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Author Topic: Patristic Consensus on Salvation for Heterodox  (Read 2847 times) Average Rating: 0
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William
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« on: July 06, 2010, 09:08:04 PM »

Hi, this is my first time posting.

I've read that many Orthodox believe that the heterodox can attain salvation for various reasons. I've also read that the general consensus is that we don't know and shouldn't judge. I am considering converting to Orthodoxy but before I do I need to make sure that this isn't a concession to modern/liberal theology. So what do the Fathers and saints (of all periods) say?
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2010, 09:32:56 PM »

Welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2010, 02:35:45 AM »

This is not as easy as it first may look.

On the one hand there is a consensus that "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus", penned by saint Cyprian of Carthage, is correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

On the other hand there is a consensus that saint Isaac of Syria indeed is a saint.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Isaac_of_Syria

I have accepted this paradox.

EDIT: Welcome to the forum ApplesCheesy
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2010, 04:11:05 AM »

I've read that many Orthodox believe that the heterodox can attain salvation for various reasons. I've also read that the general consensus is that we don't know and shouldn't judge. I am considering converting to Orthodoxy but before I do I need to make sure that this isn't a concession to modern/liberal theology. So what do the Fathers and saints (of all periods) say?

I think this article from Met Philaret well expresses that patristic consensus on this matter.  The article contains a very good quote from St. Theophan the Recluse which says:

Quote from: St. Theophan the Recluse
“You ask, will the heterodox be saved… Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins… I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever.”

The remainder of the article is below.

Quote from: Met Philaret of New York, of blessed memory (+1985)

Question: “If the Orthodox faith is the only true faith, can Christians of other confessions be saved? May a person who has led a perfectly righteous life on earth be saved on the strength of his ancestry, while not being baptized as Christian?

Answer: “For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth [struggleth], but of God that showeth mercy” (Rom. 9:15-16). In the Orthodox Church we have the path of salvation indicated to us and we are given the means by which a person maybe morally purified and have a direct promise of salvation. In this sense St. Cyprian of Carthage says that “outside the Church there is no salvation.” In the Church is given that of which Apostle Peter writes to Christians (and only Christians): “According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Pet. 1:3-8). And what should one say of those outside the Church, who do not belong to her? Another apostle provides us with an idea: “For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth” (1 Cor. 5:12-13). God “will have mercy on whom He will have mercy” (Rom 9:18). It is necessary to mention only one thing: that to “lead a perfectly righteous life,” as the questioner expressed it, means to live according to the commandments of the Beatitudes—which is beyond the power of one, outside the Orthodox Church, without the help of grace which is concealed within it.

The question: Can the heterodox, i.e. those who do, not belong to Orthodoxy—the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church—be saved, has become particularly painful and acute in our days.

In attempting to answer this question, it is necessary, first of all, to recall that in His Gospel the Lord Jesus Christ Himself mentions but one state of the human soul which unfailingly leads to perdition—i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:1-32). The Holy Spirit is, above all, the Spirit of Truth, as the Saviour loved to refer to Him. Accordingly, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Truth, conscious and persistent opposition to it. The same text makes it clear that even blasphemy against the Son of Man—i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God Himself may be forgiven men, as it may be uttered in error or in ignorance and, subsequently may be covered by conversion and repentance (an example of such a converted and repentant blasphemer is the Apostle Paul. (See Acts 26:11 and I Tim. 1:13.) If, however, a man opposes the Truth which he clearly apprehends by his reason and, conscience, he becomes blind and commits spiritual suicide, for he thereby likens himself to the devil, who believes in God and dreads Him, yet hates, blasphemes, and opposes Him.

Thus, man’s refusal to accept the Divine Truth and his opposition thereto makes him a son of damnation. Accordingly, in sending His disciples to preach, the Lord told them: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mk. 16:16), for the latter heard the Lord’s Truth and was called upon to accept it, yet refused, thereby inheriting the damnation of those who “believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (II Thes. 2:12).

