OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 21, 2014, 12:41:49 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Was Jesus Omniscient?  (Read 7784 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Rufus
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: leet


Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.


« Reply #90 on: July 22, 2010, 04:40:41 AM »

OK, I'll dip my toe back in the waters of this controversy.

What does it mean when Luke writes "Jesus increased in wisdom"  (Luke 2:52)

I am certain  "Jesus increased in wisdom" means something, and just as certain that I do not understand it well.


On the basis of what I have already said in this thread, my opinion would be that His naturally limited human rational faculty grew from a lesser to a greater awareness, while His divine awareness had no capacity for such growth, already being unlimited.

ditto. It means He was human. People aren't born omniscient. Jesus Christ was indeed omniscient and all-wise throughout His incarnation, and yet He still had to learn as we do. How can He redeem us if He has an unfair advantage over us?

As for how He was omniscient and yet grew in wisdom, I just know that we'll never figure it out. There are more mind-boggling mysteries than this for us to become confused over.

That's my understanding; I'll go look up some patristic sources and post again later, perhaps with a changed mind.
Logged
Rufus
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: leet


Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.


« Reply #91 on: July 22, 2010, 09:10:49 PM »

Saint Athanasios on Mark 13:32 (“But concerning that day or the hour, no one knoweth, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, except the Father”):

“Of that day or hour no one knows, not even He Himself—that is, when viewed according to the flesh, because He too, as human, lives within the limits of the human condition. He said this to show that, viewed as an ordinary man, He does not know the future, for this is a human characteristic. Insofar as He is viewed according to His divinity as the Logos who is to come, to judge, to be bridegroom, however, He knows when and in what hour He will come…. Viewed according to His divinity, He knows, andthere is nothing which He does not know.” [Discourses Against the Arians, Third Discourse, Ch. XXVIII]

Quotation found in The Orthodox New Testament, by Holy Apostles Convent.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #92 on: July 22, 2010, 09:20:54 PM »

Saint Athanasios on Mark 13:32 (“But concerning that day or the hour, no one knoweth, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, except the Father”):

“Of that day or hour no one knows, not even He Himself—that is, when viewed according to the flesh, because He too, as human, lives within the limits of the human condition. He said this to show that, viewed as an ordinary man, He does not know the future, for this is a human characteristic. Insofar as He is viewed according to His divinity as the Logos who is to come, to judge, to be bridegroom, however, He knows when and in what hour He will come…. Viewed according to His divinity, He knows, andthere is nothing which He does not know.” [Discourses Against the Arians, Third Discourse, Ch. XXVIII]

Quotation found in The Orthodox New Testament, by Holy Apostles Convent.


So in His human 'knowing' he was not omniscient.

It still fails to explain how the knowledge of His divine intellect is blocked from being known by His human intellect.

But I don't expect to understand this and am not really asking for an answer.
Logged
Rufus
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: leet


Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.


« Reply #93 on: July 22, 2010, 11:21:59 PM »

Saint Athanasios on Mark 13:32 (“But concerning that day or the hour, no one knoweth, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, except the Father”):

“Of that day or hour no one knows, not even He Himself—that is, when viewed according to the flesh, because He too, as human, lives within the limits of the human condition. He said this to show that, viewed as an ordinary man, He does not know the future, for this is a human characteristic. Insofar as He is viewed according to His divinity as the Logos who is to come, to judge, to be bridegroom, however, He knows when and in what hour He will come…. Viewed according to His divinity, He knows, andthere is nothing which He does not know.” [Discourses Against the Arians, Third Discourse, Ch. XXVIII]

Quotation found in The Orthodox New Testament, by Holy Apostles Convent.


So in His human 'knowing' he was not omniscient.

It still fails to explain how the knowledge of His divine intellect is blocked from being known by His human intellect.

But I don't expect to understand this and am not really asking for an answer.

Neither am I. There are far more mind-boggling questions about the Incarnation than this one.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 11:23:00 PM by Rufus » Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #94 on: July 23, 2010, 12:08:14 AM »

Saint Athanasios on Mark 13:32 (“But concerning that day or the hour, no one knoweth, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, except the Father”):

“Of that day or hour no one knows, not even He Himself—that is, when viewed according to the flesh, because He too, as human, lives within the limits of the human condition. He said this to show that, viewed as an ordinary man, He does not know the future, for this is a human characteristic. Insofar as He is viewed according to His divinity as the Logos who is to come, to judge, to be bridegroom, however, He knows when and in what hour He will come…. Viewed according to His divinity, He knows, andthere is nothing which He does not know.” [Discourses Against the Arians, Third Discourse, Ch. XXVIII]

Quotation found in The Orthodox New Testament, by Holy Apostles Convent.


