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Author Topic: A question on the Immaculate Conception  (Read 98670 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #630 on: May 11, 2010, 02:12:24 PM »

The Orthodox teaching that the Theotokos is the Bride...

Unwedded bride.

Exactly Mickey!  Mary and Joseph were never married!  They were betrothed to each other!  In Jesus time there were two separate and distinct Jewish ceremonies....the betrothal & the marriage.  We within Orthodoxy still have those separate ceremonies but we usually combine them on the same day.  The betrothal takes place in the back of the church where the vows and the exchange of rings takes place.  This is where the couple promise to live and take care of each other.  The marriage ceremony (Crowning) takes place in front of the Iconostatsis where a blessing is given to a sexual union.  That is why St Joseph is known as St Joseph 'the betrothed' and St Mary remained ever virgin and most pure.

What I find in the Akathist:

"Rejoice, bridal room of ungamic union; rejoice, who unite believers to the Lord as Groom.  Rejoice, O beautiful nursemaid of virgins; rejoice, bridesmaid of souls that are holy, Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!"

That was the only marriage-type language I could find in my admittedly brief scanning of the Akathist Stanzas.

But is not this language of Bride and Groom referring to the Mother of God and Christ respectively?

Mary
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« Reply #631 on: May 11, 2010, 02:21:45 PM »

The Orthodox teaching that the Theotokos is the Bride...

Unwedded bride.

Exactly Mickey!  Mary and Joseph were never married!  They were betrothed to each other!  In Jesus time there were two separate and distinct Jewish ceremonies....the betrothal & the marriage.  We within Orthodoxy still have those separate ceremonies but we usually combine them on the same day.  The betrothal takes place in the back of the church where the vows and the exchange of rings takes place.  This is where the couple promise to live and take care of each other.  The marriage ceremony (Crowning) takes place in front of the Iconostatsis where a blessing is given to a sexual union.  That is why St Joseph is known as St Joseph 'the betrothed' and St Mary remained ever virgin and most pure.

What I find in the Akathist:

"Rejoice, bridal room of ungamic union; rejoice, who unite believers to the Lord as Groom.  Rejoice, O beautiful nursemaid of virgins; rejoice, bridesmaid of souls that are holy, Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!"

That was the only marriage-type language I could find in my admittedly brief scanning of the Akathist Stanzas.

But is not this language of Bride and Groom referring to the Mother of God and Christ respectively?

Mary

FWIW, I have seen 'Unwedded Bride' for the Virgin Mary, and 'Bride' for the Church, and never the reverse.
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« Reply #632 on: May 11, 2010, 02:43:52 PM »

The Orthodox teaching that the Theotokos is the Bride...

Unwedded bride.

Exactly Mickey!  Mary and Joseph were never married!  They were betrothed to each other!  In Jesus time there were two separate and distinct Jewish ceremonies....the betrothal & the marriage.  We within Orthodoxy still have those separate ceremonies but we usually combine them on the same day.  The betrothal takes place in the back of the church where the vows and the exchange of rings takes place.  This is where the couple promise to live and take care of each other.  The marriage ceremony (Crowning) takes place in front of the Iconostatsis where a blessing is given to a sexual union.  That is why St Joseph is known as St Joseph 'the betrothed' and St Mary remained ever virgin and most pure.

What I find in the Akathist:

"Rejoice, bridal room of ungamic union; rejoice, who unite believers to the Lord as Groom.  Rejoice, O beautiful nursemaid of virgins; rejoice, bridesmaid of souls that are holy, Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!"

That was the only marriage-type language I could find in my admittedly brief scanning of the Akathist Stanzas.

But is not this language of Bride and Groom referring to the Mother of God and Christ respectively?

Mary

FWIW, I have seen 'Unwedded Bride' for the Virgin Mary, and 'Bride' for the Church, and never the reverse.

Actually I've introduced a confusion in this and didn't want to step in and "fix" it till we got through some other things.

