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Author Topic: In Defense of IPC Against Irish Hermit's Unwarranted Criticism  (Read 9919 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irish Hermit
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« on: January 02, 2010, 01:27:39 AM »

CONTEXT NOTE:  The following discussion started HERE.  - PtA



My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 09:23:32 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2010, 01:21:37 AM »


My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.
Actually, I rather like this advice to pray, repent, and sincerely seek God so that we will permit Him to enlighten us.  Isn't this what all Christians should be doing?  Who's to say this will necessarily lead us to leave our churches and join IPC's?  AFAIK, it may lead us to a deeper understanding of IPC's church and why we shouldn't join it.

BTW, Irish Hermit, if you think this post from IPC to be such blatant proselytization, a violation of forum policy, why didn't you report it to the moderators?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 01:23:03 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2010, 02:23:21 AM »


My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.
Actually, I rather like this advice to pray, repent, and sincerely seek God so that we will permit Him to enlighten us.  Isn't this what all Christians should be doing?  Who's to say this will necessarily lead us to leave our churches and join IPC's?  AFAIK, it may lead us to a deeper understanding of IPC's church and why we shouldn't join it.

I think this interpretation of IPC's word is not what he wanted to tell us.  He simply wanted to say that if we repented and prayed about our Church membership the Lord will show us that we the Orthodox are in heresy and He will lead us to the True Church.

Quote
BTW, Irish Hermit, if you think this post from IPC to be such blatant proselytization, a violation of forum policy, why didn't you report it to the moderators?

Peter, even though I chose the name of Irish Hermit when I joined the Forum many years ago, so long ago I cannot remember why I chose Irish Hermit, I am a priest every moment of my life and in every situation and encounter.  It is my "job" to send a warning signal to the faithful when an invitation to leave the Church is offered, and on an Orthodox Forum by a person who had done nothing but attack the Orthodox Church during his time with us.   And I should not really need to send a warning to the Moderators; it is their mandate to watch over the list and moderate it, to deal with attempts to entice Orthodox people to leave the Church.  By all means, allow a poster to post a few messages critical of Orthodoxy but this person is waging a campaign to take people out of the Church.  I hope this explanation has anwered your question about why I acted as I did; it is my priestly responsibility.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 02:27:11 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 02:53:55 AM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Be a man and stop hitting round the bush Irish Hermit. If you have the nerve to attack, be accountable and either back up what you say, or say you're sorry, mean it and stop it right now Smiley

Sorry if I offend anyone with my humour, Christmas is coming, and man I'm happy! That's why I'm in the playful mood now.

Note, I am making it clear I'm fooling round, I'm not name calling anyone.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 03:03:36 AM by IPC » Logged

THIS USER USED THE SCREEN NAME PRAVOSLAV09 BEFORE.
PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 03:17:44 AM »


My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.


This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.
Actually, I rather like this advice to pray, repent, and sincerely seek God so that we will permit Him to enlighten us.  Isn't this what all Christians should be doing?  Who's to say this will necessarily lead us to leave our churches and join IPC's?  AFAIK, it may lead us to a deeper understanding of IPC's church and why we shouldn't join it.

I think this interpretation of IPC's word is not what he wanted to tell us.  He simply wanted to say that if we repented and prayed about our Church membership the Lord will show us that we the Orthodox are in heresy and He will lead us to the True Church.
So what if this is what he wanted to say?  He didn't actually say this, did he?  Why do you feel the need to read between the lines? Huh  AISI, IPC left his words intentionally vague and open to interpretation in a plethora of different ways.  So we follow his advice...  Undecided  If it backfires against him, what have we lost?

Quote
BTW, Irish Hermit, if you think this post from IPC to be such blatant proselytization, a violation of forum policy, why didn't you report it to the moderators?