Thank you for the quote!
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #95 on: July 23, 2010, 12:10:09 AM »

Saint Athanasios on Mark 13:32 (“But concerning that day or the hour, no one knoweth, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, except the Father”):

“Of that day or hour no one knows, not even He Himself—that is, when viewed according to the flesh, because He too, as human, lives within the limits of the human condition. He said this to show that, viewed as an ordinary man, He does not know the future, for this is a human characteristic. Insofar as He is viewed according to His divinity as the Logos who is to come, to judge, to be bridegroom, however, He knows when and in what hour He will come…. Viewed according to His divinity, He knows, andthere is nothing which He does not know.” [Discourses Against the Arians, Third Discourse, Ch. XXVIII]

Quotation found in The Orthodox New Testament, by Holy Apostles Convent.


So in His human 'knowing' he was not omniscient.

It still fails to explain how the knowledge of His divine intellect is blocked from being known by His human intellect.

But I don't expect to understand this and am not really asking for an answer.

I don't know about that language. Is His humanity "blocked" from being everywhere that His divinity is? It's just a matter of essential differences.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Rufus
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: leet


Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.


« Reply #96 on: July 23, 2010, 01:45:04 AM »

Saint Athanasios on Mark 13:32 (“But concerning that day or the hour, no one knoweth, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, except the Father”):

“Of that day or hour no one knows, not even He Himself—that is, when viewed according to the flesh, because He too, as human, lives within the limits of the human condition. He said this to show that, viewed as an ordinary man, He does not know the future, for this is a human characteristic. Insofar as He is viewed according to His divinity as the Logos who is to come, to judge, to be bridegroom, however, He knows when and in what hour He will come…. Viewed according to His divinity, He knows, andthere is nothing which He does not know.” [Discourses Against the Arians, Third Discourse, Ch. XXVIII]

Quotation found in The Orthodox New Testament, by Holy Apostles Convent.


So in His human 'knowing' he was not omniscient.

It still fails to explain how the knowledge of His divine intellect is blocked from being known by His human intellect.

But I don't expect to understand this and am not really asking for an answer.

I don't know about that language. Is His humanity "blocked" from being everywhere that His divinity is? It's just a matter of essential differences.

Yeah, I don't really like the term "blocked" either, but what do I know.
Logged
HaileAmanuel
HaileAmanuel [Amanuel is my Power]
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahido/Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 87


He that is greatest among you will be your servant


« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2010, 03:30:33 AM »

"So in His human 'knowing' he was not omniscient.

It still fails to explain how the knowledge of His divine intellect is blocked from being known by His human intellect.

But I don't expect to understand this and am not really asking for an answer."

Gospel of St. Luke Chapter 2:40-52. And the Child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, being filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon Him. And again; But Jesus increased in stature and wisdom and grace with God and men.

TO say that the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, being filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon Him, must be taken as referring to His human nature. And examine, I pray you, closely the profoundness of the dispensation: the Word endures to be born in human fashion, although in His divine nature He has no beginning nor is subject to time: He Who as God is all perfect, submits to bodily growth: the Incorporeal has limbs that advance to the ripeness of manhood: He is filled with wisdom Who is Himself all wisdom. And what say we to this? Behold by these things Him Who was in the form of the Father made like unto us: the Rich in poverty: the High in humiliation: Him said to "receive," Whose is the fullness as God. So thoroughly did God the Word empty Himself! For what things are written of Him as a man show the manner of the emptying. For it were a thing impossible for the Word begotten of God the Father to admit ought like this into His own nature: but when He became flesh, even a man like unto us, then He is born according to the flesh of a woman, and is said also to have been subject to the things that belong to man's state: and though the Word as being God could have made His flesh spring forth at once from the womb unto the measure of the perfect man, yet this would have been of the nature of a portent: and therefore He gave the habits and laws of human nature power even over His own flesh.

