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Author Topic: Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix  (Read 9620 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2010, 10:52:23 PM »

It has more bearing on the nature of redemption if you assume the traditional Latin view of original sin.


But what bearing does it have on your salvation?

If we do not recognize the Latin perspective on original sin but only the Eastern view that is commonly called "ancestral sin", it is true, I don't see how the Immaculate Conception would be fundamental to the Christian salvation story.
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« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2010, 10:52:23 PM »

If one captured a man in a cage so that another could stab him to death, would you call him who captured him "co-slayer"? Obviously he was not literally involved in the slaying of the man, though he certainly helped to provide the condition under which he could be slain. I think under this same reasoning, Mary acting to help provide the conditions under which God would accomplish redemption does not logically make her co-redemptrix. She likewise is not literally involved in the actual act of our redemption.

Correct me if I'm wrong here?
I totally see what you are saying, and this is the main reason why I am glad the Catholic Church has not defined co-redemptrix as a dogma. Because when we say "co-redemptrix" we do not mean equal, but the majority of those outside of the Catholic Church will think that is what we mean since that is the standard use of the prefix "co." Because of this it would create more confusion. This is the complete opposite of what a dogma should do, which is to bring clarity.

I don't know it is so much of an issue of equality as it is an issue of what we mean by redemption. Generally what I understand redemption to mean is that act of God by which we receive sanctifying grace and are restored from the corruptions of the Fall. There is a certain sense in which we have to co-operate with this reality to bring it to completion and fruition, but I don't believe that anyone is actually involved in our sanctification by grace except God.
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« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2010, 10:52:23 PM »


I was taking that into account Mary. I don't see how Mary's participation in bringing about the conditions that would make redemption possible means that she actually is involved in redemption along with Christ.

Then you don't believe that all of us participate in Christ's redemptive acts either, right?

M.





In some sense I would be willing to say that some actions of our own are necessary for redemption to be completed; it requires our co-operation; but I would tend to view this as providing the conditions necessary for God to sanctify us, not as an actual part of our sanctification.
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« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2010, 10:27:10 AM »

If one captured a man in a cage so that another could stab him to death, would you call him who captured him "co-slayer"? Obviously he was not literally involved in the slaying of the man, though he certainly helped to provide the condition under which he could be slain. I think under this same reasoning, Mary acting to help provide the conditions under which God would accomplish redemption does not logically make her co-redemptrix. She likewise is not literally involved in the actual act of our redemption.

Correct me if I'm wrong here?

Well, consider the Great and Holy Thursday liturgy in Eastern Orthodoxy. The prayers include reference to "the swarm of deicides, the lawless people of the Jews"

BTW, I'm one of those who do not think Co-Redemptrix should be made a dogma, because pastorally it would be too difficult right now to prevent misconceptions arising from the term. However, I certainly do believe in Our Lady's role in the Lord's plan of redemption.
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« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2010, 01:10:05 PM »


I was taking that into account Mary. I don't see how Mary's participation in bringing about the conditions that would make redemption possible means that she actually is involved in redemption along with Christ.

Then you don't believe that all of us participate in Christ's redemptive acts either, right?

M.





In some sense I would be willing to say that some actions of our own are necessary for redemption to be completed; it requires our co-operation; but I would tend to view this as providing the conditions necessary for God to sanctify us, not as an actual part of our sanctification.

Absolutely!!  And seriously this is how the Church would see our actions and the actions of the Mother of God.  In participation, in co-operation, as an act of the human will in love.

Are there people out in the world who would take this to an extreme?  I don't know at the moment.  It would not shock me but I tend not to turn my attention in that direction because there are plenty of legitimate texts and teachings to keep me busy for this life into the next.

But what you have said here seems very agreeable to me.

M.
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« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2010, 02:05:19 PM »

BTW, I'm one of those who do not think Co-Redemptrix should be made a dogma, because pastorally it would be too difficult right now to prevent misconceptions arising from the term. However, I certainly do believe in Our Lady's role in the Lord's plan of redemption.
Agreed.
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« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2010, 02:56:57 PM »



BTW, I'm one of those who do not think Co-Redemptrix should be made a dogma....
What if it were made dogma?
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« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2010, 03:39:13 PM »



BTW, I'm one of those who do not think Co-Redemptrix should be made a dogma....
What if it were made dogma?

I'm no Protstant.I would obey and seek to educate people about the actual meaning of the term.
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« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2010, 03:57:49 PM »

I think one thing we need to do is avoid dogmatizing anything about our saints other than Christ.

