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Author Topic: A question on the Immaculate Conception  (Read 98581 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #1035 on: May 20, 2010, 02:38:13 PM »


Boy, if I had a dime for every time someone tried to pass this site off as an Orthodox site---I'd be a rich man!  Grin
Or just look at the site:
Quote
Dr. Alexander Roman [alex@unicorne.org], an erudite and prolific
member of the Ukrainian Catholic Church has contributed a large number of
articles which are on this site.
http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/aboutUs.htm

That Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome nonsense.

He's Ukrainian after all.
sorry, phyletism is a heresy.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
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« Reply #1036 on: May 20, 2010, 02:41:15 PM »

He's Ukrainian after all.

He is a Ukrainian Catholic. That is why he is forced to walk the IC tightrope.  Wink



He actually believes without coercion.

He comes from a long line of priestly families from the land of Orthodox-Catholic intercommunion.

M.
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ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
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Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,621



« Reply #1037 on: May 20, 2010, 02:42:50 PM »

He's Ukrainian after all.

He is a Ukrainian Catholic. That is why he is forced to walk the IC tightrope.  Wink



He actually believes without coercion.

He comes from a long line of priestly families from the land of Orthodox-Catholic intercommunion.
If suppression counts as intercommunion.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
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Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #1038 on: May 20, 2010, 02:43:56 PM »

He's Ukrainian after all.

He is a Ukrainian Catholic. That is why he is forced to walk the IC tightrope.  Wink



He actually believes without coercion.

He comes from a long line of priestly families from the land of Orthodox-Catholic intercommunion.
If suppression counts as intercommunion.

Wishful thinkin'
Logged

elijahmaria
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« Reply #1039 on: May 20, 2010, 05:04:27 PM »

Poetic Hyperbole

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Taken from The Festal Menaion translated from the original Greek by
Mother Mary and Archimandrite Kallistos Ware.

The Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple


At Orthros the Magnificat is replaced by these words:

"Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with
amazement, seeing how the Virgin entered into the Holy of Holies" (p.
190 Menaion )

The kontakion of the feast:

"The All-pure Temple of the Saviour, the precious Bridal Chamber and
Virgin, the sacred treasure of the glory of God, is led today into the
house of the Lord, and with her she brings the grace of the divine
Spirit. Of her God's angels sing in praise: "She is indeed the
heavenly Tabernacle." (P. 195 Menaion)

From Small Vespers:

O ye gates of the sanctuary, into the Holy of Holies receive ye a Virgin,
the spotless Tabernacle of God the Almighty.

Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.

The living Bridal Chamber of God the Word receives bread from the hands of a
divine angel, as she dwells in the Holy of holies.

From Great Vespers:

Led by the Holy Spirit, the holy Maid without spot is taken to dwell in the
Holy of Holies. By an angel is she fed, who is in truth the most holy Temple
of our Holy God. He has sanctified all things by her entry, and has made
godlike the fallen nature of fallen men.

After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.

Ann, truly blessed by God's grace, led with gladness into the temple of the
Lord the pure and ever-Virgin, who is full of grace, and she called the
young girls to go before her, lamps in hand. `Go, Child,' she said, `to Him
who gave thee unto me; be unto Him an offering and a sweet smelling incense.
Go into the place which none may enter: learn its mysteries and prepare
thyself to become the pleasing and beautiful dwelling-place of Jesus, who
grants the world great mercy.'

From Matins:

From Eve of old the transgression came upon mankind, and now from Eve's
stock has flowered forth our restoration and incorruption, even the
Theotokos, who is brought today into the house of God.

Be glad today, O Joachim, and rejoice exceedingly in spirit, O Ann, who now
present unto the Lord your daughter, as a three-year old victim of
sacrifice, holy and utterly without spot.

The ewe-lamb of God without spot, the dove without blemish, the tabernacle
that is to hold God, the sanctuary of the glory, has chosen to dwell in the
holy temple.

Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.

Seeing the beauty of thy soul, O undefiled Virgin, Zacharias cried out with
faith: `Thou art our deliverance, thou art the joy of all. Thou art our
restoration, through whom the Incomprehensible appears comprehensible to
me.'

O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

A child in the flesh but perfect in soul, the holy Ark enters into the house
of God, there to feed upon divine grace.

The ranks of angels rejoiced exceedingly and spirits of the righteous were
glad, when the Mother of God was led into the sanctuary.

Mary without spot rejoiced in body and spirit, dwelling as a sacred vessel
in the temple of the Lord.

Receiving heavenly food, she who was to become the Mother of Christ the
Saviour according to the flesh, increased in wisdom and grace.

O pure Theotokos, thou hast a clean and shining beauty of soul, and art
filled from heaven with the grace of God. Thou dost ever enlighten with
eternal light those who cry aloud in gladness: O pure Virgin, thou art truly
high above all.

Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with amazement,
seeing how she entered marvelously into the Holy of Holies.

Thy wonders, O pure Theotokos, surpass the power of words. For in thee I see
something beyond speech; a body that was never subject to the taint of sin.
Therefore in thanksgiving I cry to thee: O pure Virgin, thou art truly high
above all.

Angels and men, let us honour the entry of the Virgin, for in glory she has
gone into the Holy of Holies.



Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,621



« Reply #1040 on: May 20, 2010, 05:07:47 PM »

He's Ukrainian after all.

He is a Ukrainian Catholic. That is why he is forced to walk the IC tightrope.  Wink



He actually believes without coercion.

He comes from a long line of priestly families from the land of Orthodox-Catholic intercommunion.
If suppression counts as intercommunion.

Wishful thinkin'
Yes, 1596 was.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,621



« Reply #1041 on: May 20, 2010, 05:09:47 PM »

Poetic Hyperbole

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Taken from The Festal Menaion translated from the original Greek by
Mother Mary and Archimandrite Kallistos Ware.

The Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple


At Orthros the Magnificat is replaced by these words:

"Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with
amazement, seeing how the Virgin entered into the Holy of Holies" (p.
190 Menaion )

The kontakion of the feast:

"The All-pure Temple of the Saviour, the precious Bridal Chamber and
Virgin, the sacred treasure of the glory of God, is led today into the
house of the Lord, and with her she brings the grace of the divine
Spirit. Of her God's angels sing in praise: "She is indeed the
heavenly Tabernacle." (P. 195 Menaion)

From Small Vespers:

O ye gates of the sanctuary, into the Holy of Holies receive ye a Virgin,
the spotless Tabernacle of God the Almighty.

Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.

The living Bridal Chamber of God the Word receives bread from the hands of a
divine angel, as she dwells in the Holy of holies.

From Great Vespers:

Led by the Holy Spirit, the holy Maid without spot is taken to dwell in the
Holy of Holies. By an angel is she fed, who is in truth the most holy Temple
of our Holy God. He has sanctified all things by her entry, and has made
godlike the fallen nature of fallen men.

After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.

Ann, truly blessed by God's grace, led with gladness into the temple of the
Lord the pure and ever-Virgin, who is full of grace, and she called the
young girls to go before her, lamps in hand. `Go, Child,' she said, `to Him
who gave thee unto me; be unto Him an offering and a sweet smelling incense.
Go into the place which none may enter: learn its mysteries and prepare
thyself to become the pleasing and beautiful dwelling-place of Jesus, who
grants the world great mercy.'

From Matins:

From Eve of old the transgression came upon mankind, and now from Eve's
stock has flowered forth our restoration and incorruption, even the
Theotokos, who is brought today into the house of God.

Be glad today, O Joachim, and rejoice exceedingly in spirit, O Ann, who now
present unto the Lord your daughter, as a three-year old victim of
sacrifice, holy and utterly without spot.

