Should the "Great and Holy Council" anthematize Vatican/restore Orth. Rome? - Catholic Responses

[elijahmaria]

CONTEXT NOTE - The following thread started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30219.0.html  -PtA

I think putting in place an Orthodox Pope of Rome would be a brilliant move. As someone noted, it would instantly resolve Europe's canonical issues.

The most likely way for this to happen, in my mind, would be if the European Episcopal Assemblies called for it.

Has anyone yet peeped to the reality that the Roman Pope of Orthodoxy is going to be a Russian or a Slav between a Roc and a Hard Place?

 

[Noddy999]

elijahmaria.
What is you logic for a Russian or Slav? Surely an electoral college would give all bishops within such a Patriarchate evens chance.

[elijahmaria]

elijahmaria.
What is you logic for a Russian or Slav? Surely an electoral college would give all bishops within such a Patriarchate evens chance.

You are sending your bishops to college?  What an idea!!

[Noddy999]

A College of Bishops where Bishops exercise collegiate responsibility. As in the decisions and actions of a Holy Orthodox Synod.

[Noddy999]

Concilliar/synodical

[elijahmaria]

A College of Bishops where Bishops exercise collegiate responsibility. As in the decisions and actions of a Holy Orthodox Synod.

Oh...a synod.  Well why didn't you say so.

[FormerReformer]

A College of Bishops where Bishops exercise collegiate responsibility. As in the decisions and actions of a Holy Orthodox Synod.

Oh...a synod.  Well why didn't you say so.

Yes, we need to define our meanings for our Roman Catholic friends, who have apparently forgotten the definition of "collegiality".  1000 years of papal rule can have an effect on one's memory.

[elijahmaria]

A College of Bishops where Bishops exercise collegiate responsibility. As in the decisions and actions of a Holy Orthodox Synod.

Oh...a synod.  Well why didn't you say so.

Yes, we need to define our meanings for our Roman Catholic friends, who have apparently forgotten the definition of "collegiality".  1000 years of papal rule can have an effect on one's memory.

Absolutely.  Thank you for your kindness.

[Papist]

A College of Bishops where Bishops exercise collegiate responsibility. As in the decisions and actions of a Holy Orthodox Synod.

Oh...a synod.  Well why didn't you say so.

Yes, we need to define our meanings for our Roman Catholic friends, who have apparently forgotten the definition of "collegiality".  1000 years of papal rule can have an effect on one's memory.

Yes, please educate us podunk Catholics. 

[Noddy999]

No individual Apostle (read Bishop if you like) is infallible. See Galatians 2v11-15.

[Papist]

No individual Apostle (read Bishop if you like) is infallible. See Galatians 2v11-15.

Weak apologetics man.

[Noddy999]

You may criticise my learning but the scripture speaks for itself.

[elijahmaria]

You may criticise my learning but the scripture speaks for itself.

One thing you can say about this assertion:  It is not a novelty!!

[Papist]

You may criticise my learning but the scripture speaks for itself.

That's true. They just don't say what you think they say.

[Noddy999]

Yes we know that the latins were fond of inserting text.

[Papist]

Yes we know that the latins were fond of inserting text.

OH, us vile Latins. You know ya love us cuz we are so sweet and cuddly. 

[Noddy999]

I did not intend to impugn a caste. God forbid.

[FormerReformer]

A College of Bishops where Bishops exercise collegiate responsibility. As in the decisions and actions of a Holy Orthodox Synod.

Oh...a synod.  Well why didn't you say so.

Yes, we need to define our meanings for our Roman Catholic friends, who have apparently forgotten the definition of "collegiality".  1000 years of papal rule can have an effect on one's memory.

Yes, please educate us podunk Catholics. 

Well, if you insist... how about a little parable:

There once was a king, who gave to his friend Simon the keys to his best car.  Now, Simon had three children: Antiochus, Alex, and Romulus.  Simon would often allow his sons to borrow the king's car, so long as they returned it with a full tank of gas.  One night, while the older two brothers were occupied in an intense debate at a coffee shop, Romulus took the keys.  He then proceeded to take the car to a "chop-shop" where he had a new paint job done and installed an alarm.  After this, he went to a bar, got way too drunk, and then crashed the car into a ditch.  Alex and Antiochus were very angry with Romulus over this, and demanded Romulus pitch in to get the car fixed.  Romulus replied that this was obviously not that car, that their father had given the keys to this car to him, and that he would drive his car in whatever way he pleased, and how could Antiochus and Alex be so irresponsible as to have let the king's car get stolen.