The Mother of God would be the Bride of God through the Holy Spirit.

Does anyone have access to a translation in English of the First Homily of the Nativity of the Theotokos, by St. John Damascene?

Mary
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« Reply #633 on: May 11, 2010, 03:17:58 PM »

The Orthodox teaching that the Theotokos is the Bride...

Unwedded bride.

Exactly Mickey!  Mary and Joseph were never married!  They were betrothed to each other!  In Jesus time there were two separate and distinct Jewish ceremonies....the betrothal & the marriage.  We within Orthodoxy still have those separate ceremonies but we usually combine them on the same day.  The betrothal takes place in the back of the church where the vows and the exchange of rings takes place.  This is where the couple promise to live and take care of each other.  The marriage ceremony (Crowning) takes place in front of the Iconostatsis where a blessing is given to a sexual union.  That is why St Joseph is known as St Joseph 'the betrothed' and St Mary remained ever virgin and most pure.

What I find in the Akathist:

"Rejoice, bridal room of ungamic union; rejoice, who unite believers to the Lord as Groom.  Rejoice, O beautiful nursemaid of virgins; rejoice, bridesmaid of souls that are holy, Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride!"

That was the only marriage-type language I could find in my admittedly brief scanning of the Akathist Stanzas.

But is not this language of Bride and Groom referring to the Mother of God and Christ respectively?

Mary

FWIW, I have seen 'Unwedded Bride' for the Virgin Mary, and 'Bride' for the Church, and never the reverse.


http://www.gotquestions.org/bride-of-Christ.html

Question: "What does it mean that the church is the bride of Christ?"

Answer: The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church. These are those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have received eternal life. In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24). At the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be united with the Bridegroom, the official "wedding ceremony" will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7-9; 21:1-2).

At that time, all believers will inhabit the heavenly city known as New Jerusalem, also called “the holy city” in Revelation 21:2 and 10. The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the Apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city. The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.”

As believers in Jesus Christ, we who are the bride of Christ wait with great anticipation for the day when we will be united with our Bridegroom. Until then, we remain faithful to Him and say with all the redeemed of the Lord, “Come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_of_Christ


The Bride of Christ or bride, the Lamb's wife is one of the metaphors used in the New Testament. It is mainly taken from Revelation 21:9-10:
One of the seven angels...came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.[Rev. 21:9-10]
It implies, but is not specific, that the "Bride" is the body of believers that comprise the universal Christian Ekklesia (Church) (lit. "called-out ones"). In that verse the "New Jerusalem" is explicitly "the bride, the wife of the Lamb," almost universally considered to refer to Christ and his church.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-0>[1] It illustrates the closeness of Christ's relationship with his followers, and the depth of love and service that he holds for the Church as the body of believers. They are variously described in the New Testament as the ekklesia (meaning "church"), the body of Christ, the koinonia of the Spirit, flock, Israel of God, elect race, royal priesthood, holy nation, God's own people, temple of God, seed of Abraham, and otherwise.The ekklesia is never explicitly called the bride of Christ in the New Testament. That is approached in Ephesians 5:22-33 and in Revelation 21:9. A major analogy is that of the body. Just as husband and wife are to be "one flesh,"[Eph. 5:31] this analogy for the writer describes the relationship of Christ and ekklesia (v. 32). Husbands were exhorted to love their wives "just as Christ loved the ekklesia and gave himself for it (v. 25). When Christ nourishes and cherishes the ekklesia, he nourishes and cherishes his own flesh. Members of the ekklesia are "members of his own body" (vv. 29-30).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-1>[2]Paul of Tarsus used similar imagery elsewhere in his epistles. In his epistle to the Church at Ephesus Paul exhorts the men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. After further exhortation on marriage Paul quotes Genesis 2:24, for a man to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife to become one flesh with her. Paul calls this a mystery because marriage between a man and a woman is a prophetic act of the depth of our relationship with Jesus. This love surpasses our knowledge.[Eph 3:19]As one metaphor for the Church, the "Bride of Christ" reflects that any relationship between humans and God can only be hinted at and poorly described using any earthly terms. Although the role of bride and bridegroom captures some aspects of our relationship with God, demonstrating the strength of God's love for us and His eternal commitment to those who chose Him, many other aspects of our relationship with God cannot be described using this metaphor (or any other human concept).