The other thing is when thinking about a title for a saint, that if possible that same title can be given to us, even if it be in an abstract sense, so as to emulate the saint in some way.

With that being said, the way Catholics explain the Co-Redemtrx to me didn't seem to contradict my faith.  In the Coptic Church we praise the Virgin Theotokos as "the salvation of our father Adam."  This is quite provocative terminology, but this terminology should never be dogmatized, because this is an abstract and poetic sense of understanding the Theotokos, not literal.  It is why I find the Immaculate Conception misunderstood, since both the Orthodox and the Catholics consider the Theotokos as pure and undefiled, but Catholics seem to take it a step further in my opinion as soon as it was dogmatized.

My two cents.
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« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2010, 04:36:11 PM »


I was taking that into account Mary. I don't see how Mary's participation in bringing about the conditions that would make redemption possible means that she actually is involved in redemption along with Christ.

Then you don't believe that all of us participate in Christ's redemptive acts either, right?

M.





In some sense I would be willing to say that some actions of our own are necessary for redemption to be completed; it requires our co-operation; but I would tend to view this as providing the conditions necessary for God to sanctify us, not as an actual part of our sanctification.

Absolutely!!  And seriously this is how the Church would see our actions and the actions of the Mother of God.  In participation, in co-operation, as an act of the human will in love.

Are there people out in the world who would take this to an extreme?  I don't know at the moment.  It would not shock me but I tend not to turn my attention in that direction because there are plenty of legitimate texts and teachings to keep me busy for this life into the next.

But what you have said here seems very agreeable to me.

M.

Then it would appear that yet again (as we found with the filioque) we essentially agree on our understanding of the faith but not in what doctrines properly express that faith.
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« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2010, 04:36:11 PM »

It is why I find the Immaculate Conception misunderstood, since both the Orthodox and the Catholics consider the Theotokos as pure and undefiled, but Catholics seem to take it a step further in my opinion as soon as it was dogmatized.

I hate to get off topic here, but I feel it is very important to point this out: most Eastern Christians believe that Mary was born with ancestral sin, i.e. the cursed condition of lacking perfect communion with God and sanctifying grace, whereas the Romanists believe that she was not.
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« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2010, 04:38:35 PM »

It is why I find the Immaculate Conception misunderstood, since both the Orthodox and the Catholics consider the Theotokos as pure and undefiled, but Catholics seem to take it a step further in my opinion as soon as it was dogmatized.

I hate to get off topic here, but I feel it is very important to point this out: most Eastern Christians believe that Mary was born with ancestral sin, i.e. the cursed condition of lacking perfect communion with God and sanctifying grace, whereas the Romanists believe that she was not.

Well, no. If Mary died, she would be saved. No 'cursed condition'. Ancestral sin was not done by her.
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« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2010, 06:29:37 PM »

It is why I find the Immaculate Conception misunderstood, since both the Orthodox and the Catholics consider the Theotokos as pure and undefiled, but Catholics seem to take it a step further in my opinion as soon as it was dogmatized.

I hate to get off topic here, but I feel it is very important to point this out: most Eastern Christians believe that Mary was born with ancestral sin, i.e. the cursed condition of lacking perfect communion with God and sanctifying grace, whereas the Romanists believe that she was not.

Is it really that important, since obviously the question remains a matter of differing opinion in the Orthodox churches?
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« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2010, 06:32:47 PM »

Well, no. If Mary died, she would be saved. No 'cursed condition'. Ancestral sin was not done by her.

So at what point was she preserved from "ancestral" sin? At her conception or at her birth?
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« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2010, 06:51:44 PM »

It is why I find the Immaculate Conception misunderstood, since both the Orthodox and the Catholics consider the Theotokos as pure and undefiled, but Catholics seem to take it a step further in my opinion as soon as it was dogmatized.

I hate to get off topic here, but I feel it is very important to point this out: most Eastern Christians believe that Mary was born with ancestral sin, i.e. the cursed condition of lacking perfect communion with God and sanctifying grace, whereas the Romanists believe that she was not.

I apologize if I wasn't clear.  I meant to say that I felt messages like "pure" or "undefiled" makes me think that Catholics seem to misunderstand most Church fathers, in my personal opinion.
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« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2010, 09:49:06 PM »

Should we make a new immaculate conception thread?  laugh
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« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2010, 01:27:22 AM »

Well, no. If Mary died, she would be saved.

No one who died before the coming of Christ was saved.