Romulus then proceeded to drive the stolen car in it's damaged condition, dropping the muffler, driver's side door, and rear panel along his journey.  About fifty yards back, the hood started flapping up, obscuring his view.

[Papist]

A College of Bishops where Bishops exercise collegiate responsibility. As in the decisions and actions of a Holy Orthodox Synod.

Oh...a synod.  Well why didn't you say so.

Yes, we need to define our meanings for our Roman Catholic friends, who have apparently forgotten the definition of "collegiality".  1000 years of papal rule can have an effect on one's memory.

Yes, please educate us podunk Catholics.  

Well, if you insist... how about a little parable:

There once was a king, who gave to his friend Simon the keys to his best car.  Now, Simon had three children: Antiochus, Alex, and Romulus.  Simon would often allow his sons to borrow the king's car, so long as they returned it with a full tank of gas.  One night, while the older two brothers were occupied in an intense debate at a coffee shop, Romulus took the keys.  He then proceeded to take the car to a "chop-shop" where he had a new paint job done and installed an alarm.  After this, he went to a bar, got way too drunk, and then crashed the car into a ditch.  Alex and Antiochus were very angry with Romulus over this, and demanded Romulus pitch in to get the car fixed.  Romulus replied that this was obviously not that car, that their father had given the keys to this car to him, and that he would drive his car in whatever way he pleased, and how could Antiochus and Alex be so irresponsible as to have let the king's car get stolen.

Romulus then proceeded to drive the stolen car in it's damaged condition, dropping the muffler, driver's side door, and rear panel along his journey.  About fifty yards back, the hood started flapping up, obscuring his view.

So Romulus is the Byantine East?

You've already received a couple of warnings to not participate in Faith Issues discussions except as is necessary to correct our misunderstandings of your Roman Catholic faith.  Seeing how you have helped hijack this thread with trolling activity that exceeds the bounds set for our Catholic posters, you are receiving this warning to last for the next 30 days.  If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal it via PM to Fr. George.

- PeterTheAleut

[Noddy999]

I guess if East is West then anything might be possible.
The point being is that if you start with the wrong premise you end up with the wrong answer.

[FormerReformer]

A College of Bishops where Bishops exercise collegiate responsibility. As in the decisions and actions of a Holy Orthodox Synod.

Oh...a synod.  Well why didn't you say so.

Yes, we need to define our meanings for our Roman Catholic friends, who have apparently forgotten the definition of "collegiality".  1000 years of papal rule can have an effect on one's memory.

Yes, please educate us podunk Catholics. 

Well, if you insist... how about a little parable:

There once was a king, who gave to his friend Simon the keys to his best car.  Now, Simon had three children: Antiochus, Alex, and Romulus.  Simon would often allow his sons to borrow the king's car, so long as they returned it with a full tank of gas.  One night, while the older two brothers were occupied in an intense debate at a coffee shop, Romulus took the keys.  He then proceeded to take the car to a "chop-shop" where he had a new paint job done and installed an alarm.  After this, he went to a bar, got way too drunk, and then crashed the car into a ditch.  Alex and Antiochus were very angry with Romulus over this, and demanded Romulus pitch in to get the car fixed.  Romulus replied that this was obviously not that car, that their father had given the keys to this car to him, and that he would drive his car in whatever way he pleased, and how could Antiochus and Alex be so irresponsible as to have let the king's car get stolen.

Romulus then proceeded to drive the stolen car in it's damaged condition, dropping the muffler, driver's side door, and rear panel along his journey.  About fifty yards back, the hood started flapping up, obscuring his view.

So Romulus is the Byantine East?

Only in the sense that the Good Samaritan was a bad neighbor    

[ChristusDominus]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

[Dart]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

[elijahmaria]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

One need never fear that this brainstorm would ever come to fruition.

It would require the most massive burning of documents and expunging of historical texts the world has ever seen.  It would eventually require a re-writing of the Bible.

