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Author Topic: A question on the Immaculate Conception  (Read 101937 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1080 on: May 21, 2010, 11:42:53 AM »


You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.


A list of references means nothing at all.   You need to locate the actual passages to which the references refer.  You need to place them in front of us.  You need to show us how each of them teaches the Immaculate Conception.

But you have shown a great reluctance about this.  One has the impression that you suspect the references will not support the IC and you are avoiding locating them and making them public

However.... bring them on..... let's see them.

I have neither the language skills nor the material resources to do any of it.  But the references are there so I suspect that when the issue comes up formally, IF it ever comes up formally in our bilateral discussions all will become much more clear.  The credence I give to the sources comes directly from my interaction with cradle Orthodox who assure me that there is a history of the belief in Orthodoxy.

So as they say..."You can't take that away from me..."  angel

M.

It is time to restate the Orthodox teaching....

The Mother of God was conceived in the same spiritual state as you and me, the Dalai Lama and Pope Benedict XVI.

"Quotations can easily be multiplied, and they give clear indications that the Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary as it was defined in 1854 [by Pope Pius IX], if only they had shared the Western doctrine of original sin." (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, page 148)
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« Reply #1081 on: May 21, 2010, 11:44:31 AM »


You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.


A list of references means nothing at all.   You need to locate the actual passages to which the references refer.  You need to place them in front of us.  You need to show us how each of them teaches the Immaculate Conception.

But you have shown a great reluctance about this.  One has the impression that you suspect the references will not support the IC and you are avoiding locating them and making them public

However.... bring them on..... let's see them.

I have neither the language skills nor the material resources to do any of it.  But the references are there so I suspect that when the issue comes up formally, IF it ever comes up formally in our bilateral discussions all will become much more clear.  The credence I give to the sources comes directly from my interaction with cradle Orthodox who assure me that there is a history of the belief in Orthodoxy.

So as they say..."You can't take that away from me..."  angel

M.

It is time to restate the Orthodox teaching....

The Mother of God was conceived in the same spiritual state as you and me, the Dalai Lama and Pope Benedict XVI.

"Quotations can easily be multiplied, and they give clear indications that the Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary as it was defined in 1854 [by Pope Pius IX], if only they had shared the Western doctrine of original sin." (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, page 148)

So perhaps we go back to Father Kimel's assertion that the two doctrine's of original sin are genuinely different and explore that.

I say they are not.

Mary
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« Reply #1082 on: May 21, 2010, 11:45:25 AM »

God bless and keep you, Mickey.

Slava Isusu Christu!
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« Reply #1083 on: May 21, 2010, 11:48:46 AM »


"Quotations can easily be multiplied, and they give clear indications that the Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary as it was defined in 1854 [by Pope Pius IX], if only they had shared the Western doctrine of original sin." (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, page 148)

As Schmemann say, we don't share your Roman doctrine of original sin.  We do however share our doctrine with the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the Melkites, the Maronites and the other "Orthodox in communion with Rome" and that is why we all believe the Mother of God was conceived in the same spiritual state as you and me, the Dalai Lama and Pope Benedict XVI.
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« Reply #1084 on: May 21, 2010, 11:55:59 AM »


You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.


A list of references means nothing at all.   You need to locate the actual passages to which the references refer.  You need to place them in front of us.  You need to show us how each of them teaches the Immaculate Conception.

But you have shown a great reluctance about this.  One has the impression that you suspect the references will not support the IC and you are avoiding locating them and making them public

However.... bring them on..... let's see them.

I have neither the language skills nor the material resources to do any of it.  But the references are there so I suspect that when the issue comes up formally, IF it ever comes up formally in our bilateral discussions all will become much more clear.  The credence I give to the sources comes directly from my interaction with cradle Orthodox who assure me that there is a history of the belief in Orthodoxy.

So as they say..."You can't take that away from me..."  angel

M.

It is time to restate the Orthodox teaching....

The Mother of God was conceived in the same spiritual state as you and me, the Dalai Lama and Pope Benedict XVI.

"Quotations can easily be multiplied, and they give clear indications that the Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary as it was defined in 1854 [by Pope Pius IX], if only they had shared the Western doctrine of original sin." (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, page 148)

So perhaps we go back to Father Kimel's assertion that the two doctrine's of original sin are genuinely different and explore that.

I say they are not.


I have watched the exploration of the Catholic teaching on original sin for many years on Catholic forums.  I have seen the inter-Catholic dog fights.  The doctrine is in a state of transition.  Trying to get a handle on it is a short cut to madness.

After you've spent another 20 pages talking about it, you'll agree with me!   Grin
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1085 on: May 21, 2010, 12:07:11 PM »


You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.


A list of references means nothing at all.   You need to locate the actual passages to which the references refer.  You need to place them in front of us.  You need to show us how each of them teaches the Immaculate Conception.