The Holy Orthodox Church is the repository of the divinely revealed Truth in all its fullness and fidelity to apostolic Tradition. Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with e ternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold. It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth…* They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, “Who will have all men to be saved” (I Tim. 2:4) and “Who enlightens every man born into the world” (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way.

With reference to the above question, it is particularly instructive to recall the answer once given to an inquirer by the Blessed Theophan the Recluse. The blessed one replied more or less thus: “You ask, will the heterodox be saved… Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins… I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever.”

We believe the foregoing answer by the saintly ascetic to be the best that can be given in this matter.

* The Greek word for “heresy” is derived from the word for “choice” and hence inherently implies conscious, willful rejection or opposition to the Divine Truth manifest in the Orthodox Church.

From Orthodox Life, Vol. 34, No. 6 (Nov.-Dec., 1984), pp. 33-36.
http://horologion.wordpress.com/2008/12/31/will-the-heterodox-be-saved/



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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2010, 04:30:03 AM »

I should probably add that there are a number of "theories" about "how the heterodox may be saved" that are proposed by modern theologians but I think it is probably best not to speculate on this matter but rather to make sure that *we* are in the Ark of Salvation and part of the body of Christ, that *we* are struggling to save our own souls in the Church, and that we continuously pray for those who are not Orthodox that God may enlighten them regarding the truth and lead them to salvation.  It is impossible for an Orthodox Christian to say that anyone in particular is going to Hell, as this is a decision not for us but rather for God to make.  We are responsible for what we have learned regarding the way of salvation.  Membership in the Orthodox Church is no guarantee if we do not struggle to continuously repent of our sins and live in accordance with the Gospel and the teachings of the Church.  The Church has been established for our salvation and we have endless warnings from the Apostles and Fathers not to depart from the true Church.  St. Paul said to the Galatians, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”  St. Ignatius of Antioch, in his epistle to the Philadelphians, states “If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”  These are very sobering words indeed, and we must believe that they are true.  Nevertheless, while being a member of the one Church and living in full accordance with the teachings and practices of the one Church is the sure way to salvation, God can save a Buddhist or even an avowed atheist if He desires to.  How?  None of our business!  In the end, God may save individuals despite their erroneous faith, yet for those who have been led to the Ark of Salvation and the true faith, what excuse will we have for not following it?

« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 04:35:18 AM by jah777 » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2010, 06:22:40 AM »

Would it be OK for me to believe that Metropolitan Philaret was just expressing a very common theologoumenon in the Church?
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2010, 06:39:41 AM »

Would it be OK for me to believe that Metropolitan Philaret was just expressing a very common theologoumenon in the Church?

Well, ultimately you can believe anything you want to believe, but will that belief be true?  Will that belief reflect the mind of the Church or will it lead you away from the Church and from a proper understanding?  

What Met Philaret is expressing is not a dogmatic statement, for sure, but I personally find it very reflective of the consensus of the Church.  If there are elements that you disagree with or dislike in this statement of his, it would be interesting to know what you might disagree with and what about the salvation of heterodox you would prefer to believe instead.  If you consider Met Philaret's words as a common theologoumenon in the Church, for instance, what is your theologoumenon on the subject?  Some ideas on the subject are clearly un-Orthodox and may conflict with actual dogmas of the Church, such as if we were to believe that all heterodox will definitely be saved (for not even all Orthodox will definitely be saved),  or if we believe that in the "restoration of all things" that all mankind will be saved, or if we believe that heterodox are "invisible members" of the Church, or if we believe all heterodox will be condemned.  The dogmas of the Nicene Creed which must be safeguarded in this attitude toward the non-Orthodox are the oneness of the body of Christ (I believe in one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church) and that in the end it is God who judges and not us (He will come again to judge the living and the dead).  We should hope and pray for the non-Orthodox to enter the Church, the Ark of Salvation, but if they do not, in the end we should leave the matter to God and make sure our focus is on our own salvation, “for what does it profit a man if he gainst the whole world but forfeits his own soul?"
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2010, 06:59:57 AM »

What Met Philaret is expressing is not a dogmatic statement, for sure, but I personally find it very reflective of the consensus of the Church.  
I can't bring myself to believe that that theologoumenon is the consensus of the Church without several patristic quotes.