======================

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« Reply #634 on: May 11, 2010, 03:31:34 PM »

http://www.gotquestions.org/bride-of-Christ.html

Question: "What does it mean that the church is the bride of Christ?"

Answer: The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church. These are those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have received eternal life. In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24). At the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be united with the Bridegroom, the official "wedding ceremony" will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7-9; 21:1-2).

At that time, all believers will inhabit the heavenly city known as New Jerusalem, also called “the holy city” in Revelation 21:2 and 10. The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the Apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city. The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.”

As believers in Jesus Christ, we who are the bride of Christ wait with great anticipation for the day when we will be united with our Bridegroom. Until then, we remain faithful to Him and say with all the redeemed of the Lord, “Come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_of_Christ


The Bride of Christ or bride, the Lamb's wife is one of the metaphors used in the New Testament. It is mainly taken from Revelation 21:9-10:
One of the seven angels...came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.[Rev. 21:9-10]
It implies, but is not specific, that the "Bride" is the body of believers that comprise the universal Christian Ekklesia (Church) (lit. "called-out ones"). In that verse the "New Jerusalem" is explicitly "the bride, the wife of the Lamb," almost universally considered to refer to Christ and his church.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-0>[1] It illustrates the closeness of Christ's relationship with his followers, and the depth of love and service that he holds for the Church as the body of believers. They are variously described in the New Testament as the ekklesia (meaning "church"), the body of Christ, the koinonia of the Spirit, flock, Israel of God, elect race, royal priesthood, holy nation, God's own people, temple of God, seed of Abraham, and otherwise.The ekklesia is never explicitly called the bride of Christ in the New Testament. That is approached in Ephesians 5:22-33 and in Revelation 21:9. A major analogy is that of the body. Just as husband and wife are to be "one flesh,"[Eph. 5:31] this analogy for the writer describes the relationship of Christ and ekklesia (v. 32). Husbands were exhorted to love their wives "just as Christ loved the ekklesia and gave himself for it (v. 25). When Christ nourishes and cherishes the ekklesia, he nourishes and cherishes his own flesh. Members of the ekklesia are "members of his own body" (vv. 29-30).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-1>[2]Paul of Tarsus used similar imagery elsewhere in his epistles. In his epistle to the Church at Ephesus Paul exhorts the men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. After further exhortation on marriage Paul quotes Genesis 2:24, for a man to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife to become one flesh with her. Paul calls this a mystery because marriage between a man and a woman is a prophetic act of the depth of our relationship with Jesus. This love surpasses our knowledge.[Eph 3:19]As one metaphor for the Church, the "Bride of Christ" reflects that any relationship between humans and God can only be hinted at and poorly described using any earthly terms. Although the role of bride and bridegroom captures some aspects of our relationship with God, demonstrating the strength of God's love for us and His eternal commitment to those who chose Him, many other aspects of our relationship with God cannot be described using this metaphor (or any other human concept).

======================

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Are you familiar with references to the Mother of God as the Bridal Chamber for the King?

Mary
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« Reply #635 on: May 11, 2010, 03:35:21 PM »

Actually I've introduced a confusion in this and didn't want to step in and "fix" it till we got through some other things.

The Mother of God would be the Bride of God through the Holy Spirit.

Does anyone have access to a translation in English of the First Homily of the Nativity of the Theotokos, by St. John Damascene?

Mary

Dear Mary,

Well, if you are going to introduce confusion, how about this...

