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Author Topic: The Holy Virgin Appears in Egypt  (Read 16663 times) Average Rating: 0
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soufliotiki
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« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2009, 05:22:49 AM »

I don't think EA was being critical of you.  He was just countering your opinion of the situation with his own.  That is something we do a lot here.  Your opinion is valued and you are very welcome to continue to post your thoughts.  You just need to know that others who disagree will state their disagreement.  That is the nature of our discussions here.   Smiley 

Thanks for the smile ... right back at ya! No, I never said or thought that EA was critical of me .. I have been following his style of posting for a while and he does not strike me as someone that is offensive nor did I take offense. WRiting styles often portray emotions that may not exist on the side of the person writing ... and that is purely lack of grammatical/writing skill Smiley

Now, wrt my thoughts I will be blunt since I know no other way but I put forward an apology to those who are Coptic and ask that they do not take the comment personal or in reflection to how they as individuals believe.

In brief, since I do not believe that the Coptic church is canonical ... I can not believe the apparation is that of the Theotokos but that of an angel of light - who is fallen.

Next, you ask - what does the devil have to gain? Well, IF you look at it in light of how I am viewing it (non-Canonical church) then the devil stands to gain a lot by confusing the simple and innocent people into being part of a non-canonical church and, thus, being involved in the mysteries in the fulness of the glory.

On the other hand, I can also see the other side of the debate, that if the apparation is indeed the Theotokos then there are some serious inter faith ramifications ... 
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« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2009, 05:31:31 AM »

What ever happened to we walk by Faith not by sight.....
Blessed are they that believe and have not seen.......
I'm really skeptical about any of these Apparitions.......

We do walk by faith and ultimately God calls each of us individually and uniquelly and we all reply uniquelly and individually by faith in someone we have not seen but we "feel" - that is faith. But Scripture is not just of faith but of works - in synergy - and that is a topic for another thread, of course.

Its an interesting thing, I believe in miracles and am not very much suprised by situations that are 'signs' and signs of a unusual nature ... however, even within the Orthodox church (keep the issues of inter-faith separate for a moment) ... if someone told me they saw the Theotokos as LIGHT - it is the one form of miracle that straight away I dismiss regardless of whether is was orthodox, coptic, Roman catholic - whatever and especially if many people are involved ... that is just me of course Smiley and the reason I mentioned two posts ago is because it is not a miracle that resembles humility.
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« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2009, 07:16:29 AM »

Soufliotiki,

Quote
No, I never said or thought that EA was critical of me

Well the tone of your response would suggest you took it rather personally when all I did was address your points and general approach. My reference to you "over thinking" things was (as the context makes clear) intended to highlight the fact you were speculating about matters which lie beyond any practical means of proper investigation and for which we can sit here and make hypotheses all day long.

Quote
In brief, since I do not believe that the Coptic church is canonical ... I can not believe the apparation is that of the Theotokos

In other words, you really have nothing useful/helpful to contribute to this particular thread. I don't mean this as a personal attack, but as a justified inference. To elucidate my point further, the reason your position is not helpful/useful here is because you express an opinion that is determined by an underlying presupposition (viz., your understanding of the default implications of your confessional prejudice) that is beyond the scope and concern of this thread's topic, and as such, one that is incapable of fostering helpful/useful dialogue on the matter.

Quote
and the reason I mentioned two posts ago is because it is not a miracle that resembles humility.

It's your prerogative to ignore my response to this point, of course, but I think it's bad etiquette to reiterate a point that has been addressed, as if it has not been addressed, after it has in fact already been addressed.
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« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2009, 12:29:00 PM »

In brief, since I do not believe that the Coptic church is canonical ... I can not believe the apparation is that of the Theotokos but that of an angel of light - who is fallen.

Next, you ask - what does the devil have to gain? Well, IF you look at it in light of how I am viewing it (non-Canonical church) then the devil stands to gain a lot by confusing the simple and innocent people into being part of a non-canonical church and, thus, being involved in the mysteries in the fulness of the glory.

On the other hand, I can also see the other side of the debate, that if the apparation is indeed the Theotokos then there are some serious inter faith ramifications ... 