Peter, even though I chose the name of Irish Hermit when I joined the Forum many years ago, so long ago I cannot remember why I chose Irish Hermit, I am a priest every moment of my life and in every situation and encounter.  It is my "job" to send a warning signal to the faithful when an invitation to leave the Church is offered, and on an Orthodox Forum by a person who had done nothing but attack the Orthodox Church during his time with us.   And I should not really need to send a warning to the Moderators; it is their mandate to watch over the list and moderate it, to deal with attempts to entice Orthodox people to leave the Church.
But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  This is not conducive to good discussion here, so we essentially don't make any official distinction between churches that call themselves Orthodox with such statements as "this church body is in the Church, but that one is out," nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support.  This puts on us the responsibility to defend the rights of all Orthodox Christians who otherwise abide by our rules to discuss whatever issues they would like to discuss with us.  If you don't like the message, feel free to speak your opinion, but don't assert some priestly prerogative to use bully tactics to defend the Church as you know it.

By all means, allow a poster to post a few messages critical of Orthodoxy but this person is waging a campaign to take people out of the Church.  I hope this explanation has anwered your question about why I acted as I did; it is my priestly responsibility.
And it is our administrative responsibility to make sure every poster has the freedom to represent what he believes to be the Orthodox faith.  We're not here to protect the Irish Hermitite Orthodox Church against criticism, so we have no responsibility to act against IPC the way you would like us to act.  Again, feel free to speak your opinion, but if you think IPC is trying to take people away from other jurisdictions into his own, please let the moderators know; don't take the moderation of this forum into your own hands if you don't like the way we do things here.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 03:25:47 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 03:51:01 AM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Sergianism.... are you saying that an Orthodox priest is infected with heresy?  It kind of eludes me why you say that it is an attempt at humour.  The Russian Churcvh Abroad has always looked upon Sergianism with great alarm.


Sergianism
Sergianism is somewhat more nuanced as a heresy, and finds its origin in the capitulation of Metropolitan Sergius in 1927 to the Soviet state, during which he publicly associated the "sorrows" of the anti-Christian authorities with the suffering of the Church. A definition for Sergianism is at times difficult to clarify, but it has been best defined as the Church submitting to the worldly authorities for the sake of its own survival.

http://trueorthodox.freehostia.com/index.html

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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 03:58:44 AM »

But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  
 

I have no information that the Zarist Church is an Old Calendarist group and there is no connection between what I am saying about it and Old Calendarist Churches. 

If anybody is in doubt as to the status of the Zarist Church within Orthodoxy the best recourse is to consult your priest or your bishop.

I beiefly mentioned the Zarists to my Metropolitan when he was visiting.  He said he has not heard of this Church and it is not an Orthodox Church. 
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2010, 04:07:38 AM »

 If you don't like the message, feel free to speak your opinion, but don't assert some priestly prerogative to use bully tactics to defend the Church as you know it.


I have spoken not my opinion but the truth.  Encouraging people to leave the salvific enclosure of the Church is endangering their salvation.  It is not "bully tactics" to make this clear to the Orthodox whether the warning comes from an Orthodox priest or any Orthodox layperson.  You see this as an exercise of "priestly prerogative"; I see it as exercising priestly responsibility and something which I shall answer for on the last Day before the Saviour.

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« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2010, 04:20:45 AM »


But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  This is not conducive to good discussion here, so we essentially don't make any official distinction between churches that call themselves Orthodox with such statements as "this church body is in the Church, but that one is out," nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support.

Then please allow an official supporting statement to be presented from all the canonical Orthodox Churches.  Of course they are not specific about those whom they are calling schismatic and extremist and they may or may not be including any True Old Calendarist Churches.   But there is no doubt they are certainly judging some Churches to be schismatic and extremist.  We need to ask our bishops to clarify this for us, just what groups and Churches do they judge as schismatic?

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/resources/documents/wcc-programmes/ecumenical-movement-in-the-21st-century/member-churches/special-commission-on-participation-of-orthodox-churches/first-plenary-meeting-documents-december-1999/05-98-thessaloniki-statement.html

1. We delegates of all the canonical Orthodox Churches, by the power of the Risen Christ, gathered at the historical city of Thessaloniki, Greece from 29 April to 2 May 1998, after an invitation of His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, responding to the initiative of the Russian and Serbian Churches...