Be not therefore offended, considering perchance within yourself, How can God increase? Or how can He Who gives grace to angels and to men receive fresh wisdom? Rather reflect upon the great skill wherewith we are initiated into His mystery. For the wise Evangelist did not introduce the Word in His abstract and incorporeal nature, and so say of Him that He increased in stature and wisdom and grace, but after having shown that He was born in the flesh of a woman, and took our likeness, he then assigns to Him these human attributes and calls Him a child, and says that He waxed in stature, as His body grow little by little, in obedience to corporeal laws. And so He is said also to have increased in wisdom, not as receiving fresh supplies of wisdom—for God is perceived by the understanding to be entirely perfect in all things, and altogether incapable of being destitute of any attribute suitable to the Godhead: but because God the Word gradually manifested His wisdom proportionally to the age which the body had attained.

The body then advances in stature and the soul in wisdom: for the divine nature is capable of increase in neither one nor the other; seeing that the Word of God is all perfect. And with good reason he connected the increase of wisdom with the growth of the bodily stature, because the divine nature revealed its own wisdom in proportion to the measure of the bodily growth.

St. Cyril I of Alexandria
Logged

'He who is greatest among you, will be your servant [St. Matthew 23:11].'
johnwilknson
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #98 on: July 26, 2010, 05:44:25 AM »

Hi,
Jesus refers to God incarnate state of existence. To become a man that God made the deliberate choice of works within the limits of human existence. One of these limitations is cognitive in nature. Jesus, Jesus is not a prerequisite, and indeed could not know all the sentences true. Think that might have been expected merely to infinity.
Logged

Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #99 on: August 01, 2010, 05:34:46 AM »

Something interesting (see 37) from the Council of Blachernae in 1157 which touches on the omniscience of the human nature of Christ.

This synod condemned the errors of Basilakes and Soterichos.  The following anathemas from that synod are included in the Synodicon of Orthodoxy (see 842 above).

(28) those who say that Christ offered his sacrifice to God the Father alone, and not to himself and to the Holy Spirit;
(30) those who deny that the daily sacrifice of the priests of the Church is to the Holy Trinity;
(31) those who say that the sacrifice of the Divine Liturgy is only figuratively the sacrifice of Christ's body and blood; those who deny that the sacrifice in the Lirtugy is one and the same as that of Christ on the cross;
(33) those who deny that Christ reconciled us to Himself though the entire mystery of the economy, and so reconciled us to all of the Holy Trinity, but say instead that we were reconciled to the Son through the incarnation and to the Father through the passion;
(34) those who misunderstand and twist the teachings of the Church;
(35) those who think the deification of Christ's humanity destroyed his human nature; and those who deny that his deified human nature is worthy of worship; and those who say that, since the human nature of Christ was swallowed up into Divinity, his passion was an illusion;
(36) those who reject the doctrines of Athanasius, Cyril, Ambrose, Amphilochius, and Leo of Old Rome, and who do not accept the teachings of the Ecumenical councils, in particular, the fourth and sixth councils;
(37) those who say that characteristics of Christ's human nature - such as creaturehood, circumscription, mortality, and blameless passions - exist only hypothetically, when one considers Christ's human nature in abstraction, and not really and truly;


http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/History/chron9.htm
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #100 on: August 01, 2010, 09:53:45 PM »

That seems very relevant. Thank you for the information.  Smiley
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 09:53:59 PM by deusveritasest » Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,688



WWW
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2010, 01:52:21 PM »

Something interesting (see 37) from the Council of Blachernae in 1157 which touches on the omniscience of the human nature of Christ. The following anathemas from that synod are included in the Synodicon of Orthodoxy.
(37) those who say that characteristics of Christ's human nature - such as creaturehood, circumscription, mortality, and blameless passions - exist only hypothetically, when one considers Christ's human nature in abstraction, and not really and truly;

Isaiah 40 says:
Quote
Do you not know-if you have not heard-an everlasting God is the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth; He neither tires nor wearies.

Daniel 7 describes one "like unto a son of Man," whose "dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Since it describes him as "like" a son of Man, as opposed to a Man, the person might be divine and immortal. On the other hand, since He is like a son of Man, he has qualities that are like those of men, and that might include mortality in some way.

The Gospels record that Christ was born, ate, drank, died and rose as a Man does, and not as we might expect an immortal God to.

In this way we compare God's unearthly qualities with the earthly qualities of the Messiah, to show that the question of godliness doesn't prevent the scriptures from indicating His death and resurrection.

If God doesn't die, but the flesh of our fallen world dies, then if a part of God incarnated, why couldn't His earthly flesh die? If his body died, and because of His immortality He returned His body to life, then is this not a bodily resurrection?