Thanks for explaining yourself more fully.  This helps us understand better where you are coming from.  I just need to let you and everyone else know that if you or anyone else wishes to pursue this particular point much further, it needs to be done in the private forum. 

Thanks.   Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2009, 03:05:43 PM »

I think this really brings us the the crux of the matter. I wonder if this happened in Russia during the Soviet Era in a time of persecution and the underground heirarchy approved its authenticity, what would EO Christians around the world be saying?

This post on a blog summarizes it well:

Quote
If I were to rely on my own sensibilities, I would say this is not the Theotokos and is more likely a deceiving spirit or something else that an investigation could probably uncover. Purposeless visions of the Holy Virgin are against Holy Tradition and according to the Saints of Orthodoxy are rare and solely reserved for those who can accept such visions in the utmost humility. It would be disappointing if this were true because not only would it confirm the schismatic Copts, but it would undermine the visions of the Saints of Orthodoxy.

Source: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/12/is-virgin-mary-appearing-in-egypt.html#comments

There are too many problems with this line of reasoning, the most obvious to me is the assumption that this miracle's authenticity would somehow be the sole determining factor as to whether the Copts are "true" Christians, forgetting that the Copts have more than enough in our last generation alone to make this threat! Smiley

Somehow what sits most uneasy with people on the EO side is not really the possiblility of this miracle but that it happened in a Coptic Church. Of course, they have no problem with holy snakes and such.

It is nothing new for us...the more we suffer from the hands of all others, the more our Lord and His saints console us.

God bless,
Fr. Kyrillos





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« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2009, 07:37:53 PM »

The Coptic Church many times has oil leaking from its own icons, many of which are the Theotokos icons.  Are those also false miracles under the guise of schismatics, considering that the same thing happens in Russian churches?
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« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2009, 08:30:48 PM »

Mina,

I heard a story from one of our bishops...

A weeping icon of the Theotokos in one of our Coptic churches in Egypt was visited by a Greek Orthodox bishop.  He venerated the icon and took some oil. He went to Greece and anointed a Greek person dying from cancer with the oil from the icon who was then completely healed. The family was so grateful that they asked the bishop to go back to the church and venerate the icon for them and to show gratitude to the Mother of God for the miracle performed for them.

Maybe the EO don't know the long history of a beautiful relationship between Egypt and the Holy Theotokos...who came to Egypt for refuge with her Holy Son. She was most grateful to the Egyptians for their hospitality and kindness and never forgets her children there. Additionally, our church has shown such great devotion to the Theotokos through our unique praises, feasts and other celebrations.

Her visit in 1968 in Zeitun is beyond speculation to anyone with half a heart. It is not just in her appearance but the description of how she bowed to the people, blessed them with the cross and palm branches, and raised her hands in the attitude of prayer, can penetrate any hard heart.  This small clip is a nice introduction to that glorious event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWY7ZqXt6Jg

Another point...the great modern Wonderworker of our Church, St. Pope Kyrillos VI had a strong personal relationship with the Theotokos. It is said by Pearl Zaki, an American lady who investigated and wrote about Zeitun, that she visited him one night and was upset because she had gone to Zeitun and not seen the Virgin.  He told her "tonight you will see her!" and in fact she did see the Virgin on that particular night.  If one calls into question whether Zeitun was from God or Satan, then I suppose they would have to say the same about Pope Kyrillos VI since he would have had to have been delusional or colluding with Satan. That would amount to one in the EO saying that St. Nektarios was satanic.

I understand the psychology of some who find it very hard to reconcile their notion that they are exclusively in the ONE True Church and that our Good Lord and His Holy Mother show otherwise...

God bless,
Fr. Kyrillos



« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 08:32:48 PM by Fr.Kyrillos » Logged
soufliotiki
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« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2009, 08:57:59 PM »

Dear Fr Kyrillos, Mina and others ...

There is a "putting words into the mouths of EO members" undertone with these replies. For the record, just because I am EO it does not mean that I do not believe that miracles occur outside of EO; that is an assumption that has been made by those in this thread. In any case, it is not correct thinking for anyone to assume that miracles occur specific to the authentic church alone (whoever that may be) - the Scriptures are quite clear that salvation is offered to everyone and it is offered fairly - God does not discriminate and gives to everyone equally so that no one can say on the dreaded Judgement Day " ... but Lord, you only loooked after the baptised you never looked after me!"