4. The delegates unanimously denounced those groups of schismatics, as well as certain extremist groups within the local Orthodox Churches themselves, that are using the theme of ecumenism in order to criticize the Church leadership and undermine its authority, thus attempting to create divisions and schisms within the Church. They also use non-factual material and misinformation in order to support their unjust criticism.
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« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2010, 04:50:44 AM »


But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  This is not conducive to good discussion here, so we essentially don't make any official distinction between churches that call themselves Orthodox with such statements as "this church body is in the Church, but that one is out," nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support.

Then please allow an official supporting statement to be presented from all the canonical Orthodox Churches.  Of course they are not specific about those whom they are calling schismatic and extremist and they may or may not be including any True Old Calendarist Churches.   But there is no doubt they are certainly judging some Churches to be schismatic and extremist.  We need to ask our bishops to clarify this for us, just what groups and Churches do they judge as schismatic?
So, what do you want us to do with this information?  Do you want us to kowtow to this body's definitions of "canonical" and "schismatic" in our administration of this forum?  What of those of our admins and moderators who are not in those churches deemed canonical?
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« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2010, 05:13:17 AM »

 If you don't like the message, feel free to speak your opinion, but don't assert some priestly prerogative to use bully tactics to defend the Church as you know it.


I have spoken not my opinion but the truth.  Encouraging people to leave the salvific enclosure of the Church is endangering their salvation.
I don't disagree with this.  But that's not my point.

It is not "bully tactics" to make this clear to the Orthodox whether the warning comes from an Orthodox priest or any Orthodox layperson.  You see this as an exercise of "priestly prerogative"; I see it as exercising priestly responsibility and something which I shall answer for on the last Day before the Saviour.
The problem, though, is not that you see it necessary to speak against anyone who, in your perception, is trying to draw people away from the Church.  The problem is that you have defined the boundaries of the Church, proclaimed that some specific members of this forum are outside the Church as you have defined it, and have even branded some of them enemies of the Church.  Having done all this, you have then launched campaigns against these "enemies" to try to have them silenced or bully them into silence yourself.

Need I point out how detrimental this is to free discussion on this forum?  This forum is not here to make sure that only one definition of the Church is proclaimed as Orthodox while we condemn all others.  This is a place for open discussion and exchange of beliefs, some of which you will find agreeable and some of which you will not find so agreeable.  Again, if you don't agree with another person's point of view, feel free to express your opinion and offer cogent arguments in your favor.  But don't try to bully Orthodox of other "non-canonical" jurisdictions into silence because you think them enemies of the Church trying to draw the faithful into schism.
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« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2010, 05:24:24 AM »


But then you're acting on your definition of the Church, which has essentially branded our traditionalist Old Calendarists as schismatic.  This is not conducive to good discussion here, so we essentially don't make any official distinction between churches that call themselves Orthodox with such statements as "this church body is in the Church, but that one is out," nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support.

Then please allow an official supporting statement to be presented from all the canonical Orthodox Churches.  Of course they are not specific about those whom they are calling schismatic and extremist and they may or may not be including any True Old Calendarist Churches.   But there is no doubt they are certainly judging some Churches to be schismatic and extremist.  We need to ask our bishops to clarify this for us, just what groups and Churches do they judge as schismatic?
So, what do you want us to do with this information?


You may use it as you please of course.  I was only responding to your  "nor do we encourage other posters to make such absolute statements without support"  and offering the desired support from a pan-Orthodox statement.

Quote
  Do you want us to kowtow to this body's definitions of "canonical" and "schismatic" in our administration of this forum?
 