Father Yakov Krotov of the Ukranian Orthodox Autocephalous Church wrote:
Quote
When Jesus healed the blind, this was a miracle, but when Jesus rose, this was not a miracle. Christianity begins with the belief that Christ's resurrection was natural, and not supernatural, because God naturally does not die... "Nature" is a philosophical concept, not a scientific one.
Jacob Krotov, Miracles
www.krotov.me/yakov/3_vera/1_vera/5a_chudesa.htm

I don't fully understand what he means.

But one could say, "You are right, Fr. Krotov, we believe that God's nature doesn't die, so Christ's resurrection was based on his nature. So for us, once we understand that Christ's nature was divine, there is nothing miraculous about Christ's resurrection. It is completely understandable. In fact, there is nothing miraculous about the healing either, once we have the philosophical understanding that God can do anything with his power, even heal people, since Christianity believes that Christ is God. What looks to us as miracles is really quite natural."

What do you think?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 01:55:52 PM by rakovsky » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,896


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2010, 03:14:24 PM »

Something interesting (see 37) from the Council of Blachernae in 1157 which touches on the omniscience of the human nature of Christ. The following anathemas from that synod are included in the Synodicon of Orthodoxy.
(37) those who say that characteristics of Christ's human nature - such as creaturehood, circumscription, mortality, and blameless passions - exist only hypothetically, when one considers Christ's human nature in abstraction, and not really and truly;

Isaiah 40 says:
Quote
Do you not know-if you have not heard-an everlasting God is the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth; He neither tires nor wearies.

Daniel 7 describes one "like unto a son of Man," whose "dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Since it describes him as "like" a son of Man, as opposed to a Man, the person might be divine and immortal. On the other hand, since He is like a son of Man, he has qualities that are like those of men, and that might include mortality in some way.

The Gospels record that Christ was born, ate, drank, died and rose as a Man does, and not as we might expect an immortal God to.

In this way we compare God's unearthly qualities with the earthly qualities of the Messiah, to show that the question of godliness doesn't prevent the scriptures from indicating His death and resurrection.

If God doesn't die, but the flesh of our fallen world dies, then if a part of God incarnated, why couldn't His earthly flesh die? If his body died, and because of His immortality He returned His body to life, then is this not a bodily resurrection?

Father Yakov Krotov of the Ukranian Orthodox Autocephalous Church wrote:
Quote
When Jesus healed the blind, this was a miracle, but when Jesus rose, this was not a miracle. Christianity begins with the belief that Christ's resurrection was natural, and not supernatural, because God naturally does not die... "Nature" is a philosophical concept, not a scientific one.
Jacob Krotov, Miracles
www.krotov.me/yakov/3_vera/1_vera/5a_chudesa.htm

I don't fully understand what he means.

But one could say, "You are right, Fr. Krotov, we believe that God's nature doesn't die, so Christ's resurrection was based on his nature. So for us, once we understand that Christ's nature was divine, there is nothing miraculous about Christ's resurrection. It is completely understandable. In fact, there is nothing miraculous about the healing either, once we have the philosophical understanding that God can do anything with his power, even heal people, since Christianity believes that Christ is God. What looks to us as miracles is really quite natural."

What do you think?
Did you post this as a way of making the connection to omniscience or as a separate topic altogether?
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,674


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2010, 04:07:58 PM »

Notice, that despite Jesus does not know when the world will end, He knows exactly what will happen then, since He is the source of the Book of Revelation.

I think that we must take this issue in view of Jesus theantropic nature. God is immortal, but Jesus died (even if temporarily). God is everywhere, but Jesus occupied a limited space. So, there *are* human limitations to Jesus human nature.

It is revealing, then, that this very human kind of knowledge (when something will happen), for being something completely from within time, is beyond human nature. Human nature, even the one that exists in Jesus, cannot know this because, at least for now, human nature exists within time, while to know that you must see from outside time.

When someone talks to Jesus physically, you talk to Him as the Second Person, the human-God being. He manifests His Father fully, but not all at once, because He is "existing" in time.

There are things that are in Him and are proper of God, but that cannot be properly actualized in His human nature due to the limitations of this created nature. So, although He *is* omniscient as God, those kinds of knowledge that are unachievable by human nature remain so. His human nature cannot express certain attributes that are exclusive of His divine nature. His kenosis is indeed a very radical one.