The ewe-lamb of God without spot, the dove without blemish, the tabernacle
that is to hold God, the sanctuary of the glory, has chosen to dwell in the
holy temple.

Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.

Seeing the beauty of thy soul, O undefiled Virgin, Zacharias cried out with
faith: `Thou art our deliverance, thou art the joy of all. Thou art our
restoration, through whom the Incomprehensible appears comprehensible to
me.'

O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

A child in the flesh but perfect in soul, the holy Ark enters into the house
of God, there to feed upon divine grace.

The ranks of angels rejoiced exceedingly and spirits of the righteous were
glad, when the Mother of God was led into the sanctuary.

Mary without spot rejoiced in body and spirit, dwelling as a sacred vessel
in the temple of the Lord.

Receiving heavenly food, she who was to become the Mother of Christ the
Saviour according to the flesh, increased in wisdom and grace.

O pure Theotokos, thou hast a clean and shining beauty of soul, and art
filled from heaven with the grace of God. Thou dost ever enlighten with
eternal light those who cry aloud in gladness: O pure Virgin, thou art truly
high above all.

Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with amazement,
seeing how she entered marvelously into the Holy of Holies.

Thy wonders, O pure Theotokos, surpass the power of words. For in thee I see
something beyond speech; a body that was never subject to the taint of sin.
Therefore in thanksgiving I cry to thee: O pure Virgin, thou art truly high
above all.

Angels and men, let us honour the entry of the Virgin, for in glory she has
gone into the Holy of Holies.




If "full of grace" meant she was immaculately conceived, how is it that she here "increases in grace?"
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #1042 on: May 20, 2010, 05:21:57 PM »

Poetic Hyperbole

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Taken from The Festal Menaion translated from the original Greek by
Mother Mary and Archimandrite Kallistos Ware.

The Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple


At Orthros the Magnificat is replaced by these words:

"Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with
amazement, seeing how the Virgin entered into the Holy of Holies" (p.
190 Menaion )

The kontakion of the feast:

"The All-pure Temple of the Saviour, the precious Bridal Chamber and
Virgin, the sacred treasure of the glory of God, is led today into the
house of the Lord, and with her she brings the grace of the divine
Spirit. Of her God's angels sing in praise: "She is indeed the
heavenly Tabernacle." (P. 195 Menaion)

From Small Vespers:

O ye gates of the sanctuary, into the Holy of Holies receive ye a Virgin,
the spotless Tabernacle of God the Almighty.

Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.

The living Bridal Chamber of God the Word receives bread from the hands of a
divine angel, as she dwells in the Holy of holies.

From Great Vespers:

Led by the Holy Spirit, the holy Maid without spot is taken to dwell in the
Holy of Holies. By an angel is she fed, who is in truth the most holy Temple
of our Holy God. He has sanctified all things by her entry, and has made
godlike the fallen nature of fallen men.

After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.

Ann, truly blessed by God's grace, led with gladness into the temple of the
Lord the pure and ever-Virgin, who is full of grace, and she called the
young girls to go before her, lamps in hand. `Go, Child,' she said, `to Him
who gave thee unto me; be unto Him an offering and a sweet smelling incense.
Go into the place which none may enter: learn its mysteries and prepare
thyself to become the pleasing and beautiful dwelling-place of Jesus, who
grants the world great mercy.'

From Matins:

From Eve of old the transgression came upon mankind, and now from Eve's
stock has flowered forth our restoration and incorruption, even the
Theotokos, who is brought today into the house of God.

Be glad today, O Joachim, and rejoice exceedingly in spirit, O Ann, who now
present unto the Lord your daughter, as a three-year old victim of
sacrifice, holy and utterly without spot.

The ewe-lamb of God without spot, the dove without blemish, the tabernacle
that is to hold God, the sanctuary of the glory, has chosen to dwell in the
holy temple.

Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.

Seeing the beauty of thy soul, O undefiled Virgin, Zacharias cried out with
faith: `Thou art our deliverance, thou art the joy of all. Thou art our
restoration, through whom the Incomprehensible appears comprehensible to
me.'

O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

A child in the flesh but perfect in soul, the holy Ark enters into the house
of God, there to feed upon divine grace.

The ranks of angels rejoiced exceedingly and spirits of the righteous were
glad, when the Mother of God was led into the sanctuary.

Mary without spot rejoiced in body and spirit, dwelling as a sacred vessel
in the temple of the Lord.

Receiving heavenly food, she who was to become the Mother of Christ the
Saviour according to the flesh, increased in wisdom and grace.

O pure Theotokos, thou hast a clean and shining beauty of soul, and art
filled from heaven with the grace of God. Thou dost ever enlighten with
eternal light those who cry aloud in gladness: O pure Virgin, thou art truly
high above all.

Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with amazement,
seeing how she entered marvelously into the Holy of Holies.

Thy wonders, O pure Theotokos, surpass the power of words. For in thee I see
something beyond speech; a body that was never subject to the taint of sin.
Therefore in thanksgiving I cry to thee: O pure Virgin, thou art truly high
above all.

Angels and men, let us honour the entry of the Virgin, for in glory she has
gone into the Holy of Holies.




If "full of grace" meant she was immaculately conceived, how is it that she here "increases in grace?"

"According to the flesh..."

The same way Jesus increased in his life time..."according to the flesh"

It does not detract from the rest of the exaggerated language used here though.

M.
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,621



« Reply #1043 on: May 20, 2010, 06:23:36 PM »

Poetic Hyperbole

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Taken from The Festal Menaion translated from the original Greek by
Mother Mary and Archimandrite Kallistos Ware.

The Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple


At Orthros the Magnificat is replaced by these words:

"Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with
amazement, seeing how the Virgin entered into the Holy of Holies" (p.
190 Menaion )

The kontakion of the feast:

"The All-pure Temple of the Saviour, the precious Bridal Chamber and
Virgin, the sacred treasure of the glory of God, is led today into the
house of the Lord, and with her she brings the grace of the divine
Spirit. Of her God's angels sing in praise: "She is indeed the
heavenly Tabernacle." (P. 195 Menaion)

From Small Vespers:

O ye gates of the sanctuary, into the Holy of Holies receive ye a Virgin,
the spotless Tabernacle of God the Almighty.

Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.

The living Bridal Chamber of God the Word receives bread from the hands of a
divine angel, as she dwells in the Holy of holies.

From Great Vespers:

Led by the Holy Spirit, the holy Maid without spot is taken to dwell in the
Holy of Holies. By an angel is she fed, who is in truth the most holy Temple
of our Holy God. He has sanctified all things by her entry, and has made
godlike the fallen nature of fallen men.

After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.

Ann, truly blessed by God's grace, led with gladness into the temple of the
Lord the pure and ever-Virgin, who is full of grace, and she called the
young girls to go before her, lamps in hand. `Go, Child,' she said, `to Him
who gave thee unto me; be unto Him an offering and a sweet smelling incense.
Go into the place which none may enter: learn its mysteries and prepare
thyself to become the pleasing and beautiful dwelling-place of Jesus, who
grants the world great mercy.'

From Matins:

From Eve of old the transgression came upon mankind, and now from Eve's
stock has flowered forth our restoration and incorruption, even the
Theotokos, who is brought today into the house of God.

Be glad today, O Joachim, and rejoice exceedingly in spirit, O Ann, who now
present unto the Lord your daughter, as a three-year old victim of
sacrifice, holy and utterly without spot.

The ewe-lamb of God without spot, the dove without blemish, the tabernacle
that is to hold God, the sanctuary of the glory, has chosen to dwell in the
holy temple.

Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.