My eyebrows are somewhat raised at the thought of an Orthodox person speaking of "kowtowing" to an official statement issued by "this body" [sic].   Whether one is in the canonical Churches of the Orthodox world or in one of the True Orthodox Churches one would expect some deference to their respective official statements.
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2010, 05:29:43 AM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Be a man and stop hitting round the bush Irish Hermit. If you have the nerve to attack, be accountable and either back up what you say, or say you're sorry, mean it and stop it right now Smiley

Sorry if I offend anyone with my humour, Christmas is coming, and man I'm happy! That's why I'm in the playful mood now.

Note, I am making it clear I'm fooling round, I'm not name calling anyone.
I don't believe that you have as of yet met Fr. Ambrose's challenge, and named the nonexistant bishops for whom we should abandon our real bishops.
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2010, 05:32:48 AM »

Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.

Sergianism.... are you saying that an Orthodox priest is infected with heresy?  It kind of eludes me why you say that it is an attempt at humour.  The Russian Churcvh Abroad has always looked upon Sergianism with great alarm.


Sergianism
Sergianism is somewhat more nuanced as a heresy, and finds its origin in the capitulation of Metropolitan Sergius in 1927 to the Soviet state, during which he publicly associated the "sorrows" of the anti-Christian authorities with the suffering of the Church. A definition for Sergianism is at times difficult to clarify, but it has been best defined as the Church submitting to the worldly authorities for the sake of its own survival.

http://trueorthodox.freehostia.com/index.html



I'm afraid that the Zarist Church was Segian ever since Peter I.  So that would leave IPC utterly without grace.
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2010, 05:37:42 AM »

[The problem, though, is not that you see it necessary to speak against anyone who, in your perception, is trying to draw people away from the Church.  The problem is that you have defined the boundaries of the Church,
 

As an Orthodox priest I am aware of the boundaries of the Church as defined by my bishops.

I dio not see why this would iritate you.  Surely your bishops are also able to define the boundaries of the Orthodox Church?   Fior example, Fr Anastasios' Church and nearly all the Old Calendarist Churches say that my Church and all the Churches of "world Orthodoxy" are NOT the Church and do not have the Holy Mysteries.  For them we are the unChurch.   IPC has also said this in a myriad of ways.  I find it offensive that he says so.

Quote
proclaimed that some specific members of this forum are outside the Church as you have defined it, and have even branded some of them enemies of the Church.

Not "as I have defined it" but as the Church defines it.

I have noticed that this is a permanent theme of what IPC writes but he is not upbraided for it.

 
Quote
Need I point out how detrimental this is to free discussion on this forum?  This forum is not here to make sure that only one definition of the Church is proclaimed as Orthodox while we condemn all others.

Yet this is what IPC does over and over.     

Quote
But don't try to bully Orthodox of other "non-canonical" jurisdictions into silence because you think them enemies of the Church trying to draw the faithful into schism.

I have watched in horror as IPC has badmouthed the newly reposed holy Patriarch Pavle and labelled him an enemy of the Church.   He is now labelling me as a Sergianist, and that puts me outside the Church and in the camp of the Church's enemies.
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2010, 05:40:00 AM »

My eyebrows are somewhat raised at the thought of an Orthodox person speaking of "kowtowing" to an official statement issued by "this body" [sic].   Whether one is in the canonical Churches of the Orthodox world or in one of the True Orthodox Churches one would expect some deference to their respective official statements.
Why?  What makes the statements "official"?
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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2010, 05:50:23 AM »

My eyebrows are somewhat raised at the thought of an Orthodox person speaking of "kowtowing" to an official statement issued by "this body" [sic].   Whether one is in the canonical Churches of the Orthodox world or in one of the True Orthodox Churches one would expect some deference to their respective official statements.
Why?  What makes the statements "official"?

If you refer to the Statement which I linked, it was issued by "all the canonical Orthodox Churches" at a pan-Orthodox meeting in Thessaloniki.

If that is not adequate, would you set out the criteria you desire before you accept a Statement as official?

Do you accept the OP Statement as "official"?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 05:51:31 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2010, 09:22:40 AM »

My eyebrows are somewhat raised at the thought of an Orthodox person speaking of "kowtowing" to an official statement issued by "this body" [sic].   Whether one is in the canonical Churches of the Orthodox world or in one of the True Orthodox Churches one would expect some deference to their respective official statements.
Why?  What makes the statements "official"?