So, there's nothing here that is not built on sand.

Fear not.

M.

[elijahmaria]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

 

You really think that dissenting Catholics would go where there's no money?

If nothing else these folks know the power of the copy machine and there's always one who has the keys to the chancery copier  ...and a shot at some project or another with a big old budget.

You can't get the real dissenters because they want women priests and they would HATE your liturgy.

Best you can do is look to scoop up the divorced and disgruntled.

The rest of better than three quarters of a billion people would remain Catholic.

M.

[deusveritasest]

Yes we know that the latins were fond of inserting text.

OH, us vile Latins. You know ya love us cuz we are so sweet and cuddly. 

We do love you.

[deusveritasest]

One need never fear that this brainstorm would ever come to fruition.

It would require the most massive burning of documents and expunging of historical texts the world has ever seen.  It would eventually require a re-writing of the Bible.

So, there's nothing here that is not built on sand.

Fear not.

M.

How would the Byzantines or Orientals setting up a Bishop of Rome for themselves require such?

[ialmisry]

A College of Bishops where Bishops exercise collegiate responsibility. As in the decisions and actions of a Holy Orthodox Synod.

Oh...a synod.  Well why didn't you say so.

Yes, we need to define our meanings for our Roman Catholic friends, who have apparently forgotten the definition of "collegiality".  1000 years of papal rule can have an effect on one's memory.

Yes, please educate us podunk Catholics. 

Well, if you insist... how about a little parable:

There once was a king, who gave to his friend Simon the keys to his best car.  Now, Simon had three children: Antiochus, Alex, and Romulus.  Simon would often allow his sons to borrow the king's car, so long as they returned it with a full tank of gas.  One night, while the older two brothers were occupied in an intense debate at a coffee shop, Romulus took the keys.  He then proceeded to take the car to a "chop-shop" where he had a new paint job done and installed an alarm.  After this, he went to a bar, got way too drunk, and then crashed the car into a ditch.  Alex and Antiochus were very angry with Romulus over this, and demanded Romulus pitch in to get the car fixed.  Romulus replied that this was obviously not that car, that their father had given the keys to this car to him, and that he would drive his car in whatever way he pleased, and how could Antiochus and Alex be so irresponsible as to have let the king's car get stolen.

Romulus then proceeded to drive the stolen car in it's damaged condition, dropping the muffler, driver's side door, and rear panel along his journey.  About fifty yards back, the hood started flapping up, obscuring his view.

So Romulus is the Byantine East?

Luke 8:8 As he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." 9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant, 10 he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand

[ialmisry]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

 

You really think that dissenting Catholics would go where there's no money?

If nothing else these folks know the power of the copy machine and there's always one who has the keys to the chancery copier  ...and a shot at some project or another with a big old budget.

You can't get the real dissenters because they want women priests and they would HATE your liturgy.

Best you can do is look to scoop up the divorced and disgruntled.

The rest of better than three quarters of a billion people would remain Catholic.

M.

Btw, our Orthodox parish benefited: a wealthy communicant of the Vatican has given us several donations, the air conditioners for the Church, travel expenses for the priest, etc. "Better that than going to pay off lawsuits for pedophile priests: I know it goes to good use."

[elijahmaria]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

 

You really think that dissenting Catholics would go where there's no money?

If nothing else these folks know the power of the copy machine and there's always one who has the keys to the chancery copier   ...and a shot at some project or another with a big old budget.

You can't get the real dissenters because they want women priests and they would HATE your liturgy.

Best you can do is look to scoop up the divorced and disgruntled.

The rest of better than three quarters of a billion people would remain Catholic.

M.

Btw, our Orthodox parish benefited: a wealthy communicant of the Vatican has given us several donations, the air conditioners for the Church, travel expenses for the priest, etc. "Better that than going to pay off lawsuits for pedophile priests: I know it goes to good use."

When you have tens of millions of Catholics doing that all around the world...let me know.

M.

You've already received a couple of warnings to not participate in Faith Issues discussions except as is necessary to correct our misunderstandings of your Eastern Catholic faith.  Seeing how you have helped hijack this thread with trolling activity that exceeds the bounds set for our Catholic posters, you are being placed back on Post Moderation for the next 30 days.  If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal it via PM to Fr. George.