No 'cursed condition'.

Sounds like Pelagianism to me.

Ancestral sin was not done by her.

The problem here is that you are thinking of "sin" as simply an act, when in fact it refers to any way in which we miss the mark, even in the condition of our being. Because of the sin of Adam, he and Eve lost communion with God and sanctifying grace, and as a consequence, even so did all of his descendants. Therefore, all of us, in our being just when it begins, are already missing the mark until we are restored at Chrismation to communion with God, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and sanctifying grace.
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« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2010, 01:27:23 AM »

It is why I find the Immaculate Conception misunderstood, since both the Orthodox and the Catholics consider the Theotokos as pure and undefiled, but Catholics seem to take it a step further in my opinion as soon as it was dogmatized.

I hate to get off topic here, but I feel it is very important to point this out: most Eastern Christians believe that Mary was born with ancestral sin, i.e. the cursed condition of lacking perfect communion with God and sanctifying grace, whereas the Romanists believe that she was not.

Is it really that important, since obviously the question remains a matter of differing opinion in the Orthodox churches?

It's important that people not be led to believe that Eastern Christians overall believe that Mary was rendered without need of sanctification at the time of her conception.
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« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2010, 01:27:23 AM »

Well, no. If Mary died, she would be saved. No 'cursed condition'. Ancestral sin was not done by her.

So at what point was she preserved from "ancestral" sin? At her conception or at her birth?

There is no preservation. That verb only applies to someone who was never afflicted with the fallen nature. But Mary was. So "when was she restored" is a more accurate way to think of it. And at that, I would say that she was restored from our (sanctifying) graceless state when the Logos came to dwell within her.
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« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2010, 01:27:24 AM »

It is why I find the Immaculate Conception misunderstood, since both the Orthodox and the Catholics consider the Theotokos as pure and undefiled, but Catholics seem to take it a step further in my opinion as soon as it was dogmatized.

I hate to get off topic here, but I feel it is very important to point this out: most Eastern Christians believe that Mary was born with ancestral sin, i.e. the cursed condition of lacking perfect communion with God and sanctifying grace, whereas the Romanists believe that she was not.

I apologize if I wasn't clear.  I meant to say that I felt messages like "pure" or "undefiled" makes me think that Catholics seem to misunderstand most Church fathers, in my personal opinion.

Oh, ok. That makes more sense Mina.  Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2010, 04:30:58 AM »

Well, no. If Mary died, she would be saved.

No one who died before the coming of Christ was saved.

No 'cursed condition'.

Sounds like Pelagianism to me.

Ancestral sin was not done by her.

The problem here is that you are thinking of "sin" as simply an act, when in fact it refers to any way in which we miss the mark, even in the condition of our being. Because of the sin of Adam, he and Eve lost communion with God and sanctifying grace, and as a consequence, even so did all of his descendants. Therefore, all of us, in our being just when it begins, are already missing the mark until we are restored at Chrismation to communion with God, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and sanctifying grace.
2 Kings 2:1
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« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2010, 04:37:02 AM »

This might be a better quote:
 2Kings 2:11- And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven
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« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2010, 02:15:50 PM »

Should we make a new immaculate conception thread?  laugh
There are about 531 of them. LOL
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« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2010, 02:18:41 PM »



BTW, I'm one of those who do not think Co-Redemptrix should be made a dogma....
What if it were made dogma?

I'm no Protstant.I would obey and seek to educate people about the actual meaning of the term.
I second this. The content of the dogma of the Co-Redemptrix is orthodox and valid. The term itself may be confusing to non-latin speaking ears. Thus, though it is true, it might not be prudent to raise the teaching to the level of dogma. BUT, if it was raised to that level, I would work to clarify the teaching for those who did not understand it.
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« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2010, 02:38:18 PM »

Mary has an important role in Salvation..  Due to her strong relationship and bond with Christ we can say that she is a means through which grace is bestowed.

 
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« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2010, 02:41:57 PM »

Mary has an importan role in our Salvation.. Due to her strong relationship with Christ we can say that she is mediator of graces..

 
And that is one of the title that is traditional ascribed to Mary by Catholics, "Mediator of Graces". Though its not on a dogmatic level.
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« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2010, 02:45:40 PM »

Mary has an importan role in our Salvation.. Due to her strong relationship with Christ we can say that she is mediator of graces..

 
And that is one of the title that is traditional ascribed to Mary by Catholics, "Mediator of Graces". Though its not on a dogmatic level.

