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Author Topic: Can a dog receive communion?  (Read 5462 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jetavan
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« on: July 23, 2010, 11:53:45 AM »

Quote
St. Peter’s Anglican Church has long been known as an open and inclusive place.

So open, it seems, they won’t turn anyone away. Not even a dog.

That’s how a blessed canine ended up receiving communion from interim priest Rev. Marguerite Rea during a morning service the last Sunday in June.

According to those in attendance at the historical church at 188 Carlton St. in downtown Toronto, it was a spontaneous gesture, one intended to make both the dog and its owner – a first timer at the church — feel welcomed. But at least one parishioner saw the act as an affront to the rules and regulations of the Anglican Church. He filed a complaint with the reverend and with the Anglican Diocese of Toronto about the incident – and has since left the church.

“I wrote back to the parishioner that it is not the policy of the Anglican Church to give communion to animals,” said Bishop Patrick Yu, the area bishop of York-Scarborough responsible for St. Peter’s, who received the complaint in early July. “I can see why people would be offended. It is a strange and shocking thing, and I have never heard of it happening before.

“I think the reverend was overcome by what I consider a misguided gesture of welcoming.”
....
Yu said when he spoke to Rev. Rea, she apologized for what she had done and said she would not do it again.

“Unless there is any further evidence that she is giving communion to animals, the matter is closed . . . we are after all, in the forgiveness and repair business,” he said.
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2010, 11:57:22 AM »

Sounds like they're barking up the wrong tree.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 11:57:49 AM by theistgal » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2010, 12:27:14 PM »

Only an Orthodog!
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2010, 01:59:33 PM »

Only an Orthodog!
I hope making a quip about a Heterodog doesn't violate the moratorium on discussing you-know-what!
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2010, 02:17:18 PM »

I saw that story earlier and didn’t blog it because it wouldn’t be fair. It was between the offending minister and her bishop and he handled it fine ('Never do that again!'). Those things happen. Around here the Episcopalians did the right thing: legend has it a blueblood left a parish in a huff because it wouldn’t bury her horse on church grounds.

Of course the answer is dogs have no original sin on their souls - they're not responsible for what they do, unlike us - so they don't need sacraments.

Ecce panis angelorum,
Factus cibus viatorum,
Vere panis filiorum,
Non mittendus canibus.


Behold the bread of angels,
Made food for wayfarers,
Truly bread for the children,
Not to be given to the dogs.
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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2010, 02:35:14 PM »

Only an Orthodog!
I hope making a quip about a Heterodog doesn't violate the moratorium on discussing you-know-what!

I just figured you were talking about the current Pope (sometimes called the "German Shepherd").

You know - Heterodox?  Heterodog?

[cue crickets]

OK, I'm done!   Grin
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2010, 02:44:42 PM »

I saw that story earlier and didn’t blog it because it wouldn’t be fair. It was between the offending minister and her bishop and he handled it fine ('Never do that again!'). Those things happen. Around here the Episcopalians did the right thing: legend has it a blueblood left a parish in a huff because it wouldn’t bury her horse on church grounds.

Of course the answer is dogs have no original sin on their souls - they're not responsible for what they do, unlike us - so they don't need sacraments.

Ecce panis angelorum,
Factus cibus viatorum,
Vere panis filiorum,
Non mittendus canibus.


Behold the bread of angels,
Made food for wayfarers,
Truly bread for the children,
Not to be given to the dogs.
LOL. What a wit.
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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2010, 03:05:09 PM »

I saw that story earlier and didn’t blog it because it wouldn’t be fair. It was between the offending minister and her bishop and he handled it fine ('Never do that again!'). Those things happen. Around here the Episcopalians did the right thing: legend has it a blueblood left a parish in a huff because it wouldn’t bury her horse on church grounds.

Of course the answer is dogs have no original sin on their souls - they're not responsible for what they do, unlike us - so they don't need sacraments.

Ecce panis angelorum,
Factus cibus viatorum,
Vere panis filiorum,
Non mittendus canibus.


Behold the bread of angels,
Made food for wayfarers,
Truly bread for the children,
Not to be given to the dogs.
I don't argue for Canine Communion, but:

"She said, 'Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.'" -- Matthew 15:27
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 03:08:03 PM »

I saw that story earlier and didn’t blog it because it wouldn’t be fair. It was between the offending minister and her bishop and he handled it fine ('Never do that again!'). Those things happen. Around here the Episcopalians did the right thing: legend has it a blueblood left a parish in a huff because it wouldn’t bury her horse on church grounds.

