A question on the Immaculate Conception

[elijahmaria]

Yes.  There's tons of good material available on-line.  I use some of it sometimes, but since I do not have to be as thorough for private use, there are things that I don't really need to spend time hunting day by day. 

Also don't forget about Ustav!!   I've been a member of ustav, off and on, for nearly 15 years so I don't worry about where to go to ask specific questions.

M.

My underwear is size 9.

It is so much easier to provide the trivial information rather than the information that is being requested. 

I don't understand why you don't believe that she Orthodox liturgical books. She is Byzantine. Why is that surprising to you?

I believe that Mary has these books.  I know from her own e-list Irenikon that she has a rich library of Orthodox  authors.  In fact I would think she makes do with darned size nine bloomers to pay for the books.  Mary is an Erasmus person:  "When I have a little money I buy books; if any is left I buy food and clothes."


Here is something interesting on liturgical material in English...

" What do Antiochian, OCA, and other non-ROCOR parishes use for the Octoechos and Menaion in English services?  The OCA parish I used to attend used texts that were available electronically from the OCA's Holy Myrrh bearers Monastery in NY.  These were never published, I don't think, and at least the version I have is not at all complete.  Aside from one Sunday Octoechos from the Monastery of the Veil, the only full Octoechos I'm aware of in English was translated by Reader Isaac Lambertsen in ROCOR.  Before Holy Transfiguration Monastery published their Menaion a few years back, the one translated by Rdr Isaac in ROCOR is the only full Menaion that I was aware of.  The only complete Pentecostarions in English that I am aware of were published by HTM and ROCOR.  Again, what do Antiochians, OCA, and other non-ROCOR parishes use as the Octoechos, Menaion, and Pentecostarion texts for their English services?  What about St. Tikhon's monastery, what have they been using for the daily texts all of these years and why haven't they published an Octoechos or Menaion?"

and from an OCA priest:

"St Vladimir's Seminary and St Tikhon's have been using their own texts of all of those services for more than 50 years.  Just because these texts weren't officially published doesn't mean they haven't been widely used or dissmeninated in the OCA."

[Irish Hermit]

Here's the data on the text Father Al,

Wider Than Heaven: Eighth-century Homilies on the Mother of God
Introduction and Translation: Mary B. Cunningham

Not easy to find...

http://skete.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2705

[elijahmaria]

My underwear is size 9.

It is so much easier to provide the trivial information rather than the information that is being requested. 

I don't understand why you don't believe that she Orthodox liturgical books. She is Byzantine. Why is that surprising to you?

I believe that Mary has these books.  I know from her own e-list Irenikon that she has a rich library of Orthodox  authors.  In fact I would think she makes do with darned size nine bloomers to pay for the books.  Mary is an Erasmus person:  "When I have a little money I buy books; if any is left I buy food and clothes."

Here's one to light up the boards.

I have the New Skete Psalter which I love best of all possible Psalters to date.

M.

[Mickey]

I have the New Skete Psalter which I love best of all possible Psalters to date.

My favorite is the "Psalter According to the Seventy"--HTM. 

[Irish Hermit]

My underwear is size 9.

It is so much easier to provide the trivial information rather than the information that is being requested.  

I don't understand why you don't believe that she Orthodox liturgical books. She is Byzantine. Why is that surprising to you?

I believe that Mary has these books.  I know from her own e-list Irenikon that she has a rich library of Orthodox  authors.  In fact I would think she makes do with darned size nine bloomers to pay for the books.  Mary is an Erasmus person:  "When I have a little money I buy books; if any is left I buy food and clothes."

Here's one to light up the boards.

I have the New Skete Psalter which I love best of all possible Psalters to date.

M.

I don't know New Skete's Psalter.  Would you say something about it....

But for me, it is Coverdale all the way....and now......Coverdale Comes to the Russian Church

"The Russian Orthodox Psalter" in English (basically the Coverdale Psalter) has been approved and authorized by the Synodal Translation Committee of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Chairman.)

By giving its blessing to this new adaptation, the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is not endorsing this new psalter over the well-established Boston version, but letting the Church's membership know that this new adaptation is also approved for use in public worship and accurately reflects the Greek and Slavonic received texts.


The Blessed Isabel Hapgood is all I have used for all my English life since the 1960s.  Indeed very little else was available at that time apart from Nassar but I always thought the Nassar English was atrocious.  Hapgood introduced me to the Miles Coverdale Psalms (until then I had known only the Douai ones.)    Two decades of using Hapgood for our daily English Vespers, Matins and Hours meant that it is Coverdale's Psalms which are fixed in my memory.  Some of the most beautiful English on earth and well adapted for intoning.


This lecture below is a fine tribute to Hapgood
http://justus.anglican.org/resources/pc/women/hapgood/ledkovsky.pdf

A Linguistic Bridge to Orthodoxy
In Memoriam : Isabel Florence Hapgood
By Marina Ledkovsky
Professor Emeritus of Slavic Languages and Literatures
Barnard College, Columbia University

A lecture delivered at the Twelfth Annual Russian Orthodox Musicians Conference, 7-11 October 1998, Washington, D.C.

"...EASTERN ORTHODOX Christians in America know Isabel Hapgood by name, but possibly not much about her life and activities. And yet, she merits to be remembered with respect and gratitude, as she was a champion in the awesome task of translating Orthodox liturgical texts from Church Slavonic into English.

"This year is the 70th anniversary of Isabel Hapgood's death and almost the 150th of her birth. Therefore, it is indeed fitting to at least inform ourselves about her personality and her contribution to the Englishspeaking Orthodox communities in the United States......"
 
 
 
 

[Mickey]

The Blessed Isabel Hapgood is all I have used for all my English life since the 1960s. 

Hapgood was used exclusively at the OCA Church where I was Chrismated.  I was very fond of the translations. 

I am looking forward to browsing the Coverdale Psalter.