Seeing the beauty of thy soul, O undefiled Virgin, Zacharias cried out with
faith: `Thou art our deliverance, thou art the joy of all. Thou art our
restoration, through whom the Incomprehensible appears comprehensible to
me.'

O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

A child in the flesh but perfect in soul, the holy Ark enters into the house
of God, there to feed upon divine grace.

The ranks of angels rejoiced exceedingly and spirits of the righteous were
glad, when the Mother of God was led into the sanctuary.

Mary without spot rejoiced in body and spirit, dwelling as a sacred vessel
in the temple of the Lord.

Receiving heavenly food, she who was to become the Mother of Christ the
Saviour according to the flesh, increased in wisdom and grace.

O pure Theotokos, thou hast a clean and shining beauty of soul, and art
filled from heaven with the grace of God. Thou dost ever enlighten with
eternal light those who cry aloud in gladness: O pure Virgin, thou art truly
high above all.

Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with amazement,
seeing how she entered marvelously into the Holy of Holies.

Thy wonders, O pure Theotokos, surpass the power of words. For in thee I see
something beyond speech; a body that was never subject to the taint of sin.
Therefore in thanksgiving I cry to thee: O pure Virgin, thou art truly high
above all.

Angels and men, let us honour the entry of the Virgin, for in glory she has
gone into the Holy of Holies.




If "full of grace" meant she was immaculately conceived, how is it that she here "increases in grace?"

"According to the flesh..."

The same way Jesus increased in his life time..."according to the flesh"

It does not detract from the rest of the exaggerated language used here though.

M.

LOL. I'd love to see you battle that out with Mardukm.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1044 on: May 20, 2010, 11:03:23 PM »

The Immaculate Conception of Mary

by Dr. Robert Schihl

Eastern Church:

    * celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th to the 9th Century;


The baldheaded effrontery of the deception is unbelievable!!   This is a dishonest man.

We have a feast of Saint Peter..... Will Schihl present it as proof that we have always believed in the Pope of Rome's universal jurisdiction?  Angry
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LBK
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1045 on: May 20, 2010, 11:30:26 PM »

The Immaculate Conception of Mary

by Dr. Robert Schihl

Eastern Church:

    * celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th to the 9th Century;


The baldheaded effrontery of the deception is unbelievable!!   This is a dishonest man.

We have a feast of Saint Peter..... Will Schihl present it as proof that we have always believed in the Pope of Rome's universal jurisdiction?  Angry

Celebrated (past tense) a feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th and 9th centuries? The Orthodox still do, 1200 years later!

And the Orthodox feast is of Apostles Peter and Paul, where both apostles are spoken of with equally high regard.

This Schihl fellow oughta brush up on Orthodox liturgical history.  Roll Eyes

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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1046 on: May 20, 2010, 11:33:16 PM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.



You are almost as dangerous with your misrepresentations as Fr Kucharek who stoops to lying to support his partisan position.   This attempt to deceive us is beyond belief.  Unfortunately the poor Catholic sods reading Kucharek's book will take him at face value and not check the letter.   Contrary to what he says, the letter by the Patriarch and the bishops assesses the Immaculate Conception as a perversion of the ancient faith.

So Kucharek lied about this letter.  Perhaps he had never seen it and was replying on false information presented by others?  It is more than clear that the Patriarch's concern is NOT the manner of the implementation of the IC by the Pope but simply that the IC is false per se.


And if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century read the Creed with the addition, or used unleavened bread, or accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire, or sprinkling instead of baptism, or the immaculate conception of the ever-Virgin, or the temporal power, or the infallibility and absolutism of the Bishop of Rome, we have no more to say. But if, on the contrary, it is plainly demonstrated, as those of the Latins themselves, who love the truth, also acknowledge, that the Eastern and orthodox catholic Church of Christ holds fast the anciently transmitted doctrines which were at that time professed in common both in the East and the West, and that the Western Church perverted them by divers innovations, then it is clear, even to children, that the more natural way to union is the return of the Western Church to the ancient doctrinal and administrative condition of things; for the faith does not change in any way with time or circumstances, but remains the same always and everywhere..."

The Patriarch and bishops also say that the IC is a novel doctrine unknown to the Church and a "substantial difference between the two churches respecting the faith" and something "created in the West" and they assert that Jesus Christ is alone pure and immaculate.

XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).

XIV. Passing over, then, these serious and substantial differences between the two churches respecting the faith, which differences, as has been said before, were created in the West..."


The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx
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« Reply #1047 on: May 20, 2010, 11:36:14 PM »

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:54:59 PM by NYer

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary was full of grace and thus sinless.

And here the false syllogism gets its start.

This is a false statement? 

Mary
It does not follow from that she was full of grace that she was therefore sinless, much less without ancestral sin, any more than for St. Stephen (Acts 6:Cool, or SS Elizabeth and Zachariah being "blamelss" (Lk 1:6) made them immaculate.

So you are one of those Orthodox who believe that she sinned in life.

Father Ambrose has pretty emphatically insisted in this thread that Orthodoxy assuredly teaches the sinlessness of the Virgin.

I am often corrected by Orthodox clergy and laity for suggesting that there is a variety of Orthodox teachings on any number of issues, but I continue to receive that message very clearly as I have here.

Who is more rightly Orthodox, you?...or Father Ambrose?

M.

Ya'll got to work on that reading problem.

You assUme that there is a disagreement.  All I said was that your "proof texts" do not prove our belief, let alone your novel dogma. I have repeatedly stated, as Fr. Ambrose has, that she was subject to ancestral sin.  Nothing more.
Just like throwing around the words "novel" and "innovation" doesn't really prove anything.

As you see from the words above from the letter of 1895, some heavy-hitters in the Orthodox world called it "novel."   laugh
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« Reply #1048 on: May 21, 2010, 12:32:58 AM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.



You are almost as dangerous with your misrepresentations as Fr Kucharek who stoops to lying to support his partisan position.   This attempt to deceive us is beyond belief.  Unfortunately the poor Catholic sods reading Kucharek's book will take him at face value and not check the letter.   Contrary to what he says, the letter by the Patriarch and the bishops assesses the Immaculate Conception as a perversion of the ancient faith.

So Kucharek lied about this letter.  Perhaps he had never seen it and was replying on false information presented by others?  It is more than clear that the Patriarch's concern is NOT the manner of the implementation of the IC by the Pope but simply that the IC is false per se.


And if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century read the Creed with the addition, or used unleavened bread, or accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire, or sprinkling instead of baptism, or the immaculate conception of the ever-Virgin, or the temporal power, or the infallibility and absolutism of the Bishop of Rome, we have no more to say. But if, on the contrary, it is plainly demonstrated, as those of the Latins themselves, who love the truth, also acknowledge, that the Eastern and orthodox catholic Church of Christ holds fast the anciently transmitted doctrines which were at that time professed in common both in the East and the West, and that the Western Church perverted them by divers innovations, then it is clear, even to children, that the more natural way to union is the return of the Western Church to the ancient doctrinal and administrative condition of things; for the faith does not change in any way with time or circumstances, but remains the same always and everywhere..."

The Patriarch and bishops also say that the IC is a novel doctrine unknown to the Church and a "substantial difference between the two churches respecting the faith" and something "created in the West" and they assert that Jesus Christ is alone pure and immaculate.

XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).

XIV. Passing over, then, these serious and substantial differences between the two churches respecting the faith, which differences, as has been said before, were created in the West..."