Miracles belong to the entire world, Orthodox or not Orthodox ...

What we must question carefully and discern is are all miracles of God (even though they give an appearance of being from God).

This question must be asked regardless of whether the miracle occrus for the EO church, the Coptic, Roman Catholic etc ...

As part of the discussion in this thread the comments made are specific to the siting of Mary above the church and not intended for other miracles occuring within the Coptic church (such as weeping icons etc).

As such, and I reiterate, the appearance of the Theotokos as "light" above the church is not typical and in style of true Orthodox miracles and should be viewed with caution. True Orthodox miracles (as testified in the Synaxaria and the writings) have a more humble nature (such as the weeping icons etc).
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« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2009, 09:14:05 PM »

soufliotiki said,

Quote
Now, wrt my thoughts I will be blunt since I know no other way but I put forward an apology to those who are Coptic and ask that they do not take the comment personal or in reflection to how they as individuals believe.

In brief, since I do not believe that the Coptic church is canonical ... I can not believe the apparation is that of the Theotokos but that of an angel of light - who is fallen.

then said,

Quote
For the record, just because I am EO it does not mean that I do not believe that miracles occur outside of EO; that is an assumption that has been made by those in this thread.

And also for the record, because a few shady video clips show light only with a shape, does not mean that the eyewitness accounts of those who have seen it are only of light.

We also have a Synexariom and in it we commemorate the great visit of our pure Mother to Egypt in 1968. Our Orthodox Church has declared that it is in line with Orthodox piety and "style".

God bless,
Fr. Kyrillos
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« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2009, 09:53:54 PM »


Interesting ... you fail to quote me from here:

Quote
Its an interesting thing, I believe in miracles and am not very much suprised by situations that are 'signs' and signs of a unusual nature ... however, even within the Orthodox church (keep the issues of inter-faith separate for a moment) ... if someone told me they saw the Theotokos as LIGHT - it is the one form of miracle that straight away I dismiss regardless of whether is was orthodox, coptic, Roman catholic - whatever and especially if many people are involved ... that is just me of course  and the reason I mentioned two posts ago is because it is not a miracle that resembles humility.

Key element: "it is the one form of miracle that straight away I dismiss regardless of whether is was orthodox, coptic, Roman catholic"

My other points still stand:

1. I do not hold the Coptic church to be canonical.

That does not mean Coptic people are outside of salvation nor are they outside of the help of the Theotokos and the Saints ...

The Church is eternal and I, as a human being, have no way of knowing how our churches may reconcile in the future. There is a fracture to the One Body of Christ and if we reconcile then even now we exist in the present as One church but that does not give us the right to not be loyal and obedient to the traditions and laws passed down to us by the Councils of the Church.

God, however, makes the call on the salvation of His people and not me and its a point I want to make very clear so as to minimise misunderstandings or opportunities to project ideas that are not my own.

2. I do not believe that it was the Theotokos and not all miracles are of God.

This comment stands for the EO, OO, RC, Muslim, Hindu whatever: not all "miracles" in our days are from God but they are permitted by God to test out the our understanding of His Scripture and His Word and an opportunity for all of us to martyr for the Truth regardless of what the world around us thinks of us or our comments ... "anthropoareskia" is a sin.  

The ascetics spend their whole life in strict labour to purify their hearts and yet very few are counted worthy to ever see the Theotokos. It is a rare blessing bestowed only on individuals who are deserving of that ... they are the simple and the lowly in heart and her presence is quiet and humble and gentle. How can Our Holy Mother just appear to thousands? Surely, this makes a mockery of those individuals (Saints) who spend an ascetical lifetime in repentance struggling to achieve purity of heart and reason.

What is the point of going into a spiritual "wilderness" when the Theotokos just appears random - anywhere?

Glory to God for all things, if it was the Theotokos - then I hope that God forgives me ... however, I much rather err on the side of caution and that is personal and there is no point in me further discussing this.