But you have shown a great reluctance about this.  One has the impression that you suspect the references will not support the IC and you are avoiding locating them and making them public

However.... bring them on..... let's see them.

I have neither the language skills nor the material resources to do any of it.  But the references are there so I suspect that when the issue comes up formally, IF it ever comes up formally in our bilateral discussions all will become much more clear.  The credence I give to the sources comes directly from my interaction with cradle Orthodox who assure me that there is a history of the belief in Orthodoxy.

So as they say..."You can't take that away from me..."  angel

M.

It is time to restate the Orthodox teaching....

The Mother of God was conceived in the same spiritual state as you and me, the Dalai Lama and Pope Benedict XVI.

"Quotations can easily be multiplied, and they give clear indications that the Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary as it was defined in 1854 [by Pope Pius IX], if only they had shared the Western doctrine of original sin." (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, page 148)

So perhaps we go back to Father Kimel's assertion that the two doctrine's of original sin are genuinely different and explore that.

I say they are not.


I have watched the exploration of the Catholic teaching on original sin for many years on Catholic forums.  I have seen the inter-Catholic dog fights.  The doctrine is in a state of transition.  Trying to get a handle on it is a short cut to madness.

After you've spent another 20 pages talking about it, you'll agree with me!   Grin

I've been through it as long and as often.  Perhaps more because I do this off-line as well. 

And I disagree with you absolutely. 

The doctrine is not in a state of transition.  That is simply your way of trying to dismiss any discussion of substance.  Augustine never did dictate that particular Catholic doctrine and if anything what has been in a state of transition is the scholarly examination of his apparently multiple perspectives on the nature and substance of the "stain" of original sin.  Catholic doctrine has remained far more resolute and steady.

M.
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« Reply #1086 on: May 21, 2010, 12:12:25 PM »


"Quotations can easily be multiplied, and they give clear indications that the Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary as it was defined in 1854 [by Pope Pius IX], if only they had shared the Western doctrine of original sin." (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, page 148)

As Schmemann say, we don't share your Roman doctrine of original sin.  We do however share our doctrine with the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the Melkites, the Maronites and the other "Orthodox in communion with Rome" and that is why we all believe the Mother of God was conceived in the same spiritual state as you and me, the Dalai Lama and Pope Benedict XVI.


Dear Fr. Ambrose,

This get back to my earlier questions regarding RC doctrine separating death from the Fall.  It seems that their definition of Original Sin excludes the Fall as a result of sin, which makes things all the more difficult when trying to reconcile the two positions.

It seems to me that there is a further problem with ICVM as a doctrine: I believes it denigrates the most important aspect of the Annunciation: her free-will accepting of God's will as a human being.  This doctrine of ICVM seems to make it impossible for her to choose otherwise, which essentially makes her response automatic (after all, she can't sin because her nature had been altered via the ICVM, right?), since she already knew the consequences of the first Fall and did not have the burden of the Fall that we all bear (again, ICVM doctrine).

I think that the Church lauds the Theotokos because, as a human just as fallen as the rest of us, she responded best of all to the Love of God.

If humans need to have their nature corrected in order to receive the word of God in this life, then Baptism itself would have to be a taught as a secondary change of nature, the first being some sort of correction that allows humans to choose correctly.

Of course, I do not think that RCs believe this, but I am pointing this out because this doctrine appears to open some pretty big holes in traditional teachings regarding human free will (the same problem as Infallibility of the Pope).

Fr. John's quote really brings to light the essential problem: with the Orthodox doctrine of original sin, you don't need ICVM.  Therefore, ICVM is necessary for the difference in RC doctrine.
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« Reply #1087 on: May 21, 2010, 12:13:51 PM »


You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.


A list of references means nothing at all.   You need to locate the actual passages to which the references refer.  You need to place them in front of us.  You need to show us how each of them teaches the Immaculate Conception.

But you have shown a great reluctance about this.  One has the impression that you suspect the references will not support the IC and you are avoiding locating them and making them public

However.... bring them on..... let's see them.

I have neither the language skills nor the material resources to do any of it.  But the references are there so I suspect that when the issue comes up formally, IF it ever comes up formally in our bilateral discussions all will become much more clear.  The credence I give to the sources comes directly from my interaction with cradle Orthodox who assure me that there is a history of the belief in Orthodoxy.

So as they say..."You can't take that away from me..."  angel

M.

It is time to restate the Orthodox teaching....

The Mother of God was conceived in the same spiritual state as you and me, the Dalai Lama and Pope Benedict XVI.

"Quotations can easily be multiplied, and they give clear indications that the Mariological piety of the Byzantines would probably have led them to accept the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary as it was defined in 1854 [by Pope Pius IX], if only they had shared the Western doctrine of original sin." (John Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, page 148)

So perhaps we go back to Father Kimel's assertion that the two doctrine's of original sin are genuinely different and explore that.