The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx


Perhaps now you can understand, along with Fr Kimel, that when you present us with Kucharek's list of a claimed 13 Byzantine theologians from the 8th to the 13th centuries who supposedly supported the Immaculate Conception, that we simply do not believe you.  Kucharek has not presented even one quote from these Byzantine theologians and, not to beat around the bush, the man is not to be trusted.
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« Reply #1049 on: May 21, 2010, 01:15:45 AM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.


Elijahmaria,

You need to start checking your facts before posting.  (Shades of Kucharek!)

The Immaculate Deception was defined in 1854.

The Papal Letter was written to the Eastern Church in 1894.

FORTY years after the event!!
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« Reply #1050 on: May 21, 2010, 03:02:20 AM »

Poetic Hyperbole

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Taken from The Festal Menaion translated from the original Greek by
Mother Mary and Archimandrite Kallistos Ware.

The Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple


At Orthros the Magnificat is replaced by these words:

"Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with
amazement, seeing how the Virgin entered into the Holy of Holies" (p.
190 Menaion )

The kontakion of the feast:

"The All-pure Temple of the Saviour, the precious Bridal Chamber and
Virgin, the sacred treasure of the glory of God, is led today into the
house of the Lord, and with her she brings the grace of the divine
Spirit. Of her God's angels sing in praise: "She is indeed the
heavenly Tabernacle." (P. 195 Menaion)

From Small Vespers:

O ye gates of the sanctuary, into the Holy of Holies receive ye a Virgin,
the spotless Tabernacle of God the Almighty.

Ye virgins, joyfully bearing torches, attend the pure Virgin on her way, as
she enters the Holy of Holies, the Bride of the King of all.

The living Bridal Chamber of God the Word receives bread from the hands of a
divine angel, as she dwells in the Holy of holies.

From Great Vespers:

Led by the Holy Spirit, the holy Maid without spot is taken to dwell in the
Holy of Holies. By an angel is she fed, who is in truth the most holy Temple
of our Holy God. He has sanctified all things by her entry, and has made
godlike the fallen nature of fallen men.

After thy birth, O Lady and Bride of God, thou hast gone to dwell in the
temple of the Lord, there to be brought up in the Holy of Holies, for thou
art thyself holy: and Gabriel then was sent to thee, O Virgin all-undefiled,
to bring thee food. All the powers of heaven stood amazed, seeing the Holy
Spirit dwell in thee. Therefore, O Mother of God without stain or blemish,
glorified in heaven and on earth, save our kind.

Ann, truly blessed by God's grace, led with gladness into the temple of the
Lord the pure and ever-Virgin, who is full of grace, and she called the
young girls to go before her, lamps in hand. `Go, Child,' she said, `to Him
who gave thee unto me; be unto Him an offering and a sweet smelling incense.
Go into the place which none may enter: learn its mysteries and prepare
thyself to become the pleasing and beautiful dwelling-place of Jesus, who
grants the world great mercy.'

From Matins:

From Eve of old the transgression came upon mankind, and now from Eve's
stock has flowered forth our restoration and incorruption, even the
Theotokos, who is brought today into the house of God.

Be glad today, O Joachim, and rejoice exceedingly in spirit, O Ann, who now
present unto the Lord your daughter, as a three-year old victim of
sacrifice, holy and utterly without spot.

The ewe-lamb of God without spot, the dove without blemish, the tabernacle
that is to hold God, the sanctuary of the glory, has chosen to dwell in the
holy temple.

Three years old in the flesh and many years old in the spirit, more spacious
than the heavens and higher than the powers above, let the Bride of God be
praised in song.

Seeing the beauty of thy soul, O undefiled Virgin, Zacharias cried out with
faith: `Thou art our deliverance, thou art the joy of all. Thou art our
restoration, through whom the Incomprehensible appears comprehensible to
me.'

O Virgin all-undefiled, past understanding is thy wonders! Strange is the
manner of thy birth: strange is the manner of thy growing. Strange and most
marvellous are all things concerning thee, O Bride of God, and they are
beyond the telling of mortal men.

A child in the flesh but perfect in soul, the holy Ark enters into the house
of God, there to feed upon divine grace.

The ranks of angels rejoiced exceedingly and spirits of the righteous were
glad, when the Mother of God was led into the sanctuary.

Mary without spot rejoiced in body and spirit, dwelling as a sacred vessel
in the temple of the Lord.

Receiving heavenly food, she who was to become the Mother of Christ the
Saviour according to the flesh, increased in wisdom and grace.

O pure Theotokos, thou hast a clean and shining beauty of soul, and art
filled from heaven with the grace of God. Thou dost ever enlighten with
eternal light those who cry aloud in gladness: O pure Virgin, thou art truly
high above all.

Beholding the entry of the All-Pure, the angels were struck with amazement,
seeing how she entered marvelously into the Holy of Holies.

Thy wonders, O pure Theotokos, surpass the power of words. For in thee I see
something beyond speech; a body that was never subject to the taint of sin.
Therefore in thanksgiving I cry to thee: O pure Virgin, thou art truly high
above all.

Angels and men, let us honour the entry of the Virgin, for in glory she has
gone into the Holy of Holies.




Mary, do you continue to offer this as proof that the liturgical texts of the Orthodox feasts proclaim the Immaculate Conception?  I just read these hymns, and I can't see anything that speaks of the Virgin Mary being preserved from all stain of original sin (whatever that means) from the moment of her conception.  I can certainly see mention of her as the "immaculate one", but I see nothing to imply that she was immaculate from the moment of her conception.  I'm not attacking you or anything.  I just don't see what you see.
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« Reply #1051 on: May 21, 2010, 05:10:04 AM »

With regard to the quotations which are being set forth, with a claim that they teach the IC ....  I see that the Catholic Encyclopedia takes a more restrained approach to them...

"From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
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« Reply #1052 on: May 21, 2010, 08:13:40 AM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.



You are almost as dangerous with your misrepresentations as Fr Kucharek who stoops to lying to support his partisan position.   This attempt to deceive us is beyond belief.  Unfortunately the poor Catholic sods reading Kucharek's book will take him at face value and not check the letter.   Contrary to what he says, the letter by the Patriarch and the bishops assesses the Immaculate Conception as a perversion of the ancient faith.

So Kucharek lied about this letter.  Perhaps he had never seen it and was replying on false information presented by others?  It is more than clear that the Patriarch's concern is NOT the manner of the implementation of the IC by the Pope but simply that the IC is false per se.


And if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century read the Creed with the addition, or used unleavened bread, or accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire, or sprinkling instead of baptism, or the immaculate conception of the ever-Virgin, or the temporal power, or the infallibility and absolutism of the Bishop of Rome, we have no more to say. But if, on the contrary, it is plainly demonstrated, as those of the Latins themselves, who love the truth, also acknowledge, that the Eastern and orthodox catholic Church of Christ holds fast the anciently transmitted doctrines which were at that time professed in common both in the East and the West, and that the Western Church perverted them by divers innovations, then it is clear, even to children, that the more natural way to union is the return of the Western Church to the ancient doctrinal and administrative condition of things; for the faith does not change in any way with time or circumstances, but remains the same always and everywhere..."

The Patriarch and bishops also say that the IC is a novel doctrine unknown to the Church and a "substantial difference between the two churches respecting the faith" and something "created in the West" and they assert that Jesus Christ is alone pure and immaculate.

XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).

XIV. Passing over, then, these serious and substantial differences between the two churches respecting the faith, which differences, as has been said before, were created in the West..."


The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx


Is this the letter that he cites in his book?  I think not.

It would be interesting to get the letter that was sent directly to the Pope in response and not just look at this public encyclical.

You might find that we have another Bishop Ware in action.

Mary
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« Reply #1053 on: May 21, 2010, 08:16:34 AM »

With regard to the quotations which are being set forth, with a claim that they teach the IC ....  I see that the Catholic Encyclopedia takes a more restrained approach to them...