If you refer to the Statement which I linked, it was issued by "all the canonical Orthodox Churches" at a pan-Orthodox meeting in Thessaloniki.

If that is not adequate, would you set out the criteria you desire before you accept a Statement as official?
Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

Do you accept the OP Statement as "official"?
Why does it matter if I do or not?
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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2010, 09:27:57 AM »

 
Quote
Need I point out how detrimental this is to free discussion on this forum?  This forum is not here to make sure that only one definition of the Church is proclaimed as Orthodox while we condemn all others.

Yet this is what IPC does over and over.
Yet he provides supporting statements and has not shown any desire to see his opponents silenced.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 01:06:16 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2010, 01:45:57 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 01:46:21 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2010, 02:22:03 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2010, 02:31:41 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
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« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2010, 03:57:49 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.
World Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2010, 04:01:29 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
We have yet, as far as I have seen, seen any proof that this "Zarist Orthodox Church" is Orthodox at all.  This is in contrast, for instance, with Fr. Ambrose, Fr. Cleveland, Fr. Anastosios, etc.  We know who is Salpy's Catholicos, we know who Ekhsristos Anesti's Pope is.  But it seems this "Zarist" church has a decidely Protestant make up, and hence, not Orthodox at all.
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« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2010, 07:06:36 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
Yes, I know.  But why would you suggest that the Forum should formally embrace an official definition of Orthodoxy and the Church that would in essence permit us to silence any poster you deem a threat?
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« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2010, 07:12:29 PM »

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

Hmmm...I don't think anyone wants OC.net to fall under one jurisdiction of bishops. But the type you have placed in bold sounds almost like a protestant form of independence. So no priest who comes to this forum has a right to warn others when wolves come on the forum to confuse the faithful? That sounds a little like censorship to me.
This site already has enough atheists on it who have confused Orthodox inquirers to join them.
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« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2010, 07:15:31 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
We have yet, as far as I have seen, seen any proof that this "Zarist Orthodox Church" is Orthodox at all.  This is in contrast, for instance, with Fr. Ambrose, Fr. Cleveland, Fr. Anastosios, etc.  We know who is Salpy's Catholicos, we know who Ekhsristos Anesti's Pope is.  But it seems this "Zarist" church has a decidely Protestant make up, and hence, not Orthodox at all.
Yes, that disturbs me as well.  I do wish that IPC would just tell us what his jurisdiction is, who his bishop is, just as a common courtesy to those who would like to know.  I find it unsettling that he would make such a point of hiding behind the veil of anonymity as he has.  However, until he does tell us more about his church, all we have is his claim that he is Orthodox.  I am therefore inclined to grant him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is a member of a traditionalist Orthodox jurisdiction at enmity with Moscow as he says he is, and I recommend that you do the same.
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« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2010, 07:24:12 PM »

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

Hmmm...I don't think anyone wants OC.net to fall under one jurisdiction of bishops. But the type you have placed in bold sounds almost like a protestant form of independence.
How so?

So no priest who comes to this forum has a right to warn others when wolves come on the forum to confuse the faithful? That sounds a little like censorship to me.
But this isn't about a priest warning others of the "wolves" in our midst, Tamara.  This is about one priest's apparent desire to see someone censored as a threat to his established order.

This site already has enough atheists on it who have confused Orthodox inquirers to join them.
So are you suggesting that we should silence all atheists?
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« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2010, 07:26:17 PM »

This site already has enough atheists on it who have confused Orthodox inquirers to join them.
Thats a pretty hefty claim. Can you back it up?
Who, apart from GiC claims to be an atheist? And who has joined him?