Your last paragraph is good.  But I think it has been preferred that such language as "God is immortal, but Jesus died" is dangerously borderline Nestorian.

We confessed God took flesh, God hungered, God thirsted, God fasted, God was tempted, God suffered, God died, God rose from the dead.  All of this of course is through His humanity as these are not befitting divine nature.  At the same time, such language as "God is immortal, but Jesus died" denies the communicato idiomatum of St. Cyril.

So if we were to confessed rightly, God the Word also expressed ignorance through His humanity.  That's it!  Let us no longer contemplate because this is a mystery that only God knows.  God decided to speak as a human, as like any other human, he does not know when He is assigned to come back and bring judgment to the world, but the point is that one shouldn't know anyway, because the Lord comes when you least expect it, like a thief in the night.  Therefore, Christ blessed human ignorance by partaking of it, showing us that it is not of our concern to know when the day of Judgment is, and that Christ Himself is also not concerned, but to continue in the ministry of the gospel.

LBK, Duesveritasest, the answer from Orthodox Answers, the quote from St. Athanasius, and the quote from St. Cyril of Alexandria all provide us with sufficient answers to the question.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #104 on: September 07, 2010, 06:07:59 AM »

Rakovsky ............
Jesus even as a Child  was Doing the Teaching and the Elders in the Temple Marveled as His Great Wisdom..Yes He Knew Everything..... laugh
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
NIKODIMOSETHIO
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: ORIENTAL CHURCH
Jurisdiction: ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX
Posts: 36



« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2010, 05:02:32 AM »

does THE LORD JESUS  know every thing while he was in this warld.
Logged
Dart
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 655


« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2010, 05:17:30 AM »

does THE LORD JESUS  know every thing while he was in this warld.

My opinion is no He did not know everything while He was in this world except in that He was in communion with God the Father and the Holy Spirit who did know everything.  Likewise, we do not know everything but if we are in communion with Jesus then through Him we could know everything.
Logged
NIKODIMOSETHIO
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: ORIENTAL CHURCH
Jurisdiction: ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX
Posts: 36



« Reply #107 on: November 09, 2010, 03:43:09 AM »

but what about his divinity. wasnt HE DEVINE while HE was here
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2010, 04:58:02 AM »

does THE LORD JESUS  know every thing while he was in this warld.


An existing thread may be useful

"Was Jesus Omniscient?"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28594.0.html
Logged
NIKODIMOSETHIO
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: ORIENTAL CHURCH
Jurisdiction: ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX
Posts: 36



« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2010, 06:11:34 AM »

Jesus knew everything:


He will do the same on the Day of Judgment: He will not KNOW some of His disciples:




how come he forget his FRIENDS
Logged
NIKODIMOSETHIO
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: ORIENTAL CHURCH
Jurisdiction: ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOX
Posts: 36



« Reply #110 on: November 09, 2010, 06:29:59 AM »

i say HE KNOWS AND DOESN'T KNOW
cos on the syrian prayer they say

HOLY GOD WHO DOES NOT DIE (WHO IS ETERNAL) AND WHO HAD RISEN FROM DEATH

so CHRIST is mortal but he is also immortal

i think this is what i believe
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #111 on: November 09, 2010, 12:28:26 PM »

Yes, I've always heard that Christ emptied himself of certain divine qualities while he was on earth (or more correctly, returned them to the Father).

Perhaps another way to look at it is that the human body has limits, and perhaps omniscience would "overload" it.

One thing that confuses me is this. Wasn't Christ eternally present as the "Word of God" even while He was on earth? As "the Word" he is omniscient, and knows all things. Doesn't this imply some sort of duality in nature between the Word and Christ on earth?
Logged
Dart
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 655


« Reply #112 on: November 10, 2010, 08:45:14 PM »

Biblically he did not know the day and hour of judgement and he did not know who would sit at His right and left in heaven as only God knew these things.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,688



WWW
« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2010, 12:44:10 AM »

Something interesting (see 37) from the Council of Blachernae in 1157 which touches on the omniscience of the human nature of Christ. The following anathemas from that synod are included in the Synodicon of Orthodoxy.
(37) those who say that characteristics of Christ's human nature - such as creaturehood, circumscription, mortality, and blameless passions - exist only hypothetically, when one considers Christ's human nature in abstraction, and not really and truly;

Isaiah 40 says:
Quote
Do you not know-if you have not heard-an everlasting God is the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth; He neither tires nor wearies.