[John Larocque]

The Russian Orthodox Psalter has been renamed the "Slavic Orthodox Psalter".
http://www.lulu.com/product/item/the-slavic-orthodox-psalter/10634174

You're not just getting the Psalms, you're getting additional prayers and devotional materials, organized for recitational use. Not even the KJV could pre-empt the autority of the Coverdale/Book of Common Prayer. Like Fr. Ambrose, my first Psalter was the Douay, but my traditional-language preference is the BCP. This revision is worth owning. There's a PDF link at Lulu so you may be able to get a free electronic version.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/346956/The%20Slavic%20(was%3A%20Russian)%20Orth
http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com/2010/01/first-last-central.html

[elijahmaria]

Here's the data on the text Father Al,

Wider Than Heaven: Eighth-century Homilies on the Mother of God
Introduction and Translation: Mary B. Cunningham

Not easy to find...

http://skete.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2705

It is available on Amazon but I don't know if it is on Amazon International.

SVS still markets it as well.

[elijahmaria]

My underwear is size 9.

It is so much easier to provide the trivial information rather than the information that is being requested.  

I don't understand why you don't believe that she Orthodox liturgical books. She is Byzantine. Why is that surprising to you?

I believe that Mary has these books.  I know from her own e-list Irenikon that she has a rich library of Orthodox  authors.  In fact I would think she makes do with darned size nine bloomers to pay for the books.  Mary is an Erasmus person:  "When I have a little money I buy books; if any is left I buy food and clothes."

Here's one to light up the boards.

I have the New Skete Psalter which I love best of all possible Psalters to date.

M.

I don't know New Skete's Psalter.  Would you say something about it....

Sure.  I really don't like it best of all possible.  I am too much of a liturgical junkie for that.  That was hyperbole. 

But I do prefer it to use the Skete Psalter when I am alone in reading the psalter.  I plain-chant the hymns of the hours but I tend to read the psalter aloud, and the Skete Psalter is the simplest and most straightforward of them all to read aloud and retain the message of the psalm in long-standing periods of recitation.  I don't get lulled into a blank recitation nor am I distracted by something that is almost too pretty.

They can be chanted of course, but because they are translated rather than paraphrased, they lack the anticipated western poetic musicality of the more paraphrased renditions of the Psalter...which I also love, mind you. 

The Skete translation is not the same as but is very close to the Duay translations in feel and cadence and order of meaning.

But when it comes to the Psalms that I have memorized they are directly our of my KJV bible...because it is easier for me to commit music to memory than it is to commit plain-text.

So they all serve a purpose and so I use them all, or as many as I have been blessed to obtain.

M.

[LBK]

It seems that this thread has become sidetracked by a discussion on liturgical translations.

Back to the matter at hand:

Assertions have been made that the IC was taught as Orthodox doctrine "from the beginning", then suppressed in about the 15th century.

I wrote this earlier:

"I can also confirm that the writer of the Canon at Matins is St Andrew of Crete, and the writer of the last hymn at Lord, I have cried is St Germanus of Constantinople, both contemporaries of St John of Damascus (late 7th-early to mid-8th C). So this feast is definitely pre-schism by a long shot, and the bulk of the hymnography written by a man who knew his onions when it came to the Mother of God. I've also found out that St Germanus was hardly ignorant about the Mother of God either - he wrote a number of discourses on various feasts of the Mother of God, as well as good amounts of hymnography for her feasts as well as for various saints."

Comments, anyone?

[Cosmos]

Dear brothers and sisters:

All differences of dogmatic belief and theology aside, one thing is clear. All parties to this debate are equally strong in their faith and passionately loyal to their Church. These are admirable qualities indeed, and no fault or blame is found in that whatsoever.

Nonetheless, this solitary old monk can't help but feel that Our Lady Theotokos, the Blessed Virgin Mary, would never wish to be the cause of such mundane argument and disrespect between devout Christian men and women anywhere at anytime. The Mother of God, who ever implores us to pray for peace in the world and to sow seeds of love among ourselves, as Our Lord taught us to do, no doubt weeps to witness our profane words and behavior with one another here.

I humbly submit to you all, therefore, that such discussion debases her immaculate purity and sanctity for the sake of ignoble contention over issues that no one can irrefutably prove one way or the other at this time. And so, perhaps we should all simply pray that the Mother of God may grant each of us more profound insights and revelations into the mystery of her unique role in the redemption of mankind, while sincerely praying for one another as well.

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone by speaking so boldly!

Light and Love to all ~

Cosmos  

[stashko]

This Image not kosher... the Holy Icon Kosher....Whats with the catholics and nudity in there religios art...

[Irish Hermit]

 I take Father Casimir Kucharek's sources seriously. 

Below are the sources listed by Kucharek.  After experiencing the atrocious misuse of quotes in many Catholic writings, especially those supporting the notion of papal supremacy, I am suspicious.   I admit that I am always uneasy about quotes which are not quoted.

Is there a possibility that we could see them?


In support of this statement, Fr. Kucharek cites these
references in a footnote on pp. 355-356:

Among the better known ninth to thirteenth century Byzantine
theologians:

Patriarch Photius in his homilies _De
Annuntiatione_ and _De Nativitate Deiparae_ (S. Aristarchis,
_Photiou logoi kai homiliai_, Vol. II [Constantinople, 1900],
pp. 230-245, 368-380);

George of Nicomedia in his homilies
(PG 100, 1336-1504), especially _Conceptione deiparae_ and
_Praesentatione Mariae virginis_;

Michael Psellos in the
recently discovered and edited homily _De Annuntiatione_ (PO
16, pp. 517-525);

John Phurnensis, _Oratione de Dormitione_
(G. Palamas, _Theophanous tou kerameos homiliai_, [Jerusalem,
1860], append., pp. 271-276);

Michael Glykas, _Annales_, III
(PG 158, 439-442);

Germanus II, Patriarch of Constantinople,
_In annuntiationem_ (edit. Ballerini, op. cit., Vol. II, pp.
283-382);

Theognostos the Monk, _In dormitionem_ (PO 16, pp.
457-562);

Nicetas David, _In nativitatem B.M.V._ (PG 105,
16-28);

Leo the Wise, _In dormitionem_ and _In
praesentationeum_ (PG 107, 12-21);

Patriarch Euthymius of
Constantinople, _In Conceptionem Annae_ (PO 16, pp. 499-505);

Bishop Peter Argorum, _In conceptionem B. Annae_(PG 104,
1352-1365);

John Mauropos, _In dormitionem_ (PG 120,
1075-1114);

James the Monk, _In nativitatem et in
praesentationem B.M.V._ (PO 16, pp. 528-538). Cf. Jugie,
_L'immaculee Conception dans l'Ecriture Sainte et dans la
tradition orientale [Rome, 1952], pp. 164-307, for others.