I say they are not.


I have watched the exploration of the Catholic teaching on original sin for many years on Catholic forums.  I have seen the inter-Catholic dog fights.  The doctrine is in a state of transition.  Trying to get a handle on it is a short cut to madness.

After you've spent another 20 pages talking about it, you'll agree with me!   Grin

I've been through it as long and as often.  Perhaps more because I do this off-line as well. 

And I disagree with you absolutely. 

The doctrine is not in a state of transition.  That is simply your way of trying to dismiss any discussion of substance.  Augustine never did dictate that particular Catholic doctrine and if anything what has been in a state of transition is the scholarly examination of his apparently multiple perspectives on the nature and substance of the "stain" of original sin.  Catholic doctrine has remained far more resolute and steady.

M.

Go and read the numerous threads on CAF where Catholics are fighting about the meaning of original sin.

If only people such as yourself with an IQ of 160 can understand it, count the rest of us out!   
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1088 on: May 21, 2010, 12:14:59 PM »

Fifth Century Witnesses

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."
- Augustine, Nature and Grace, 42 [36] (A.D. 415).

"As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."
- Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

[The quote above by Proclus demonstrates that the fathers did articulate sin in term of a transmitted and contracted "stain."]

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."
- Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11 (ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made."
- Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).
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« Reply #1089 on: May 21, 2010, 12:29:06 PM »

And I disagree with you absolutely.  

The doctrine is not in a state of transition.  That is simply your way of trying to dismiss any discussion of substance.

"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
 By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

Francis Schüssler Fiorenza is Stillman Professor of Roman Catholic Theological Studies at Harvard Divinity School.

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1090 on: May 21, 2010, 12:50:22 PM »

And I disagree with you absolutely. 

The doctrine is not in a state of transition.  That is simply your way of trying to dismiss any discussion of substance.

"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
 By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv


His intellectual collaborator and wife is a radical feminist and he is a modernist and a professional secular theologian who writes what he feels like about the Catholic Church.

What does he have to do with Catholic doctrine? 

Nothing!!

M.

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« Reply #1091 on: May 21, 2010, 12:53:16 PM »

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."
- Augustine, Nature and Grace, 42 [36] (A.D. 415).

"As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."
- Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

[The quote above by Proclus demonstrates that the fathers did articulate sin in term of a transmitted and contracted "stain."]

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."
- Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11 (ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made."
- Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

You keep posting these over and over, yet it still does not show a belief in this novel doctrine. 

St Proclus may be your strongest quote---but I would like to read that in context—which is often a problem when cherry picking quotes.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1092 on: May 21, 2010, 12:53:58 PM »

http://www.womenpriests.org/wow/fiorenza.asp


We are Church - A Kindom of Priests (1)
Keynote speech by Elizabeth Schüssler Fiorenza,
Ottawa, 22nd July 2006
Spanish Version

    Wisdom has built Her house,
    She has set up Her seven pillars
    She also has set Her table.
    She has sent out Her wo/men ministers
    to call from the highest places in the town
    "Come eat of my bread and drink of the wine I have mixed.
    Leave immaturity, and live, And walk in the way of Wisdom
    (Proverbs 9:1-3.5-6)

We have gathered this weekend because we have heard the call of Divine Wisdom and have been sent out as her wo/men ministers to proclaim her invitation. We have come together here to celebrate our common struggles for a just church and to renew our vision for a world free of oppression. We have assembled as the ekklesia of wo/men in the discipleship of equals. We have come from near and far to be church - a kindom of priests - to use a term coined by mujerista theologian Ada Maria Isasi Diaz 2. We have assembled here to celebrate our baptismal call and to share with each other our lived and variegated gifts as ministers of Divine Wisdom - Spirit . We have assembled here to proclaim: Wo/men are the image of G*d and the representatives of Christ - Sophia. We are Her ministers as pastors, priests, hospital chaplains, campus ministers, theologians, bishops, teachers, liturgists, canon lawyers, presidents, directors, professors, dancers, counselors, as celebrants of the table of Divine Wisdom.3 We are in the words of the First Epistle of Peter:

" a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, in order that we may proclaim the mighty acts of Wisdom-Sophia who has called us out of darkness into G*d's marvelous light."
(paraphrase of 1 Peter 2:9-10 NRSV)

These words not only have been the Magna Carta of the Protestant Reformation but also the guiding star of Vatican II. They affirm the radical equality and priestly dignity of the people of G*d, of all those called, anointed and gifted in baptism to proclaim the wonderful deeds of Divine Wisdom-Sophia around the world.
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« Reply #1093 on: May 21, 2010, 01:01:08 PM »

And I disagree with you absolutely. 

The doctrine is not in a state of transition.  That is simply your way of trying to dismiss any discussion of substance.