Daniel 7 describes one "like unto a son of Man," whose "dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Since it describes him as "like" a son of Man, as opposed to a Man, the person might be divine and immortal. On the other hand, since He is like a son of Man, he has qualities that are like those of men, and that might include mortality in some way.

The Gospels record that Christ was born, ate, drank, died and rose as a Man does, and not as we might expect an immortal God to.

In this way we compare God's unearthly qualities with the earthly qualities of the Messiah, to show that the question of godliness doesn't prevent the scriptures from indicating His death and resurrection.

If God doesn't die, but the flesh of our fallen world dies, then if a part of God incarnated, why couldn't His earthly flesh die? If his body died, and because of His immortality He returned His body to life, then is this not a bodily resurrection?

Father Yakov Krotov of the Ukranian Orthodox Autocephalous Church wrote:
Quote
When Jesus healed the blind, this was a miracle, but when Jesus rose, this was not a miracle. Christianity begins with the belief that Christ's resurrection was natural, and not supernatural, because God naturally does not die... "Nature" is a philosophical concept, not a scientific one.
Jacob Krotov, Miracles
www.krotov.me/yakov/3_vera/1_vera/5a_chudesa.htm

I don't fully understand what he means.

But one could say, "You are right, Fr. Krotov, we believe that God's nature doesn't die, so Christ's resurrection was based on his nature. So for us, once we understand that Christ's nature was divine, there is nothing miraculous about Christ's resurrection. It is completely understandable. In fact, there is nothing miraculous about the healing either, once we have the philosophical understanding that God can do anything with his power, even heal people, since Christianity believes that Christ is God. What looks to us as miracles is really quite natural."

What do you think?
Did you post this as a way of making the connection to omniscience or as a separate topic altogether?

Peter the Aleut,

Looking back, I don't think that I made the post to connect the topic of Christ's earthly and divine qualities to the thread's topic of Jesus' omniscience. But I didn't post it as a separate topic altogether either.

Rather, the thread's question of whether Jesus was Omniscient seems to be within the broader question of the relationship between His earthly and divine qualities, which I tried to deal with, but left as a somewhat open question to discuss too.

Stashko,

Thanks for replying with your view that "Jesus even as a Child  was Doing the Teaching and the Elders in the Temple Marveled as His Great Wisdom..Yes He Knew Everything....."

But I am not sure how to describe and understand His knowledge, its extent, and his awareness of it. As God, Jesus would have the ability to know everything.

It would make sense to me that he studied and learned some things. But maybe I am wrong about that. I can't remember ever reading that Jesus studied anything. So maybe he simply did know everything and was aware of all the possible knowledge.

Please forgive that I am somewhat confused about the question.

NIKODIMOSETHIO ,

You asked: "does THE LORD JESUS  know every thing while he was in this warld."

I think Dart correctly said that the answer is "No", if his explanation, that "Biblically he did not know the day and hour of judgement and he did not know who would sit at His right and left in heaven as only God knew these things", if his explanation is modified to refer to God the father knowing the predicted time of judgment, rather than simply referring to God's knowledge of it, since Jesus was/may have been God. The New Testament indicates that Jesus was God.

You make a good point asking "what about his divinity. wasnt HE DEVINE while HE was here", and I think the answer is Yes, since he was divine, he had the ability to know everything, but some things, like the time of judgment, he didn't choose to make himself aware of. This seems to me a reasonable explanation, but I'm uncertain if it's the best one.

Happy Nativity
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,602



« Reply #114 on: May 26, 2013, 12:05:26 PM »

Quote
Christ while on earth was ignorant of many things. He emptied Himself. He wept and felt sorrow and was surprised, etc.

No He wasn't. He was still omniscient. The feast of the Raising of Lazarus has much to say about this.

Yeah and my Bible says other stuff. You do lose sight of the proportion of things.

LBK, I am not bickering with you about anything till you decide to deal principles and not text proofing.

[/end]
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 12:06:47 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,045


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #115 on: May 26, 2013, 03:11:37 PM »

Quote
Christ while on earth was ignorant of many things. He emptied Himself. He wept and felt sorrow and was surprised, etc.

