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Author Topic: Clergy and neo nazis.  (Read 2156 times) Average Rating: 0
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Joshua1960
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« on: August 21, 2010, 06:25:09 AM »

I made a shocking discovery the other day.  While I was watching Ross Kemp's videos on gangs in Russia I came across other videos of the neo nazi problem in Russia.  It is very disturbing that such groups could thrive in such a place after the events of WWII.  But what was more schocking was that in some of the videos there were Orthodox priest in front of neo nazi parades, and other ceremonies held by these nazi thugs.  So the obvious question is what are these clergy doing hanging around with neo nazis and why isn't the bishops or the Patriarch doing anything about it?  It would appear that neo nazism has found some support in the ranks of the Russian clergy.  I'm open to any feedback on this problem.
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2010, 06:59:40 AM »

The far-right always has an interesting relationship with select members of the clergy/religious leadership, whether it is in Russia, France, India, etc.  Far-right nationalism is a natural union for them, since to them, religion and traditional culture are so inseparably intertwined and seen as vastly superior.  Hardly a new nor limited phenomena; many members of the clergy will seek out routes to further their personal and religious beliefs politically (for they are citizens), whether it is through support of Christian democratic parties, monarchist movements or even the far-right.  Action against said clergy will likely not occur unless a sizable rabble ensues, which I cannot see happening.
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2010, 03:02:25 PM »

Nazism, and its accompanying racist and racialist ideologies, are incompatible with, and antithetical to, Orthodox Christianity.  To compare "moral majority" American conservatives, "progressive" American liberals, or the pacifistic Civil Rights movement to Hitler and his murderous cronies is hyperbole bordering on the asinine.  Any priest affiliating himself with Nazism is doing so in spite of his professed Orthodoxy Christianity, not because there is any "natural affinity" between the two.  There is not.

As for Russian so-called "Neo-Nazis", they're as pathetic and misguided as that Jewish fellow who joined the Klan.  If their idols, the real Nazis, had won the war and implemented the Generalplan Ost, these little poseurs would probably never have been spawned, as their parents would likely have wound up as slaves at best or fertilizer, bookcovers, and bars of soap at worst.

Perhaps these misguided wolves in sheep's cassocks should look to the example of the New Martyr Fr. Daniil Sysoyev of blessed memory (may his intercession be with us) who spoke and wrote in the strongest language against Neo-Nazism, racism, and the Neo-Paganism that often goes along with it.  In fact, Fr. Daniil's life was often threatened by these cretins, but it just so happens that their like-minded pals among the Muslims got to him first.  Birds of a feather flock together, so do pigs and swine...
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2010, 03:27:26 PM »

Amen!
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2010, 05:04:07 PM »

Thank you for the much-needed laugh!   laugh

I was making a point about clergy involvement in politics.  I'm sure that Orthodox clergy who get involved in politics don't see themselves as doing anything particularly evil.  Then again, many devout Communists, Moslems, Republicans, Socialists, Democrats, Conservatives, Liberals, etc. don't think they are doing evil, either.

The Eastern 'Nazi' movement is a poor shadow of the real thing, on that we agree.

But, the comparison regarding American politics is one of involvement, especially since policial parties tend to evolve over time.  For example, the 1964 Civil Rights act was nearly defeated by Democrats, who are now said to champion minority rights.  Clergy who start off getting into politics with one party may find themselves gradually involved in things contrary to the Faith, and I'm willing to say that such was not the case when they first joined.

As to the 'asinine' aspect of this, perhaps you might want to think of the number of murders committed through legalized abortion in the US, and correlate those figures with the Nazi genocide to see how, perhaps, there may actually be some relativity between American politics and the deaths of millions.



Nazism, and its accompanying racist and racialist ideologies, are incompatible with, and antithetical to, Orthodox Christianity.  To compare "moral majority" American conservatives, "progressive" American liberals, or the pacifistic Civil Rights movement to Hitler and his murderous cronies is hyperbole bordering on the asinine.  Any priest affiliating himself with Nazism is doing so in spite of his professed Orthodoxy Christianity, not because there is any "natural affinity" between the two.  There is not.

As for Russian so-called "Neo-Nazis", they're as pathetic and misguided as that Jewish fellow who joined the Klan.  If their idols, the real Nazis, had won the war and implemented the Generalplan Ost, these little poseurs would probably never have been spawned, as their parents would likely have wound up as slaves at best or fertilizer, bookcovers, and bars of soap at worst.

Perhaps these misguided wolves in sheep's cassocks should look to the example of the New Martyr Fr. Daniil Sysoyev of blessed memory (may his intercession be with us) who spoke and wrote in the strongest language against Neo-Nazism, racism, and the Neo-Paganism that often goes along with it.  In fact, Fr. Daniil's life was often threatened by these cretins, but it just so happens that their like-minded pals among the Muslims got to him first.  Birds of a feather flock together, so do pigs and swine...
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2010, 06:20:02 PM »

I made a shocking discovery the other day.  While I was watching Ross Kemp's videos on gangs in Russia I came across other videos of the neo nazi problem in Russia.  It is very disturbing that such groups could thrive in such a place after the events of WWII.  But what was more schocking was that in some of the videos there were Orthodox priest in front of neo nazi parades, and other ceremonies held by these nazi thugs.  So the obvious question is what are these clergy doing hanging around with neo nazis and why isn't the bishops or the Patriarch doing anything about it?  It would appear that neo nazism has found some support in the ranks of the Russian clergy.  I'm open to any feedback on this problem.

It's not terribly shocking to me. There are more than a few members on this very forum who are so far right that they don't seem terribly far off from what you're talking about.
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« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2010, 07:59:31 PM »

Thank you for the much-needed laugh!    

Thank you for returning the favor with this post!  Hilarious! Cheesy

I was making a point about clergy involvement in politics.

The original poster was clearly aware that clergymen are and have been involved in politics.  What was apparently shocking to him was the involvement of Orthodox priests in a Neo-Nazi rally.

An Orthodox priest marching in an anti-abortion rally?  No big surprise.  An Orthodox priest in a Civil Rights rally (like Archbishop Iakovos, for example)?  No big surprise.  An Orthodox priest in a Nazi rally?  Particularly a Russian Nazi rally (when the Nazis considered the Russians to be Untermenschen)?  Big surprise.  Hence, the post that started this thread.

I'm sure that Orthodox clergy who get involved in politics don't see themselves as doing anything particularly evil.

Nazism is a proven evil.  And speaking of a much needed laugh, Russian Nazism is downright hilarious.  I’m sure all of these doltish “Russian Nazis” (try saying that with a straight face) would be very happy living in Reichskommissariat Russland as slaves, or perhaps keeping their Aryan masters clean as bars of Baltic Spring Deodorant Soap.

http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm

Here's a friend for the "Russian Nazi" to hang out with:



Clergy who start off getting into politics with one party may find themselves gradually involved in things contrary to the Faith, and I'm willing to say that such was not the case when they first joined.