I have a feeling that for you it kind of has a different conotation.And I think that for you she is "Mediator of all graces"..
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« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2010, 02:49:45 PM »

Mary has an importan role in our Salvation.. Due to her strong relationship with Christ we can say that she is mediator of graces..

 
And that is one of the title that is traditional ascribed to Mary by Catholics, "Mediator of Graces". Though its not on a dogmatic level.

I have a feeling that for you it kind of has a different conotation.And I think that for you she is "Mediator of all graces"..
Yes, some will take it as far as "Mediatrix of all Graces."
I think this would be demonstrated in the following way.

All Grace comes from Christ.
Christ comes to us through Mary.
Therefore, Mary is a Mediatrix of all Graces.

Keep in mind that this has not been elevated to the level of dogma either.

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« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2010, 02:52:23 PM »

btw I modified my original post..
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« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2010, 03:42:30 PM »

btw I modified my original post..

I saw that. It was fine the way it was. Don't worry, saying "mediatrix of graces" doesn't turn you into a Catholic. Wink
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« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2010, 03:53:03 PM »

Keep in mind that this has not been elevated to the level of dogma either.

So are Catholics free to ignore doctrines that has not been officially and infallibly codified as a dogma?
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« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2010, 05:57:33 PM »

Keep in mind that this has not been elevated to the level of dogma either.

So are Catholics free to ignore doctrines that has not been officially and infallibly codified as a dogma?
Well, "ignore" is such a strong word.
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« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2010, 06:00:35 PM »

Keep in mind that this has not been elevated to the level of dogma either.

So are Catholics free to ignore doctrines that has not been officially and infallibly codified as a dogma?
Such a silly thing to say. Are you free to ignore things in your Church that are not officially dogma? One example might be Mary's sinlessness.
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« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2010, 03:47:19 AM »

Keep in mind that this has not been elevated to the level of dogma either.

So are Catholics free to ignore doctrines that has not been officially and infallibly codified as a dogma?
Such a silly thing to say. Are you free to ignore things in your Church that are not officially dogma? One example might be Mary's sinlessness.

Nope, and that's why I asked. What does it matter even though it isn't officially proclaimed as a dogma since it seems to be part of RC tradition? In Orthodoxy it doesn't really matter so much even if something is not officially proclaimed as a dogma so I don't understand why Catholics seem to have such an emphasis on dogmas.

Well, "ignore" is such a strong word.

Well, English is not my native tongue so I don't necessarily understand these kind of things.
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« Reply #79 on: September 01, 2010, 09:45:50 AM »

I don't think her sinlessness can be dogma really.  The only dogma worth mentioning for the Virgin is Theotokos, because the one born from her is truly God.  But all things which describe the Virgin alone should not be proclaimed.

I remember having an online discussion with a Catholic convert.  If I can find the exact quote, I'd give it, but pretty much, as a convert he was taught that dogmas have different degrees of importance.  So the immaculate conception is not as important as other dogmas in the Catholic Church, and if the person has a hard time believing it, they can still take the convert.  I can imagine, if true in his case, it can't be true everywhere in the Catholic Church, no?
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« Reply #80 on: September 01, 2010, 10:54:21 AM »

Keep in mind that this has not been elevated to the level of dogma either.

So are Catholics free to ignore doctrines that has not been officially and infallibly codified as a dogma?
Such a silly thing to say. Are you free to ignore things in your Church that are not officially dogma? One example might be Mary's sinlessness.

Nope, and that's why I asked. What does it matter even though it isn't officially proclaimed as a dogma since it seems to be part of RC tradition? In Orthodoxy it doesn't really matter so much even if something is not officially proclaimed as a dogma so I don't understand why Catholics seem to have such an emphasis on dogmas.

I think that's a good point. The faith is one unified whole. We have no need for endlessly defining things, because the entire life of the Church tells us what we need to know. Perhaps this betrays the Catholic Church's tendency to elevate the CCC and legal codes so much that they are practically, unto themselves, the whole of tradition. That's just not how Orthodoxy works.

The Dormition has never been legally defined as a dogma, for example. So if you take that in a legal code framework, you can be Orthodox and not believe in the Dormition. But that would be insane, because we fast for 2 weeks in August in preparation for the Dormition. We have services for the Dormition—which, in their full expression, they are almost identical to the Paschal services! We have hymns about it, and icons of it. To disbelieve the Dormition, you must toss out all of that other stuff as well. You would cease being Orthodox if you ignored the Dormition.

Yet it's not a dogma.