God Bless us all and forgive all of us our sins ... may the nativity bring the Incarnate Word into the hearts of all of us - EO or OO or RC or whoever ...

May we all love Christ in the manner that befits Him and in the manner that He requires of each of us.

Seek first the Kingdom of heaven.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 09:55:36 PM by soufliotiki » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2009, 10:16:53 PM »

There is a "putting words into the mouths of EO members" undertone with these replies.
Actually, I would agree.
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« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2009, 01:51:27 AM »

Dear Soufliotiki,

I try my best not to put words in people's mouths.  I think many people are confused in what seems to me and to others, including Fr. Kyrillos, a self-contradiction where because you don't believe the Coptic Church is canonical, that the light must be from a fallen angel.  Again, you said since we are not canonical, that had to be from an angel of light that is fallen.  What other fallen angel of lights do we know?

On the other hand, I would have no problem with your arguments if you just questioned the miracle on its own merits, not on the premise that the Coptic Church is un-canonical, and then going back and saying that you never believed miracles don't happen outside the Orthodox Church.

That's all we were wondering.  I too become skeptical, but at any miracle, only because it never really adds anything to my personal faith.  But I personally do give credence and veneration to the Zeitoun apparition only because I do think the Theotokos has a role in dispelling disbelief and doubt, and if anything this apparition, standing in between two crosses (where demons tremble), gave Copts more faith than losing it (at least to me, since I personally believe in the canonical nature of our church).

Quote
True Orthodox miracles (as testified in the Synaxaria and the writings) have a more humble nature (such as the weeping icons etc).

So would the miracle of the Holy Fire in Jerusalem be considered not true and not of Orthodox nature?

God bless.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 01:54:20 AM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2009, 02:00:00 AM »

I would have no problem with your arguments if you just questioned the miracle on its own merits, not on the premise that the Coptic Church is un-canonical
Actually, I would agree.
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« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2009, 02:06:42 AM »

There is a "putting words into the mouths of EO members" undertone with these replies.
Actually, I would agree.

I disagree.

In her initial posts it seemed to me that Soufliotiki was saying that one of the reasons she could not believe in the apparition was because of her belief that the Coptic Church is uncanonical.  Fr. Kyrillos and Mina seemed to have the same interpretation that I did and they responded to that point.  Soufliotiki has now further clarified her position.  So now I am going to do my official moderator writing in green thing:

Everyone--

Let's move on.  If this continues to be a discussion on whether apparitions can or cannot appear in the Coptic Church because it is Oriental Orthodox, as opposed to Eastern Orthodox, I will move this portion to the Private Forum, pursuant to forum rules.  If, on the other hand, people want to continue to discuss the merits of the apparition, like whether an apparition of light can be legitimate because it is light, that is fine.
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« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2009, 02:33:51 AM »

In her initial posts it seemed to me that Soufliotiki was saying that one of the reasons she could not believe in the apparition was because of her belief that the Coptic Church is uncanonical.
If you look above your post, you will see that I actually would agree with that too.
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« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2009, 11:08:51 AM »

I'll withhold any judgment on what's going on there but I'll ask this question.

Why would the Coptic's want to deceive the Muslim population with a light show? Wouldn't they fear Muslim retaliation for such a thing??
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« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2009, 02:18:55 PM »

I'll withhold any judgment on what's going on there but I'll ask this question.

Why would the Coptic's want to deceive the Muslim population with a light show? Wouldn't they fear Muslim retaliation for such a thing??

The perpetrator would fear Coptic retaliation first Wink
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« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2009, 06:15:21 PM »

To add to Fr Kyrillos' ,St Mary's miraculous Icon in PORT SAID had been ozzing PURE HEAVENLY FRAGRANT OIL for 19th straight YEAR in 2009.  Let me also add,that a close relative of mine was cured from his terrible glaucoma,while HG Anba Tadros (The Bishop of Port Said) anointed him with this heavenly scented pure OIL in my presence. As he left the church, his troubles were going away ,completely cured of Glaucoma by the evening.Additionaly, his peripheral sight that was lost due to the disease was fully restored. I am a witness to that.