"From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

This also demonstrates that for quite a long time there were Latin rite Catholics who did not think much of the over-blown poetic texts in the Byzantine Liturgy.

Now you seem to be confirming what I once thought was their disingenuous and badly considered opinions.

Apparently people here are saying that these texts are merely poetic hyperbole.

So be it.

M.
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« Reply #1054 on: May 21, 2010, 08:22:26 AM »

The Immaculate Conception of Mary

by Dr. Robert Schihl

Eastern Church:

    * celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th to the 9th Century;


The baldheaded effrontery of the deception is unbelievable!!   This is a dishonest man.

We have a feast of Saint Peter..... Will Schihl present it as proof that we have always believed in the Pope of Rome's universal jurisdiction?  Angry

Celebrated (past tense) a feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th and 9th centuries? The Orthodox still do, 1200 years later!

And the Orthodox feast is of Apostles Peter and Paul, where both apostles are spoken of with equally high regard.

This Schihl fellow oughta brush up on Orthodox liturgical history.  Roll Eyes



Your logic here fails.  The feast of St. Anne predates the 8th and 9th centuries.

So the question really is what is Father Casimir talking about specifically. 

In the west the feast of the Conception of St. Anne celebrates the barren woman conceiving.

The feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary celebrates her wondrous state of being at the moment of her conception.

Father Casimir would have been well aware of the feast of St. Anne and so he is talking about something other than that feast.

Rather than say he's a liar and an idiot, it might be useful to try to find out what he's talking about.

Mary
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« Reply #1055 on: May 21, 2010, 08:42:50 AM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.



You are almost as dangerous with your misrepresentations as Fr Kucharek who stoops to lying to support his partisan position.   This attempt to deceive us is beyond belief.  Unfortunately the poor Catholic sods reading Kucharek's book will take him at face value and not check the letter.   Contrary to what he says, the letter by the Patriarch and the bishops assesses the Immaculate Conception as a perversion of the ancient faith.

So Kucharek lied about this letter.  Perhaps he had never seen it and was replying on false information presented by others?  It is more than clear that the Patriarch's concern is NOT the manner of the implementation of the IC by the Pope but simply that the IC is false per se.


And if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century read the Creed with the addition, or used unleavened bread, or accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire, or sprinkling instead of baptism, or the immaculate conception of the ever-Virgin, or the temporal power, or the infallibility and absolutism of the Bishop of Rome, we have no more to say. But if, on the contrary, it is plainly demonstrated, as those of the Latins themselves, who love the truth, also acknowledge, that the Eastern and orthodox catholic Church of Christ holds fast the anciently transmitted doctrines which were at that time professed in common both in the East and the West, and that the Western Church perverted them by divers innovations, then it is clear, even to children, that the more natural way to union is the return of the Western Church to the ancient doctrinal and administrative condition of things; for the faith does not change in any way with time or circumstances, but remains the same always and everywhere..."

The Patriarch and bishops also say that the IC is a novel doctrine unknown to the Church and a "substantial difference between the two churches respecting the faith" and something "created in the West" and they assert that Jesus Christ is alone pure and immaculate.

XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).

XIV. Passing over, then, these serious and substantial differences between the two churches respecting the faith, which differences, as has been said before, were created in the West..."


The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx


Is this the letter that he cites in his book?  I think not.

Then cite/prove. Don't assUme.

Quote
It would be interesting to get the letter that was sent directly to the Pope in response and not just look at this public encyclical.

Does such a letter exist, or are you wishing it did?


Quote
You might find that we have another Bishop Ware in action.

Given the signatures of the Holy Synod, I doubt it.
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« Reply #1056 on: May 21, 2010, 09:13:19 AM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.



You are almost as dangerous with your misrepresentations as Fr Kucharek who stoops to lying to support his partisan position.   This attempt to deceive us is beyond belief.  Unfortunately the poor Catholic sods reading Kucharek's book will take him at face value and not check the letter.   Contrary to what he says, the letter by the Patriarch and the bishops assesses the Immaculate Conception as a perversion of the ancient faith.

So Kucharek lied about this letter.  Perhaps he had never seen it and was replying on false information presented by others?  It is more than clear that the Patriarch's concern is NOT the manner of the implementation of the IC by the Pope but simply that the IC is false per se.


And if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century read the Creed with the addition, or used unleavened bread, or accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire, or sprinkling instead of baptism, or the immaculate conception of the ever-Virgin, or the temporal power, or the infallibility and absolutism of the Bishop of Rome, we have no more to say. But if, on the contrary, it is plainly demonstrated, as those of the Latins themselves, who love the truth, also acknowledge, that the Eastern and orthodox catholic Church of Christ holds fast the anciently transmitted doctrines which were at that time professed in common both in the East and the West, and that the Western Church perverted them by divers innovations, then it is clear, even to children, that the more natural way to union is the return of the Western Church to the ancient doctrinal and administrative condition of things; for the faith does not change in any way with time or circumstances, but remains the same always and everywhere..."

The Patriarch and bishops also say that the IC is a novel doctrine unknown to the Church and a "substantial difference between the two churches respecting the faith" and something "created in the West" and they assert that Jesus Christ is alone pure and immaculate.

XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).

XIV. Passing over, then, these serious and substantial differences between the two churches respecting the faith, which differences, as has been said before, were created in the West..."


The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx


Is this the letter that he cites in his book?  I think not.

If the Synod of Constantinople sent TWO letters Pope Leo XIII in 1895... well, you had better produce the second one please.
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« Reply #1057 on: May 21, 2010, 09:20:03 AM »

With regard to the quotations which are being set forth, with a claim that they teach the IC ....  I see that the Catholic Encyclopedia takes a more restrained approach to them...

"From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

This also demonstrates that for quite a long time there were Latin rite Catholics who did not think much of the over-blown poetic texts in the Byzantine Liturgy.

Now you seem to be confirming what I once thought was their disingenuous and badly considered opinions.

Apparently people here are saying that these texts are merely poetic hyperbole.

So be it.

No, Maria, YOU are calling them poetic hyberbole.

I find this really crass and an insult to the great Church Father and hymnographer (Saint Andrew of Crete?) who composed this text.
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« Reply #1058 on: May 21, 2010, 09:30:05 AM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.



You are almost as dangerous with your misrepresentations as Fr Kucharek who stoops to lying to support his partisan position.   This attempt to deceive us is beyond belief.  Unfortunately the poor Catholic sods reading Kucharek's book will take him at face value and not check the letter.   Contrary to what he says, the letter by the Patriarch and the bishops assesses the Immaculate Conception as a perversion of the ancient faith.

So Kucharek lied about this letter.  Perhaps he had never seen it and was replying on false information presented by others?  It is more than clear that the Patriarch's concern is NOT the manner of the implementation of the IC by the Pope but simply that the IC is false per se.


And if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century read the Creed with the addition, or used unleavened bread, or accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire, or sprinkling instead of baptism, or the immaculate conception of the ever-Virgin, or the temporal power, or the infallibility and absolutism of the Bishop of Rome, we have no more to say. But if, on the contrary, it is plainly demonstrated, as those of the Latins themselves, who love the truth, also acknowledge, that the Eastern and orthodox catholic Church of Christ holds fast the anciently transmitted doctrines which were at that time professed in common both in the East and the West, and that the Western Church perverted them by divers innovations, then it is clear, even to children, that the more natural way to union is the return of the Western Church to the ancient doctrinal and administrative condition of things; for the faith does not change in any way with time or circumstances, but remains the same always and everywhere..."