[Irish Hermit]

Here are some of the interpolated texts which are now found in Eastern Catholic Great Vespers for the Conception of St. Anne. And NOT found in the original texts.  This really is a gross latinisation.   You will find these texts only on Eastern Catholic websites (for example: http://stirenaeus.net/vespers_texts/99991209/99991209pdf.pdf


]It is fitting that the Queen of heaven and earth,
who is more precious than the Cherubim,
and incomparably more glorious than the Seraphim,
be conceived and remain immaculate as the angels,
so that they who are servants of the Lord
can boast of their own Queen, the Mother of God.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

It is fitting that the unique and chosen woman
be conceived without sin,
and the power of Satan is now taken away;
for the Mother of God will never bow before him.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

It is fitting that the Second Eve
be created and remain without sin
in the manner of the Second Adam;
for the rebirth of mankind now takes place,
just as the fall came through the first Adam and the first Eve.
Christ has renewed all through his new birth,
and it was Mary that gave birth to Him.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

Glory… Now…

Before the nativity of the Son of God,
it was fitting for the Father
to bestow the most pure conception upon the Mother of God,
who is betrothed of the Holy Spirit,
that she might be filled with heavenly gifts
in a manner beyond all other creatures.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

This is a really crass way to treat Eastern Catholics.  Most will assume that these are the ancient texts of the Eastern Church.  They will be unaware that they are being manipulated to accept a Latin doctrine which is alien to their Tradition.

[Irish Hermit]

/\  A comment in the above from a Byzantine Catholic site:-

"Eastern Catholic Churches tend to do what they want with liturgical texts. They are not supposed to. Pius X made it clear with his statement:  "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" (no additions, no subtractions, no alterations).

"The Liturgical Instruction renews this directive: "In every effort of liturgical renewal, therefore, the practice of the Orthodox brethren should be taken into account, knowing it, respecting it and distancing from it as little as possible so as not to increase the existing separation, but rather intensifying efforts in view of eventual adaptations, maturing and working together. Thus will be manifested the unity that already subsists in daily receiving the same spiritual nourishment from practicing the same common heritage." (Section 21)

"Having said that, it is true that some of the Greek Catholic books contain texts supporting the Immaculate Conception. I am not a Slavonic expert but one who is tells me that the texts are poorly written (at least in the Ruthenian books). It is clear that they are a latinization (a purposeful attempt to provide support for the Latin theology). IMHO the liturgical books should be restored with the texts in use previously, or with those texts currently in use across the rest of the Byzantine Churches."

[LBK]

I have examined the Vigil texts from the Russian, Greek and Antiochian traditions for the Orthodox feast of the Conception of the Mother of God. None contain any Litia hymnody. The Typikon of Jerusalem/St Sabbas, likewise does not appoint a Litia to be sung. Here are the rubrics from this typikon for the Vespers of this feast in Slavonic. I have bolded the various parts of the service, with accompanying translation:

(:. Зачатие святыя Aнны, егда зачат Пресвятую Bогородицу.

Вечер, обычная кафисма. На Господи воззвах (At "Lord, I have cried"), стихиры на 6: глас 4. Подобен: Званный свыше: Слава, и ныне, глас 2: Недоведомое ангелом и человеком: На стиховне стихиры, (at the Apostikha) глас 5: Подобен: Радуйся: Припев 1-й, Клятся Господь давиду: 2-й, плода чрева твоего: Слава, и ныне, глас 2: Днесь из корене давидова: Тропарь (festal troparion), глас 4: Днесь безчадия узы разрешаются, иоакима бо и анну услышав бог, паче надежды родити тем яве обещавает богоотроковицу, из неяже сам родися неописанный, человек быв, ангелом повелев вопити ей: радуйся, благодатная, Господь с тобою.

If a Litia is to be sung at a given feast, then the rubric would read thus: На литии: стихиры самогласны, глас ... (At the Litia: idiomel stikhera in tone ....)

As can be seen, there is no such instruction for the December 9 feast, as this feast is of lesser rank, without a Litia, and without blessing of bread appointed.

By contrast, what do we see in the Byzantine Catholic vespers provided by Irish Hermit? A Litia appointed, with hymnography written to reflect the RC dogma of the IC, hymnography which does not exist in the Orthodox liturgical deposit. Why insert a Litia? Because the Byzantine Catholics have, in submission to the RC church, elevated the feast to a higher rank than the Orthodox, in keeping with the dogmatic importance the RCC gives to this feast.

Just because hymnography might resemble Orthodox practice, doesn't necessarily mean it is truly Orthodox. We, laity and clergy alike, must be ever-vigilant against doctrinal and theological distortions creeping into Orthodox litugical and iconographic practice.

[elijahmaria]

Apparently, after watching this thread unfold for a while, I cannot see that Orthodoxy has ANY teaching that matches her hymnography for ANY of her Marian feasts.

If the real difficulty, in describing the purity of her soul,  is that the Theotokos needed to be redeemed then that redemption would not have been complete until Christ completed his Pasch at the moment of the Ascension.  And since it is clear from the teachings offered here that the Pasch is a whole and cannot be divided into parts, then there is NO time prior to the Ascension that the Virgin could be extolled as "immaculate" or "most pure" or any other reference to the purity of her soul until those Marian feasts that occur AFTER the Ascension.

So none of the pre-Ascension Marian hymnography is justified and I am still convinced that those parts of Orthodox liturgy need to be expunged to fit with modern Orthodox teaching concerning the Theotokos.