"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
 By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv


His intellectual collaborator and wife is a radical feminist and he is a modernist and a professional secular theologian who writes what he feels like about the Catholic Church.

What does he have to do with Catholic doctrine? 

Nothing!!

So Kucharek makes things up (to put it politely) and Fiorenza makes things up!

What Catholic theologians can be trusted these days?

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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1094 on: May 21, 2010, 01:04:19 PM »

And I disagree with you absolutely. 

The doctrine is not in a state of transition.  That is simply your way of trying to dismiss any discussion of substance.

"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
 By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv


His intellectual collaborator and wife is a radical feminist and he is a modernist and a professional secular theologian who writes what he feels like about the Catholic Church.

What does he have to do with Catholic doctrine? 

Nothing!!

So Kucharek makes things up (to put it politely) and Fiorenza makes things up!

What Catholic theologians can be trusted these days?



You are very wrong in accusing Father Casimir of making things up.  Truly you are.  I gave you his citation for saying what he said and until you see what he was looking at you have no right to say he makes things up.  This reflects very badly on you.  Were there no citation and just the bald-faced assertion in the text, then yes, you might have a case.  But there is a reference and till we know what it is we must in all justice reserve judgment.

Mary
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« Reply #1095 on: May 21, 2010, 01:05:03 PM »

If only people such as yourself with an IQ of 160 can understand it, count the rest of us out! 

Wow! Is this true? 160 is genius level!  Shocked
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« Reply #1096 on: May 21, 2010, 01:06:01 PM »

So Kucharek makes things up (to put it politely) and Fiorenza makes things up!

What Catholic theologians can be trusted these days?

 Grin Cheesy Grin
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« Reply #1097 on: May 21, 2010, 01:06:31 PM »

And I disagree with you absolutely. 

The doctrine is not in a state of transition.  That is simply your way of trying to dismiss any discussion of substance.

"Current Roman Catholic theology of original sin is undergoing a radical transition and is marked by considerable pluralism..."

"Systematic theology: Roman Catholic perspectives"
 By Francis Schüssler Fiorenza, John P. Galvin

http://tinyurl.com/26vkexv


His intellectual collaborator and wife is a radical feminist and he is a modernist and a professional secular theologian who writes what he feels like about the Catholic Church.

What does he have to do with Catholic doctrine? 

Nothing!!

He has taught at the University of Notre Dame, Villanova University, and the Catholic University of America.

Do these Catholic universities count for nothing?

Seems to me that it has to be Mary's way or the highway!  laugh
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« Reply #1098 on: May 21, 2010, 01:14:01 PM »

[

It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.


The above is what Kucharek wrote.  We know he is lying because we have the letter written by Patriarch Anthimos in 1895.

If you want to start asserting again that there is a second hidden letter which the Vatican would not show to anybody but Kucharek, well, good luck with that theory. 

Don't you really think that if there were such a second letter, in which the Patriarch says that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is acceptable doctrine for the Orthodox that the Vatican would have plastered this letter all over Saint Peter's basilica?! 


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« Reply #1099 on: May 21, 2010, 01:17:12 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.
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« Reply #1100 on: May 21, 2010, 01:18:53 PM »

[

It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.


The above is what Kucharek wrote.  We know he is lying because we have the letter written by Patriarch Anthimos in 1895.

If you want to start asserting again that there is a second hidden letter which the Vatican would not show to anybody but Kucharek, well, good luck with that theory.  

Don't you really think that if there were such a second letter, in which the Patriarch says that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is acceptable doctrine for the Orthodox that the Vatican would have plastered this letter all over Saint Peter's basilica?!  




I gave you his reference. When you have examined that then get back to me and I will abide the decision.  Till then you are snorting out of your nose.

M.
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« Reply #1101 on: May 21, 2010, 01:20:40 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”
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« Reply #1102 on: May 21, 2010, 01:22:25 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”
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« Reply #1103 on: May 21, 2010, 01:24:29 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”
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« Reply #1104 on: May 21, 2010, 01:34:18 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."
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« Reply #1105 on: May 21, 2010, 01:37:15 PM »

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

You are retroactively reading IC into it.
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« Reply #1106 on: May 21, 2010, 01:37:37 PM »

Mary, you can keep quoting selected Fathers until the end of time, but the fact remains that the consensus patrum as reflected by, and proclaimed in, the liturgical deposit of the Orthodox Church does not, in any of the feasts of the Mother of God, nor in any Theotokia or prayers written about her mention that she was immaculately conceived. For any Orthodox clergyman to preach or teach otherwise is heresy. Period.

It is one thing for you to stand fast to your Roman Catholic beliefs. You have every right to do so. It is quite another to try to pin a heresy on the Orthodox as a historic doctrine which was later suppressed. You have no right to do so, yet, you continue to push your view in the face of irrefutable liturgical and historical evidence.