The Patriarch and bishops also say that the IC is a novel doctrine unknown to the Church and a "substantial difference between the two churches respecting the faith" and something "created in the West" and they assert that Jesus Christ is alone pure and immaculate.

XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).

XIV. Passing over, then, these serious and substantial differences between the two churches respecting the faith, which differences, as has been said before, were created in the West..."


The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx


Is this the letter that he cites in his book?  I think not.

Then cite/prove. Don't assUme.

Quote
It would be interesting to get the letter that was sent directly to the Pope in response and not just look at this public encyclical.

Does such a letter exist, or are you wishing it did?


Quote
You might find that we have another Bishop Ware in action.

Given the signatures of the Holy Synod, I doubt it.

You AssUMe when you suggest that there is not a private letter to the Vatican.  That is how things are done in fact.

The Encyclical never came out till after the dogmatic constitution.  The encyclical was a reaction, not a response.

So there is logical evidence but we will both have to AssUMe until one of us has better evidence that there was NO other letter.

Mary
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« Reply #1059 on: May 21, 2010, 09:33:47 AM »

With regard to the quotations which are being set forth, with a claim that they teach the IC ....  I see that the Catholic Encyclopedia takes a more restrained approach to them...

"From this summary it appears that the belief in Mary's immunity from sin in her conception was prevalent amongst the Fathers, especially those of the Greek Church. The rhetorical character, however, of many of these and similar passages prevents us from laying too much stress on them, and interpreting them in a strictly literal sense. The Greek Fathers never formally or explicitly discussed the question of the Immaculate Conception."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

This also demonstrates that for quite a long time there were Latin rite Catholics who did not think much of the over-blown poetic texts in the Byzantine Liturgy.

Now you seem to be confirming what I once thought was their disingenuous and badly considered opinions.

Apparently people here are saying that these texts are merely poetic hyperbole.

So be it.

No, Maria, YOU are calling them poetic hyberbole.

I find this really crass and an insult to the great Church Father and hymnographer (Saint Andrew of Crete?) who composed this text.

I think St. Andrew would have no difficulty with the teaching of the Immaculate Conception.

I also know that there are notes in this thread from Orthodox correspondents who suggest that they are merely poetic texts that do not indicate anything extraordinary about the Virgin Mother.

So hyperbole is not out of line in describing the responses that I've been getting here.

Toss your incendiaries someplace else. 

M.
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« Reply #1060 on: May 21, 2010, 09:37:41 AM »

The Immaculate Conception of Mary

by Dr. Robert Schihl

Eastern Church:

    * celebrated a Feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th to the 9th Century;


The baldheaded effrontery of the deception is unbelievable!!   This is a dishonest man.

We have a feast of Saint Peter..... Will Schihl present it as proof that we have always believed in the Pope of Rome's universal jurisdiction?  Angry

Celebrated (past tense) a feast of the Conception of Mary in the 8th and 9th centuries? The Orthodox still do, 1200 years later!

And the Orthodox feast is of Apostles Peter and Paul, where both apostles are spoken of with equally high regard.

This Schihl fellow oughta brush up on Orthodox liturgical history.  Roll Eyes



Your logic here fails.  The feast of St. Anne predates the 8th and 9th centuries.

So the question really is what is Father Casimir talking about specifically. 

In the west the feast of the Conception of St. Anne celebrates the barren woman conceiving.

The feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary celebrates her wondrous state of being at the moment of her conception.

Father Casimir would have been well aware of the feast of St. Anne and so he is talking about something other than that feast.

Rather than say he's a liar and an idiot, it might be useful to try to find out what he's talking about.

Since in the East the feast of the Conception of St. Anne celebrates the barren woman conceiving, if Fr. Casimir is talking about something other than that feast (a big if, given your read on so much here already), I doubt it would be useful.
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« Reply #1061 on: May 21, 2010, 09:40:19 AM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.



You are almost as dangerous with your misrepresentations as Fr Kucharek who stoops to lying to support his partisan position.   This attempt to deceive us is beyond belief.  Unfortunately the poor Catholic sods reading Kucharek's book will take him at face value and not check the letter.   Contrary to what he says, the letter by the Patriarch and the bishops assesses the Immaculate Conception as a perversion of the ancient faith.

So Kucharek lied about this letter.  Perhaps he had never seen it and was replying on false information presented by others?  It is more than clear that the Patriarch's concern is NOT the manner of the implementation of the IC by the Pope but simply that the IC is false per se.


And if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century read the Creed with the addition, or used unleavened bread, or accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire, or sprinkling instead of baptism, or the immaculate conception of the ever-Virgin, or the temporal power, or the infallibility and absolutism of the Bishop of Rome, we have no more to say. But if, on the contrary, it is plainly demonstrated, as those of the Latins themselves, who love the truth, also acknowledge, that the Eastern and orthodox catholic Church of Christ holds fast the anciently transmitted doctrines which were at that time professed in common both in the East and the West, and that the Western Church perverted them by divers innovations, then it is clear, even to children, that the more natural way to union is the return of the Western Church to the ancient doctrinal and administrative condition of things; for the faith does not change in any way with time or circumstances, but remains the same always and everywhere..."

The Patriarch and bishops also say that the IC is a novel doctrine unknown to the Church and a "substantial difference between the two churches respecting the faith" and something "created in the West" and they assert that Jesus Christ is alone pure and immaculate.

XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).

XIV. Passing over, then, these serious and substantial differences between the two churches respecting the faith, which differences, as has been said before, were created in the West..."


The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx


Is this the letter that he cites in his book?  I think not.

Then cite/prove. Don't assUme.

Quote
It would be interesting to get the letter that was sent directly to the Pope in response and not just look at this public encyclical.

Does such a letter exist, or are you wishing it did?


Quote
You might find that we have another Bishop Ware in action.

Given the signatures of the Holy Synod, I doubt it.

You AssUMe when you suggest that there is not a private letter to the Vatican.  That is how things are done in fact.

The Encyclical never came out till after the dogmatic constitution.  The encyclical was a reaction, not a response.

So there is logical evidence but we will both have to AssUMe until one of us has better evidence that there was NO other letter.

Mary

This is sounding a little crazy!

There is some secret letter hidden in the Vatican.  Fr Kucharek was allowed access to it.  It proves that the East has no doctrinal objection to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.  But the Vatican is keeping it secret.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #1062 on: May 21, 2010, 09:49:24 AM »


It just isn't so, not in the denigratory way you mean.   One has only to think of the phrase which ends most Orthodox Services:  "Most Holy Mother of God, save us."  That term "save us" has as number of of fluid meanings.  I assume your own Services end with the same phrase?

One thinks of the innumerable times that the Saints are praised as "divine" in the Services.

Much of this is metaphor and hyperbole.laugh   Both Orthodox and Eastern Catholics delight in it and never expect Roman Catholics to impose dogma on it or to extract  dogma from it.


The response of the Catholic Melkites at Vatican II to the new title for the Mother of God "Mother of the Church" is very similar to the Orthodox response and highlights what I am trying to say.

We have no problem with heaping an infinite number of praises upon the Mother of God.


The Melkite response is well worth the read. Here is an extract:


It will have been noticed that during the passionate debates that characterized
the Council’s discussion of this schema “On the Virgin Mary,” Patriarch Maximos
and the Melkite Greek Fathers refused to intervene. They were astonished to
their very depths at the importance that was attached to recognizing or refusing
this new title “Mother of the Church” to the Theotokos.