Are you saying:

1) The Mother of God would be the Bride of God the Father through the Holy Spirit.

or

2) The Mother of God would be the Bride of the Son of God through the Holy Spirit.

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« Reply #636 on: May 11, 2010, 03:42:38 PM »

Actually I've introduced a confusion in this and didn't want to step in and "fix" it till we got through some other things.

The Mother of God would be the Bride of God through the Holy Spirit.

Does anyone have access to a translation in English of the First Homily of the Nativity of the Theotokos, by St. John Damascene?

Mary

Dear Mary,

Well, if you are going to introduce confusion, how about this...

Are you saying:

1) The Mother of God would be the Bride of God the Father through the Holy Spirit.

or

2) The Mother of God would be the Bride of the Son of God through the Holy Spirit.



References to her as the Bridal Chamber of the King would prompt me to say that both would be accurate ways of referencing the Mother of God.

However the second reference should be used sparingly and I would say not at all directly so as not to confuse the primary role as Mother of God...unless one speaks of her as Bride of Christ in the highly metaphoric and poetic language of something like:  The Bridal Chamber of the King.

And then as you say in all cases mediated by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Which is why I said that I had introduced confusion rather than error.

Also I think I have found the source for a translation of the First Homily of the Nativity of the Theotokos by St. John Damascene...I can't afford to buy it at the moment...but I know where it is now.

M.
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« Reply #637 on: May 11, 2010, 03:46:58 PM »

This avatar is a kind of contradiction.



Racism and Christianity, ¿Are they well conuciled in "orthodoxy"?
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« Reply #638 on: May 11, 2010, 03:48:21 PM »

Dear Mary,

Then, if I may, offer you this: look first to the Scriptures, then to the services.  For example, look at the various rites associated with monasticism and see how the rite describes the monastic life.  You will find your uncontroverted answers there.  As always, we look to the totality of the poetry rather than 'proof texting.'  For my part, I would say that poetic language is terrible for argumentation because the very nature of it is not in the word but in the flow, the rhythm, the cadence.  Taking out a line here ot there kills it utterly, because it is not made to argue or define, but rather to harmonize with that understanding that already dwells within the listener.

We can 'teach' with hymnody, but only to the extent that the understanding has already been given.  Poetry gives beauty to what is already powerful, but, as the Councils of the Church show us, we also need clear words as well.  Peotry is based on clarity, but once infused in poetry it is difficult to distill back.  It serves as a reminder of what was already known.


I try to keep this in mind but it is a particularly beautiful and inspiring reminder and I am going to cut and paste it and print it to go in my prayerbooks.

Thank you...truly...It means a great deal.

Mary
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« Reply #639 on: May 11, 2010, 03:49:30 PM »

This avatar is a kind of contradiction.



Racism and Christianity, ¿Are they well conuciled in "orthodoxy"?

Oh get lost darn it!!...Go away from this thread.   There are good things going on here and there's no need to come in with NOTHING to say.

M.
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« Reply #640 on: May 11, 2010, 03:52:51 PM »

BUMP!  Father G.  I want to make sure you see this.

Mary

Dear Mary,

Then, if I may, offer you this: look first to the Scriptures, then to the services.  For example, look at the various rites associated with monasticism and see how the rite describes the monastic life.  You will find your uncontroverted answers there.  As always, we look to the totality of the poetry rather than 'proof texting.'  For my part, I would say that poetic language is terrible for argumentation because the very nature of it is not in the word but in the flow, the rhythm, the cadence.  Taking out a line here ot there kills it utterly, because it is not made to argue or define, but rather to harmonize with that understanding that already dwells within the listener.

We can 'teach' with hymnody, but only to the extent that the understanding has already been given.  Poetry gives beauty to what is already powerful, but, as the Councils of the Church show us, we also need clear words as well.  Peotry is based on clarity, but once infused in poetry it is difficult to distill back.  It serves as a reminder of what was already known.