- PeterTheAleut

[ialmisry]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

 

You really think that dissenting Catholics would go where there's no money?

If nothing else these folks know the power of the copy machine and there's always one who has the keys to the chancery copier  ...and a shot at some project or another with a big old budget.

You can't get the real dissenters because they want women priests and they would HATE your liturgy.

Best you can do is look to scoop up the divorced and disgruntled.

The rest of better than three quarters of a billion people would remain Catholic.

M.

Btw, our Orthodox parish benefited: a wealthy communicant of the Vatican has given us several donations, the air conditioners for the Church, travel expenses for the priest, etc. "Better that than going to pay off lawsuits for pedophile priests: I know it goes to good use."

When you have tens of millions of Catholics doing that all around the world...let me know.

M.

Luke 21:1 He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury; 2 and he saw a poor widow put in two copper coins. 3 And he said, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them; 4 for they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all the living that she had." 5 And as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, 6 "As for these things which you see, the days will come when there shall not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."

[WetCatechumen]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

[stashko]

Many will ,Especally the ones that want a married clergy ,considering what is happening ,around the world...
What about the eastern Catholics Clergy in Italy do they have to remain celibate because of there proximity to the roman Pope ....Does he demand it of them.....

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

[deusveritasest]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

It wouldn't be a huge amount. But it seems that there are dozens of converts from Romanism just on this site.

[Wyatt]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

It wouldn't be a huge amount. But it seems that there are dozens of converts from Romanism just on this site.

Humorously enough, I find that some of the most misinformed about the Catholic faith are ex-Catholics. It's like they were raised in the faith yet they never really grasped it. I have a friend who used to be Catholic but is now Oneness Pentecostal and I can tell you that he is truly ignorant of Catholicism.

[deusveritasest]

(1)I think it would be a good idea. If West Europe is to be canonically organized, it will need a Bishop of Rome. Not only that, but in the middle to long term, one has to think of the reorganization of the Western Patriarchate. The Vatican had one thousand years to repent.

(2)Also, I would like to see the recognition of the 8th and 9th imperial councils, and, if the Holy Spirit is allowed to act, of all the Pan-Orthodox councils that have happened in the last five centuries.

(3)I would like to see dialogue being guided to be joint-work with other Christian confessions for morality, ethics, Godly inspired human rights, for life, and against secularism, militant atheism and pro-death ideologies. At the same time immediately cease and desist all talks about "union" that do not put it as repentance and conversion.

(4)Lastly, I would like to see a commitment to mission in Latin America, having in view the American experience to avoid the problems that eventually rose there and incorporate the many good lessons of bringing the Church to the new continent.

As a transversal subject, in view of itens (1) and (4), the jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church would have to create committees to analyze and study these 1000 years of Western history to identify the *many* positive points it has brought to us, much like the Fathers did with Greek paganism. The West created the greatest material prosperity humanity has ever known, has produced philosophy, art, men and women of great character, and managed to creat systems of government that provide men with liberty from Ceasar's oppression, a first in human history too. Western civilization has show inventivity and a capacity of reinvent itself that no other has ever shown and these things have to be *incorporated* and *improved*.

That will be  automatically guaranteed once you set up your "puppet pope".

Talks with the RC Pope would stop and individual talks with the people of the Catholic Church would only just be beginning. Many of these have disavowed the Pope a long time ago anyhow. The Synod would just be confirming what the faithful laity already have done making it more easy for them to come to the True Faith.

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

It wouldn't be a huge amount. But it seems that there are dozens of converts from Romanism just on this site.

Humorously enough, I find that some of the most misinformed about the Catholic faith are ex-Catholics. It's like they were raised in the faith yet they never really grasped it. I have a friend who used to be Catholic but is now Oneness Pentecostal and I can tell you that he is truly ignorant of Catholicism.

I certainly would say that about those who became Protestants or non-Christians, but the converts on here seem greatly more informed.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Humorously enough, I find that some of the most misinformed about the Catholic faith are ex-Catholics. It's like they were raised in the faith yet they never really grasped it. I have a friend who used to be Catholic but is now Oneness Pentecostal and I can tell you that he is truly ignorant of Catholicism.