Your refusal to recognise this is truly baffling.  Huh
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« Reply #1107 on: May 21, 2010, 01:37:57 PM »

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

You are retroactively reading IC into it.
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« Reply #1108 on: May 21, 2010, 01:38:32 PM »

Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

You are retroactively reading IC into it.
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« Reply #1109 on: May 21, 2010, 01:39:53 PM »

[

It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.


The above is what Kucharek wrote.  We know he is lying because we have the letter written by Patriarch Anthimos in 1895.

If you want to start asserting again that there is a second hidden letter which the Vatican would not show to anybody but Kucharek, well, good luck with that theory.  

Don't you really think that if there were such a second letter, in which the Patriarch says that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is acceptable doctrine for the Orthodox that the Vatican would have plastered this letter all over Saint Peter's basilica?!  




I gave you his reference. When you have examined that then get back to me and I will abide the decision.  Till then you are snorting out of your nose.

The 1895 letter which we have from Patriarch Anthimos and the Synod of Constantinople calls the teaching of the Immaculate Conception a perversion, an heretical innovation, unknown to the Church, created in the West, denied by illustrious Catholic theologians.

Now if there were a second reference from Anthimos retracting all this and proclaiming that the doctrine of the IC were acceptable to the Greeks and all they are moaning about is the Pope's manner of making it a dogma - don't you think we would have heard about ?   Don't you think the Vatican would have seized the letter, whether Anthimos wrote in Greek, or Mongolian or Scythian, and translated it and flourished it in front of the Christian world?  

It may not be me who is, to borrow your phrase, snorting out of his nose.  
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« Reply #1110 on: May 21, 2010, 01:40:35 PM »

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Although St Gregory had a altogether different take on the subject---You are retroactively reading IC into it.

Are you finished cherry picking?
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« Reply #1111 on: May 21, 2010, 01:43:10 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Archbishop St. Proclus of Constantinople before 446 [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B]: "As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."
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« Reply #1112 on: May 21, 2010, 01:45:10 PM »

Mary, you can keep quoting selected Fathers until the end of time, but the fact remains that the consensus patrum as reflected by, and proclaimed in, the liturgical deposit of the Orthodox Church does not, in any of the feasts of the Mother of God, nor in any Theotokia or prayers written about her mention that she was immaculately conceived. For any Orthodox clergyman to preach or teach otherwise is heresy. Period.

She has ignored this many times.

It is one thing for you to stand fast to your Roman Catholic beliefs. You have every right to do so. It is quite another to try to pin a heresy on the Orthodox as a historic doctrine which was later suppressed. You have no right to do so, yet, you continue to push your view in the face of irrefutable liturgical and historical evidence.

Yes. I find myself curious as to why she is so adamant about trying to push an RC innovation down the throats of the Orthodox.

Your refusal to recognise this is truly baffling.  Huh

Indeed.  Huh
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« Reply #1113 on: May 21, 2010, 02:00:12 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Archbishop St. Proclus of Constantinople before 446 [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B]: "As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."

Patriarch St. Sophronius of Jerusalem [Oration 2:25 on the Annunciation to the Holy Mother of God in PG 87:3248A]: "Many saints appeared before thee, but none was as filled with grace as thou… No one has been purified in advance as thou hast been… Thou dost surpass all that is most excellent in man, as well as all the gifts which have been bestowed by God upon all others."
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« Reply #1114 on: May 21, 2010, 02:01:43 PM »


Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”


He then enumerates those ‘who not only lived without sin, but are described as having led holy lives, -- Abel, Enoch, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua the son of Nun, Phinehas, Samuel, Nathan, Elijah, Joseph, Elisha, Micaiah, Daniel, Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, Mordecai, Simeon, Joseph to whom the Virgin Mary was espoused, John.’ And he adds the names of some women, -- ‘Deborah, Anna the mother of Samuel, Judith, Esther, the other Anna, daughter of Phanuel, Elisabeth, and also the mother of our Lord and Saviour, for of her,’ he says, ‘we must needs allow that her piety had no sin in it.’ We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin
(Augustine, On Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius).



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« Reply #1115 on: May 21, 2010, 02:05:24 PM »

Alas...we have come to a point where the thread is now Mary's cherry picking saints' quotes and reading an IC interpretation into their words.

Yawn.

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« Reply #1116 on: May 21, 2010, 02:15:06 PM »

Fifth Century Witnesses

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."
- Augustine, Nature and Grace, 42 [36] (A.D. 415).

"As he formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."
- Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

[The quote above by Proclus demonstrates that the fathers did articulate sin in term of a transmitted and contracted "stain."]

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."
- Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11 (ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made."
- Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

Mary,

I see no implication in any of these quotes, save for possibly the one from Proclus, that the Virgin Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the moment of her conception.  Can you show us other quotes that defend your position more strongly?