M.

[Papist]

This Image not kosher... the Holy Icon Kosher....Whats with the catholics and nudity in there religios art...

You are joking right?

[Papist]

Here are some of the interpolated texts which are now found in Eastern Catholic Great Vespers for the Conception of St. Anne. And NOT found in the original texts.  This really is a gross latinisation.   You will find these texts only on Eastern Catholic websites (for example: http://stirenaeus.net/vespers_texts/99991209/99991209pdf.pdf


]It is fitting that the Queen of heaven and earth,
who is more precious than the Cherubim,
and incomparably more glorious than the Seraphim,
be conceived and remain immaculate as the angels,
so that they who are servants of the Lord
can boast of their own Queen, the Mother of God.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

It is fitting that the unique and chosen woman
be conceived without sin,
and the power of Satan is now taken away;
for the Mother of God will never bow before him.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

It is fitting that the Second Eve
be created and remain without sin
in the manner of the Second Adam;
for the rebirth of mankind now takes place,
just as the fall came through the first Adam and the first Eve.
Christ has renewed all through his new birth,
and it was Mary that gave birth to Him.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

Glory… Now…

Before the nativity of the Son of God,
it was fitting for the Father
to bestow the most pure conception upon the Mother of God,
who is betrothed of the Holy Spirit,
that she might be filled with heavenly gifts
in a manner beyond all other creatures.
Glory and praise to the Lord who willed it so,
the Creator of all things.

This is a really crass way to treat Eastern Catholics.  Most will assume that these are the ancient texts of the Eastern Church.  They will be unaware that they are being manipulated to accept a Latin doctrine which is alien to their Tradition.

Father Ambrose,
Thank you for sharing these beautiful texts with us.

[elijahmaria]

Bump

Can someone explain to me how the Theotokos can be divinized at the time of the Annunciation without an act of anticipatory grace?

Apparently, after watching this thread unfold for a while, I cannot see that Orthodoxy has ANY teaching that matches her hymnography for ANY of her Marian feasts.

If the real difficulty, in describing the purity of her soul,  is that the Theotokos needed to be redeemed then that redemption would not have been complete until Christ completed his Pasch at the moment of the Ascension.  And since it is clear from the teachings offered here that the Pasch is a whole and cannot be divided into parts, then there is NO time prior to the Ascension that the Virgin could be extolled as "immaculate" or "most pure" or any other reference to the purity of her soul until those Marian feasts that occur AFTER the Ascension.

So none of the pre-Ascension Marian hymnography is justified and I am still convinced that those parts of Orthodox liturgy need to be expunged to fit with modern Orthodox teaching concerning the Theotokos.

M.

[FatherGiryus]

Bump

Can someone explain to me how the Theotokos can be divinized at the time of the Annunciation without an act of anticipatory grace?

Apparently, after watching this thread unfold for a while, I cannot see that Orthodoxy has ANY teaching that matches her hymnography for ANY of her Marian feasts.

If the real difficulty, in describing the purity of her soul,  is that the Theotokos needed to be redeemed then that redemption would not have been complete until Christ completed his Pasch at the moment of the Ascension.  And since it is clear from the teachings offered here that the Pasch is a whole and cannot be divided into parts, then there is NO time prior to the Ascension that the Virgin could be extolled as "immaculate" or "most pure" or any other reference to the purity of her soul until those Marian feasts that occur AFTER the Ascension.

So none of the pre-Ascension Marian hymnography is justified and I am still convinced that those parts of Orthodox liturgy need to be expunged to fit with modern Orthodox teaching concerning the Theotokos.

M.

Since I have never really heard of 'anticipatory grace' outside of this thread, I can't answer you.

I can say God can do whatever He wants, regardless of human explanation.

[Cosmos]

Can someone explain to me how the Theotokos can be divinized at the time of the Annunciation without an act of anticipatory grace?

Divinized? 

Cosmos

[elijahmaria]

Can someone explain to me how the Theotokos can be divinized at the time of the Annunciation without an act of anticipatory grace?

Divinized? 

Cosmos

Hey!!  Not my game. 

I've been told by Orthodox monks, clergy and faithful that the Theotokos achieved theosis at the time of the Annunciation...Not that theosis is a one shot deal...but...apparently the idea is "out there" that the Theotokos was wholly purified and wholly filled with the Holy Spirit at her Annunciation. 

What do you call being wholly purified and wholly filled with the Holy Spirit?

M.

[FatherGiryus]

Hey!!  Not my game. 

I've been told by Orthodox monks, clergy and faithful that the Theotokos achieved theosis at the time of the Annunciation...Not that theosis is a one shot deal...but...apparently the idea is "out there" that the Theotokos was wholly purified and wholly filled with the Holy Spirit at her Annunciation. 

What do you call being wholly purified and wholly filled with the Holy Spirit?

M.

Dear Mary,

Not to be snippy, but the first thing that jumps out is that if I judged Roman Catholicism by what I've been told about it by Roman Catholic monastics, clergy and faithful, you would have a fit!   

Honestly, Mary, what people say and what are official teachings are can be very different, would you not agree?

Truthfully, in seminary it was taught as a Mystery.  Period.

In which case, you can't say "wholly purified and wholly filled with the Holy Spirit" because then it would not be a Mystery anymore.

[elijahmaria]

Hey!!  Not my game. 

I've been told by Orthodox monks, clergy and faithful that the Theotokos achieved theosis at the time of the Annunciation...Not that theosis is a one shot deal...but...apparently the idea is "out there" that the Theotokos was wholly purified and wholly filled with the Holy Spirit at her Annunciation. 

What do you call being wholly purified and wholly filled with the Holy Spirit?

M.

Dear Mary,

Not to be snippy, but the first thing that jumps out is that if I judged Roman Catholicism by what I've been told about it by Roman Catholic monastics, clergy and faithful, you would have a fit!   

Honestly, Mary, what people say and what are official teachings are can be very different, would you not agree?

Truthfully, in seminary it was taught as a Mystery.  Period.

