM »

It seems the Jews had better views on the "nazi-fascist" RCs than you Stephanos:


I would be no surprise to me to find the Vatican and the Joos in bed.  



Considering the likelihood of the lower esophageal sphincter being weakened at the Vatican's age, it's probably a bad idea for the Vatican to drink such an acidic drink in bed. I would recommend that the Vatican drink this joos at least two hours before bed time.

 laugh
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« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2010, 01:16:05 AM »

What purpose does such a thread serve, if not to incite hatred?
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« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2010, 01:54:55 AM »

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_s6zY8-yAuYc/R2RUioiW6qI/AAAAAAAAArM/ovOZusZo-Ig/s1600-h/Chetnik+Pavle+Djurisic+Report.jpg


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Господи Ісусе Христе, Сину Божий, помилуй мене грішного.
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« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2010, 02:08:51 AM »

Since most of us here read English only, could you please translate this article for us? Thank you.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 02:09:09 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Shanghaiski
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« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2010, 10:11:25 AM »

The actual point of this thread is a bit mysterious to me. Sure, some Roman Catholic bishops and others, whether out of conviction, convenience, caprice, or cowardice cowed to the cunning connivers of cynical national socialism and fascism. Some Orthodox bishops and others for the same reasons conspicuously collaborated with communists, cavorting in countervirtuous corruption. Others might even cohabitate with carnivorous consumerists. What of it? No one denies these things happen. What we cannot do is make unreasonable extrapolations--because some do it, the whole group supports it. You might as well say that, since some teddy bears are used to smuggle diamonds, drugs, and other contraband, all teddy bears are used as such. But, we know this is not the case. I can pretty much prove that my teddy bear has never and shall never be used for such purposes as long as I am around. Sadly, however, teddy bears cannot speak (that we know of), but many Roman Catholics and Orthodox have spoken out against the many evil acts and movements of the world, and many of these were not doing so out of realpolitik to cover up their vile schemes to wipe out the other party. So, really, we can only learn from these things that we need to speak up for ourselves and our own consciences, repent for our sins, become holy, and such evils will be less. Certainly, we condemn the evils, but posting photos of clergy and fascists does not do that job. We do not know what was going on in the context surrounding the photo, merely that there was proximity. It's a bit like the coverage in the Western press on Serbs and Serbia in the 1990s. A picture may be worth 1,000 words, but those words could all be false.
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« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2010, 10:46:50 AM »

Perhaps some priests were weak but the Catholic Church did not officially support fascism. In my parish church, during the war the priest stockpiled weapons behind the high altar and this was common practice in this region.

Grouping Franco and Mussolini and Hitler into one group is a gross overstatement.
Franco was antidemocratic and monarchist just like the Serbian Chetniks.
On the other hand, Hitler was a democrat, who believed that the people are the supreme source of power. The sad fact is that Hitler believed in a government for the people by the people.. 
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Feanor
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« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2010, 01:06:02 AM »

The Vatican issued direct statements condemning Nazi ideology. Read the Papal letter, 'Mit Brennender Sorge,' which was a Papal warning and condemnation against Nazi beliefs and ideology.

The Vatican certainly did not support the Nazis.
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« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2010, 02:03:49 AM »

why Serbs here don't wanna show what chetniks were doing during the WWII? I can post a list destroyed Catholic churches during the serbian occupation of North Dalatia and Lika (Severna Dalacija i Lika) by them so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina.

The worse is the people can see only this what others did not what they have done toward others. Operation Storm was kinda batterfly effect of balvan revolution. BTW - the serbian partiJots forgot that they heroes collaborate with Italian fascists

why don't you wait for the afterlife and speak with my great uncle who led a Chetnik Division in North Dalmatia where the majority of the contingent were Croats? Do you also want me to start posting pictures of Bosnian Muslim Muftis who were Chetniks also?

And I dont understand what you mean about collaborating with the Italians. My grandparents told me that when the Italians came and took control of North Dalmatia from the Ustashe things were much better. Thats far from collaboration.

I suggest you stop there discussing the issue with someone who comes from a mixed marriage Smiley
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Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2010, 02:11:11 AM »

But while we're at it, check this out my unbelievably uneducated friend.

"collaboration: Chetniks with the occupiers and kvinzlinz in Serbia"


yup chetniks striking a pose with Nazis. Oh wait... or is it communist propaganda??



No way? the communists lied and tried to make it seem as if they were the only anti-nazis in Yugoslavia? why would they do that? Crazy I know! The 500 american pilots rescued by the chetniks for which that guy won an award yesterday? its all a myth...
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Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2010, 02:24:37 AM »

The Vatican issued direct statements condemning Nazi ideology. Read the Papal letter, 'Mit Brennender Sorge,' which was a Papal warning and condemnation against Nazi beliefs and ideology.

The Vatican certainly did not support the Nazis.


Actions speak louder than written words. You also need to define "support", since you can argue that without outright opposition one supports. Sort of like bullying involving bystanders.

Look, I was given the topic of writing about Pius and WW2 and ended up changing my thesis to the fact that the Pope did not support the Nazis and Ustashe, but is guilty of not doing enough. Also, Stepinac as I've stated a million times on this forum was guilty of being stupid and naive. Once he saw the horrors in Croatia, he changed his mind and he harboured jews and Serbs. But nontheless, the man shouldn't be beautified let alone sanctified. There were Catholics that opposed the fascists and Nazis, just like there were Orthodox that supported. But to what ratio? We'll never know. Bottom line is opposition to Hitler et al was a legitimate reason for martyrdom
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Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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