I try to keep this in mind but it is a particularly beautiful and inspiring reminder and I am going to cut and paste it and print it to go in my prayerbooks.

Thank you...truly...It means a great deal.

Mary
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« Reply #641 on: May 11, 2010, 03:58:12 PM »

I have seen the title, “Bride of God” being used for the Most Holy Theotokos when she is referred to as a sign of the Church (Rev 21:2).

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« Reply #642 on: May 11, 2010, 04:01:05 PM »

This avatar is a kind of contradiction.



Racism and Christianity, ¿Are they well conuciled in "orthodoxy"?

You're just trying to get banned so that you can feel like a martyr.
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« Reply #643 on: May 11, 2010, 04:27:22 PM »

I have seen the title, “Bride of God” being used for the Most Holy Theotokos when she is referred to as a sign of the Church (Rev 21:2).

Yes.  It makes sense there.  It also makes sense with reference to the Bridal Chamber of the King with reference to the action of the Holy Spirit and Jesus begotten in the Virgin's womb.

I guess what is on my mind at the moment is St. Irenaeus and his references to the framework of recapitulation in the redemption of the world and the role of the Holy Spirit in that recapitulation.

And the Nativity Homily of St. John Damascene.

Does Orthodoxy see the constant referencing of the Virginity of the Theotokos in spiritual terms at all or is it strictly a physical designator?

Mary
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« Reply #644 on: May 11, 2010, 04:45:53 PM »

I did brush this off the table too fast.  I know I did but I wanted to hear some other things first.  Sometimes cautions can become real walls rather than just remaining cautionary.

At any rate I recognize the concern that the Immaculate Conception might have been more than necessary. 

I have a different perspective on it because I am inclined to trust the understanding and meaning of the definition and I do not fear it for any reason, nor do I see it as any exercise in power any more than I think the effulgence of liturgical poetry is "too much" of a good thing....though I know I can get an argument on that right in Orthodoxy.

At any rate this point is well taken.

I hope that at some point both confessions will come to agreement with this particular expression of truth.

Mary


Much of this is metaphor and hyperbole.  Both Orthodox and Eastern Catholics delight in it and never expect Roman Catholics to impose dogma on it or to extract  dogma from it.


The response of the Catholic Melkites at Vatican II to the new title for the Mother of God "Mother of the Church" is very similar to the Orthodox response and highlights what I am trying to say.

We have no problem with heaping an infinite number of praises upon the Mother of God.


The Melkite response is well worth the read. Here is an extract.  I've placed the crux of it in BLUE:


It will have been noticed that during the passionate debates that characterized
the Council’s discussion of this schema “On the Virgin Mary,” Patriarch Maximos
and the Melkite Greek Fathers refused to intervene. They were astonished to
their very depths at the importance that was attached to recognizing or refusing
this new title “Mother of the Church” to the Theotokos.

Accustomed to the poetic language of their liturgy, in which the Virgin is saluted
with a thousand titles, they had no trouble in accepting this new title, if it is
interpreted in a large, liturgical, and poetic sense, or in refusing it, if it is interpreted
in a sense that is too realistic and too literal.



Mary and the Church

The preparatory doctrinal commission had begun by preparing an independent schema entitled: “On the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of Men.” On June 5, 1962, the patriarch wrote to praise two intentions expressed in the text, namely: no new title for the Virgin, no new Marian dogma. But already he had been struck by the absence in the text of patristic citations, above all Eastern ones, in a domain which the Eastern Fathers have explored superabundantly. Only popes are cited.


1) We agree entirely with the care demonstrated by the theological commission in not granting to the holy Mother of God any new titles that have not been accepted by the Tradition of the Church.


2) We equally agree with the care to avoid defining new Marian dogmas, in spite of the pressure, as blind as it is well intentioned, of certain groups of devotees of the Virgin. In this matter, as in so many others, we must never lose sight of our separated brethren, above all those of the East, and avoid that which, in our efforts to honor the Virgin, deepens the chasm that separates us from them. The Virgin surely is not pleased by a homage that unnecessarily contributes to the widening of the divisions among her children.