In which case, you can't say "wholly purified and wholly filled with the Holy Spirit" because then it would not be a Mystery anymore.

I have been seriously considering giving up "Trinity" and "Incarnation" on the same grounds!! 

By the same token, how does anyone know what Orthodoxy teaches?

I've been hanging around long enough to know that seminaries do not all teach precisely the same thing.

I've been hanging around long enough to have five books here that are used as catechetical materials for catechumen and they do not all teach the same thing.

Etc.

So ...help me out here.  How do I know what Orthodoxy teaches?

M.

[FatherGiryus]

I have been seriously considering giving up "Trinity" and "Incarnation" on the same grounds!! 

By the same token, how does anyone know what Orthodoxy teaches?

I've been hanging around long enough to know that seminaries do not all teach precisely the same thing.

I've been hanging around long enough to have five books here that are used as catechetical materials for catechumen and they do not all teach the same thing.

Etc.

So ...help me out here.  How do I know what Orthodoxy teaches?

M.

Dear Mary,

There is a short answer and a long one.

The short one will surely offend you, so I won't dare repeat it because it will not help.

The long one is this: Orthodoxy is not merely a set of precepts that one acquieces to in order to become a Christian.  Rather, the Orthodox Faith is an experience.  I have given up on catechism materials as being 'complete' or 'correct' because, frankly none of them can compare to the experience of it itself.

Much of what we deal with is Mystery, and so Orthodoxy tends to be apophatic as well as kataphatic.  You are looking for the latter, but so much of Orthodoxy tends to really be in the former.  Remember, you are dealing with a pre-Modernist tradition which shuns much of the absolutist rhetoric that has come to characterize later theological trends.  Roman Catholicism itself has much more of that precision of terminology which Orthodoxy has never really gotten into mostly because it can give in some circumstances a false sense of understanding where things are really beyond human rational examination.

In the end, we are left with fewer answers than questions, and less pride in our intellect than a painful realization that the human intellect is a stumbling block to spiritual development when it is used solely on its own.  We are also left constantly asking, which is precisely what God wants us doing.  Once the definition is made, the search is over.  The journey ends.

Some journeys do indeed need to end, but others need to go on.  The Mother of God, the Theotokos, is one of those journeys that must go on, because to define her is to presume one can grasp the Incarnation.  I think we can all agree that such a thing is not possible, though we may try.

So, we are left with a Mystery, and a great and glorious one indeed!

[PeterTheAleut]

This Image not kosher... the Holy Icon Kosher....Whats with the catholics and nudity in there religios art...

What?  You never seen a naked baby before?  That's how they're born.

[elijahmaria]

Fortunately, from my perspective only, the Catholic Church does not teach or in any way encourage the idea that once the definition is in, the journey is over. 

In fact the definitions are understood to only be a small portion of the journey itself...sometimes limiting speculation, or redirecting the path of the journey, or to correct the map in some other way...but to end the journey?  Never in all of my faith journey has a Catholic truth stopped me from living the faith fully and with great joy.

M.

I have been seriously considering giving up "Trinity" and "Incarnation" on the same grounds!! 

By the same token, how does anyone know what Orthodoxy teaches?

I've been hanging around long enough to know that seminaries do not all teach precisely the same thing.

I've been hanging around long enough to have five books here that are used as catechetical materials for catechumen and they do not all teach the same thing.

Etc.

So ...help me out here.  How do I know what Orthodoxy teaches?

M.

Dear Mary,

There is a short answer and a long one.

The short one will surely offend you, so I won't dare repeat it because it will not help.

The long one is this: Orthodoxy is not merely a set of precepts that one acquieces to in order to become a Christian.  Rather, the Orthodox Faith is an experience.  I have given up on catechism materials as being 'complete' or 'correct' because, frankly none of them can compare to the experience of it itself.

Much of what we deal with is Mystery, and so Orthodoxy tends to be apophatic as well as kataphatic.  You are looking for the latter, but so much of Orthodoxy tends to really be in the former.  Remember, you are dealing with a pre-Modernist tradition which shuns much of the absolutist rhetoric that has come to characterize later theological trends.  Roman Catholicism itself has much more of that precision of terminology which Orthodoxy has never really gotten into mostly because it can give in some circumstances a false sense of understanding where things are really beyond human rational examination.

In the end, we are left with fewer answers than questions, and less pride in our intellect than a painful realization that the human intellect is a stumbling block to spiritual development when it is used solely on its own.  We are also left constantly asking, which is precisely what God wants us doing.  Once the definition is made, the search is over.  The journey ends.

Some journeys do indeed need to end, but others need to go on.  The Mother of God, the Theotokos, is one of those journeys that must go on, because to define her is to presume one can grasp the Incarnation.  I think we can all agree that such a thing is not possible, though we may try.

So, we are left with a Mystery, and a great and glorious one indeed!

[FatherGiryus]

Okey-dokey.   

Fortunately, from my perspective only, the Catholic Church does not teach or in any way encourage the idea that once the definition is in, the journey is over. 

In fact the definitions are understood to only be a small portion of the journey itself...sometimes limiting speculation, or redirecting the path of the journey, or to correct the map in some other way...but to end the journey?  Never in all of my faith journey has a Catholic truth stopped me from living the faith fully and with great joy.

M.

[elijahmaria]

Again, I ask:

Given the apparent impossibility of saying anything about any exceptional purity of the Theotokos prior to completion of the Pasch at the Ascension, how does Orthodoxy explain those bloated liturgical texts on Marian feasts?

Apparently, after watching this thread unfold for a while, I cannot see that Orthodoxy has ANY teaching that matches her hymnography for ANY of her Marian feasts.

If the real difficulty, in describing the purity of her soul,  is that the Theotokos needed to be redeemed then that redemption would not have been complete until Christ completed his Pasch at the moment of the Ascension.  And since it is clear from the teachings offered here that the Pasch is a whole and cannot be divided into parts, then there is NO time prior to the Ascension that the Virgin could be extolled as "immaculate" or "most pure" or any other reference to the purity of her soul until those Marian feasts that occur AFTER the Ascension.