Right.  When these Russian priests first decided to involve themselves with the Nazi Party, sixty-five years after the Holocaust and World War II, I’m sure they thought it was a totally benign and innocuous organization.  Plus, they have a rep for making the trains run on time!

As to the 'asinine' aspect of this, perhaps you might want to think of the number of murders committed through legalized abortion in the US, and correlate those figures with the Nazi genocide to see how, perhaps, there may actually be some relativity between American politics and the deaths of millions.

Right, which is why you see all those Orthodox priests marching in pro-abortion rallies, right?  Oh no, wait.  You don’t see that.  In fact, such a sight would be just as shocking and incongruous as seeing an Orthodox priest marching in…A NAZI RALLY!!!

Hope I provided you with another chuckle!  You’ve certainly provided me with a few. Grin
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« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2010, 08:50:36 PM »

Thanks everyone for your replies.  I still don't understand why the bishops don't do something about these out of control priest.  If an Anglican, Catholic or Orthodox priest in the U.S. were to participate with a bone fide nazi organization he would be gone from the Church in days.  This is what puzzles me most.
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« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2010, 08:52:09 PM »

I suppose that the Church in Russia still has a lot more healing to go through.  Let us pray for them.
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« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2010, 10:21:13 PM »

I, too, do not find the current fascination with Nazis to be all that shocking.  To begin with, none of these youngsters probably even know anyone who was a real Nazi.  Also, I have met several Eastern Bloc immigrants who, surprising to me, did not have the animosity toward the Nazis that we have in this country.  This includes a Ukrainian forced laborer and a Serb who spent time at Dachau!  Perhaps the East does not have the benefit of 60 years of Jewish propaganda that we have in this country (and by propaganda, I mean this in the actual meaning of the word and not what it has become to mean to many people).  Times of confusion and economic unrest also tend to be good for the far right.  Keep in mind that there are a lot of people in the ex-Soviet Bloc that consider Capitalism a failed experiment, and are not too eager to go back to Communism.  National Socialism provides a (to them) reasonable alternative.  It is an efficient system where everyone has a place and a rank, as well as something to do.  Unfortunately, the lessons of History are lost on these people.  Personally, I believe what these people are really looking for is a benevolent dictatorship; a monarchy or the like.  It is the most natural form of government, and the longest lasting form (note I said form and not ruler).  Nicolle Machiavelli discusses this in his book "The Prince". 

As to the Church's view on the matter?  Pro Christian totalitarian regimes have been good for the Church, so some form of monarchy or Orthodox dictatorship would not at all be repulsive to the leaders in charge of the Church.  I was discussing this with an Orthodox Priest just this week, and even he said that, absent the atheist religious ideas of Communism, Communism is more in keeping with Christian ideals than Capitalism.  And Fascism, as a form of government, is not particularly anti religion.  Granted, it became such under the German Nazis, but there were Nazi groups (Belgian Walloons as an example) who did not share the anti-Christian sentiment of the German Nazis.  Even the ROCOR was treated well by Nazi Germany, and my mother remembers a Russian Orthodox family that lived across the hall from her during the war.  This is particularly interesting since her father was the Kreisleiter of the city, personally appointed by Hitler to the position. 

As to the racist undertones, the scriptures are full of them.  The whole concept of a "chosen people" is racist, and it is difficult sometimes for the four Gospels to overshadow the whole Old Testament.  What is right?  Yes, I too worry about Russian Orthodox Clergy embracing neo-Fascist politics.  I also do not think it is right.  I am one who values my freedom and do not really relish the thought of other people thinking for me.  But, I am not at all surprised by the current situation.   
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« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2010, 10:36:16 PM »

I made a shocking discovery the other day.  While I was watching Ross Kemp's videos on gangs in Russia I came across other videos of the neo nazi problem in Russia.  It is very disturbing that such groups could thrive in such a place after the events of WWII.  But what was more schocking was that in some of the videos there were Orthodox priest in front of neo nazi parades, and other ceremonies held by these nazi thugs.  So the obvious question is what are these clergy doing hanging around with neo nazis and why isn't the bishops or the Patriarch doing anything about it?  It would appear that neo nazism has found some support in the ranks of the Russian clergy.  I'm open to any feedback on this problem.

Joshua,

Can you provide a link to the videos of the supposed "Russian Neo-Nazi problem" you refer to?

I'm betting that these 'Nazis' are about as genuine as the "Nazi" Frank 'Collins' (real name Cohen) and 'Al Qaeda'...



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« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2010, 11:10:09 PM »

I made a shocking discovery the other day.  While I was watching Ross Kemp's videos on gangs in Russia I came across other videos of the neo nazi problem in Russia.  It is very disturbing that such groups could thrive in such a place after the events of WWII.  But what was more schocking was that in some of the videos there were Orthodox priest in front of neo nazi parades, and other ceremonies held by these nazi thugs.  So the obvious question is what are these clergy doing hanging around with neo nazis and why isn't the bishops or the Patriarch doing anything about it?  It would appear that neo nazism has found some support in the ranks of the Russian clergy.  I'm open to any feedback on this problem.

Joshua,

Can you provide a link to the videos of the supposed "Russian Neo-Nazi problem" you refer to?

I'm betting that these 'Nazis' are about as genuine as the "Nazi" Frank 'Collins' (real name Cohen) and 'Al Qaeda'...



'Fake Al Qaeda Actors Exposed'



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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4784767647228050785#

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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2010, 11:21:40 PM »

I'm not really surprised that there are clergy involved with the ultranationalist groups in Russia. But how do you know if they are canonical clergy?? And even if they are, I'm not sure the hierarchs have any capability to force the clergy to believe one thing or another. People do have free will.

Also, one must note that clergy may be present in order to be witnesses to Christ. Certainly some clergy will be present in such groups to show their agreement with the groups stated beliefs. There is the famous Greek priest who is present at his local soccer teams games, wearing scarves, shouting team slogans etc.--despite attempts from the Church hierarchy to curb his behaviour. There is a priest in Moscow who has the Patriarch's blessing to hold punk rock gatherings in a buuilding by his church. The kids he associates with aren't exactly living upstanding Christian lives, but he is there to minister to them.

At any rate, I know anecdotally Orthodox Christians who are all over the map in terms of political views. Many of whom hold views opposite of mine, and to be quite honest, I find some of their views to be incompatible with holding the same faith I do. But they hold those views anyways.