EDIT:  I've read all of the quotes you posted after the post I quoted.  Thank you for the attempt, but I still don't see any clear implication in any but possibly the one from St. Amphilochius that the Virgin Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the moment of her conception.
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« Reply #1117 on: May 21, 2010, 02:39:50 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Archbishop St. Proclus of Constantinople before 446 [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B]: "As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."

Patriarch St. Sophronius of Jerusalem [Oration 2:25 on the Annunciation to the Holy Mother of God in PG 87:3248A]: "Many saints appeared before thee, but none was as filled with grace as thou… No one has been purified in advance as thou hast been… Thou dost surpass all that is most excellent in man, as well as all the gifts which have been bestowed by God upon all others."


Nicholas Cabasilas [Homily on the Annunciation 3 in PO 19:486]:

    The wall of separation, the barrier of enmity, did not exist for her, and everything which kept the human race away from God was removed in her. She alone made her peace [with God] before the general reconciliation; or rather she never needed reconciliation of any sort, because from the beginning she occupied the first place in the choir of the friends [of God].
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« Reply #1118 on: May 21, 2010, 02:41:38 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Archbishop St. Proclus of Constantinople before 446 [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B]: "As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."

Patriarch St. Sophronius of Jerusalem [Oration 2:25 on the Annunciation to the Holy Mother of God in PG 87:3248A]: "Many saints appeared before thee, but none was as filled with grace as thou… No one has been purified in advance as thou hast been… Thou dost surpass all that is most excellent in man, as well as all the gifts which have been bestowed by God upon all others."


Nicholas Cabasilas [Homily on the Annunciation 3 in PO 19:486]:

    The wall of separation, the barrier of enmity, did not exist for her, and everything which kept the human race away from God was removed in her. She alone made her peace [with God] before the general reconciliation; or rather she never needed reconciliation of any sort, because from the beginning she occupied the first place in the choir of the friends [of God].

St. Andrew of Crete [Homily 1 on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 97:809D-812]:

    Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation.
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« Reply #1119 on: May 21, 2010, 02:43:05 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Archbishop St. Proclus of Constantinople before 446 [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B]: "As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."

Patriarch St. Sophronius of Jerusalem [Oration 2:25 on the Annunciation to the Holy Mother of God in PG 87:3248A]: "Many saints appeared before thee, but none was as filled with grace as thou… No one has been purified in advance as thou hast been… Thou dost surpass all that is most excellent in man, as well as all the gifts which have been bestowed by God upon all others."


Nicholas Cabasilas [Homily on the Annunciation 3 in PO 19:486]:

    The wall of separation, the barrier of enmity, did not exist for her, and everything which kept the human race away from God was removed in her. She alone made her peace [with God] before the general reconciliation; or rather she never needed reconciliation of any sort, because from the beginning she occupied the first place in the choir of the friends [of God].

St. Andrew of Crete [Homily 1 on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 97:809D-812]:

    Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation.

Hieromonk St. John of Damascus (Doctor) says [O'Connor 97] before 749 [Homily on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 96:664AB]:

    Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!
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« Reply #1120 on: May 21, 2010, 02:45:03 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Archbishop St. Proclus of Constantinople before 446 [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B]: "As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."

Patriarch St. Sophronius of Jerusalem [Oration 2:25 on the Annunciation to the Holy Mother of God in PG 87:3248A]: "Many saints appeared before thee, but none was as filled with grace as thou… No one has been purified in advance as thou hast been… Thou dost surpass all that is most excellent in man, as well as all the gifts which have been bestowed by God upon all others."


Nicholas Cabasilas [Homily on the Annunciation 3 in PO 19:486]:

    The wall of separation, the barrier of enmity, did not exist for her, and everything which kept the human race away from God was removed in her. She alone made her peace [with God] before the general reconciliation; or rather she never needed reconciliation of any sort, because from the beginning she occupied the first place in the choir of the friends [of God].

St. Andrew of Crete [Homily 1 on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 97:809D-812]:

    Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation.

Hieromonk St. John of Damascus (Doctor) says [O'Connor 97] before 749 [Homily on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 96:664AB]:

    Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!

Abbot St. Theodore of Studion [On the Nativity of the Blessed Mary 4 in PG 96:685A]:

    Mary is the earth on which the thorns of sin did not grow. On the contrary, she brought forth a plant through which sin has been uprooted and taken away. She is an earth which was not cursed as was the first earth, fertile in thorns and thistles, but was blessed by the Lord; and her fruit is also blessed, as says the word of the Lord.

The same great saint adds [On the Nativity of the Blessed Mary 4 in PG 96:685D]: "She is the new dough that has been remade by God, the holy first-fruits of the human race, the root of that stem spoken of by the prophet."
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« Reply #1121 on: May 21, 2010, 02:46:19 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Archbishop St. Proclus of Constantinople before 446 [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B]: "As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."