Listen to the story of St Mary's Miraculous Icon in Port Said,Egypt  (A Greek bishop comes back to Egypt to thank the Holy Virgin and other stories)

It seems to me, some folks are just mad and probably jealous that miracles such as never seen before in the history of human kind are happening in a Coptic church time and again, which is not a member of the 'Canonical EO' . That is sad and too bad. The inscrutable problem is similar apparitions and miracles will always continue to take place in the Coptic church. In fact, many miracles go unreported.

The Lord has blessed Egypt. In His book,He says " blessed be Egypt my people". However, i do not think, that is the sole reason why apparitions of the Holy Virgin to thousands of people occur only there. Because had that been the only reason,then such apparitions of the Holy Virgin of this unprecedented magnitude would also have taken place over other Orthodox churchs that do not belong to the Coptic patriarchate; for example, the Greek Orthodox church of Egypt.Well, I am not aware of any.

Forgive me, if I sound crass, but the comments of some people simply put me off.

Glory be to God.
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« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2009, 07:35:40 PM »

 Theres no comparing a miraculous Ikona ,with a moving specter, thats appearing in the shape ,form ,as people precieve it to be, the Holy Virgin...You Can't compare the two.....
A Arab friend ibrahim converted to christianity from islam ,he is from Lebanon while yet living in lebonon his daughter was gravly ill ..he had imams writing passages from the Quran  mixing it in tea forcefeeding it to the daughter for her recovery nothing worked nada ,doctors said she was dying...
In his despair he didn't know what to do ...

He met a minister while he was walking they started to talk, he told the minister his situation about his daughter ,,the minister told him have no fear with Christ all thing are possable, take me to her, so i can pray and lay hands on her... In His desperation he did ..
The Minister Prayed and layed a Hand on her and said In Jesuses Holy Name Be Healed rise up....
As soon as he pronounced those words ,the color came back to his daughter instantly she woke up from a death like sleep, healed ..

He can't stop talking and confessing Christ as God And Saviour ,He proclaims His Holy Name everywhere ,even to me How great God Is and the Mercy He Has shown Him By healing and saving his daughter from death at a young age...He mentioned that he prayed to Allah before his conversion to transfer the illness from his daughter to him,, Allah didn't hear him...


Which of these  are more believeable ,i choose Ibrahim, because Christ is Involved with his Daughters Healing...
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« Reply #64 on: December 23, 2009, 12:47:12 AM »

As such, and I reiterate, the appearance of the Theotokos as "light" above the church is not typical and in style of true Orthodox miracles and should be viewed with caution. True Orthodox miracles (as testified in the Synaxaria and the writings) have a more humble nature (such as the weeping icons etc).

And yet I recall reading about an EO saint, Seraphim of Sarov, who once emitted a blinding light, which was witnessed by one of his disciples. 

Then there is the story of Abba Joseph:

"Abba Lot went to see Abba Joseph and said to him, 'Abba as far as I can I say my little office, I fast a little, I pray and meditate, I live in peace, and, as far as I can, I purify my thoughts. What else can I do?' Then the old man stood up and stretched his hands towards heaven. His fingers became like ten lamps of fire and he said to him, 'If you will, you can become all flame.'"

http://en.orthodoxwiki.org/Sayings_of_the_Desert_Fathers#Abba_Bessarion
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« Reply #65 on: December 23, 2009, 12:49:49 AM »

Another thing to consider is that in the OO Church, the Mother of God is often compared to the burning bush which was viewed by Moses. 
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« Reply #66 on: December 23, 2009, 01:06:08 AM »

Then of course there's the Transfiguration. 
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« Reply #67 on: December 23, 2009, 01:10:32 AM »

In the Assyrian Church of the East Mary is the Second Ark of the Covenant.
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« Reply #68 on: December 23, 2009, 01:28:32 AM »

Coptic TV Channel report on the phenomenon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATDmLuDQYRM
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« Reply #69 on: December 23, 2009, 12:17:16 PM »

In the Assyrian Church of the East Mary is the Second Ark of the Covenant.