Of course the answer is dogs have no original sin on their souls - they're not responsible for what they do, unlike us - so they don't need sacraments.

Ecce panis angelorum,
Factus cibus viatorum,
Vere panis filiorum,
Non mittendus canibus.


Behold the bread of angels,
Made food for wayfarers,
Truly bread for the children,
Not to be given to the dogs.

I'm not arguing for dog communion, but if communion is the "bread of angels," wouldn't that indicate that it is not only for those stained by original sin?
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2010, 03:08:25 PM »

I saw that story earlier and didn’t blog it because it wouldn’t be fair. It was between the offending minister and her bishop and he handled it fine ('Never do that again!'). Those things happen. Around here the Episcopalians did the right thing: legend has it a blueblood left a parish in a huff because it wouldn’t bury her horse on church grounds.

Of course the answer is dogs have no original sin on their souls - they're not responsible for what they do, unlike us - so they don't need sacraments.

Ecce panis angelorum,
Factus cibus viatorum,
Vere panis filiorum,
Non mittendus canibus.


Behold the bread of angels,
Made food for wayfarers,
Truly bread for the children,
Not to be given to the dogs.
I don't argue for Canine Communion, but:

"She said, 'Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.'" -- Matthew 15:27
But then I wouldn't equate Communion with crumbs, either.
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2010, 03:11:10 PM »

But then I wouldn't equate Communion with crumbs, either.

Ah, but St. Ephraim the Syrian (d. AD 373) wrote:  "One particle from [the Eucharistic host's] crumbs is able to sanctify thousands and thousands, and is sufficient to afford life to those who eat of it" (Homilies 4:4)!   Cool
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2010, 03:19:05 PM »

I'm not arguing for dog communion, but if communion is the "bread of angels," wouldn't that indicate that it is not only for those stained by original sin?

Interesting. A looser translation might be 'the bread of heaven'. I think the actual meaning is the bread, having been turned into God, is as pure as the angels. It's poetic.

Also, an angel has an intellect like God and we do. Dogs don't. (Again they're not responsible for their actions; we and angels are for ours.)
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2010, 03:28:00 PM »

I saw that story earlier and didn’t blog it because it wouldn’t be fair. It was between the offending minister and her bishop and he handled it fine ('Never do that again!'). Those things happen. Around here the Episcopalians did the right thing: legend has it a blueblood left a parish in a huff because it wouldn’t bury her horse on church grounds.

Of course the answer is dogs have no original sin on their souls - they're not responsible for what they do, unlike us - so they don't need sacraments.

Ecce panis angelorum,
Factus cibus viatorum,
Vere panis filiorum,
Non mittendus canibus.


Behold the bread of angels,
Made food for wayfarers,
Truly bread for the children,
Not to be given to the dogs.

I'm not arguing for dog communion, but if communion is the "bread of angels," wouldn't that indicate that it is not only for those stained by original sin?
Since angels cannot eat, what good would it do them?
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2010, 04:15:14 PM »

Ahh, yes, the cartoonification of practical theology, a much underappreciated discipline, yet with so much impact on our culture.  Only two more letters and nine ranks of angels becomes ca-nine ranks of angels.   But perhaps that is where this clergyperson went astray.  Perhaps, being convinced by Don Bluth's film, she thought that surely the bread of heaven is fit for dogs since all dogs go to heaven.  It would be convincing if we had not already found out from Hanna-Barbera (or was it Chuck Jones?) decades earlier that this can't be true, that at least one dog did not make it to heaven, Spike, as he waits in the fiery pit to meet Tom the cat and put him in a molten kettle in one of the T&J episodes.    But that is what happens when you focus in on modern aspects of cartoonified theology and ignore the long tradition that preceded it.  
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2010, 04:23:57 PM »

There was, for a time at least, in the Medieval West, a dog who was made a saint.
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2010, 04:29:06 PM »

Isn't this more offensive to the dog, seeing as how dogs are not "sinners" in need of direct mediation but rather victims of humanities fallen nature? Cheesy It seems to me that animals don't need to be saved in the same manner we do, not because they don't matter, but because they did nothing wrong to begin with! Smiley

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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2010, 04:29:29 PM »

There was, for a time at least, in the Medieval West, a dog who was made a saint.

Source? Please? As I've never heard this and being skeptical by nature, I doubt something so absurd! Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2010, 04:30:58 PM »

That was a local cultus in a French town: 'St' Guinefort.