Orthodoxy has no need to dogmatize all these things, because their necessity can be communicated in other ways. The whole of the Church's life contains the teachings, not just canon law.
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« Reply #81 on: September 01, 2010, 12:36:55 PM »

^ In answer to the above questions, No I don't think a person can ignore the content of the teachings on the Coredemptrix or the Mediatrix because the content is true. However, I don't think a person needs to accept the idea that these titles themselves are necessarily the most prudent words that can be used to express the content of the teaching.
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« Reply #82 on: September 01, 2010, 01:14:53 PM »


I think that's a good point. The faith is one unified whole. We have no need for endlessly defining things, because the entire life of the Church tells us what we need to know. Perhaps this betrays the Catholic Church's tendency to elevate the CCC and legal codes so much that they are practically, unto themselves, the whole of tradition. That's just not how Orthodoxy works.

The Catholic Church works the same way that Orthodoxy works in terms of the faith being a unified whole.  In fact it is a very sad thing to see people talking about something that is so close to them, yet doing all they can to make it different, or make themselves different.

Mary

 
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« Reply #83 on: September 01, 2010, 02:52:33 PM »


I think that's a good point. The faith is one unified whole. We have no need for endlessly defining things, because the entire life of the Church tells us what we need to know. Perhaps this betrays the Catholic Church's tendency to elevate the CCC and legal codes so much that they are practically, unto themselves, the whole of tradition. That's just not how Orthodoxy works.

The Catholic Church works the same way that Orthodoxy works in terms of the faith being a unified whole.  In fact it is a very sad thing to see people talking about something that is so close to them, yet doing all they can to make it different, or make themselves different.

Mary

 

I know two priests, both former Catholics who converted to Orthodoxy in adulthood (and one of them was a Catholic priest), who are quite adamant that the difference between the two churches in this regard is stark.

But hey, at least you don't have bishops running around saying the Resurrection didn't happen, like the Episcopalians have. I appreciate that Catholics see the faith as one unit and not generally up for dispute, except maybe a few tertiary things here and there.
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« Reply #84 on: September 01, 2010, 04:39:38 PM »


I think that's a good point. The faith is one unified whole. We have no need for endlessly defining things, because the entire life of the Church tells us what we need to know. Perhaps this betrays the Catholic Church's tendency to elevate the CCC and legal codes so much that they are practically, unto themselves, the whole of tradition. That's just not how Orthodoxy works.

The Catholic Church works the same way that Orthodoxy works in terms of the faith being a unified whole.  In fact it is a very sad thing to see people talking about something that is so close to them, yet doing all they can to make it different, or make themselves different.

Mary

 

I know two priests, both former Catholics who converted to Orthodoxy in adulthood (and one of them was a Catholic priest), who are quite adamant that the difference between the two churches in this regard is stark.

But hey, at least you don't have bishops running around saying the Resurrection didn't happen, like the Episcopalians have. I appreciate that Catholics see the faith as one unit and not generally up for dispute, except maybe a few tertiary things here and there.

I know many priests, still Catholic, who say the darnedest things.  I know some Orthodox priests who also say some things that make one go ..."hmmmm".   Smiley....So I tend not to worry too much about all that.

But yes.  Catholic teaching is by the power of the Holy Spirit whole and integral.  You cannot pull it apart in bits and pieces and get anywhere in terms of the fullness of understanding...and you can never grasp that fullness with obedience, humility and prayer.

Thanks for you kind response.

M.

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« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:56 AM »

Well, no. If Mary died, she would be saved.

No one who died before the coming of Christ was saved.

No 'cursed condition'.

Sounds like Pelagianism to me.

Ancestral sin was not done by her.

The problem here is that you are thinking of "sin" as simply an act, when in fact it refers to any way in which we miss the mark, even in the condition of our being. Because of the sin of Adam, he and Eve lost communion with God and sanctifying grace, and as a consequence, even so did all of his descendants. Therefore, all of us, in our being just when it begins, are already missing the mark until we are restored at Chrismation to communion with God, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and sanctifying grace.
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If you're thinking that Elijah went up to the High Heaven where the Lord Christ went at His Ascension and Saint Mary went at her Assumption, I'm pretty sure that you're misinterpreting it:

"No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man." (John 3:13)
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« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:57 AM »

Mary has an importan role in our Salvation.. Due to her strong relationship with Christ we can say that she is mediator of graces..

 
And that is one of the title that is traditional ascribed to Mary by Catholics, "Mediator of Graces". Though its not on a dogmatic level.