I once heard a former Reformed Calvinist theologian make a statement regarding converts from Catholicism to Protestant sects which I found insightful. He said something to the effect that those which leave the Catholic Church tend to have the lowest level of historical knowledge and the worst catechesis, while those Protestants which convert to Catholicism tend to be the most knowledgable and historically informed.

I think this would apply to any of the apostolic/ancient communions. For what other reason besides ignorance would one leave an apostolic church for a Protestant sect?

This was certainly my case being baptized Roman Catholic as an infant, then "converting" to the Southern Baptist church at age fifteen. It was really about meeting God and committing my life to him, but as they trained me in the faith they poisoned me against the Roman Catholic Church, and they rejected my infant baptism and required a "believer's baptism." Anyway, it's pretty easy to tear down another group when you're getting to frame all of the context. At fifteen I had no understanding of my Roman Catholic upbringing, and honestly I had no idea I was baptized. I didn't know this for certain until several years ago when I put some things together and realized that I had received first communion in the Roman Catholic Church, so I asked my mom about it. She said that when she married my baptist dad, he had agreed that any hypothetical children could be raised Roman Catholic. Eight years later when the time came religion had become somewhat important again in his life (as it usually does when kids show up), he flatly refused to allow for infant baptism. When he told my mother this, she was furious that he would go back on his word and had all four of us baptized as infants in secret. I still don't think he knows.

Weird aside on my part, but there you go, a little glimpse into my personal life...

[ChristusDominus]

Humorously enough, I find that some of the most misinformed about the Catholic faith are ex-Catholics. It's like they were raised in the faith yet they never really grasped it. I have a friend who used to be Catholic but is now Oneness Pentecostal and I can tell you that he is truly ignorant of Catholicism.

You can say that again, brother. Especially the ones that cling onto fundamentalist evangelical sects

[Irish Hermit]

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

The Byzantine East would be able to save millions of Catholics from hell.

Those who have divorced and remarried would be welcomed.

They will be told:  Yes, we are able to give you a second sacramental marriage.  No, you are not in mortal sin and you are not going to hell.  And yes, although the Roman Catholic Church forbids you to go to Confession or receive the Eucharist we shall give you both.

I would think that for those who are devout Catholics but remarried, the enormous joy of receiving Communion again could outweigh other factors.  I suppose there would be nothing to stop them attending Roman Catholic parishes and services, while being officially children of Eastern Churches.

[ialmisry]

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

The Byzantine East would be able to save millions of Catholics from hell.

Those who have divorced and remarried would be welcomed.

They will be told:  Yes, we are able to give you a second sacramental marriage.  No, you are not in mortal sin and you are not going to hell.  And yes, although the Roman Catholic Church forbids you to go to Confession or receive the Eucharist we shall give you both.

I would think that for those who are devout Catholics but remarried, the enormous joy of receiving Communion again could outweigh other factors.  I suppose there would be nothing to stop them attending Roman Catholic parishes and services, while being officially children of Eastern Churches.

and take communion-the Vatican will give it to us-except for the Orthodox Church forbidding that.

[elijahmaria]

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

The Byzantine East would be able to save millions of Catholics from hell.

Those who have divorced and remarried would be welcomed.

They will be told:  Yes, we are able to give you a second sacramental marriage.  No, you are not in mortal sin and you are not going to hell.  And yes, although the Roman Catholic Church forbids you to go to Confession or receive the Eucharist we shall give you both.

I would think that for those who are devout Catholics but remarried, the enormous joy of receiving Communion again could outweigh other factors.  I suppose there would be nothing to stop them attending Roman Catholic parishes and services, while being officially children of Eastern Churches.

Dear Father Ambrose,

However much it might surprise you, there are devout Catholics in the world who have willingly gone through the long process of annulment.  And please do not talk to me about cost because most of the annulments that I've been familiar with over the years cost the parties nothing.  Only those who can pay are asked to pay.  It does mean that one has to indicate that they cannot pay, but there's no undue demand, and it takes no longer to receive a determination if you do not pay.

The reason a case takes long is generally because witnesses do not respond in a timely manner or the case is presented poorly by witnesses or by the party who is seeking annulment.  Or it is a particularly difficult case and the tribunal wants to give time for further investigation or intervention.