The Coptic Church as well...

and to add to what Salpy said, in this specific Coptic month before Christmas (Jan. 7), we actually have a hymn called the "Burning Bush" (which is actually Arabic musically, not Coptic, which means it was relatively recently added him).
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« Reply #70 on: December 23, 2009, 03:11:35 PM »

Here is a Coptic icon of the Burning Bush:



http://www.theotokos.org/Iconography/index.htm

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« Reply #71 on: December 24, 2009, 01:32:43 AM »

We are used to St. Mary's holy visits to our blessed Egypt, but this apparition is unique in terms of its frequency and the multiplicity of churches in which the Mother of God has appeared. Till now, she appeared in Warraq, in Shobra, in Garden City, in Muhandessin, ... and counting.

Usually St. Mary's visits are for protection of the Copts (1968 in Zeitoun) or to support and prepare the Copts ahead of an important incident.

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« Reply #72 on: December 24, 2009, 01:55:37 AM »

Coptic TV Channel report on the phenomenon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATDmLuDQYRM

I noticed in this video a sole dove flying around that night.  Are doves indigenous to Egypt?
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« Reply #73 on: December 24, 2009, 02:04:40 AM »

I like the "Epouro" hymn of the Coptic Church, I have a cd by the ensemble David with it which is very good.
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« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2009, 02:24:36 AM »

Here is another new video of the Theotokos inside the Church in Zeitun also in the last couple of days:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJWaibsC2cI

Quite remarkable.
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« Reply #75 on: December 24, 2009, 02:33:13 AM »

Coptic TV Channel report on the phenomenon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATDmLuDQYRM

I noticed in this video a sole dove flying around that night.  Are doves indigenous to Egypt?

Doves do not fly at night and in the case of the apparitions, these are luminous doves, not natural doves.  In these clips you can see the luminous doves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3FDMrBiMHI&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba2nsq7UPyU&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpgIJReD0aI&feature=channel

Sometimes they fly in formations of a cross or sometimes accompanying the Mother of God.
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« Reply #76 on: December 25, 2009, 12:43:46 AM »

     
Here's a image of the questionable Coptic Apparition.....





Egyptian Copts are seen outside the Virgin Mary church in Cairo's al-Waraaq district, early on December 22, for an expected appearance of the Virgin Mary in the sky over the church. Apparations lights and a full-figured Virgin Mary reportedly appeared on several occasions this month at the church which bears her name, prompting devotees to gather and wait for more sightings.
(AFP/File/Khaled Desouki)
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« Reply #77 on: December 25, 2009, 12:20:44 PM »

There's an AFP article about the apparitions:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091224/wl_africa_afp/egyptreligionchristian

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« Reply #78 on: December 26, 2009, 09:20:31 PM »

A report from a British Orthodox priest:

Quote
Since Thursday 10 December, Our Lady started appearing over a Virgin Mary and Archangel Michael Coptic Church in Warrak (a district looking over the Nile in North Cairo, yet affiliated to the Diocese of Giza). Over the first three days her appearance took a full form where people could see the colors of her cloth in White, Blue and Rose. The appearance was in very bright light, in 3 dimensions and it moved like a human being over the 3 domes of the church and then moved to the main gate which is in the center of the fence (15 meters from the church building). The appearances took place at night ranging from 11:30 pm till 4:00. Coming from all districts of Cairo, Christians and Muslims gathered round the church. All Copts till dawn were singing traditional songs for our Lady. In the first day of the appearance Copts living in all Cairo saw lights in the sky. People living near the pyramids, people in Nasr City, Imbaba and many other places saw lights and doves in the sky. During the following days, in Warrak, appearances of lights and doves of light were reported around 1:30-4:30 the doves were big, made of light, flew in groups making the form of the cross and other forms, they flew without moving their wings and appeared out of nowhere to fly and disappear into nowhere.