Accustomed to the poetic language of their liturgy, in which the Virgin is saluted
with a thousand titles, they had no trouble in accepting this new title, if it is
interpreted in a large, liturgical, and poetic sense, or in refusing it, if it is interpreted
in a sense that is too realistic and too literal.

Please go to (.pfd)
http://melkite.org/xCouncil/Council%20Chapter%204.doc
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« Reply #1063 on: May 21, 2010, 10:02:05 AM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.  The following is from Father Casimir's book again.  Note the concluding text in bold:

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.



You are almost as dangerous with your misrepresentations as Fr Kucharek who stoops to lying to support his partisan position.   This attempt to deceive us is beyond belief.  Unfortunately the poor Catholic sods reading Kucharek's book will take him at face value and not check the letter.   Contrary to what he says, the letter by the Patriarch and the bishops assesses the Immaculate Conception as a perversion of the ancient faith.

So Kucharek lied about this letter.  Perhaps he had never seen it and was replying on false information presented by others?  It is more than clear that the Patriarch's concern is NOT the manner of the implementation of the IC by the Pope but simply that the IC is false per se.


And if the Westerns prove from the teaching of the holy Fathers and the divinely assembled Ecumenical Councils that the then orthodox Roman Church, which was throughout the West, even before the ninth century read the Creed with the addition, or used unleavened bread, or accepted the doctrine of a purgatorial fire, or sprinkling instead of baptism, or the immaculate conception of the ever-Virgin, or the temporal power, or the infallibility and absolutism of the Bishop of Rome, we have no more to say. But if, on the contrary, it is plainly demonstrated, as those of the Latins themselves, who love the truth, also acknowledge, that the Eastern and orthodox catholic Church of Christ holds fast the anciently transmitted doctrines which were at that time professed in common both in the East and the West, and that the Western Church perverted them by divers innovations, then it is clear, even to children, that the more natural way to union is the return of the Western Church to the ancient doctrinal and administrative condition of things; for the faith does not change in any way with time or circumstances, but remains the same always and everywhere..."

The Patriarch and bishops also say that the IC is a novel doctrine unknown to the Church and a "substantial difference between the two churches respecting the faith" and something "created in the West" and they assert that Jesus Christ is alone pure and immaculate.

XIII. The one holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the seven Ecumenical Councils teaches that the supernatural incarnation of the only-begotten Son and Word of God, of the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, is alone pure and immaculate; but the Papal Church scarcely forty years ago again made an innovation by laying down a novel dogma concerning the immaculate conception of the Mother of God and ever-Virgin Mary, which was unknown to the ancient Church (and strongly opposed at different times even by the more distinguished among the papal theologians).

XIV. Passing over, then, these serious and substantial differences between the two churches respecting the faith, which differences, as has been said before, were created in the West..."


The Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx


Is this the letter that he cites in his book?  I think not.

Then cite/prove. Don't assUme.

Quote
It would be interesting to get the letter that was sent directly to the Pope in response and not just look at this public encyclical.

Does such a letter exist, or are you wishing it did?


Quote
You might find that we have another Bishop Ware in action.

Given the signatures of the Holy Synod, I doubt it.

You AssUMe when you suggest that there is not a private letter to the Vatican.  That is how things are done in fact.

The Encyclical never came out till after the dogmatic constitution.  The encyclical was a reaction, not a response.

So there is logical evidence but we will both have to AssUMe until one of us has better evidence that there was NO other letter.

Mary

This is sounding a little crazy!

There is some secret letter hidden in the Vatican.  Fr Kucharek was allowed access to it.  It proves that the East has no doctrinal objection to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.  But the Vatican is keeping it secret.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

It was seeming strange to me as well so I went and found my copy of his book.

Εχχλησιαστιχη Αληθεια (Constantinople, 1880-1923, Vol. 15 (1895), p.244

This is the reference that Father Casimir uses to say what he says about the general attitude of the Greeks to the concept of Immaculate Conception.

I was wrong I think in believe there was a letter as a reply that was different from the encyclical.

But until you were to check his source, you cannot honestly say that Father Casimir can't read or he lied.

But his citations of Greek Orthodox clergy who did preach and teach the Immaculate Conception and also his Slavic references and his referencing the Old Believers certainly indicate that the mockery with which you all have greeted me and my comments and my experiences here is really more Orthodox poetic hyperbole.  But I have come to expect nothing less from my dear friends the Internet Orthodox.

You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.

I will say it again.  Thank God, I have wonderful Orthodox parishes nearby where I can go and heal from the bitterness exuded in these public discussions.

Mary

 

Mary
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« Reply #1064 on: May 21, 2010, 10:05:26 AM »


It just isn't so, not in the denigratory way you mean.   One has only to think of the phrase which ends most Orthodox Services:  "Most Holy Mother of God, save us."  That term "save us" has as number of of fluid meanings.  I assume your own Services end with the same phrase?

One thinks of the innumerable times that the Saints are praised as "divine" in the Services.

Much of this is metaphor and hyperbole.laugh   Both Orthodox and Eastern Catholics delight in it and never expect Roman Catholics to impose dogma on it or to extract  dogma from it.


The response of the Catholic Melkites at Vatican II to the new title for the Mother of God "Mother of the Church" is very similar to the Orthodox response and highlights what I am trying to say.

We have no problem with heaping an infinite number of praises upon the Mother of God.


The Melkite response is well worth the read. Here is an extract:


It will have been noticed that during the passionate debates that characterized
the Council’s discussion of this schema “On the Virgin Mary,” Patriarch Maximos
and the Melkite Greek Fathers refused to intervene. They were astonished to
their very depths at the importance that was attached to recognizing or refusing
this new title “Mother of the Church” to the Theotokos.

Accustomed to the poetic language of their liturgy, in which the Virgin is saluted
with a thousand titles, they had no trouble in accepting this new title, if it is
interpreted in a large, liturgical, and poetic sense, or in refusing it, if it is interpreted
in a sense that is too realistic and too literal.

Please go to (.pfd)
http://melkite.org/xCouncil/Council%20Chapter%204.doc


There's no doubt about the willingness to heap praise.

The question the Catholic leaves with is whether or not there's any meaning in it or if it is just vain flattery taken from the imagination of the poet.  Apparently there's meaning if and only if it does not support a Catholic position.

Mary
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« Reply #1065 on: May 21, 2010, 10:12:36 AM »

I will say it again.  Thank God, I have wonderful Orthodox parishes nearby where I can go

Perhaps you can tell us where these Orthodox parishes are located so that we can inform them that the IC innovation is not an Orthodox teaching.  Wink

and heal from the bitterness exuded in these public discussions. 

There you go again.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #1066 on: May 21, 2010, 10:13:17 AM »


But until you were to check his source, you cannot honestly say that Father Casimir can't read or he lied.


Kucharek lied or someone lied to him and he was such a shoddy scholar that he did not check the letter,

He wrote and you thought it important enough to bold it and call our attention to it::

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.
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« Reply #1067 on: May 21, 2010, 10:16:22 AM »

Apparently there's meaning if and only if it does not support a Catholic position.

On the contrary--all of the beautifully poetic hymns to the Panagia have meaning to the Catholic position.

Holy Orthodoxy is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #1068 on: May 21, 2010, 10:17:38 AM »



It is customary for the Vatican to contact Orthodox patriarchs when preparing to make a dogmation teaching.


Elijahmaria,

You need to start checking your facts before posting.  (Shades of Kucharek!)

The Immaculate Deception was defined in 1854.

The Papal Letter was written to the Eastern Church in 1894.

FORTY years after the event!!

True and I am aware that there's more for me to seek out in all this because there is nothing that the Catholic Church does by way of dogmatic definition or general Council that the Patriarchs are not contacted and offered the opportunity to respond.