Quote
If there are elements that you disagree with or dislike in this statement of his, it would be interesting to know what you might disagree with and what about the salvation of heterodox you would prefer to believe instead.  If you consider Met Philaret's words as a common theologoumenon in the Church, for instance, what is your theologoumenon on the subject?  Some ideas on the subject are clearly un-Orthodox and may conflict with actual dogmas of the Church, such as if we were to believe that all heterodox will definitely be saved (for not even all Orthodox will definitely be saved),  or if we believe that in the "restoration of all things" that all mankind will be saved, or if we believe that heterodox are "invisible members" of the Church, or if we believe all heterodox will be condemned.
Why is it heterodox to believe the last one ("that all heterodox will be condemned")?

I don't believe that all heterodox are condemned, but from what Ss. Cyril and Ignatius said it looks like that is a perfectly acceptable theologoumenon. Flat out saying that some heterodox are saved downplays the role of the Church and the Holy Mysteries, in my opinion. I prefer to just leave it as a mystery rather than definitively stating that heterodox can go to heaven (which the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese website explicitly says) or explicitly saying that they can't. It confuses me as to why so many people say it isn't for us to judge but then they go on to talking about how they think that non-Orthodox can achieve salvation. That is judging.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 07:00:37 AM by Apples » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2010, 07:14:19 AM »

Patrick Barnes' "The Non-Orthodox: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside the Church" is, in my opinion, the best work today on the issue with rather comprehensive quotes:

You can download it here:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/non-orthodox.pdf

Or read online here:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/status.aspx
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2010, 07:39:39 AM »

Eastern Orthodox.......I would say that the Eastern Orthodox Churches all allow that the heterodox may be saved.

Oriental Orthodox.......The Oriental Orthodox have two opinions.  Most would also allow the salvation of the heterodox but a hard line has emerged among the Coptic Orthodox Church hierarchy and some deny the possibility.
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2010, 07:45:43 AM »

Would it be OK for me to believe that Metropolitan Philaret was just expressing a very common theologoumenon in the Church?



Besides what is quoted above, there are more words of the holy Metropolitan Philaret who was the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad when I was a young man and a very conservative theologian.  He is here speaking of heterodox Christians but I would think he would say the same about Jews and others:


  It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman
Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox
confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who
knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are
living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do
the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not
been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The
Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who
enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is
leading them also towards salvation In His own way."


N.B:  "The Lord...undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation
In His own way."
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2010, 09:28:54 AM »

what Ss. Cyril and Ignatius said it looks like that is a perfectly acceptable theologoumenon. Flat out saying that some heterodox are saved downplays the role of the Church and the Holy Mysteries, in my opinion. I prefer to just leave it as a mystery rather than definitively stating that heterodox can go to heaven

I agree with you completely in this regard.  What portion of Met Philaret’s statement on the subject seemed to you to be overly affirmative or optimistic regarding the salvation of the heterodox?  We must be quite clear of what God has revealed, that there is one Church which is the body of Christ wherein salvation can be attained.  Yet, we must respect the freedom of God to act outside of what He has revealed if He so chooses.  To affirm that some heterodox have been saved has not at all been revealed, quite the contrary!  And you will find no patristic quotes affirming that some heterodox have been saved, quite the contrary!

There was an article I had in hardcopy that I hope to locate in my files called “On the Impossibility of Salvation for the Heterodox” by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov.  In a letter to an Orthodox Russian who was being proselytized by Protestants, St. Theophan the Recluse was quite clear that the Protestant minister was “preaching another Christ,” and we all know that St. Paul said if one brings a gospel other than what he had delivered, or preaches another Christ, even if it were an angel from heaven, “let him be accursed!”  St.  Paisius Velichkovsky wrote to an Eastern Rite Catholic priest encouraging him not to delay in entering the Orthodox Church, even if none of the priest’s flock follows him, lest by delaying even for a good reason death overtake him and he find himself counted not among the faithful but among the unbelievers.  This is all true, yet we should aim above all to save our own souls and not worry excessively about those who fail to be “convinced” by Orthodoxy, remembering that we ourselves, despite being Orthodox, may be condemned in the end if we do not live lives worthy of repentance. 