Report from Watani newspaper:

Quote
Late in the evening of Thursday 11 December, sometime after midnight, the official security guards at the gate of the church of the Holy Virgin and the Archangel Michael in the heavily populated district of Warraq al-Hadar in Giza witnessed an unusual light hovering above the church tower. The luminous glow, which paled the surrounding electric lights, also caught the eyes of a group of fellow Muslims sitting at a nearby café. Intrigued, they looked on, only to see the light condense into a female form. A few Coptic passers-by immediately recognised it as a transfiguration of their beloved Holy Virgin. She appeared in her full height in luminous robes, above the middle dome of the church, dressed in pure white and blue and crowned in gold. The crosses on top of the church glowed brightly as she hovered between the domes and the twin towers of the church. The apparition lasted from 1:00am till 4:00am on Friday.
Excitement spread; cell phones were used to call friends, take shots and videos of the apparition and send them to loved ones, and the crowd in front of the church rapidly swelled as word got around. The priests, who had long left the church, were called back and rushed to the site to confirm the apparition. Giza Security Authority got wind of the situation and hastened to send security men to cordon off the area, protect the crowds, and enforce discipline.

To read the rest of the article, visit the following link: http://www.wataninet.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?A=25345


The information presented in the above two reports sufficiently retorts suggestions that the event is a hoax or a demonic dillusion. The above two reports make clear that what appears from our perspective to be an undefined blast of light in fact took a female form, that the light glowed in 4 colours simultaneously (red and blue, corresponding to her attire, white, and yellow corresponding to her nimbus/crown), and that it was observed to travel between the two minarets, above the church's domes, and towards the church gate. The above two reports also confirm that HG Theodosius of the Diocese of Gaza has confirmed the legitimacy of the Apparition. Here is a short segment from Aghapy TV in which a priest and HG Bishop Theodosius briefly discuss the Apparition whilst addressing some of the voiced objections (which have come mainly from skeptical muslims):

http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/facebook-st-mary-miraculous-apparition-warraq-egypt-group-php-gid-227039890942/2152832608

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« Reply #79 on: December 27, 2009, 01:20:03 AM »

Actually, from what my father perceived in listening to Egyptian channels, especially Amr Adib shows, it seems the Protestants have voiced the strongest skepticism against the Coptic Church.
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« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2009, 07:53:10 PM »

Her traditional blue robe is visible ( to me ). Make of it what you will ,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyEluWxOYSU


Actually, from what my father perceived in listening to Egyptian channels, especially Amr Adib shows, it seems the Protestants have voiced the strongest skepticism against the Coptic Church.

Back in 2001, I happened to be in Assyut during the apparitions of the Holy Virgin. Adjacent to St Mark's church where the miracles were taking place stands a big Protestant church. The priest there, although like everybody else he was given the grace to witness everything with his own eyes denied the miraculous events in front of a BBC Camera  as being nothing out of the ordinary and unusual. For the period of the entire apparitions, the lights of the Virgin illuminated vast areas beyond the church, but never touched on the adjacent Protestant church and its compounds, that is separated  only by a narrow street from the Coptic church.

The lights of Assyut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97kKLkzJlIc
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« Reply #81 on: December 29, 2009, 08:30:18 PM »

The Pope's statement on the events:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuxBeTcPHTA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHJGkdSWzQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEd7tcoCpiI
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« Reply #82 on: December 29, 2009, 08:46:32 PM »

Quote
the lights of the Virgin illuminated vast areas beyond the church, but never touched on the adjacent Protestant church and its compounds

Is this good or bad? The protestants would say that they were saved from the "demons" and that the you guys are all deceived. I remember in South America long time ago one of these virgin apparitions occurred and a protestant actually removed the Glass from his house where an image was supernaturally engraved of the Virgin Mary. I don't feel comfortable with this stuff by the way, I am reticent on anything having to do with apparitions, visions, contact with the supernatural. Somebody enlighten me from scripture how to distinguish a true vision of the Virgin, the second Ark of the Covenant, from a fake one sent to deceive people.
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« Reply #83 on: December 29, 2009, 08:56:59 PM »

He said it!  The Muslims love the Virgin and glorify her more than some of the Protestants.
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« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2009, 09:31:53 PM »

Seems to be the impression I'm getting (or got) when I dabbled with protestantism. They even teach that Jesus disrespectfully called the Virgin "that woman" in the marriage of Cana chapter. With members of the same faith such as this what should I expect from the jewish talmud or books atheist liars write? God bless the Muslims for despite all their errors at least being respectful in this matter.
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« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2009, 12:35:34 AM »

He said it!  The Muslims love the Virgin and glorify her more than some of the Protestants.