So no priest who comes to this forum has a right to warn others when wolves come on the forum to confuse the faithful?
Why do you need a priest to do it? Are they oracles or something? This is a discussion forum. If someone makes a false claim, someone quotes the Fathers to point out the error. It doesn't have to be a Priest. You have to get over this guru worship thing.
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« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2010, 07:30:20 PM »

As I've stated before, last time I checked, IPC was under one of the bishops of a non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction. As to why he doesn't just come out and say which jurisdiction that is and who his bishop is, is something he can best explain himself.
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« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2010, 07:36:06 PM »

As I've stated before, last time I checked, IPC was under one of the bishops of a non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction. As to why he doesn't just come out and say which jurisdiction that is and who his bishop is, is something he can best explain himself.

Ooo! Ooo! Can I hazard a guess as to why he doesn't say it himself? Because of the very types of attacks he's received from posters on the forum because of his jurisdiction, including attempts to discredit him because of it.
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« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2010, 07:39:58 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
Yes, I know.  But why would you suggest that the Forum should formally embrace an official definition of Orthodoxy and the Church that would in essence permit us to silence any poster you deem a threat?

Dear Peter,

I have not suggested anything of the sort.  I heartily dislike IPC's unrelenting campaign against the Orthodox Church on the world's largest Orthodox Forum.  One or two anti-Orthodox messages would be acceptable but a flood of them....?  They cause scandal, they harm the weaker brethren, they cause confusion among those enquiring into the Faith.

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« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2010, 07:40:36 PM »

Since I've been talking a bit about the administration and moderation of this forum, let me ask you this.  If the statement is "official", what authority does it have over this forum?

The Apostle says to us: "Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you."  Hebrews 13:17.  Whether Orthodox Christians who are involved with Internet Forums are exempt from Saint Paul's instructions is something we would need to discuss with our bishops.  If one of my parishioners were to ask my advice I would say that we must be obedient to the teachings of the Apostles and their successors irrespective of venue.

But you do realize how many different jurisdictions are represented on this forum, even among the admin/moderator team?  Why should Orthodox of one jurisdiction recognize as authoritative the mandate laid down by the bishop(s) of another with which they may not even be in communion?  Would you rather this forum fall under the oversight of one synod--I presume one of your choosing--thus making OC.net merely an extension of that synod's jurisdiction?  How many of us would then leave for finding the forum too exclusive?  The beauty of this forum, IMO, is that it is NOT dependent upon the authority of any one bishop or synod of bishops--we enjoy an independence that makes us truly representative of the whole of Orthodox Christianity.

My quarrel is not with the Byzantine Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, the Church of the East or the True Old Orthodox.  It is with the member of the Zarist Church whose every posting and every thread started by him is destructive of Orthodoxy especially of either the Russian Orthodox Church of which I am a member or the Serbian Orthodox Church of which I was a member most of my life.
We have yet, as far as I have seen, seen any proof that this "Zarist Orthodox Church" is Orthodox at all.  This is in contrast, for instance, with Fr. Ambrose, Fr. Cleveland, Fr. Anastosios, etc.  We know who is Salpy's Catholicos, we know who Ekhsristos Anesti's Pope is.  But it seems this "Zarist" church has a decidely Protestant make up, and hence, not Orthodox at all.
Yes, that disturbs me as well.  I do wish that IPC would just tell us what his jurisdiction is, who his bishop is, just as a common courtesy to those who would like to know.  I find it unsettling that he would make such a point of hiding behind the veil of anonymity as he has.  However, until he does tell us more about his church, all we have is his claim that he is Orthodox.  I am therefore inclined to grant him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is a member of a traditionalist Orthodox jurisdiction at enmity with Moscow as he says he is, and I recommend that you do the same.
Uh, no.
I understand why you might be so inclined/have to be so inclined on this/moderating this board to not dealve too deeply at the bald claim "Orthodox," but the rule has always been on Baptism, Marriage, Ordination, Consecration etc. don't assume, some proof must be provided.