By the way, why isn't this thread in Politics??
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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2010, 11:49:18 PM »

Well, then there's laughs all around.   Wink

But, seriously, you have to remember context.  Just as you admitted that what passes for neo-naziism in the East hardly holds a candle to the 'real deal' in WW2 Germany, so you can see where people can allow their interest in certain issues within a political party to draw them into areas that they would otherwise not go.

A case in point: do all Orthodox Christians who vote for a political candidate that supports abortion therefore support abortion?  I know plenty of Orthodox who do vote in this manner, though they certainly oppose abortion.

Another case: did all Confederates in the Civil War support slavery, while all Unionists condemned it?  No, it is not that simple. 

Russia and Eastern Europe have very different contexts from us.  They look at our versions of Christianity as corrupt many times because we free Christians did nothing to liberate them from Communist oppression, and then allowed them to slide into anarchy which permitted the KGB to reintegrate into society.  They see us as hypocrites.

I am not excusing genuine genocidal aims, but I am willing to give some of these people the benefit of a doubt, just as I grant many Americans the benefit of a doubt when they vote for politicians who support abortion because other aspects of the politicians platform appeals to them.

You, as a Copt, understand that societies are complex, and we often have to make unsavory compromises in order to survive.  I know many Arab Christians who give their children 'Moslem' names to avoid discrimination, but that does not mean they have betrayed the Faith.  Sometimes you have to side with people who have very different views from your own just to get your own ideas some attention.

You don't know how those clergy got to where they are, standing in a protest with some weird swastika logos.  The meanings of symbols change over time.  For example, a man with a Confederate war flag sticker on the bumper of his car, chances are, does not do so to advocate slavery or to renounce the US Constitution, though this symbol meant that 150 years ago.

The Nazi imagery hardly means what it once did to these Russians, who are more likely turning to it out of opposition to the 'Red Star' of 'internationalism.'  They are a dying race, and see the race-pride side of pseudo-naziism as appealing.  Given that so many churches have nationalistic tendencies, we should not be surprised when clergy get drawn in.



Thank you for the much-needed laugh!    

Thank you for returning the favor with this post!  Hilarious! Cheesy

<snip>
Hope I provided you with another chuckle!  You’ve certainly provided me with a few. Grin
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2010, 12:51:56 PM »

You make some very salient points, Punch, and in context, a lot of what you say makes sense.  I agree most especially with the bit about a benevolent, Orthodox Christian monarchy.  I might favor such a system myself, under the right circumstances.

I’m not sure exactly what you intend by “60 years of Jewish propaganda that we have in this country (and by propaganda, I mean this in the actual meaning of the word and not what it has become to mean to many people)”.  Would you care to elaborate?  I’ve spoken with older Germans who’ve said some similar things, and they struck me as being far from being racist or having Nazi sympathies, but I’d like more information on this point before going any further.

As to the racist undertones, the scriptures are full of them.  The whole concept of a "chosen people" is racist, and it is difficult sometimes for the four Gospels to overshadow the whole Old Testament.  What is right?

I was always taught by my priest that the concept of the “chosen people” had nothing to do with racism, but rather with the redemption of all mankind.  After the fall of man, and the distancing of man from God, the Lord established His covenant with Abraham so that by this man and his descendants, all men would be saved.  This was fulfilled through the obedience of St. Mary and the Incarnation of Our Lord.  So in that respect, the “chosen people” of Israel fulfilled their mission, and as the gentiles were “grafted onto the vine” so we became a part of Israel as well.

The Old Testament preaches separation from the heathen on religious grounds, but when the heathen converts and says, “Let your nation be my nation and (more importantly) let your God be my God” there is no indication that they are still considered to be of an inferior race.  When Moses marries an Ethiopian, those who grumble against him are struck with leprosy.

Even allowing, for the sake of argument, that the Old Testament was full of racist undertones, I would say yes, the Gospel does indeed overshadow such.  How can it not?  The Gospel is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.  As Christians, we must believe when there is a point of conflict between the two (as with the keeping of the kosher dietary laws), the latter trumps the former.

Nationalism is one thing, but ideas of racial superiority and inferiority are something else.  I could understand, and even applaud, a nationalist priest who said that Russotude (if indeed that is a word – please correct my terminology if I’m off here) and Orthodoxy were inextricably linked, but I would challenge the Christianity of one who said, in defiance of our religion, that some people are Herrenvolk and others Untermenschen.

Well, then there's laughs all around.   

Then I’m glad.  Smiley

But, seriously, you have to remember context.  Just as you admitted that what passes for neo-naziism in the East hardly holds a candle to the 'real deal' in WW2 Germany, so you can see where people can allow their interest in certain issues within a political party to draw them into areas that they would otherwise not go.

Forgive me, Father.  I see what you’re saying here, and I’m not trying to be contrary, but the idea of a “Russian Nazi” still seems oxymoronic to me.  Let’s say I was a Russian nationalist, or even a Russian racist, who had an axe to grind with Jews, Central Asians, and other immigrants, and whoever else are the usual targets of these thugs.  It would still make sense for me to create a nationalist or racist organization which did not fall under the Nazi banner, as anyone who has studied Nazi racial theory knows that the Slavs are considered to be a degenerate race.  Why, as a Slav, would I want a poster of Hitler on my wall, when the man would have considered me to be genetic garbage?  No matter what the mitigating issues might be, Father, I still think these folks have some sort of self-hate going on that perhaps they’re trying to work out through their antics.

Unfortunately, the Russian “Nazis” are very violent, and as they work out their inferiority complex, many innocents wind up killed and beaten in the streets:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/world/europe/15russia.htmlhttp://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/world/europe/15russia.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1069278.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-legendre/are-russias-neo-nazis-upp_b_537356.html
http://www.ucsj.org/publications/special-reports/bloody-april-escalation-of-neo-nazi-violence-russia
 

A case in point: do all Orthodox Christians who vote for a political candidate that supports abortion therefore support abortion?  I know plenty of Orthodox who do vote in this manner, though they certainly oppose abortion.

Point taken.

Another case: did all Confederates in the Civil War support slavery, while all Unionists condemned it?  No, it is not that simple.

Again, point taken.

Russia and Eastern Europe have very different contexts from us.  They look at our versions of Christianity as corrupt many times because we free Christians did nothing to liberate them from Communist oppression, and then allowed them to slide into anarchy which permitted the KGB to reintegrate into society.  They see us as hypocrites.

Father, could you clarify what you mean here by “our versions of Christianity”?  Do you mean Western Christianity exclusively, or do you mean those Orthodox living in the West as well?  Either way, did they not realize that the Western democracies are secular states and would never “ride to their rescue” under the banner of the cross except in a dream world?  Did they also not realize that the Orthodox in the West were powerless to effect such a “liberation”?  How were we supposed to save them from the KGB?