Mary
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« Reply #1069 on: May 21, 2010, 10:19:18 AM »


But until you were to check his source, you cannot honestly say that Father Casimir can't read or he lied.


Kucharek lied or someone lied to him and he was such a shoddy ascholar that he did not check the letter,

He wrote and you thought it important enough to bold it and call our attention to it::

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.


Oh...That was fast.  Can you tell us, since you obviously went and looked, what is in the Greek reference that he used?

M.
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« Reply #1070 on: May 21, 2010, 10:28:20 AM »

I will say it again.  Thank God, I have wonderful Orthodox parishes nearby where I can go

Perhaps you can tell us where these Orthodox parishes are located so that we can inform them that the IC innovation is not an Orthodox teaching.  Wink

and heal from the bitterness exuded in these public discussions. 

There you go again.  Roll Eyes



Mickey...what is done here to Catholics is quite ugly.  It does sour me internally each time it is directed toward me or another Catholic on the board, but I fight it back each time, and in some sense I owe all of you a great debt of thanks for it is a kind of spiritual exercise that I could not have otherwise.

I have run an Orthodox-Catholic discussion list for many years and the only people that I have thrown off the list have been Catholics for being nasty to Orthodox believers.  Now I refuse to toss anyone and let people select on and off as they choose.  It gets tense but there's never the kind of mockery that one finds here.

People whose hearts and minds are so cramped are the losers.  Not those who struggle to keep an open heart and mind.

Mary

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« Reply #1071 on: May 21, 2010, 10:29:38 AM »


But until you were to check his source, you cannot honestly say that Father Casimir can't read or he lied.


Kucharek lied or someone lied to him and he was such a shoddy ascholar that he did not check the letter,

He wrote and you thought it important enough to bold it and call our attention to it::

When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.


Oh...That was fast.  Can you tell us, since you obviously went and looked, what is in the Greek reference that he used?

M.

What!!  Trying to palm off on me the work you ought to be doing to prove the doubtful things you claim! 

Mind you, if you pay for the trip, I'm happy to go to Rome and search the Vatican archives for the secret Anthimos letter to Pope Leo XIII. Do you want my bank account number?  laugh
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« Reply #1072 on: May 21, 2010, 10:34:35 AM »

Bump

There are still many loose ends here in terms of the assertion that there have historically been Orthodox believers who are reported to have preached and taught the Immaculate Conception.




It was seeming strange to me as well so I went and found my copy of his book.

Εχχλησιαστιχη Αληθεια (Constantinople, 1880-1923, Vol. 15 (1895), p.244

This is the reference that Father Casimir uses to say what he says about the general attitude of the Greeks to the concept of Immaculate Conception.

I was wrong I think in believe there was a letter as a reply that was different from the encyclical.

But until you were to check his source, you cannot honestly say that Father Casimir can't read or he lied.

But his citations of Greek Orthodox clergy who did preach and teach the Immaculate Conception and also his Slavic references and his referencing the Old Believers certainly indicate that the mockery with which you all have greeted me and my comments and my experiences here is really more Orthodox poetic hyperbole.  But I have come to expect nothing less from my dear friends the Internet Orthodox.

You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.

I will say it again.  Thank God, I have wonderful Orthodox parishes nearby where I can go and heal from the bitterness exuded in these public discussions.

Mary

 

Mary
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« Reply #1073 on: May 21, 2010, 10:42:09 AM »

Mickey...what is done here to Catholics is quite ugly.

We have proven that the Latin IC doctrine is an innovation. We have shown that the Holy Orthodox Church and Holy Fathers have never accepted such a concept.  We have pointed to the fact that many parishioners and clergy of Eastern Churches in communion with Rome do not accept this innovation.  We have refuted your attempts to prove otherwise. If you call this ugly---so be it.

It does sour me internally each time it is directed toward me

The only sour concept here is the attempt to show that Holy Orthodoxy somehow accepts a novel and innovative doctrine--without the Orthodox realizing it.  Shocked

in some sense I owe all of you a great debt of thanks for it is a kind of spiritual exercise that I could not have otherwise.

Funny---I was going to say the same thing to you.  This thread has been extremely helpful to me----- clarifying why this doctrine is novel, innovative and unnecessary.

It gets tense but there's never the kind of mockery that one finds here.

You continue to make accusations of mockery while you mock us.  Interesting tactic.

People whose hearts and minds are so cramped are the losers.  

Alas…….we agree.
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« Reply #1074 on: May 21, 2010, 10:47:12 AM »

Mickey...what is done here to Catholics is quite ugly.

We have proven that the Latin IC doctrine is an innovation. We have shown that the Holy Orthodox Church and Holy Fathers have never accepted such a concept.  We have pointed to the fact that many parishioners and clergy of Eastern Churches in communion with Rome do not accept this innovation.  We have refuted your attempts to prove otherwise. If you call this ugly---so be it.

You've asserted these things but no, this is not what I was referencing at all.

Bless you and keep you, Mickey.

M.
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« Reply #1075 on: May 21, 2010, 10:53:47 AM »


You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.


A list of references means nothing at all.   You need to locate the actual passages to which the references refer.  You need to place them in front of us.  You need to show us how each of them teaches the Immaculate Conception.

But you have shown a great reluctance about this.  One has the impression that you suspect the references will not support the IC and you are avoiding locating them and making them public

However.... bring them on..... let's see them.
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« Reply #1076 on: May 21, 2010, 10:54:06 AM »

You've asserted these things

Asserted with convincing documention and support.  Smiley

but no, this is not what I was referencing at all.

Post your references please.
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« Reply #1077 on: May 21, 2010, 11:18:47 AM »


You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.


A list of references means nothing at all.   You need to locate the actual passages to which the references refer.  You need to place them in front of us.  You need to show us how each of them teaches the Immaculate Conception.

But you have shown a great reluctance about this.  One has the impression that you suspect the references will not support the IC and you are avoiding locating them and making them public

However.... bring them on..... let's see them.

I have neither the language skills nor the material resources to do any of it.  But the references are there so I suspect that when the issue comes up formally, IF it ever comes up formally in our bilateral discussions all will become much more clear.  The credence I give to the sources comes directly from my interaction with cradle Orthodox who assure me that there is a history of the belief in Orthodoxy.

So as they say..."You can't take that away from me..."  angel

M.
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« Reply #1078 on: May 21, 2010, 11:19:49 AM »

God bless and keep you, Mickey.

You've asserted these things

Asserted with convincing documention and support.  Smiley

but no, this is not what I was referencing at all.

Post your references please.
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« Reply #1079 on: May 21, 2010, 11:36:21 AM »


You have also ignored Father Lev's list of references and they are even more extensive than the ones listed in Father Casimir's books.

But that is also typical.  Never look for ANYTHING that might indicate that the Catholic position may have some merit.


A list of references means nothing at all.   You need to locate the actual passages to which the references refer.  You need to place them in front of us.  You need to show us how each of them teaches the Immaculate Conception.

But you have shown a great reluctance about this.  One has the impression that you suspect the references will not support the IC and you are avoiding locating them and making them public

However.... bring them on..... let's see them.

I have neither the language skills nor the material resources to do any of it.  But the references are there so I suspect that when the issue comes up formally, IF it ever comes up formally in our bilateral discussions all will become much more clear.  The credence I give to the sources comes directly from my interaction with cradle Orthodox who assure me that there is a history of the belief in Orthodoxy.

So as they say..."You can't take that away from me..."  angel

M.

It is time to restate the Orthodox teaching....

The Mother of God was conceived in the same spiritual state as you and me, the Dalai Lama and Pope Benedict XVI.
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