One can be a traditionalist Orthodox jurisdiction against the PoM, as several of the ROCORettes show, but they actually have bishops etc. who stick their faces out and say their piece against the PoM accusing him of cowing to the authorities.  But bishops, if they exist, cowering from non-existent persecusion (as is the case in the West) in the dark while they accuse the bishops who carried the burden of millions of souls-and lives-under the Soviets...such are not worthy of any credence.

And somehow Fr. Anastasios manages to present his case without banging the same note, and defend/present Orthodoxy as he sees it without harping on Orthodox who disagree.  IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
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« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2010, 07:46:46 PM »

But this isn't about a priest warning others of the "wolves" in our midst, Tamara.

That is however how I see it.

Quote
This is about one priest's apparent desire to see someone censored as a threat to his established order.

An incorrect understanding of my motivation.    Please look in my previous messages.

P.S.  Do you perceive the Zarists as a threat to the established order of the Russian Orthoodx Church?  In what way?
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« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2010, 07:47:11 PM »

IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy? Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble? And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
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« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2010, 07:49:00 PM »

As I've stated before, last time I checked, IPC was under one of the bishops of a non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction.

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
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« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2010, 07:50:26 PM »

But this isn't about a priest warning others of the "wolves" in our midst, Tamara.

That is however how I see it.

Welcome to irishhermit.net.
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« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2010, 07:52:23 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
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« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2010, 07:59:56 PM »

And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions?

A priest most certainly has the authority, and the duty, to uphold the Orthodox Churches (jurisdictions as the Americans say) and to point out the dangers to the faithful when the integrity of the Church is attacked, more so when the purpose of the attack is to weaken and destroy faith in the Church.

This thread commences with an attack on my Patriarch in a statement issued by 3 or 4 bishops of a Church of which I have never heard.  Should a priest smile and roll over?  Allow his Patriarch to be denigrated?
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« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2010, 08:00:12 PM »

Tamara,

Quote
This site already has enough atheists on it who have confused Orthodox inquirers to join them.

I don't know if you were partly thinking of me when you said this, but since GiC is the only other regular poster I know who has claimed to be an atheist over the past half dozen years, I'll say a few things just in case. I became an atheist in early Jan. of 2006. It was not because of the influence of any atheists, and certainly none here on OC.net, that this happened, and I believe this predated GiC's own turn towards atheism. Since around May of 2008, I have not identified as an atheist. Since then I've sometimes identified as agnostic, sometimes deist, sometimes Orthodox, and sometimes I'm not sure, but whatever the case, not atheist. And if it puts your mind at ease any, during my time here, no one has contacted me and said something like "I think I'm gonna consider becoming an atheist now". Some members here have indeed left Orthodoxy, but I think GiC is the only regular member or even newbie inquirer who has become and remained an atheist, and even in his case I very much doubt that anyone here led him into it or confused him.
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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2010, 08:02:08 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then?  Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2010, 08:17:57 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have. I'm an oracle you see.

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
My Archbishop didn't know the Synod in Resistance and the Matthewites in Australia were different jurisdictions either. To him they were just "Paleoemerologites". If bishops are not in communion, why would they know about one another?
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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2010, 08:24:59 PM »

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
What exactly are you implying here? Do you think Fr. Anastasios is lying?
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« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2010, 08:26:03 PM »

Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.

Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have.

Months ago, when a member of the Zarist Church first came on the Forum.

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.
   
Quote
My Archbishop didn't know the Synod in Resistance and the Matthewites in Australia were different jurisdictions either. To him they were just "Paleoemerologites". If bishops are not in communion, why would they know about one another?

My Metropolitan is the Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and has an intimate and often first-hand knowledge of the ROCOR splinter groups and their bishops.   Prior to becoming Metropolitan he already had an encyclopaedic knowledge of Orthodox vagante groups; it is one of his interests.
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« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2010, 08:29:09 PM »

Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
What exactly are you implying here? Do you think Fr. Anastasios is lying?

I would be very surprised if your question about lying were true.  In fact I would be sure it is not.

Perhaps we could politely ask Fr Anastasios to write about what he knows of the Zarist Church.... I do not imagine he has been sworn to secrecy.
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