I also agree that Patrick Barnes’ book is the best treatment on the “status of the non-Orthodox.” 

In Christ,

Jason
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2010, 09:31:23 AM »

Besides what is quoted above, there are more words of the holy Metropolitan Philaret who was the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad when I was a young man and a very conservative theologian.  He is here speaking of heterodox Christians but I would think he would say the same about Jews and others:


  It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman
Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox
confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who
knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are
living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do
the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not
been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The
Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who
enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is
leading them also towards salvation In His own way."


Father, do you have a source for this quote? 
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2010, 09:49:31 AM »

Besides what is quoted above, there are more words of the holy Metropolitan Philaret who was the First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad when I was a young man and a very conservative theologian.  He is here speaking of heterodox Christians but I would think he would say the same about Jews and others:


  It is self evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman
Catholics, or Lutherans, or members, of other non-Orthodox
confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics—i.e. those who
knowingly pervert the truth... They have been born and raised and are
living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do
the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not
been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The
Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who
enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is
leading them also towards salvation In His own way."


Father, do you have a source for this quote? 

It is from an article by Metropolitan Philaret: “Will the Heterodox be Saved?”

It was published in Jordanville's magazine Orthodox Life, Vol. 34, No. 6 (Nov.-Dec., 1984)

It is on the Forum at

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5582.0
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2010, 10:24:31 AM »

What Met Philaret is expressing is not a dogmatic statement, for sure, but I personally find it very reflective of the consensus of the Church.  
I can't bring myself to believe that that theologoumenon is the consensus of the Church without several patristic quotes.

I don't think that you will find too many Patristic quotes on this matter from Fathers that were pre-schism. Heterox as we define it today was not the same as it was in the early Church. However, Blesses Augustine is quoted as teaching: "many of those who on earth considered themselves to be alien to the Church will find that on the day of Judgment that they are her citizen; and many of those who thought themselves to be members of the Church will, alas, be found to be alien to her.:
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2011, 01:20:29 AM »

Oriental Orthodox.......The Oriental Orthodox have two opinions.  Most would also allow the salvation of the heterodox but a hard line has emerged among the Coptic Orthodox Church hierarchy and some deny the possibility.
Could you provide some references for this?
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2011, 01:27:31 AM »

Oriental Orthodox.......The Oriental Orthodox have two opinions.  Most would also allow the salvation of the heterodox but a hard line has emerged among the Coptic Orthodox Church hierarchy and some deny the possibility.
Could you provide some references for this?

In haste.  Could you do a search on the forum?

Use Irish Hermit as the author name.

Search for Bishoy
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2011, 02:27:00 AM »

Oriental Orthodox.......The Oriental Orthodox have two opinions.  Most would also allow the salvation of the heterodox but a hard line has emerged among the Coptic Orthodox Church hierarchy and some deny the possibility.

You are essentially right about this. I don't know what bearing it has on Alexandria's daughter churches, though.

And the weird thing is that is a half-assed hard line, as the same Copts who are so sure that all non-Orthodox will be eternally damned maintain that the folks of your church may be saved. I think they've just gone bonkers.
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2011, 02:28:28 AM »

Oriental Orthodox.......The Oriental Orthodox have two opinions.  Most would also allow the salvation of the heterodox but a hard line has emerged among the Coptic Orthodox Church hierarchy and some deny the possibility.
Could you provide some references for this?

In haste.  Could you do a search on the forum?

Use Irish Hermit as the author name.

Search for Bishoy

Ah yes, Metropolitan Bishoy who appears to have said that Roman Catholics in general will be damned.

And he seems to be lined up to become the next Pope.