I am not excusing genuine genocidal aims, but I am willing to give some of these people the benefit of a doubt, just as I grant many Americans the benefit of a doubt when they vote for politicians who support abortion because other aspects of the politicians platform appeals to them.

So are you saying, Father, that some of these people marching alongside these violent, racist gangs (have you watched the video on these extremely violent gangs?) may not share their racist and genocidal views?  Why else would they march with them?  Surely, if it’s the sort of socialist political/economic philosophy you described, there are other alternatives in the Russian political spectrum that are not affiliated with these violent thugs.

You, as a Copt, understand that societies are complex, and we often have to make unsavory compromises in order to survive.  I know many Arab Christians who give their children 'Moslem' names to avoid discrimination, but that does not mean they have betrayed the Faith.  Sometimes you have to side with people who have very different views from your own just to get your own ideas some attention.

True, but I think we have to draw the line somewhere, and I think that separating ourselves from violent men is a good place to start.  (It’s beside the point, but I’m not an ethnic Egyptian, by the way.  I’m of a diverse background, including Balkan, African, and other elements).

You don't know how those clergy got to where they are, standing in a protest with some weird swastika logos.  The meanings of symbols change over time.

Respectfully, Father, based on everything I’ve read about the activities of the Russian Neo-Nazis, the swastika means much the same for them as it did for the genuine Nazis, except perhaps that they are willfully blind to the fact that the real Nazis would have seen them as just as inferior as the people they now attack in the street.  I’m sure you know that these gangs are extraordinarily violent, responsible for the deaths and beatings of many innocents who they’ve attacked in the streets and tube stations for nothing more than being of an ethnicity with which they had a beef.

For example, a man with a Confederate war flag sticker on the bumper of his car, chances are, does not do so to advocate slavery or to renounce the US Constitution, though this symbol meant that 150 years ago.

I’m willing to acknowledge that all who display this flag do not attempt to indicate the things which you’ve referenced above (the Duke boys, for example!  Another joke!), but a great many of them mean just that.  In my younger, more testosterone driven days, my friends and I physically fought with many such people who displayed these flags, usually because one of them made some racist remark to one or another of the people in our group.

The Nazi imagery hardly means what it once did to these Russians, who are more likely turning to it out of opposition to the 'Red Star' of 'internationalism.'

Again, I believe there are better alternatives.  The Cross of Christ beats the red star and the swastika anytime for me, and I’d think it would for any Orthodox priest worth his salt, in Russia or elsewhere.

They are a dying race, and see the race-pride side of pseudo-naziism as appealing.  Given that so many churches have nationalistic tendencies, we should not be surprised when clergy get drawn in.

Nationalism is one thing, so-called “race pride” is something else, especially when the sort of “race pride” indicated by authentic Nazism relegates the Slavs to the role of “a degenerate race of slaves”.  The idea of Slavs celebrating the birthday of a man who taught that Slavs were “racially inferior” (see articles linked above) is still too bizarre for me to contemplate.  The idea of any Orthodox priest advocating the anti-Christian ideas of so-called “racial superiority” and “racial inferiority” is even further beyond the pale.  But, I suppose that we all fall into the Enemy’s traps in different ways and give in to our baser tendencies.  May God have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2010, 04:05:10 PM »

I don't think we are going to come to any agreement on this topic, so I will just summarize and then bow out.

1) Clergy always have, and will continue to, take an interest in politics.
2) Very often, our personal political priorities make for strange bedfellows.
3) Most people support parties they are not 100% supportive of when it comes to the entire platform.
4) Russian neo-naziism and the 'real deal' are, in many ways, antithetical.
5) Anyone who looks for consistency in politics is a fool.
6) The Cross cannot replace the Red Star any more than it can the Swastika or 'Old Glory' because they are totally different systems of thought according to Christianity.  The day the Cross replaces civil symbols is the day we are Moslem (Islam sees religion and politics as utterly combined).
7) The meanings of symbols change over time.  Again, think of the Cross.
8 ) There are violent elements in every political movement, and so I am less willing to condemn someone unless I know specifically that they are calling for violence.
9) Finally, let's not forget the Russian habit of hijacking movements.  I'm not too sure that Orthodox clergy there are a bit more willing to get into fringe activities with the idea of guiding them back to the Church.

Anyway, please pray for me: I'm having surgery at the end of the week which I hope will reverse my present circumstances.



You make some very salient points, Punch, and in context, a lot of what you say makes sense.  I agree most especially with the bit about a benevolent, Orthodox Christian monarchy.  I might favor such a system myself, under the right circumstances.

I’m not sure exactly what you intend by “60 years of Jewish propaganda that we have in this country (and by propaganda, I mean this in the actual meaning of the word and not what it has become to mean to many people)”.  Would you care to elaborate?  I’ve spoken with older Germans who’ve said some similar things, and they struck me as being far from being racist or having Nazi sympathies, but I’d like more information on this point before going any further.

As to the racist undertones, the scriptures are full of them.  The whole concept of a "chosen people" is racist, and it is difficult sometimes for the four Gospels to overshadow the whole Old Testament.  What is right?

I was always taught by my priest that the concept of the “chosen people” had nothing to do with racism, but rather with the redemption of all mankind.  After the fall of man, and the distancing of man from God, the Lord established His covenant with Abraham so that by this man and his descendants, all men would be saved.  This was fulfilled through the obedience of St. Mary and the Incarnation of Our Lord.  So in that respect, the “chosen people” of Israel fulfilled their mission, and as the gentiles were “grafted onto the vine” so we became a part of Israel as well.

The Old Testament preaches separation from the heathen on religious grounds, but when the heathen converts and says, “Let your nation be my nation and (more importantly) let your God be my God” there is no indication that they are still considered to be of an inferior race.  When Moses marries an Ethiopian, those who grumble against him are struck with leprosy.

Even allowing, for the sake of argument, that the Old Testament was full of racist undertones, I would say yes, the Gospel does indeed overshadow such.  How can it not?  The Gospel is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.  As Christians, we must believe when there is a point of conflict between the two (as with the keeping of the kosher dietary laws), the latter trumps the former.

Nationalism is one thing, but ideas of racial superiority and inferiority are something else.  I could understand, and even applaud, a nationalist priest who said that Russotude (if indeed that is a word – please correct my terminology if I’m off here) and Orthodoxy were inextricably linked, but I would challenge the Christianity of one who said, in defiance of our religion, that some people are Herrenvolk and others Untermenschen.

Well, then there's laughs all around.   

Then I’m glad.  Smiley

But, seriously, you have to remember context.  Just as you admitted that what passes for neo-naziism in the East hardly holds a candle to the 'real deal' in WW2 Germany, so you can see where people can allow their interest in certain issues within a political party to draw them into areas that they would otherwise not go.