So none of the pre-Ascension Marian hymnography is justified and I am still convinced that those parts of Orthodox liturgy need to be expunged to fit with modern Orthodox teaching concerning the Theotokos.

M.

[LBK]

elijahmaria, you wrote:

By the same token, how does anyone know what Orthodoxy teaches?

I've been hanging around long enough to know that seminaries do not all teach precisely the same thing.

Why do I get the impression that my posting the hymnography of this (or any) Orthodox feast has been a waste of time? How many times, on this and other threads on this forum, have, and others, stated lex orandi, lex credendi? Why do you (plural) fight so hard to ignore or deny this?

And, in the case of the Conception of the Virgin, I have clearly exposed the additions made by the Eastern Catholics in the form of the Litia, written to support the IC, which has never being part of Orthodox tradition. Contrary to all that the apologists for the IC have tried to assert about the prior existence of the IC as Orthodox doctrine, it has been shown beyond question from the liturgical and historical evidence that this is not true. It is the ECs who have made additions to this feast (contrary to the papal directive of nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter) to conform with RC doctrine, not the Orthodox having subtracted the IC from its teaching.

So ...help me out here.  How do I know what Orthodoxy teaches?

If you're sincere in your request, spend a year attending as many Orthodox (not EC) liturgical services as you can and are offered, keeping your ears open to absorb what is read, said and sung, and your eyes open to absorb what is depicted in the iconography. The core and distillation of what the Orthodox Church teaches is found in her hymnography and iconography.

[elijahmaria]

elijahmaria, you wrote:

By the same token, how does anyone know what Orthodoxy teaches?

I've been hanging around long enough to know that seminaries do not all teach precisely the same thing.

Why do I get the impression that my posting the hymnography of this (or any) Orthodox feast has been a waste of time? How many times, on this and other threads on this forum, have, and others, stated lex orandi, lex credendi? Why do you (plural) fight so hard to ignore or deny this?

And, in the case of the Conception of the Virgin, I have clearly exposed the additions made by the Eastern Catholics in the form of the Litia, written to support the IC, which has never being part of Orthodox tradition. Contrary to all that the apologists for the IC have tried to assert about the prior existence of the IC as Orthodox doctrine, it has been shown beyond question from the liturgical and historical evidence that this is not true. It is the ECs who have made additions to this feast (contrary to the papal directive of nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter) to conform with RC doctrine, not the Orthodox having subtracted the IC from its teaching.

So ...help me out here.  How do I know what Orthodoxy teaches?

If you're sincere in your request, spend a year attending as many Orthodox (not EC) liturgical services as you can and are offered, keeping your ears open to absorb what is read, said and sung, and your eyes open to absorb what is depicted in the iconography. The core and distillation of what the Orthodox Church teaches is found in her hymnography and iconography.

I have actually done the latter.  In fact I my liturgical life is pretty much spent within Orthodox liturgies.

And you have exposed nothing about eastern Catholic liturgies.  There's been no effort made to hide the fact that there are festal hymns celebrating the Immaculate Conception.

Can you answer my question about the bloated hymns of Marian feasts in Orthodoxy since apparently it is impossible to say if she ever really was purified in life and certainly she was not redeemed till the completion of the Pasch. 

So all of those pre-Pasch liturgies are gross exaggerations of her spiritual purity...and not ALL of the references are to her virginity.

I posted hymns from the feast of her entrance into the Temple and they are just absurdly inflated.

Why are these texts not removed in the spirit of lex orandi, lex credendi?  I wonder and have wondered for years....

Mary

[LBK]

Bloated? Oh, dear, there's no need for that, elijahmaria.

Here's a start:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body: it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely adorned Tabernacle, a living Sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life. (from Ode 7, Matins of the Annunciation)

And you have exposed nothing about eastern Catholic liturgies.  There's been no effort made to hide the fact that there are festal hymns celebrating the Immaculate Conception.

There has been a concerted effort to assert that the additions and alterations to the EC services "prove" that the Orthodox once taught the IC. I have proved that this is a false assertion. I have proved that the EC have added hymnography to their own services which conforms to RC, not Orthodox, doctrine and theology. Big difference.

Why are these texts not removed in the spirit of lex orandi, lex credendi?  I wonder and have wondered for years....

Why should the Orthodox modify their established hymnography to accommodate novel and erroneous teachings which were never part of her tradition, and neither should be?

[elijahmaria]

Bloated? Oh, dear, there's no need for that, elijahmaria.

Here's a start:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body: it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely adorned Tabernacle, a living Sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life. (from Ode 7, Matins of the Annunciation)

And you have exposed nothing about eastern Catholic liturgies.  There's been no effort made to hide the fact that there are festal hymns celebrating the Immaculate Conception.

There has been a concerted effort to assert that the additions and alterations to the EC services "prove" that the Orthodox once taught the IC. I have proved that this is a false assertion. I have proved that the EC have added hymnography to their own services which conforms to RC, not Orthodox, doctrine and theology. Big difference.

Why are these texts not removed in the spirit of lex orandi, lex credendi?  I wonder and have wondered for years....

Why should the Orthodox modify their established hymnography to accommodate novel and erroneous teachings which were never part of her tradition, and neither should be?

I have made no such effort. 

And I still don't have an explanation from you, if as has just been stated here, Orthodoxy has no way of knowing if or when the Theotokos was ever purified spiritually in her life,  and that her redemption cannot possibly occur before the completion of the Pasch,  about how one can really have all those grandly or absurdly exaggerated hymns concerning her spiritual purity in the liturgies?

How can that be if one does not know?

When was the Theotokos redeemed?

Does Orthodoxy teach that the Theotokos was ever filled with the Holy Spirit in her life?

M.

[elijahmaria]

Is the Feast of the Conception of St. Anne one of the Seven Great Marian Feasts?

[elijahmaria]

Bloated? Oh, dear, there's no need for that, elijahmaria.