Patriarch St. Sophronius of Jerusalem [Oration 2:25 on the Annunciation to the Holy Mother of God in PG 87:3248A]: "Many saints appeared before thee, but none was as filled with grace as thou… No one has been purified in advance as thou hast been… Thou dost surpass all that is most excellent in man, as well as all the gifts which have been bestowed by God upon all others."


Nicholas Cabasilas [Homily on the Annunciation 3 in PO 19:486]:

    The wall of separation, the barrier of enmity, did not exist for her, and everything which kept the human race away from God was removed in her. She alone made her peace [with God] before the general reconciliation; or rather she never needed reconciliation of any sort, because from the beginning she occupied the first place in the choir of the friends [of God].

St. Andrew of Crete [Homily 1 on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 97:809D-812]:

    Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation.

Hieromonk St. John of Damascus (Doctor) says [O'Connor 97] before 749 [Homily on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 96:664AB]:

    Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!

Abbot St. Theodore of Studion [On the Nativity of the Blessed Mary 4 in PG 96:685A]:

    Mary is the earth on which the thorns of sin did not grow. On the contrary, she brought forth a plant through which sin has been uprooted and taken away. She is an earth which was not cursed as was the first earth, fertile in thorns and thistles, but was blessed by the Lord; and her fruit is also blessed, as says the word of the Lord.

The same great saint adds [On the Nativity of the Blessed Mary 4 in PG 96:685D]: "She is the new dough that has been remade by God, the holy first-fruits of the human race, the root of that stem spoken of by the prophet."
St. Joseph the Hymnographer [O'Connor 104] says before 883 [In pervigilio Dormit., Canon III in PG 105:1000C,1001D], "Thou art dying now in consequence of a law which was not made for thee, thou, who art the only pure one."
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« Reply #1122 on: May 21, 2010, 02:46:47 PM »

Thank you for the attempt, but I still don't see any clear implication in any but possibly the one from St. Amphilochius that the Virgin Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the moment of her conception.

That is because there are no clear implications.

But Mary is on a mission!  Grin
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« Reply #1123 on: May 21, 2010, 02:47:49 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Archbishop St. Proclus of Constantinople before 446 [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B]: "As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."

Patriarch St. Sophronius of Jerusalem [Oration 2:25 on the Annunciation to the Holy Mother of God in PG 87:3248A]: "Many saints appeared before thee, but none was as filled with grace as thou… No one has been purified in advance as thou hast been… Thou dost surpass all that is most excellent in man, as well as all the gifts which have been bestowed by God upon all others."


Nicholas Cabasilas [Homily on the Annunciation 3 in PO 19:486]:

    The wall of separation, the barrier of enmity, did not exist for her, and everything which kept the human race away from God was removed in her. She alone made her peace [with God] before the general reconciliation; or rather she never needed reconciliation of any sort, because from the beginning she occupied the first place in the choir of the friends [of God].

St. Andrew of Crete [Homily 1 on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 97:809D-812]:

    Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation.

Hieromonk St. John of Damascus (Doctor) says [O'Connor 97] before 749 [Homily on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 96:664AB]:

    Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!

Abbot St. Theodore of Studion [On the Nativity of the Blessed Mary 4 in PG 96:685A]:

    Mary is the earth on which the thorns of sin did not grow. On the contrary, she brought forth a plant through which sin has been uprooted and taken away. She is an earth which was not cursed as was the first earth, fertile in thorns and thistles, but was blessed by the Lord; and her fruit is also blessed, as says the word of the Lord.

The same great saint adds [On the Nativity of the Blessed Mary 4 in PG 96:685D]: "She is the new dough that has been remade by God, the holy first-fruits of the human race, the root of that stem spoken of by the prophet."
St. Joseph the Hymnographer [O'Connor 104] says before 883 [In pervigilio Dormit., Canon III in PG 105:1000C,1001D], "Thou art dying now in consequence of a law which was not made for thee, thou, who art the only pure one."

Archbishop Theophylact of Ohrid [On the Presentation of the Blessed Mary 6 in PG 126:137A]: "She who surpassed all nature in purity and holiness, and who was justified from her mother’s womb, had to be exempt from a law made not for the just but for sinners."
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« Reply #1124 on: May 21, 2010, 02:50:32 PM »

Eastern Reference to Immaculate Conception, homily:

 Patriarch St. Euthymius I Synkellos of Constantinople, In conceptionem Annae in PO 16 before 911: Mary was “fully sanctified (kathagiazei)” on “this very day (touto semerou)“ of her creation.

Bishop St. Augustine the Great of Hippo (Doctor of Grace) [Lambruschini 75] says [Sermon 12 In Natale Domini], “The Church, like Mary, has perpetual integrity and incorrupt fruitfulness. For that which Mary merited in the flesh, the Church preserved in the spirit; the only difference is that the former bore one, the latter many.” Latin: “Ecclesiæ, sicut Mariæ, perpetua integritas et incorrupta fœcunditas. Quod enim illa meruit in carne, hæc servavit in mente, nisi quod illa peperit unum, hæc parit multos..”