Forgive me, Father.  I see what you’re saying here, and I’m not trying to be contrary, but the idea of a “Russian Nazi” still seems oxymoronic to me.  Let’s say I was a Russian nationalist, or even a Russian racist, who had an axe to grind with Jews, Central Asians, and other immigrants, and whoever else are the usual targets of these thugs.  It would still make sense for me to create a nationalist or racist organization which did not fall under the Nazi banner, as anyone who has studied Nazi racial theory knows that the Slavs are considered to be a degenerate race.  Why, as a Slav, would I want a poster of Hitler on my wall, when the man would have considered me to be genetic garbage?  No matter what the mitigating issues might be, Father, I still think these folks have some sort of self-hate going on that perhaps they’re trying to work out through their antics.

Unfortunately, the Russian “Nazis” are very violent, and as they work out their inferiority complex, many innocents wind up killed and beaten in the streets:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/world/europe/15russia.htmlhttp://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/world/europe/15russia.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1069278.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-legendre/are-russias-neo-nazis-upp_b_537356.html
http://www.ucsj.org/publications/special-reports/bloody-april-escalation-of-neo-nazi-violence-russia
 

A case in point: do all Orthodox Christians who vote for a political candidate that supports abortion therefore support abortion?  I know plenty of Orthodox who do vote in this manner, though they certainly oppose abortion.

Point taken.

Another case: did all Confederates in the Civil War support slavery, while all Unionists condemned it?  No, it is not that simple.

Again, point taken.

Russia and Eastern Europe have very different contexts from us.  They look at our versions of Christianity as corrupt many times because we free Christians did nothing to liberate them from Communist oppression, and then allowed them to slide into anarchy which permitted the KGB to reintegrate into society.  They see us as hypocrites.

Father, could you clarify what you mean here by “our versions of Christianity”?  Do you mean Western Christianity exclusively, or do you mean those Orthodox living in the West as well?  Either way, did they not realize that the Western democracies are secular states and would never “ride to their rescue” under the banner of the cross except in a dream world?  Did they also not realize that the Orthodox in the West were powerless to effect such a “liberation”?  How were we supposed to save them from the KGB?

I am not excusing genuine genocidal aims, but I am willing to give some of these people the benefit of a doubt, just as I grant many Americans the benefit of a doubt when they vote for politicians who support abortion because other aspects of the politicians platform appeals to them.

So are you saying, Father, that some of these people marching alongside these violent, racist gangs (have you watched the video on these extremely violent gangs?) may not share their racist and genocidal views?  Why else would they march with them?  Surely, if it’s the sort of socialist political/economic philosophy you described, there are other alternatives in the Russian political spectrum that are not affiliated with these violent thugs.

You, as a Copt, understand that societies are complex, and we often have to make unsavory compromises in order to survive.  I know many Arab Christians who give their children 'Moslem' names to avoid discrimination, but that does not mean they have betrayed the Faith.  Sometimes you have to side with people who have very different views from your own just to get your own ideas some attention.

True, but I think we have to draw the line somewhere, and I think that separating ourselves from violent men is a good place to start.  (It’s beside the point, but I’m not an ethnic Egyptian, by the way.  I’m of a diverse background, including Balkan, African, and other elements).

You don't know how those clergy got to where they are, standing in a protest with some weird swastika logos.  The meanings of symbols change over time.

Respectfully, Father, based on everything I’ve read about the activities of the Russian Neo-Nazis, the swastika means much the same for them as it did for the genuine Nazis, except perhaps that they are willfully blind to the fact that the real Nazis would have seen them as just as inferior as the people they now attack in the street.  I’m sure you know that these gangs are extraordinarily violent, responsible for the deaths and beatings of many innocents who they’ve attacked in the streets and tube stations for nothing more than being of an ethnicity with which they had a beef.

For example, a man with a Confederate war flag sticker on the bumper of his car, chances are, does not do so to advocate slavery or to renounce the US Constitution, though this symbol meant that 150 years ago.

I’m willing to acknowledge that all who display this flag do not attempt to indicate the things which you’ve referenced above (the Duke boys, for example!  Another joke!), but a great many of them mean just that.  In my younger, more testosterone driven days, my friends and I physically fought with many such people who displayed these flags, usually because one of them made some racist remark to one or another of the people in our group.

The Nazi imagery hardly means what it once did to these Russians, who are more likely turning to it out of opposition to the 'Red Star' of 'internationalism.'

Again, I believe there are better alternatives.  The Cross of Christ beats the red star and the swastika anytime for me, and I’d think it would for any Orthodox priest worth his salt, in Russia or elsewhere.

They are a dying race, and see the race-pride side of pseudo-naziism as appealing.  Given that so many churches have nationalistic tendencies, we should not be surprised when clergy get drawn in.

Nationalism is one thing, so-called “race pride” is something else, especially when the sort of “race pride” indicated by authentic Nazism relegates the Slavs to the role of “a degenerate race of slaves”.  The idea of Slavs celebrating the birthday of a man who taught that Slavs were “racially inferior” (see articles linked above) is still too bizarre for me to contemplate.  The idea of any Orthodox priest advocating the anti-Christian ideas of so-called “racial superiority” and “racial inferiority” is even further beyond the pale.  But, I suppose that we all fall into the Enemy’s traps in different ways and give in to our baser tendencies.  May God have mercy on us all.

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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2010, 04:45:13 PM »


6) The Cross cannot replace the Red Star any more than it can the Swastika or 'Old Glory' because they are totally different systems of thought according to Christianity.  The day the Cross replaces civil symbols is the day we are Moslem (Islam sees religion and politics as utterly combined).

absolutely.  When totalitarianism does happen here (and the way we're going, it will happen), it will occur under the symbol of the cross being draped in the American flag.  That is the only way it can be "sold" to the hoi polloi.
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2010, 05:20:56 PM »

Political commentary moved to this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29473.0.html

Please keep this public thread free of political debate.

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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2010, 05:30:53 PM »


I’m not sure exactly what you intend by “60 years of Jewish propaganda that we have in this country (and by propaganda, I mean this in the actual meaning of the word and not what it has become to mean to many people)”.  Would you care to elaborate?  I’ve spoken with older Germans who’ve said some similar things, and they struck me as being far from being racist or having Nazi sympathies, but I’d like more information on this point before going any further.