Quote
Never recognized officially by Catholic Church (of course); cult persisted until 1930s.
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2010, 05:52:14 PM »

Aww, the poor little doggy - sounds like he had a "ruff" time!!!
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2010, 06:00:23 PM »

You have to admire their dogged determination.
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2010, 06:56:01 PM »

It would be convincing if we had not already found out from Hanna-Barbera (or was it Chuck Jones?) decades earlier that this can't be true, that at least one dog did not make it to heaven, Spike, as he waits in the fiery pit to meet Tom the cat and put him in a molten kettle in one of the T&J episodes.    But that is what happens when you focus in on modern aspects of cartoonified theology and ignore the long tradition that preceded it.  

Tom and Jerry was a production of Hanna and Barbera.
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2010, 06:56:34 PM »

You have to admire their dogged determination.
What is it with these doggone bad jokes?
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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2010, 07:00:36 PM »

It would be convincing if we had not already found out from Hanna-Barbera (or was it Chuck Jones?) decades earlier that this can't be true, that at least one dog did not make it to heaven, Spike, as he waits in the fiery pit to meet Tom the cat and put him in a molten kettle in one of the T&J episodes.    But that is what happens when you focus in on modern aspects of cartoonified theology and ignore the long tradition that preceded it.  

Tom and Jerry was a production of Hanna and Barbera.

Yes, but later I believe it was chuck jones.  Not sure whether said episode was under them or under the era of chuck jones.
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2010, 07:04:42 PM »

There was, for a time at least, in the Medieval West, a dog who was made a saint.


"St. Christopher the Doghead"

Maybe not the same one, don't know.

I think Greek iconography depicts him with a horse head, though.
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2010, 07:19:25 PM »

It would be convincing if we had not already found out from Hanna-Barbera (or was it Chuck Jones?) decades earlier that this can't be true, that at least one dog did not make it to heaven, Spike, as he waits in the fiery pit to meet Tom the cat and put him in a molten kettle in one of the T&J episodes.    But that is what happens when you focus in on modern aspects of cartoonified theology and ignore the long tradition that preceded it.  

Tom and Jerry was a production of Hanna and Barbera.

Yes, but later I believe it was chuck jones.  Not sure whether said episode was under them or under the era of chuck jones.
Yeah, you're right. Wink

Is this the video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TePjyMd7JFo

Hanna and Barbera directed this one.
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2010, 07:55:45 PM »

There was, for a time at least, in the Medieval West, a dog who was made a saint.


"St. Christopher the Doghead"

Maybe not the same one, don't know.

I think Greek iconography depicts him with a horse head, though.

The iconographic depiction of St Christopher with a dog's head has been discussed more than once on this forum. Suffice to say that this is very wrong. Further answers can be found on the relevant threads.
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 08:18:12 PM »

Quote
Days later, the church and diocese received a complaint from one parishioner, who felt the church offended the sacred ritual. The bread and wine are meant to represent the body and blood of Jesus Christ and are only to be given to those who have been baptized.


Maybe she should have made sure the dog was baptized first.
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2010, 08:30:38 PM »

Well, I receive it. ...What was the question?
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2010, 08:56:01 PM »

Quote
Days later, the church and diocese received a complaint from one parishioner, who felt the church offended the sacred ritual. The bread and wine are meant to represent the body and blood of Jesus Christ and are only to be given to those who have been baptized.


Maybe she should have made sure the dog was baptized first.
I suppose that's easier than baptizing a cat. Tongue
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« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2010, 09:57:06 PM »

I saw that story earlier and didn’t blog it because it wouldn’t be fair. It was between the offending minister and her bishop and he handled it fine ('Never do that again!'). Those things happen. Around here the Episcopalians did the right thing: legend has it a blueblood left a parish in a huff because it wouldn’t bury her horse on church grounds.

Of course the answer is dogs have no original sin on their souls - they're not responsible for what they do, unlike us - so they don't need sacraments.

Ecce panis angelorum,
Factus cibus viatorum,
Vere panis filiorum,
Non mittendus canibus.


Behold the bread of angels,
Made food for wayfarers,
Truly bread for the children,
Not to be given to the dogs.
I don't argue for Canine Communion, but:

"She said, 'Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.'" -- Matthew 15:27



Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs



The dog saints thing is weird! Dogs smell funny. They are nice, but um, ... it is hard to explain.


R-r-r-r-r-egards.
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« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2010, 10:57:25 PM »

I saw that story earlier and didn’t blog it because it wouldn’t be fair. It was between the offending minister and her bishop and he handled it fine ('Never do that again!'). Those things happen. Around here the Episcopalians did the right thing: legend has it a blueblood left a parish in a huff because it wouldn’t bury her horse on church grounds.

Of course the answer is dogs have no original sin on their souls - they're not responsible for what they do, unlike us - so they don't need sacraments.