Here's a start:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body: it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely adorned Tabernacle, a living Sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life. (from Ode 7, Matins of the Annunciation)

Two Orthodox priests just today in this thread have indicated that the Theotokos was not divinized at the time of the Annunciation.   And yet here you have a hymn claiming that her soul is purified and her body sanctified.

Can you tell me what constitutes theosis, please?

M.

[Melodist]

I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days and have been asking questions like:

How were Adam and Eve before the fall? Afterward?

What exactly do we inherit from them?

What happens at batism that makes a person different than before?

What is the difference between St John's baptism and the Church's baptism?

Why did circumcised jews who already had the sign of God's covenant have to be baptised into the new covenant?

What was the sign of the covenant for women in the OT?

What happened on the day of Pentecost?

Anyway, as far as I can tell, it all has to do with being united and in communion with God by being joined to Christ and having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As far as I can tell, this would have been accomplished for the Theotokos at the Annunciation when she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and was, at the instant of (Christ's) conception, fully and completely united with Him who is God in the flesh (which at that point in time was also her flesh).

Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding anything about Original Sin, Baptism, or how they would apply to a person being free from Original Sin.

[elijahmaria]

Dear Melodist,

You might want to factor the following into your thinking.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.monachos.net/content/patristics/patristictexts/668

Gregory Palamas, Discourse on the feast of the Entry of the More Pure Lady Theotokos into the Holy of Holies


...Turn your attention then, to where this choice began. From the sons of Adam God chose the wondrous Seth, who showed himself a living heaven through his becoming behavior, and through the beauty of his virtues. That is why he was chosen, and from whom the Virgin would blossom as the divinely fitting chariot of God. She was needed to give birth and to summon the earth-born to heavenly sonship. For this reason also all the lineage of Seth were called 'sons of God' (cf. Gen. 6), because from this lineage a son of man would be born as the Son of God. The name Seth signifies a rising or resurrection, or more specifically, it signifies the Lord, Who promises and gives immortal life to all who believe in Him.

And how precisely exact is this parallel! Seth was born of Eve, as she herself said, in place of Abel, whom Cain killed through jealousy (cf. Gen. 4.25); and Christ, the Son of the Virgin, was born for us in place of Adam, whom the author of evil also killed through jealousy. But Seth did not resurrect Abel, since he was only a type of the resurrection. But our Lord Jesus Christ resurrected Adam, since He is the very Life and the Resurrection of the earth-born, for whose sake the descendents of Seth are granted divine adoption through hope, and are called the children of God. It was because of this hope that they were called sons of God, as is evident from the one who was first called so, the successor in the choice. This was Enoch, the son of Seth, who as Moses wrote, first hoped to call on the Name of the Lord (cf. Gen. 4.26).

In this manner, the choice of the future Mother of God, beginning with the very sons of Adam and proceeding through all the generations of time, through the Providence of God, passes to the Prophet-King David and the successors of his kingdom and lineage. When the chosen time had come, then from the house and posterity of David, Joachim and Anna are chosen by God.1 Though they were childless, they were by their virtuous life and good disposition the finest of all those descended from the line of David. And when in prayer they besought God to deliver them from their childlessness, and promised to dedicate their child to God from its infancy (cf. Protoevangelion 1-4), by God Himself, the Mother of God was proclaimed and given to them as a child, so that from such virtuous parents the all-virtuous child would be raised. So in this manner, chastity joined with prayer came to fruition by producing the Mother of virginity, giving birth in the flesh to Him Who was born of God the Father before the ages.

Now, when Righteous Joachim and Anna saw that they had been granted their wish, and that the divine promise to them was realized in fact, then they on their part, as true lovers of God, hastened to fulfill their vow given to God as soon as the child had been weaned from milk (cf. Protoevangelion 6, 7).2 They have now led this truly sanctified child of God, now the Mother of God, this Virgin, into the Temple of God. And She, being filled with Divine gifts even at such a tender age, [...] She, rather than others, determined what was being done over Her. In Her manner She showed that She was not so much presented into the Temple, but that She Herself entered into the service of God of her own accord, as if she had wings, striving towards this sacred and divine love (cf. Protoevangelion 7). She considered it desirable and fitting that she should enter into the Temple and dwell in the Holy of Holies.

Therefore, the High Priest, seeing that this child, more than anyone else, had divine grace within Her, wished to set Her within the Holy of Holies. He convinced everyone present to welcome this, since God had advanced it and approved it. Through His angel, God assisted the Virgin and sent Her mystical food, with which She was strengthened in nature, while in body She was brought to maturity and was made purer and more exalted than the angels, having the Heavenly spirits as servants. She was led into the Holy of Holies not just once, but was accepted by God to dwell there with Him during Her youth, so that through Her, the Heavenly Abodes might be opened and given for an eternal habitation to those who believe in Her miraculous birthgiving (cf. Protoevangelion 7).

So it is, and this is why She, from the beginning of time, was chosen from among the chosen. She Who is manifest as the Holy of Holies, Who has a body even purer than the spirits purified by virtue, is capable of receiving [...] the Hypostatic Word of the Unoriginate Father. Today the Ever-Virgin Mary, like a Treasure of God, is stored in the Holy of Holies, so that in due time (as it later came to pass), She would serve for the enrichment of, and an ornament for, all the world. Therefore, Christ God also glorifies His Mother, both before, and also after His birth.

We who understand the salvation begun for our sake through the Most Holy Virgin, give Her thanks and praise according to our ability. And truly, if the grateful woman (of whom the Gospel tells us), after hearing the saving words of the Lord, blessed and thanked His Mother, raising her voice above the din of the crowd and saying to Christ, Blessed is the womb that bore Thee, and the paps Thou hast sucked (Luke 11.27), then we who have the words of eternal life written out for us, and not only the words, but also the miracles and the Passion, and the raising of our nature from death, and its ascent from earth to Heaven, and the promise of immortal life and unfailing salvation, then how shall we not unceasingly hymn and bless the Mother of the Author of our Salvation and the Giver of Life, celebrating Her conception and birth, and now Her Entry into the Holy of Holies?