*sigh*
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2011, 04:12:00 AM »

In regards to the statements made about the Coptic Orthodox Church:

As a member of the Coptic Orthodox Church for the past 18 years, I have neve heard the sentiment that all Catholic and Protestants will be damned. Indeed, the first time I heard about that kind of thing was...here. From everything I have been taught in my life, the general teaching is that it is not the Church's position to say on this matter.

This is common between the EO and OO: We know where the Orthodox Church is, we do not know where it is not.
Some of us, including myself, have strong desires for the reconciliation of not only the EO and the OO, but all of the Christian world. Please do not attempt to create conflict when none should exist. I understand that certain statements were made; please do not characterize the Coptic Church by them. I have been a member of the Coptic Church for my entire life, been in both Egypt and America, and those sentiments which you point out do not characterize the Coptic people. I have never met anybody who holds such views.

 I ask you, with all my heart, to not let this create strife. My position, undoubtedly, is lowly; I am only eighteen years old, have few posts on this forum, and lack the breadth of knowledge that most have here. I just felt compelled to comment on this issue.

In Christ,
Bishoy

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2011, 04:57:51 AM »

Pishoy, you must have had a pretty protected existence, as I've met a number of Copts who have made it clear that they expected all Catholics and Protestants to be damned.
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2011, 05:04:35 AM »

No, it has not been protected at all. The exact opposite, really. I'm sorry, but I'm going to take the opinions of all the Coptic people I have known in and from Egypt more seriously in this matter. But, honestly, we could both just say what we have heard and not make it anywhere. I do not want that. I am just confessing what I have been raised to know.
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2011, 05:20:21 AM »

You seem to have assumed, on the basis of a possible experience of swaths of Coptic people not holding to this teaching, that it simply is not at all commonly held. On this basis, you asserted that it simply is not a common stream of thought in the Coptic consciousness. But the fact that I have talked to a number of Copts who have assumed that to be the orthodox doctrine proves that you weren't being honest. You can deny all you want, but there really is no reason to doubt my experience, and the logical implication of it was that you were simply wrong. Logic will testify for that in spite of your denial.
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bishoy
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2011, 05:35:49 AM »

I am not "denying" anything; rather, I am proclaiming something. Regardless, I am not interested in participating in this argument you have instigated. That is not why I joined these forums, nor why posted on this thread. I apologize for any rudeness I have expressed towards you.

In Christ,
Bishoy

« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 05:36:33 AM by bishoy » Logged
Irish Hermit
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2011, 07:02:38 AM »

Dear William,

I imagine that this will provide an overview of the patristic teaching.

"The Non-Orthodox: The Orthodox Teaching on Christians Outside of the Church"
by Patrick Barnes

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/status.aspx
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pensateomnia
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metron ariston


« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 09:18:55 AM »

For those interested in this topic: There will be an international conference at Princeton University in Feb 2012 on the patristic doctrine of the Church. Several of the speakers will be addressing issues related to the boundaries of the church, sacraments, etc.

More info: http://www.princeton.edu/~florov/patristic_symposium.html
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Seraphim98
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2011, 02:01:18 PM »

Speaking personally, I tend to agree with Metropolitan Philaret on this issue. That said, I've encountered some anecdotal information I find both convincing and in accord with what the Metropolitan said.

Several years ago my cousin, who is an Orthodox convert was out with her children in a double stroller. One was a baby and one just barely past toddler stage. She came to an intersection and started to cross the street when the safe crossing light flashed. As she stepped out into the crossing she heard my grandmother's voice very clearly, "Get those babies out of the road, now!" It so startled my cousin, she jumped back on to the sidewalk stroller in tow. That instant a drunk driver ran the red light and roared right thorough where they had started to cross a second or two before.

Now, our grandmother was of course deceased, and she was not Orthodox. She was born, raised, and buried Southern Baptist. She was devout, God loving, sweet natured, and always doing her work with a hymn on her lips.

If she were condemned and awaiting the final judgement as heterodox, it would seem odd to me that she would be permitted/be able to save the life of her granddaughter and two of her great grandchildren by her warning.

But that's just my take on it.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 02:02:32 PM by Seraphim98 » Logged
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