No He wasn't. He was still omniscient. The feast of the Raising of Lazarus has much to say about this.
If I recall, "took on our ignorance" is part of that reading, and things like "as God he did this, as Man he did this". Of course, the monophysite (not meaning the OO, but in the true sense of the word) reading denies that the one subsistence of Christ is able to do two contradictory things at once, as it believes him to be a dead, unchanging monad.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 03:14:29 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,815


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #116 on: May 26, 2013, 05:07:09 PM »

The above two posts were moved here from a thread in the Oriental Orthodox section:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51662.msg928956.html#msg928956
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 05:10:53 PM by Salpy » Logged

JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,852


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #117 on: May 26, 2013, 06:05:04 PM »

Idk. Personally, I don't like these adjectives used to describe God like "omnipotent, omniscient," etc. that are common among western theologians like Bill Craig. It opens up the door for too many questions and contradictions. The eastern method has always been the "negative" theology--describing what God is NOT opposed to what He is. Thus the essence-energies distinction.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,430


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #118 on: May 26, 2013, 08:01:44 PM »

Quote
Christ while on earth was ignorant of many things. He emptied Himself. He wept and felt sorrow and was surprised, etc.

No He wasn't. He was still omniscient. The feast of the Raising of Lazarus has much to say about this.

Yeah and my Bible says other stuff. You do lose sight of the proportion of things.

LBK, I am not bickering with you about anything till you decide to deal principles and not text proofing.

[/end]


Hymnography gives us the proper context and meaning of scripture. Lex orandi, lex credendi. Deal with it.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 08:02:16 PM by LBK » Logged
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,045


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #119 on: May 26, 2013, 08:03:58 PM »

Antiquity without truth is the age-old error.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,578


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #120 on: May 26, 2013, 09:39:04 PM »

If Christ is not Omniscient, then He could not be God.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #121 on: May 26, 2013, 09:44:27 PM »

If Christ is not Omniscient, then He could not be God.

PP
Therein lies the rub, because in order to be fully human he had to be ignorant.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,578


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #122 on: May 26, 2013, 09:45:57 PM »

If Christ is not Omniscient, then He could not be God.

PP
Therein lies the rub, because in order to be fully human he had to be ignorant.
Damn Nestorius........Smiley
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 09:46:14 PM by primuspilus » Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #123 on: May 26, 2013, 09:49:01 PM »

If Christ is not Omniscient, then He could not be God.

PP
Therein lies the rub, because in order to be fully human he had to be ignorant.
Damn Nestorius........Smiley
The Bible says he had to grow and learn.

Weren't we just on a topic about God emptying Himself to be a servant? in order to be the new Adam?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 09:49:19 PM by Achronos » Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,578


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #124 on: May 26, 2013, 09:51:33 PM »

*sigh* yet at the same time he could read thoughts....forget it. Jesus is God and man. Anything more will just make my hair turn gray.....
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,045


When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #125 on: May 26, 2013, 10:45:54 PM »

Damn Nestorius........Smiley
You don't really understand Nestorianism.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,578


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #126 on: May 27, 2013, 04:53:05 PM »

Damn Nestorius........Smiley
You don't really understand Nestorianism.
It was a joke. Calm your rockets. Jeez.
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,669


« Reply #127 on: May 27, 2013, 05:13:59 PM »

The Incarnation itself is paradoxical: how can one Person be both God and Man, Uncreated and Created? And yet the Incarnation occurred and such a Person exists. So I don't see what problem we as Christians have with the paradox of Christ being both omniscient as the Word of God, and limited in knowledge as a human being (while on earth).
Logged
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #128 on: May 27, 2013, 05:40:57 PM »

Quote
It still fails to explain how the knowledge of His divine intellect is blocked from being known by His human intellect.

Dear and lovely brother, I saw you didn´t ask for a response. But I´ll just take the quote and post a answer for anyone who is interested in reading it. The sinners answer. Forgive me if I shouldn´t quote as you didn´t ask for any answer.

Indeed this phenomena is a great mystery for our humans to grasp and understand fully. Even as Christ didn´t know in his human intellect, he yet knew in his divine one. I would propose, in the light of scripture, that Christ humbles himself so much that many of the things he say and teach are spoken from his human intellect, from his taken human flesh and its restrictions. He gives us a hint in John of why he does this.

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Remember that Christ set aside his true glory, that he had with the Father before the world began. (John 17:5)
That doesn´t imply that his glory is a mystery. It just means humilty in its full sence, that Christ as he set aside his glory, set aside a divine intellect aswell, it was always before him to use, but he chose not to. In the light of Mark 13:32 and John 17:5 we see that Christ was without but yet with glory, without and yet with knowledge. Not because it contradicts, but because his glory and knowledge were put on hold for these specific moments.