So there's very little difference between a divorce granted by an Orthodox diocese and ones annulled by a Catholic diocese in terms of time and attention given to the particular circumstances.  I am hearing from more and more Orthodox that their own divorces take a long time to be recognized within the Church so that they may marry again.

People who are Latin rite Catholics are generally not interested in becoming Orthodox, and the dissenting Catholics are even less inclined than the more traditional and faithful ones might be.

You are wishfully thinking here but those who are inclined as you indicate are already trickling into Orthodoxy.  There isn't going to be any great floodgate open with Catholics piling through, no matter where Orthodoxy goes in the world. 

M.

[Wyatt]

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

The Byzantine East would be able to save millions of Catholics from hell.

Those who have divorced and remarried would be welcomed.

They will be told:  Yes, we are able to give you a second sacramental marriage.  No, you are not in mortal sin and you are not going to hell.  And yes, although the Roman Catholic Church forbids you to go to Confession or receive the Eucharist we shall give you both.

I would think that for those who are devout Catholics but remarried, the enormous joy of receiving Communion again could outweigh other factors.  I suppose there would be nothing to stop them attending Roman Catholic parishes and services, while being officially children of Eastern Churches.

Switching religions simply to be able to divorce and remarry is a rather superficial reason for doing so. That was the same reason King Henry VIII left the Catholic Church. I would respect someone a lot more if they said they converted from Catholicism to Orthodoxy based on the notion that they actually felt called by God to Orthodoxy (even though I would disagree with their decision). That is a lot more noble reason than just wanting the green light to divorce and remarry. Plus, as Mary says above, there are many Catholics who get divorced and are able to complete the annulment process. The Roman Catholic Church isn't as horrid and grim as you make it out to be.

[ialmisry]

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

The Byzantine East would be able to save millions of Catholics from hell.

Those who have divorced and remarried would be welcomed.

They will be told:  Yes, we are able to give you a second sacramental marriage.  No, you are not in mortal sin and you are not going to hell.  And yes, although the Roman Catholic Church forbids you to go to Confession or receive the Eucharist we shall give you both.

I would think that for those who are devout Catholics but remarried, the enormous joy of receiving Communion again could outweigh other factors.  I suppose there would be nothing to stop them attending Roman Catholic parishes and services, while being officially children of Eastern Churches.

Dear Father Ambrose,

However much it might surprise you, there are devout Catholics in the world who have willingly gone through the long process of annulment.  And please do not talk to me about cost because most of the annulments that I've been familiar with over the years cost the parties nothing.  Only those who can pay are asked to pay.  It does mean that one has to indicate that they cannot pay, but there's no undue demand, and it takes no longer to receive a determination if you do not pay.

The reason a case takes long is generally because witnesses do not respond in a timely manner or the case is presented poorly by witnesses or by the party who is seeking annulment.  Or it is a particularly difficult case and the tribunal wants to give time for further investigation or intervention.

So there's very little difference between a divorce granted by an Orthodox diocese and ones annulled by a Catholic diocese in terms of time and attention given to the particular circumstances.  I am hearing from more and more Orthodox that their own divorces take a long time to be recognized within the Church so that they may marry again.

People who are Latin rite Catholics are generally not interested in becoming Orthodox, and the dissenting Catholics are even less inclined than the more traditional and faithful ones might be.

You are wishfully thinking here but those who are inclined as you indicate are already trickling into Orthodoxy.  There isn't going to be any great floodgate open with Catholics piling through, no matter where Orthodoxy goes in the world.  

As our Lord said, the gates of Orthodoxy are rather narrow, and there are few that find it.

[Wyatt]

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

The Byzantine East would be able to save millions of Catholics from hell.

Those who have divorced and remarried would be welcomed.

They will be told:  Yes, we are able to give you a second sacramental marriage.  No, you are not in mortal sin and you are not going to hell.  And yes, although the Roman Catholic Church forbids you to go to Confession or receive the Eucharist we shall give you both.

I would think that for those who are devout Catholics but remarried, the enormous joy of receiving Communion again could outweigh other factors.  I suppose there would be nothing to stop them attending Roman Catholic parishes and services, while being officially children of Eastern Churches.