I wouldn't doubt that one bit.  I know for a fact that many protestants detest her in response to the emphasis they see placed on her in the Roman Church.
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« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2009, 08:13:07 AM »

Lights! Be careful of "lights" ...

for false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
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« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2009, 11:44:33 AM »

I'm sorry, are you speaking of Seraphim of Sarov? 
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« Reply #88 on: December 30, 2009, 02:16:29 PM »

Lights! Be careful of "lights" ...

for false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

You still haven't answered my question.  The Holy Lights in Jerusalem, since they're not of a humble nature, are you suggesting, they're also false miracles?

And what about the rising up of Lazarus from the dead?  Since it is not a humble miracle, I suppose this miracle performed by Christ was a hoax.

Yes, we are told beware of false lights, but it's interesting to me that a Light that appears on top of a Coptic Church between two crosses would confirm the Coptic people in Orthodoxy, not take them away from it.  But at the same time, miracles are for your own personal benefit.  You do not need to believe in it.  Just let it be.  If this miracle truly helps a group of people, then let it be.  We read of the desert monks talk about stories of a false light teaching appearing to them trying to fool them in many tricks, like mentioning that they are perfect and they will automatically go to heaven and no need to work any further on their spirituality, or another story of a false light giving flattery to a monk telling him that fiery chariots will pick him up like Elijah, only to find it end in his death.  And yet the smart monk would always do the sign of the Cross, and the light diminishes and you see the truth behind the falsehood, or would pray a Psalm, and thus burn the false light away.

Beware of false lights indeed, but I don't see this one as such.
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« Reply #89 on: December 30, 2009, 02:51:16 PM »


From my poor Arabic, I can understand this much as the major points HH said (someone correct me if I erred in any part of his sermon):


There's a physical world and a spiritual world (also known as the "other" world, or the "world of light"); the light is Godly, for Christ is true light of true light, and the Virgin is the Mother of Light.  So it's no surprise that when we see a visit from a saint from another world, it is accompanied with light, and we rejoice with such a visit

Four types of doves understood in the Coptic Church:  pigeon (the physical pigeon as any person can see, as seen in the story of Noah, when that pigeon returned with an olive branch), Holy Spirit (as is shown in the Baptism of Christ when the Holy Spirit descended in the form of  a dove), Theotokos (as we sing in our hymnography, Hail to Mary, the Pure Dove, who bore for us, Christ our God), Humanity/Church can also be considered doves.

This apparitions is seen by myriads of people; phone calls to the patriarchate of other apparitions in other places other than Giza.

Our brethren the Catholics have confirmed the visitation.  Muslims have confirmed the truth of the apparition and their love of the Theotokos, more than the Protestants. Thanks to Amr Adib and his kind heart for the respect and love of the Virgin Mary in his program and his showing of this great event.

The Holy Virgin is the beloved of Egypt, for she took Christ to Egypt in his infancy and childhood; it is no surprise then to visit the people of her beloved.  She visited in Zeitoun in 68 (witnessed by HH the late Pope Kyrillos), and in Assiut, and in Babadoblo, Cairo (witnessed by HE Metropolitan Bishoy), and now in Waraq (witnessed by HE Metropolitan Theodosius of Giza)

Someone mentioned that there is no apparition of the Theotokos in the Bible.  To which I answer that the Bible does not talk about anything else other than the history of the time of the Apostles.  Would the Bible write about the history of today?  Of course not because it hasn't happened yet.  The history of the moving of the Moqattam mountain is also not recorded in the Bible because it hasn't happened then.  It's recorded as part of a historical event later on.

God for many times has allowed visitations by saints for us; it's been known that's what God does.  So we understand how much of a blessing it is for the Virgin to appear for us, and thus bless us and our land.

Thanks for Agape TV and for the evidence of pictures and videos of this great event.

As for you, stick with your rejoicing and your faith.

May the love of God the Father, the blessings of His Only Begotten Son, and the grace and communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.  Go in peace, the peace of the Lord be with you all.
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