He didn´t want to overwhelm us weaklings here on earth with answer we couldn´t grasp. We drop our hearts to the floor and burst out in tears and worship when he talks about a shepherd and  his sheeps. We would not be able to handle all the details about the last day, so Christ in humilty chose not to know the time of that day in that specific moment.

He has power to lay down his life and take it up again. If he has power over life, how much more has he not over his own glory and knowledge?

« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 05:43:56 PM by Jovan » Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 3,000


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #129 on: May 27, 2013, 06:01:04 PM »

I just read about this yesterday in a sermon by St. Cyril of Alexandria.
It was a commentary on the gospel of Luke, but I don't know where to find it.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 06:01:36 PM by Ansgar » Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,815


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #130 on: May 27, 2013, 06:04:11 PM »

This is probably what you read:

Quote
Be not therefore offended, considering perchance within thyself, How can God increase? or how can He Who gives grace to angels and to men receive fresh wisdom? Rather reflect upon the great skill wherewith we are initiated into His mystery. For the wise Evangelist did not introduce the Word in His abstract and incorporeal nature, and so say of Him that |30 He increased in stature and wisdom and grace, but after having shewn that He was born in the flesh of a woman, and took our likeness, he then assigns to Him these human attributes, and calls Him a child, and says that He waxed in stature, as His body grow little by little, in obedience to corporeal laws. And so He is said also to have increased in wisdom, not as receiving fresh supplies of wisdom,----for God is perceived by the understanding to be entirely perfect in all things, and altogether incapable of being destitute of any attribute suitable to the Godhead:----but because God the Word gradually manifested His wisdom proportionably to the age which the body had attained.

The body then advances in stature, and the soul 33 in wisdom: for the divine nature is capable of increase in neither one nor the other; seeing that the Word of God is all perfect. And with good reason he connected the increase of wisdom with the growth of the bodily stature, because the divine nature revealed its own wisdom in proportion to the measure of the bodily growth.

See Sermon 5:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/cyril_on_luke_01_sermons_01_11.htm#C5
Logged

Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 3,000


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #131 on: May 27, 2013, 06:07:26 PM »

This is probably what you read:

Quote
Be not therefore offended, considering perchance within thyself, How can God increase? or how can He Who gives grace to angels and to men receive fresh wisdom? Rather reflect upon the great skill wherewith we are initiated into His mystery. For the wise Evangelist did not introduce the Word in His abstract and incorporeal nature, and so say of Him that |30 He increased in stature and wisdom and grace, but after having shewn that He was born in the flesh of a woman, and took our likeness, he then assigns to Him these human attributes, and calls Him a child, and says that He waxed in stature, as His body grow little by little, in obedience to corporeal laws. And so He is said also to have increased in wisdom, not as receiving fresh supplies of wisdom,----for God is perceived by the understanding to be entirely perfect in all things, and altogether incapable of being destitute of any attribute suitable to the Godhead:----but because God the Word gradually manifested His wisdom proportionably to the age which the body had attained.

The body then advances in stature, and the soul 33 in wisdom: for the divine nature is capable of increase in neither one nor the other; seeing that the Word of God is all perfect. And with good reason he connected the increase of wisdom with the growth of the bodily stature, because the divine nature revealed its own wisdom in proportion to the measure of the bodily growth.

See Sermon 5:

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/cyril_on_luke_01_sermons_01_11.htm#C5

That's the one. Thank you.  Smiley
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,815


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #132 on: May 27, 2013, 06:09:12 PM »

Your welcome.   Smiley

And I think it shows that St. Cyril would agree with LBK.
Logged

xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,436


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #133 on: May 27, 2013, 07:54:22 PM »

Here is a link to St. Basil  the Great's treatment (Epistle 236). He states this knowledge belongs in the first instance to the hypostasis of the Father (compare the Cappadocian view of the Monarchy of the Father, the generation of the Son, and the procession of the Holy Spirit, all from eternity). He then goes on to relate the question also to John 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine," and so on.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned; I did not read the whole thread.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 08:15:18 PM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,470


« Reply #134 on: May 28, 2013, 05:19:40 AM »

The germ of EO vs. OO larrup was moved to the Private Fora:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51703.0.html
Logged
Tags: Christology omniscience Agnoetae 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.164 seconds with 72 queries.