Now, brethren, let us remove ourselves from earthly to celestial things. Let us change our path from the flesh to the spirit. Let us change our desire from temporal things to those that endure. Let us scorn fleshly delights, which serve as allurements for the soul and soon pass away. Let us desire spiritual gifts, which remain undiminished. Let us turn our reason and our attention from earthly concerns and raise them to the inaccessible places of Heaven, to the Holy of Holies, where the Mother of God now resides.

Therefore, in such manner our songs and prayers to Her will gain entry, and thus through her mediation, we shall be heirs of the everlasting blessings to come, through the grace and love for mankind of Him Who was born of Her for our sake, our Lord Jesus Christ, to Whom be glory, honor and worship, together with His Unoriginate Father and His Coeternal and Life-Creating Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen...

[Irish Hermit]

Can someone explain to me how the Theotokos can be divinized at the time of the Annunciation without an act of anticipatory grace?

Divinized? 

Cosmos

Hey!!  Not my game. 

I've been told by Orthodox monks, clergy and faithful that the Theotokos achieved theosis at the time of the Annunciation...

You'd better get out there and find a better class of Orthodox monks and clergy and faithful.  These ones are misleading you.    The Mother of God is, like the rest of us, on the never-ending journey of theosis.  The fact that the Holy Spirit came upon her to accomplish the incarnation in her womb did not achieve what Catholics have called, quite erroneously,  "The Final Theosis"!!

[elijahmaria]

As I said before Father I'll follow my own Church in this matter.  There are too many different classes on the same subject for me to follow Orthodoxy on this one.

M.

Can someone explain to me how the Theotokos can be divinized at the time of the Annunciation without an act of anticipatory grace?

Divinized? 

Cosmos

Hey!!  Not my game. 

I've been told by Orthodox monks, clergy and faithful that the Theotokos achieved theosis at the time of the Annunciation...

You'd better get out there and find a better class of Orthodox monks and clergy and faithful.  These ones are misleading you.    The Mother of God is, like the rest of us, on the never-ending journey of theosis.  The fact that the Holy Spirit came upon her to accomplish the incarnation in her womb did not achieve what Catholics have called, quite erroneously,  "The Final Theosis"!!

[Irish Hermit]

Is the Feast of the Conception of St. Anne one of the Seven Great Marian Feasts?

I confess I do not know what the Seven Great Marian Feasts are but no, the Feast of the Conception of Saint Anne has the rank of a simple feast as for any minor Saint.

Do you know the system of squiggly marks which are used in liturgical books to indicate the rank of Feasts?  It lets the priest and the choir know, at one glance, the rank and how much of the service will be sung, the mixture of the number of variable stichera at various places (some for the day and some for the Saint or Feast),  what parts will be added in or omitted..... It's a clever little visual system.

The Feast of the Conception has the very low ranking symbol of an open circle with three dots in red.  Looks like this  

[elijahmaria]

Is the Feast of the Conception of St. Anne one of the Seven Great Marian Feasts?

I confess I do not know what the Seven Great Marian Feasts are but no, the Feast of the Conception of Saint Anne has the rank of a simple feast as for any minor Saint.

Do you know the system of squiggly marks which are used in liturgical books to indicate the rank of Feasts?  It lets the priest and the choir know, at one glance, the rank and how much of the service will be sung, the mixture of the number of variable stichera at various places (some for the day and some for the Saint or Feast),  what parts will be added in or omitted..... It's a clever little visual system.

The Feast of the Conception has the very low ranking symbol of an open circle with three dots in red.  Looks like this  

That's quite correct.  So it is in the Marian Feasts themselves, the Presentation of the Theotokos, in particular where the exalted language of the Virgin Mother's exceptional purity of soul is to be found.

M.

[Irish Hermit]

As I said before Father I'll follow my own Church in this matter.  

I take it that your Church's teaching is that the Mother of God reached the end of her theosis at the time of her conception. And according to Byzantine Catholic teaching (see Prof. Anthony Dragani) all other humans attain this Final Theosis when they emerge from Purgatory.  

Would this also be the time when the "hypostatic union" comes into existence for individuals?  One cannot imagine how Christ could be hypostatically united with a human being before that since it would mean He would be partaking of human sin.

[Irish Hermit]

Is the Feast of the Conception of St. Anne one of the Seven Great Marian Feasts?

I confess I do not know what the Seven Great Marian Feasts are but no, the Feast of the Conception of Saint Anne has the rank of a simple feast as for any minor Saint.

Do you know the system of squiggly marks which are used in liturgical books to indicate the rank of Feasts?  It lets the priest and the choir know, at one glance, the rank and how much of the service will be sung, the mixture of the number of variable stichera at various places (some for the day and some for the Saint or Feast),  what parts will be added in or omitted..... It's a clever little visual system.

The Feast of the Conception has the very low ranking symbol of an open circle with three dots in red.  Looks like this 

That's quite correct.  So it is in the Marian Feasts themselves, the Presentation of the Theotokos, in particular where the exalted language of the Virgin Mother's exceptional purity of soul is to be found.

M.

Are the Seven Great Marian Feasts a list of the Ruthenian Church?  Do you know what they are?

[Irish Hermit]

Is the Feast of the Conception of St. Anne one of the Seven Great Marian Feasts?

I confess I do not know what the Seven Great Marian Feasts are but no, the Feast of the Conception of Saint Anne has the rank of a simple feast as for any minor Saint.

Do you know the system of squiggly marks which are used in liturgical books to indicate the rank of Feasts?  It lets the priest and the choir know, at one glance, the rank and how much of the service will be sung, the mixture of the number of variable stichera at various places (some for the day and some for the Saint or Feast),  what parts will be added in or omitted..... It's a clever little visual system.

The Feast of the Conception has the very low ranking symbol of an open circle with three dots in red.  Looks like this 

That's quite correct.  So it is in the Marian Feasts themselves, the Presentation of the Theotokos, in particular where the exalted language of the Virgin Mother's exceptional purity of soul is to be found.

M.

The Entrance of the Mother of God into the temple is a   It is one of the great feasts of the year.

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