Ecce panis angelorum,
Factus cibus viatorum,
Vere panis filiorum,
Non mittendus canibus.


Behold the bread of angels,
Made food for wayfarers,
Truly bread for the children,
Not to be given to the dogs.
I don't argue for Canine Communion, but:

"She said, 'Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.'" -- Matthew 15:27



Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs



The dog saints thing is weird! Dogs smell funny. They are nice, but um, ... it is hard to explain.
Dogs eat weird things and aren't particularly modest about where they do their business.  Not to mention that they also like to roll around in stinky stuff, which explains partly why they smell funny.
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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2010, 11:19:54 PM »

Dogs eat weird things and aren't particularly modest about where they do their business.  Not to mention that they also like to roll around in stinky stuff, which explains partly why they smell funny.

True, but that's why you need to get a Border Collie!
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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2010, 01:21:37 AM »

Cats, with their cleanliness, grace and discretion, are quite superior to dogs. They are also the only critter allowed entry into an Orthodox church.  Kiss
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« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2010, 01:45:24 AM »

There was, for a time at least, in the Medieval West, a dog who was made a saint.


"St. Christopher the Doghead"

Maybe not the same one, don't know.

I think Greek iconography depicts him with a horse head, though.

The iconographic depiction of St Christopher with a dog's head has been discussed more than once on this forum. Suffice to say that this is very wrong. Further answers can be found on the relevant threads.

Any hints on how to find these threads? I looked up the words: saint, christopher, dog and icon individually, collectively and in mixed pairs, to no avail.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2010, 03:43:05 AM »

Cats, with their cleanliness, grace and discretion, are quite superior to dogs. They are also the only critter allowed entry into an Orthodox church.  Kiss
Then again, you probably haven't seen my brother's cats.  If the one-year-old is anything like what my brother's been saying about him, you probably wouldn't want him in church.  The cat has been picking fights with older cats since he was a kitten, and he has to eat outside if he decides to eat what he kills--damn good mouser, but he likes to eat his prey after killing it.  The cat reportedly ate a sparrow in the living room of my brother's trailer last summer and left a big mess of blood and feathers for my bro to clean up.

In short, this cat is truly a cat's cat.  Mean SOB, but my brother loves him. Grin
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 03:51:42 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2010, 04:17:15 AM »

We had persian a cat (long haired) that slept in his cat box. My brothers and I had to wear gloves to remove hangers on when we bathed him.
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2010, 05:13:51 AM »

Any hints on how to find these threads? I looked up the words: saint, christopher, dog and icon individually, collectively and in mixed pairs, to no avail.

Here are a couple of links:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17565.msg319796.html#msg319796

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18166.msg265264.html#msg265264

My contributions to those threads are drawn from a monograph on iconography I wrote several years ago. Here's an excerpt, which should clarify matters on this, and other images:

The story of the strong man ferrying travellers over the river on his back is of much later origin (probably 12thC), considering St Christopher of Lycia was martyred in about AD 250 under Emperor Decius. All paintings and images of Christopher carrying the Christ-child date from the second millennium AD, and are all of Western origin. There is no iconography of this saint in this type of portrayal prior to this; rather, he is portrayed as a warrior, which fits with the earlier story of his life as a soldier. St Ambrose of Milan wrote of the many thousands of pagans who were converted to Christianity by St Christopher.

How St Christopher came about to be portrayed with a dog's head is an unfortunate misunderstanding on the part of the iconographer who first painted him: St Christopher came from a region in Thessaly (northern Greece) called Kynoskephalai. This place-name means "dog-headed". So poor St Christopher was painted with a dog's head, where the iconographer mistakenly thought the name "dog-headed" referred to what the saint looked like, not where he came from. Other iconographers, unaware of this error, simply copied this form of portrayal.

There is also the story that St Christopher disfigured himself to detract from his handsomeness, lest any vanity cause him to stray from his life in Christ. This poses some problems in Orthodox thought and teaching, as self-mutilation, or the seeking of it, is generally regarded as wrong. However, irrespective of whether this story is true, it is not proper for an iconographer to portray such disfigurement in any saint. Icons are portrayals of a saint's spiritual reality, of a saint's perfected state in the eyes of God, and not of imperfections which illustrate mankind's fallen, imperfect state.