Bishop St. Amphilochius of Iconium [Lambruschini 70] says [Discourse 4 in S. Deiparam], that God formed Mary “without sin and without stain [sine macula et sine peccato].”

 Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem [Bryant 68-69] says [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

Archbishop St. Gregory Palamas of Thessalonica [Homily 14 on the Annunciation in PG 151:172A-C]: "Mary escaped the malediction of Eve. Free from the old servitude, she became the source of deliverance of men from it."

Archbishop St. Proclus of Constantinople before 446 [Homily 1:3 in PG 65:683B]: "As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."

Patriarch St. Sophronius of Jerusalem [Oration 2:25 on the Annunciation to the Holy Mother of God in PG 87:3248A]: "Many saints appeared before thee, but none was as filled with grace as thou… No one has been purified in advance as thou hast been… Thou dost surpass all that is most excellent in man, as well as all the gifts which have been bestowed by God upon all others."


Nicholas Cabasilas [Homily on the Annunciation 3 in PO 19:486]:

    The wall of separation, the barrier of enmity, did not exist for her, and everything which kept the human race away from God was removed in her. She alone made her peace [with God] before the general reconciliation; or rather she never needed reconciliation of any sort, because from the beginning she occupied the first place in the choir of the friends [of God].

St. Andrew of Crete [Homily 1 on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 97:809D-812]:

    Today, Adam presents Mary to God as the first fruits of our nature… Today, humanity recovers the gift it had received when first formed by divine hands, and returns immaculate to its original nobility. The shame of sin had cast a shadow upon the splendor and charm of human nature; but when the Mother of Him Who is Beauty itself is born, this nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model, truly worthy of God. And this fashioning is a perfect restoration; this restoration is a divinization, and this divinization is an assimilation to the primitive state… In a word, the reformation of our nature begins today; the world, which had grown old, undergoes a transformation which is wholly divine, and receives the first fruits of its second creation.

Hieromonk St. John of Damascus (Doctor) says [O'Connor 97] before 749 [Homily on the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in PG 96:664AB]:

    Nature was defeated by grace and stopped, trembling, not daring to take precedence over it [grace]. Since the Virgin Mother of God was to be born of Anne, nature did not dare to precede the product of grace; but remained sterile until grace had produced its fruit. O happy loins of Joachim, which had produced a germ which is all immaculate. O wondrous womb of Anne in which an all-holy child slowly grew and took shape!

Abbot St. Theodore of Studion [On the Nativity of the Blessed Mary 4 in PG 96:685A]:

    Mary is the earth on which the thorns of sin did not grow. On the contrary, she brought forth a plant through which sin has been uprooted and taken away. She is an earth which was not cursed as was the first earth, fertile in thorns and thistles, but was blessed by the Lord; and her fruit is also blessed, as says the word of the Lord.

The same great saint adds [On the Nativity of the Blessed Mary 4 in PG 96:685D]: "She is the new dough that has been remade by God, the holy first-fruits of the human race, the root of that stem spoken of by the prophet."
St. Joseph the Hymnographer [O'Connor 104] says before 883 [In pervigilio Dormit., Canon III in PG 105:1000C,1001D], "Thou art dying now in consequence of a law which was not made for thee, thou, who art the only pure one."

Archbishop Theophylact of Ohrid [On the Presentation of the Blessed Mary 6 in PG 126:137A]: "She who surpassed all nature in purity and holiness, and who was justified from her mother’s womb, had to be exempt from a law made not for the just but for sinners."


Hieromonk St. Jerome the Great of Strido (Doctor) [Lambruschini 71-72] says [Commentary on Psalm 77 in PL 26:1049BC],

    Behold the Lord cometh into Egypt in a light cloud. The light cloud we must understand, either as properly signifying the body of the Savior, as being light and burdened with no sin: or we may certainly take the light cloud as signifying Holy Mary … Behold the Lord cometh into the Egypt of this world on a light cloud, which is the Virgin. "And He conducted them with a cloud by day." He said beautifully "by day," for that cloud was never in darkness, but always in light.

Latin:

    Ecce Dominus venit Ægyptum in nebulâ levi. Nubem levem, aut propriè Salvatoris corpus debemus accipere, quia leve fuit, et nullo peccato prægravatm: aut certè nubem levem debemus sanctam Mariam accipere, nullo semine humano prægravatam. Ecce Dominus venit in Ægyptum sæculi istius super nubem levem, Virginem. "Et deduxit eos in nube diei." Pulchrè dixit diei; nubes eniem illa non fuit in tenebris, sed semper in luce.
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