Propaganda is simply the presenting of information to support a certain point or ideal, as opposed to giving a fair and balanced account.  This does not mean that Propaganda is necessarily untrue, only that there is no attempt (and sometimes with good reason) to present both sides of an issue.  One could arguably say that a fair and balanced account of the Nazis would yield little good, but I would tend to disagree, having some first hand accounts delivered to me during my life.  As to the Jewish "Propaganda", it is little news that the Jews have a significant control over the US media, far out of proportion to their numbers.  Also, it is certainly in the Jews best interests to ensure that what happened to them in Nazi occupied Europe is not forgotten, and does not happen again.  As such, I would be willing to bet that there is far more information available on the atrocities of the Nazis in this country, and that it is presented far more frequently and in more forms, than in other countries where the media (an for that matter, the Jews) have less influence.  That is what I meant by the term Jewish Propaganda.
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2010, 05:32:12 PM »


6) The Cross cannot replace the Red Star any more than it can the Swastika or 'Old Glory' because they are totally different systems of thought according to Christianity.  The day the Cross replaces civil symbols is the day we are Moslem (Islam sees religion and politics as utterly combined).

absolutely.  When totalitarianism does happen here (and the way we're going, it will happen), it will occur under the symbol of the cross being draped in the American flag.  That is the only way it can be "sold" to the hoi polloi.

Agreed.
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2010, 06:25:24 PM »

I’m sorry you’re bowing out, Father, but I’d like to do you the courtesy of one final reply.

Clergy always have, and will continue to, take an interest in politics.

Agreed, but the very fact that certain individuals are indeed clergymen, or even Christian laymen, should preclude their endorsement of things contrary to Christianity, such as, in the context of this thread, Nazi racism.  Unfortunately, this apparently isn’t the case in the real world.

Very often, our personal political priorities make for strange bedfellows.

Yes, this is true.  But one would think that for those whose chief concern is the world that is to come, if any of their personal proclivities or political priorities were contrary to the Gospel, it would be the former that would have to give way.

Russian neo-naziism and the 'real deal' are, in many ways, antithetical.

The chief common elements in both, extreme racism and violence against innocents, are incompatible with Christianity.

Anyone who looks for consistency in politics is a fool.

True, but we should be able to expect consistency from our Church, which is eternal and doesn’t bend to the fashions of this world.

The Cross cannot replace the Red Star any more than it can the Swastika or 'Old Glory' because they are totally different systems of thought according to Christianity.  The day the Cross replaces civil symbols is the day we are Moslem (Islam sees religion and politics as utterly combined).

I respectfully disagree, as it pertains to Orthodoxy.  As others have pointed out, there has been a certain synergy between the Church and Orthodox monarchies in the past.  In fact, it seems that a considerable number of posters on these boards, from all walks of life, feel this might be an ideal form of government.  That said, I wouldn’t want to live in any other sort of theocracy.

The meanings of symbols change over time.  Again, think of the Cross.

Agreed.  But save for the fact that they choose to conveniently ignore Hitler’s views on the Slavic peoples, the Russian “Nazis” use the swastika just as their German predecessors did.  They even employ portraits of Hitler, demonstrating their consistency with his use of the symbol.

There are violent elements in every political movement, and so I am less willing to condemn someone unless I know specifically that they are calling for violence.

I think it’s safe to say that the Russian Neo-Nazi movement employs street violence far more often than, say, either of the mainstreamAmerican parties.

Finally, let's not forget the Russian habit of hijacking movements.  I'm not too sure that Orthodox clergy there are a bit more willing to get into fringe activities with the idea of guiding them back to the Church.

I hope you’re right there, and I pray that this is the case.

Anyway, please pray for me: I'm having surgery at the end of the week which I hope will reverse my present circumstances.

May the Lord have mercy on his servant, the priest Giryus.  I sincerely hope and pray that your surgery goes well and you get the positive results you are anticipating.  I also beg your prayers for my health, and for you to remember me when you’re in the house of the Lord.


I’m not sure exactly what you intend by “60 years of Jewish propaganda that we have in this country (and by propaganda, I mean this in the actual meaning of the word and not what it has become to mean to many people)”.  Would you care to elaborate?  I’ve spoken with older Germans who’ve said some similar things, and they struck me as being far from being racist or having Nazi sympathies, but I’d like more information on this point before going any further.


Propaganda is simply the presenting of information to support a certain point or ideal, as opposed to giving a fair and balanced account.  This does not mean that Propaganda is necessarily untrue, only that there is no attempt (and sometimes with good reason) to present both sides of an issue.  One could arguably say that a fair and balanced account of the Nazis would yield little good, but I would tend to disagree, having some first hand accounts delivered to me during my life.  As to the Jewish "Propaganda", it is little news that the Jews have a significant control over the US media, far out of proportion to their numbers.  Also, it is certainly in the Jews best interests to ensure that what happened to them in Nazi occupied Europe is not forgotten, and does not happen again.  As such, I would be willing to bet that there is far more information available on the atrocities of the Nazis in this country, and that it is presented far more frequently and in more forms, than in other countries where the media (an for that matter, the Jews) have less influence.  That is what I meant by the term Jewish Propaganda.

Thank you for this clarification.  It would indeed be ironic if we in the States had more access to information about the war and the atrocities involved than those who live in the nations wherein most of the fighting actually took place.
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2010, 06:49:48 PM »

In response to a note above, wouldn't the Nazis actually be far left? They are the National Socialist Party, after all. On the issues they espoused leftist doctrines, did they not? Of course, compared to the Stalinists they would be the Right.
Right or left, it is shameful that priests would be associated with them. Perhaps it has something to do with anti-Semitism, I have met more than my share of anti-Semites as an Orthodox Christian.
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2010, 07:15:21 PM »

^If politics were measured on a circular spectrum, far-left and far-right would meet each other.  There is really no difference between the two except by means to reach the same end.  Both far-right and far-left movements have propagated anti-religion attacks (particularly anti-Christianity), bigotry, homophobia, etc., etc. and all should be condemned for that.  In theory, yes, communism looks to be an ideal system that is compatible with Orthodox theology, but it has NEVER actually worked that way and has been hostile to the Church and other Christian confessions to the point of nearly destroying them.  The problem of trying to find a system of government that is compatible with Orthodox theology and practice runs the danger of making the state the head of the church rather than vice-versa.

Note to moderators: If you feel this is too politically charged to be here, feel free to move it.
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2010, 07:59:30 PM »

In response to a note above, wouldn't the Nazis actually be far left? They are the National Socialist Party, after all. On the issues they espoused leftist doctrines, did they not? Of course, compared to the Stalinists they would be the Right.
Right or left, it is shameful that priests would be associated with them. Perhaps it has something to do with anti-Semitism, I have met more than my share of anti-Semites as an Orthodox Christian.