For example, a saint who wore spectacles during his earthly life should not be wearing them in icons. Examples include St John of Shanghai and San Francisco (1896-1966), Hieromartyr Benjamin of Petrograd (+1922), and St Luke the Surgeon of Simferopol (1876-1961). Another example is St Matrona of Moscow, another 20th C saint who was born blind. There are indeed many icons of her with her eyes closed (as they were in her earthly life, there are a number of photographs of her), however, the proper iconographic portrayal of her is with her eyes open. Though physically blind all her earthly life, by her life showed herself to be a model of spiritual illumination. Her physical eyes were useless, but her spiritual eyes were wide open. Thus she should be portrayed with her eyes open, to illustrate this spiritual reality.


Depicting St Christopher with a dog's head, or with an otherwise disfigured face in an icon, therefore, is quite wrong.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 05:14:42 AM by LBK » Logged
NorthernPines
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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2010, 10:08:37 AM »

Quote
Days later, the church and diocese received a complaint from one parishioner, who felt the church offended the sacred ritual. The bread and wine are meant to represent the body and blood of Jesus Christ and are only to be given to those who have been baptized.


Maybe she should have made sure the dog was baptized first.
I suppose that's easier than baptizing a cat. Tongue

LOL! Indeed!
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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2010, 10:09:54 AM »

That was a local cultus in a French town: 'St' Guinefort.

Quote
Never recognized officially by Catholic Church (of course); cult persisted until 1930s.

Thank you! I'll give a look.
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« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2010, 10:21:30 AM »

Cats, with their cleanliness, grace and discretion, are quite superior to dogs. They are also the only critter allowed entry into an Orthodox church.  Kiss

Well, as any long-time cat owner will testify, there comes a point where you just give up and let the cat go wherever she wants to go.  Saves money on medical bills.  Grin
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« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2010, 10:28:38 AM »

It would be convincing if we had not already found out from Hanna-Barbera (or was it Chuck Jones?) decades earlier that this can't be true, that at least one dog did not make it to heaven, Spike, as he waits in the fiery pit to meet Tom the cat and put him in a molten kettle in one of the T&J episodes.    But that is what happens when you focus in on modern aspects of cartoonified theology and ignore the long tradition that preceded it.  
Tom and Jerry was a production of Hanna and Barbera.
Yes, but later I believe it was chuck jones.  Not sure whether said episode was under them or under the era of chuck jones.
Yeah, you're right. Wink

Is this the video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TePjyMd7JFo

Hanna and Barbera directed this one.

That's the one!
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« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2010, 01:18:09 PM »

Cats, with their cleanliness, grace and discretion, are quite superior to dogs. They are also the only critter allowed entry into an Orthodox church.  Kiss

Seeing-eye-dogs might be allowed someplaces in the world. There's probably birds that can fly in and out in some cathedrals. They pretty, I think.
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« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2010, 01:27:08 PM »

Cats, with their cleanliness, grace and discretion, are quite superior to dogs. They are also the only critter allowed entry into an Orthodox church.  Kiss
Then again, you probably haven't seen my brother's cats.  If the one-year-old is anything like what my brother's been saying about him, you probably wouldn't want him in church.  The cat has been picking fights with older cats since he was a kitten, and he has to eat outside if he decides to eat what he kills--damn good mouser, but he likes to eat his prey after killing it.  The cat reportedly ate a sparrow in the living room of my brother's trailer last summer and left a big mess of blood and feathers for my bro to clean up.

In short, this cat is truly a cat's cat.  Mean SOB, but my brother loves him. Grin

Type in Demon cat on youtube. I am not sure cats should be allowed per-se.

The whole play with your food before killing it thing grosses me out too.



Not all cats do this though if they are raised right.



They say someday everyone gets resurrected in new earth and lion will lie down with lamb. I am not sure if this is possible, but would like to believe it.

Gohan the hamster and Aochan the snake are roommates at Mutsugoro Okoku Zoo, on the outskirts of Tokyo. Gohan is a 9-centimeter-long dwarf mouse; Aochan, a 120-centimeter-long ratsnake. Zoo keepers had presented the hamster to Aochan as a tasty morsel in October, after the snake had refused to eat frozen mice. Instead of indulging, Aochan made friends with the furry rodent, according to keeper Kazuya Yamamoto. The pair have shared a cage since.
http://www.yardwear.net/blog/default,month,2006-01.aspx
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 01:27:34 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2010, 11:36:40 AM »

I suppose that's easier than baptizing a cat. Tongue
One of our cats was sleeping on the guest bed when the priest can through to bless the house.

The cat caught a fairly good spray of Holy Water dead on.

I was surprised the little stinker didn't burst into flame.
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« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2010, 03:00:24 PM »

Whenever our house is blessed the priest always give our bull terrier a good soaking. The blighter has escaped many times but never hurt on the busy road he runs off to.
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