Dear Father Ambrose,

However much it might surprise you, there are devout Catholics in the world who have willingly gone through the long process of annulment.  And please do not talk to me about cost because most of the annulments that I've been familiar with over the years cost the parties nothing.  Only those who can pay are asked to pay.  It does mean that one has to indicate that they cannot pay, but there's no undue demand, and it takes no longer to receive a determination if you do not pay.

The reason a case takes long is generally because witnesses do not respond in a timely manner or the case is presented poorly by witnesses or by the party who is seeking annulment.  Or it is a particularly difficult case and the tribunal wants to give time for further investigation or intervention.

So there's very little difference between a divorce granted by an Orthodox diocese and ones annulled by a Catholic diocese in terms of time and attention given to the particular circumstances.  I am hearing from more and more Orthodox that their own divorces take a long time to be recognized within the Church so that they may marry again.

People who are Latin rite Catholics are generally not interested in becoming Orthodox, and the dissenting Catholics are even less inclined than the more traditional and faithful ones might be.

You are wishfully thinking here but those who are inclined as you indicate are already trickling into Orthodoxy.  There isn't going to be any great floodgate open with Catholics piling through, no matter where Orthodoxy goes in the world.  

As our Lord said, the gates of Orthodoxy are rather narrow, and there are few that find it.

That seems to be a distortion of Christ's words. I don't recall Him using the word "Orthodoxy" nor do I recall Him limiting eternal life to those with literal membership in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[stanley123]

Mary is correct. Only a few Catholics would convert, if any. Roman dissenters would not find the Byzantine East appealing.

The Byzantine East would be able to save millions of Catholics from hell.

Those who have divorced and remarried would be welcomed.

They will be told:  Yes, we are able to give you a second sacramental marriage.  No, you are not in mortal sin and you are not going to hell.  And yes, although the Roman Catholic Church forbids you to go to Confession or receive the Eucharist we shall give you both.

I would think that for those who are devout Catholics but remarried, the enormous joy of receiving Communion again could outweigh other factors.  I suppose there would be nothing to stop them attending Roman Catholic parishes and services, while being officially children of Eastern Churches.

Dear Father Ambrose,

However much it might surprise you, there are devout Catholics in the world who have willingly gone through the long process of annulment.  And please do not talk to me about cost because most of the annulments that I've been familiar with over the years cost the parties nothing.  Only those who can pay are asked to pay.  It does mean that one has to indicate that they cannot pay, but there's no undue demand, and it takes no longer to receive a determination if you do not pay.

The reason a case takes long is generally because witnesses do not respond in a timely manner or the case is presented poorly by witnesses or by the party who is seeking annulment.  Or it is a particularly difficult case and the tribunal wants to give time for further investigation or intervention.

So there's very little difference between a divorce granted by an Orthodox diocese and ones annulled by a Catholic diocese in terms of time and attention given to the particular circumstances.  I am hearing from more and more Orthodox that their own divorces take a long time to be recognized within the Church so that they may marry again.

People who are Latin rite Catholics are generally not interested in becoming Orthodox, and the dissenting Catholics are even less inclined than the more traditional and faithful ones might be.

You are wishfully thinking here but those who are inclined as you indicate are already trickling into Orthodoxy.  There isn't going to be any great floodgate open with Catholics piling through, no matter where Orthodoxy goes in the world. 

M.

The only problem is with so many marriage annulments being given out and for reasons that were never allowed before,is  how can a Catholic couple be sure as to whether or not they are validly married? If it is possible that somewhere down the line, say ten or twenty years from now that the marriage will be declared null and void, it means that all this time they were never Sacramentally married.
The result of this smoke and mirrors annulment process is that fewer Catholic couples are bothering to get married at all, but are satisfied with living together without the bother of a Church wedding. Perhaps they are thinking why go through all the expense and bother of getting married in the Roman Catholic Church, when there is a chance that twenty years from now the marriage will be declared totally null and void by some tribunal.
In the 1920's the number of Catholic marriage annulments per year in the USA was running about 20 or 30 per year. Now, it has run as high as 60,000 Catholic marriage annulments per year in the USA alone.

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!) > Topic: Should the "Great and Holy Council" anthematize Vatican/restore Orth. Rome? - Catholic Responses