There were socialist elements of the Nazi platform, but after the Night of the Long Knives (and with it the execution of Ernst Rohm and the purging of the SA) most of those elements were erased.
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2010, 09:23:49 PM »

 If their idols, the real Nazis, had won the war and implemented the Generalplan Ost, these little poseurs would probably never have been spawned, as their parents would likely have wound up as slaves at best or fertilizer, bookcovers, and bars of soap at worst.
And you really beleive that Germans did bookcovers of human skin and in soap opera?
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2010, 10:06:42 PM »


Thank you for this clarification.  It would indeed be ironic if we in the States had more access to information about the war and the atrocities involved than those who live in the nations wherein most of the fighting actually took place.


The irony may come from the fact that the war took place over a vast area.  I read some first hand accounts from German soldiers who were treated as heroes in some parts of the Ukrainian part of the Soviet Union.  Even after the SS got there, the Germans could not hold a candle to what Stalin did to those people.  Then there was the fact (never shown in any war movies in the US) that many German commanders were soldiers, not Nazis.  Atrocities outside of the norms of war were not tolerated by many of these Wehrmacht commanders.  There were also at least two distinct elements of the SS, with the actual combat units less likely to commit atrocities than those assigned to the Einsatzgruppen.  I read an account written by an SS soldier of the Belgian Walloon Division of the SS of his action in the East.  I was taken aback by the numerous complementary observations made of the Russian and Ukrainian people, and his lack of animosity toward them.  He saw his mission as freeing them from Communism, not as some subjugation of sub-human hoards.  But then again, he and his men were Belgian and not German Nazis.  Then again, I have read many first hand accounts of SS combat soldiers who were completely disgusted with the SS of the Einsatzgruppen.

I would say that if you were from a region that had suffered under Stalin, and was being occupied by German divisions under the command of men like Degrelle and Meyer, or old German blue bloods like von Rundstedt or Hasso von Manteuffel, you would probably have a different view of Nazis than that commonly portrayed here in the US.  Also, if you were in one of the Serbian regions where even German and Italian troops were disgusted by the actions of the Croatians, you may (as one Serbian Priest that I knew) have a far more benevolent view of the Germans.  In his case, his relatives were saved from death at the hands of the Croatians by German soldiers, only to be killed by Communists after the Germans left.

This is what I mean by Propaganda versus actual history (and I don't mean revisionism, either).  The Nazis cannot be considered "good" by any means of civilized measure, and I say this being the grandson of a high ranking Nazi.  However, not all Nazis, much less all Germans, were quite what they are portrayed in the movies.  In fact, my family is alive because my Grandfather was not the type of person portrayed in the movies, and this was later rewarded when they were in a Danish concentration camp after the war.  A Danish smuggler was captured by the Gestapo in the city where my grandfather was Kreisleiter.  The penalty for this is, of course, death.  However, when the smuggler explained to my grandfather that the conditions in Denmark were terrible, and that he was only trying to feed his family, my grandfather told the Gestapo to release him.  This man was later the commander of the Danish concentration camp where my family spent three years after the war.  While I am sure that this particular Dane had no love for Germans or Nazis, I know (by the way he treated my family) that his view of the Germans was not entirely what is portrayed in the films.
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2010, 10:20:37 PM »

In response to a note above, wouldn't the Nazis actually be far left? They are the National Socialist Party, after all. On the issues they espoused leftist doctrines, did they not? Of course, compared to the Stalinists they would be the Right.
Right or left, it is shameful that priests would be associated with them. Perhaps it has something to do with anti-Semitism, I have met more than my share of anti-Semites as an Orthodox Christian.

if you're going to use the now obsolete right-light spectrum, yes the National Socialists were definitely far left. As a general rule of thumb, left is progressive (in wanting change) and the right is conservative in keeping or returning to a particular status quo. Read Jonah Goldberg's "Liberal Fascism", good read. It is a myth that Hitler's nazis were "capitalists", they were definitely non-marxist socialists with a penchant for neo-mercantilist corporatism.

Edit: I also might add that I find it rather disturbing that the Nazi title gets thrown around so often. Any right-wing movement is easily classified as such, which downplays the real horrors that occured and went with the Nazi ideology. Even the word fascism gets thrown around so often and unnecessarily. They've all but lost their true meanings and significance.
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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2010, 10:54:21 PM »

The irony may come from the fact that the war took place over a vast area.  I read some first hand accounts from German soldiers who were treated as heroes in some parts of the Ukrainian part of the Soviet Union.  Even after the SS got there, the Germans could not hold a candle to what Stalin did to those people. 
And what was bad that Stalin did to his people? That he made peasants children into doctors, engineers, pilots and cosmanauts? That he launched the aviation industry which once produced 40% of world's airplanes?

  In fact, my family is alive because my Grandfather was not the type of person portrayed in the movies, and this was later rewarded when they were in a Danish concentration camp after the war.  A Danish smuggler was captured by the Gestapo in the city where my grandfather was Kreisleiter.  The penalty for this is, of course, death.  However, when the smuggler explained to my grandfather that the conditions in Denmark were terrible, and that he was only trying to feed his family, my grandfather told the Gestapo to release him.  This man was later the commander of the Danish concentration camp where my family spent three years after the war.  While I am sure that this particular Dane had no love for Germans or Nazis, I know (by the way he treated my family) that his view of the Germans was not entirely what is portrayed in the films.
Got it. Yoour granfather was Oskar Schwindler.
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« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2010, 11:01:28 PM »

The irony may come from the fact that the war took place over a vast area.  I read some first hand accounts from German soldiers who were treated as heroes in some parts of the Ukrainian part of the Soviet Union.  Even after the SS got there, the Germans could not hold a candle to what Stalin did to those people. 
And what was bad that Stalin did to his people? That he made peasants children into doctors, engineers, pilots and cosmanauts? That he launched the aviation industry which once produced 40% of world's airplanes?

That he murdered people (including my great-grandfather). That he presided over a totalitarian regime that used torture, blackmail, deportation and summary executions. That he poisoned people's minds to such an extent that even you cannot still recover.
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« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2010, 11:06:43 PM »

The irony may come from the fact that the war took place over a vast area.  I read some first hand accounts from German soldiers who were treated as heroes in some parts of the Ukrainian part of the Soviet Union.  Even after the SS got there, the Germans could not hold a candle to what Stalin did to those people. 
And what was bad that Stalin did to his people? That he made peasants children into doctors, engineers, pilots and cosmanauts? That he launched the aviation industry which once produced 40% of world's airplanes?