I have a feeling that for you it kind of has a different conotation.And I think that for you she is "Mediator of all graces"..
Yes, some will take it as far as "Mediatrix of all Graces."
I think this would be demonstrated in the following way.

All Grace comes from Christ.
Christ comes to us through Mary.
Therefore, Mary is a Mediatrix of all Graces.

Keep in mind that this has not been elevated to the level of dogma either.



More literally, Mary is merely the mediator of the Mediator. She is not a mediator of grace in the sense that Christ is.
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« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:57 AM »

I don't think her sinlessness can be dogma really.  The only dogma worth mentioning for the Virgin is Theotokos, because the one born from her is truly God.  But all things which describe the Virgin alone should not be proclaimed.

Including her perpetual virginity?
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« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2010, 07:36:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
The schools had already proved one or two points which need never have bee discussed again. In essence, religion was love; in no case was it logic. Reason can reach nothing except through the senses; God, by essence, cannot be reached through the senses; if He is to be known at all, he must be known by contact of spirit with spirit, essence with essence; directly; by emotion, by ecstasy, by absorption of our existence in his; by substitution of His Spirit for ours. The world had no need to wait five hundred years longer in order to hear this same result reaffirmed by Pascal. Saint Francis of Assisi had declared it loudly enough. The Virgin had asserted it in tones more gentle, but anyone may still see how convincing, who STOPS for a moment to FEEL the emotion that lifted Her wonderful Chartres spire up to God. The Virgin, indeed made all easy, for it was little enough she cared for reason or logic. She cared for Her Baby, a simple matter, which ANY woman could do and understand easily. That, and the Grace of God made Her the Queen of Heaven. The Trinity has its source in Her, totius Trinitatis nobile Triclinium, and She was maternity. She was also poetry and art. In the bankruptcy of reason, She alone was real."
Mont Saint Michel and Chartres by Henry Adams [/quote]
(this not not cut and paste, I typed this by hand from the book  Smiley )

Quote
There She actually is, not in symbol or in fancy, but in person, descending on her errands of mercy and listening to each one of us, as her miracles prove, or satisfying our prayers merely by her presence which calms our excitement as that of a mother calms her child. She is there as Queen, not merely as intercessor, and her power is such that to her the difference between us earthly beings is nothing. Her quiet, masculine strength enchants us most.. to peasants and beggars and people in trouble, this sense of her power and calm is better than active sympathy. People who suffer beyond the formulas of expression, who are crushed into silence and beyond pain, want no display of emotion, no bleeding heart, no weeping at the foot of the Cross, no hysterics, no phrases! They want to see God, and to know that He is watching over His own..Each of them that has looked up to Her great window and has felt actual certainty as though they saw with their own eyes, there in heaven while they looked on, their own lost ones playing with the Christ child at the Virgin's knee, as much at home there as the Saints, and much more then any kings of the earth! Before rising from their knees, everyone of these people will have bent down and kissed the stone pavement in gratitude for Mary's mercy. The earth, they say, is a sorry place and the best of it is bad enough, no doubt, even for the earthly Queens.. but there is Mary in heaven who sees and hears as we see and hear, and who keeps them all till we come! So we can wait in patience, more or less! Saints and Prophets and martyrs are very well, and Christ is very sublime and just, but Mary knows.. [/qoute]
Mont Saint Michel and Chartres by Henry Adams
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« Reply #89 on: December 20, 2011, 12:41:41 AM »

CONTEXT NOTE: The following posts originally submitted here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41224.0.html  -PtA



It is an authentic teaching of Catholic tradition,whether or not it is considered to be a teaching from scripture. The Catholic Church and and Orthodox churches don't just  cull their doctrines from scripture through Catholic tradition,they also teach doctrines that have been passed on from the apostles and ancient theologians which are not found in scripture. Some Catholic doctrines are confirmed by visitations of Jesus and ary to saints. Instead of just criticizing the doctrine based on scripture and Greek and Eastern tradition,you should consider whether Mary really appeared to St. Bernadette and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception".


Eagerly awaiting the day when the Lady reappears and says "I am the Quasi-Incarnation."  

More likely Father, it will be "I am the Co-Redeemer,"  "you have offended me and need to make reparations or calamities will strike," that sort of thing.

Mary is indeed co-redeemer with Christ. When that is proclaimed as a Church dogma,it will bring great grace upon the Church.

http://fifthmariandogma.com/

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/MEDIATRI.HTM

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