  In fact, my family is alive because my Grandfather was not the type of person portrayed in the movies, and this was later rewarded when they were in a Danish concentration camp after the war.  A Danish smuggler was captured by the Gestapo in the city where my grandfather was Kreisleiter.  The penalty for this is, of course, death.  However, when the smuggler explained to my grandfather that the conditions in Denmark were terrible, and that he was only trying to feed his family, my grandfather told the Gestapo to release him.  This man was later the commander of the Danish concentration camp where my family spent three years after the war.  While I am sure that this particular Dane had no love for Germans or Nazis, I know (by the way he treated my family) that his view of the Germans was not entirely what is portrayed in the films.
Got it. Yoour granfather was Oskar Schwindler.

stalin definitely didnt kill anyone
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Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2010, 11:53:37 PM »

The irony may come from the fact that the war took place over a vast area.  I read some first hand accounts from German soldiers who were treated as heroes in some parts of the Ukrainian part of the Soviet Union.  Even after the SS got there, the Germans could not hold a candle to what Stalin did to those people. 
And what was bad that Stalin did to his people? That he made peasants children into doctors, engineers, pilots and cosmanauts? That he launched the aviation industry which once produced 40% of world's airplanes?


In addition to the gulags and the Ukrainian famine, Stalin did indeed turn the Soviet Union from a backward agrarian society to a force to be reckoned with, and did so within an impressive time frame.  He also kicked the stuffing out of my country of birth, not just with superior manpower (which is the excuse that some would use), but with some of the best and most advanced equipment of the time.  I hear all the time that the US should have let Patton keep going after the war and settle things with Russia, too.  For my part, I am not sure that the US could have won a war with Russia at that point, nuclear weapons or not.

As to the comment about my grandfather being anything like Schindler, not a chance.  First off, most of the stuff in the nice little movie about Schindler is pretty much BS and propaganda.  Second, my grandfather was wanted for war crimes after the war.  While it is true that the resistance never bothered him because they knew he would be replaced with much worse, he was no angel and was not afraid to shoot someone that he thought needed shooting, rightfully or not.  The story was simply to point out perspective (a point you obviously missed).  There were plenty of people who knew my grandfather that would have had a far different view of him than the Danish camp commander.  The Jews being one group in particular.  There is also a very popular television series in Germany about the city where he lived based on a very popular book.  The author was not as impressed with him as the man in my story.  Again, there are at least two sides to every story.   
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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2010, 12:04:02 AM »



stalin definitely didnt kill anyone

That statement really is not worthy of a response.  I'd give you about a 0/10 on the troll scale.  At least Simkins post had some basis in fact.  I'd give him at least a 6/10 on the troll scale.
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2010, 04:26:30 PM »

stalin definitely didnt kill anyone
Please see the Great Purge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
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« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2010, 01:45:48 AM »

Far-right nationalism is a natural union for them, since to them, religion and traditional culture are so inseparably intertwined and seen as vastly superior.
If you read the book of Alfred Rosenberg, you should understand that certain philosophy can help a person to achieve moral heights only if it is rooted in his blood. National Socialism is a German phenomenon and as such has no root in Russian blood. As a consequnce, Russian people who practice Nazi ideology can only shout at meetings, but in any real situation...

Here you can watch the video where the leader of Russian "Nazis" Barkashov when shown a gun  apologizes before Jews and gives out the names of his accomplices:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB7C1QD4Eoo

Apparantly this man has no Honor, no blood und keine Boden.

This is why every true Russian nationalist supports canonization of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya.

Simkins, you have been instructed here that if you want to continue your agitation for canonisation of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya you should PM Fr. George to reopen that topic and not trying to disobey the locking of if. Because of this you are put on 40-day-long post moderation - mike.
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« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2010, 03:44:08 AM »



stalin definitely didnt kill anyone


That statement really is not worthy of a response.  I'd give you about a 0/10 on the troll scale.  At least Simkins post had some basis in fact.  I'd give him at least a 6/10 on the troll scale.
IMO you didn't get an irony.
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« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2010, 12:40:46 PM »



stalin definitely didnt kill anyone


That statement really is not worthy of a response.  I'd give you about a 0/10 on the troll scale.  At least Simkins post had some basis in fact.  I'd give him at least a 6/10 on the troll scale.
IMO you didn't get an irony.


Always possible.  If so, I am sorry.
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« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2010, 02:51:31 PM »

Given the crazy things on the internet, it is getting harder and harder to discern 'irony' from 'insanity.'  Honestly, some people seriously believe the craziest of ideas without any sort of shame.  That's why there  Wink are so helpful...



stalin definitely didnt kill anyone


That statement really is not worthy of a response.  I'd give you about a 0/10 on the troll scale.  At least Simkins post had some basis in fact.  I'd give him at least a 6/10 on the troll scale.
IMO you didn't get an irony.


Always possible.  If so, I am sorry.
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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2010, 11:58:15 PM »

I cannot believe anyone on this forum would actually believe I am stupid enough to actually think Stalin didn't kill anyone. My very sarcastic post was merely a response to Simkins initial question of "What did Stalin do that was actually bad" and I thought that was evident. That said, I could have inserted a smiley face to consecrate the meaning behind my quote.

And by no way was that trolling, understanding my sarcastic post one sees I was directly responding to the question as discussed above.
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"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2010, 12:40:59 PM »

I cannot believe anyone on this forum would actually believe I am stupid enough to actually think Stalin didn't kill anyone. My very sarcastic post was merely a response to Simkins initial question of "What did Stalin do that was actually bad" and I thought that was evident. That said, I could have inserted a smiley face to consecrate the meaning behind my quote.

And by no way was that trolling, understanding my sarcastic post one sees I was directly responding to the question as discussed above.

Very sorry to misunderstand you!  Extremely so.  With all the stupidity that I have read in this forum lately, I sometimes do not know who is joking and who actually believes their own BS.  Saying that Stalin did not kill anyone is slightly less sane than saying that everyone who does not believe in the History of Ukraine according to H is being paid by Moscow, and anyone who pronouces o as an e is intententionally insulting a nation.  I'm very glad to see that you are joking.  Unfortunately, the other's don't seem to be.  Problem is, my check from Putin seems to have gotten lost in the mail Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2010, 12:58:05 AM »

I cannot believe anyone on this forum would actually believe I am stupid enough to actually think Stalin didn't kill anyone. My very sarcastic post was merely a response to Simkins initial question of "What did Stalin do that was actually bad" and I thought that was evident. That said, I could have inserted a smiley face to consecrate the meaning behind my quote.

And by no way was that trolling, understanding my sarcastic post one sees I was directly responding to the question as discussed above.

Very sorry to misunderstand you!  Extremely so.  With all the stupidity that I have read in this forum lately, I sometimes do not know who is joking and who actually believes their own BS.  Saying that Stalin did not kill anyone is slightly less sane than saying that everyone who does not believe in the History of Ukraine according to H is being paid by Moscow, and anyone who pronouces o as an e is intententionally insulting a nation.  I'm very glad to see that you are joking.  Unfortunately, the other's don't seem to be.  Problem is, my check from Putin seems to have gotten lost in the mail Smiley

No worries brate. Well to be fair, I think what I said is much less sane than the example you provided, but note taken Wink.
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Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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