3) We would point out, with respect to the drafting of the notes, that one should not be content with citing popes, especially in a matter on which the Fathers of the Church have spoken so much and so well. We must avoid giving the impression that in the eyes of the theologians of the council only popes form the magisterium of the Church. With a unionist goal, it would even be good to cite in particular the Fathers of the Eastern Church.



It will have been noticed that during the passionate debates that characterized the Council’s discussion of this schema “On the Virgin Mary,” Patriarch Maximos and the Melkite Greek Fathers refused to intervene. They were astonished to their very depths at the importance that was attached to recognizing or refusing this new title “Mother of the Church” to the Theotokos. Accustomed to the poetic language of their liturgy, in which the Virgin is saluted with a thousand titles, they had no trouble in accepting this new title, if it is interpreted in a large, liturgical, and poetic sense, or in refusing it, if it is interpreted in a sense that is too realistic and too literal.


Nevertheless, Patriarch Maximos, urged to speak, began to prepare the intervention that we publish below. Finally, he decided not to deliver it. This was in the 1963 session.


Before entering into a study of this schema “Concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary,” it is proper to ask ourselves this question: Is it necessary that this Second Vatican Council, already swamped with questions, devote a special dogmatic constitution to the most holy Mother of God?


For my part [the Melkite Patriarch], I do not think so. ...


Please go to (.pfd)
http://melkite.org/xCouncil/Council%20Chapter%204.doc

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« Reply #645 on: May 11, 2010, 04:54:21 PM »

Dear Mary,

Then, if I may, offer you this: look first to the Scriptures, then to the services.  For example, look at the various rites associated with monasticism and see how the rite describes the monastic life.  You will find your uncontroverted answers there.  As always, we look to the totality of the poetry rather than 'proof texting.'  For my part, I would say that poetic language is terrible for argumentation because the very nature of it is not in the word but in the flow, the rhythm, the cadence.  Taking out a line here ot there kills it utterly, because it is not made to argue or define, but rather to harmonize with that understanding that already dwells within the listener.

We can 'teach' with hymnody, but only to the extent that the understanding has already been given.  Poetry gives beauty to what is already powerful, but, as the Councils of the Church show us, we also need clear words as well.  Peotry is based on clarity, but once infused in poetry it is difficult to distill back.  It serves as a reminder of what was already known.


I try to keep this in mind but it is a particularly beautiful and inspiring reminder and I am going to cut and paste it and print it to go in my prayerbooks.

Thank you...truly...It means a great deal.

Mary

Dear Mary,

I am truly grateful to God to be of service to you.
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« Reply #646 on: May 11, 2010, 05:03:46 PM »

Dear Mary,

Then, if I may, offer you this: look first to the Scriptures, then to the services.  For example, look at the various rites associated with monasticism and see how the rite describes the monastic life.  You will find your uncontroverted answers there.  As always, we look to the totality of the poetry rather than 'proof texting.'  For my part, I would say that poetic language is terrible for argumentation because the very nature of it is not in the word but in the flow, the rhythm, the cadence.  Taking out a line here ot there kills it utterly, because it is not made to argue or define, but rather to harmonize with that understanding that already dwells within the listener.

We can 'teach' with hymnody, but only to the extent that the understanding has already been given.  Poetry gives beauty to what is already powerful, but, as the Councils of the Church show us, we also need clear words as well.  Peotry is based on clarity, but once infused in poetry it is difficult to distill back.  It serves as a reminder of what was already known.


I try to keep this in mind but it is a particularly beautiful and inspiring reminder and I am going to cut and paste it and print it to go in my prayerbooks.

Thank you...truly...It means a great deal.

Mary

Dear Mary,

I am truly grateful to God to be of service to you.


Father Bless!

That is why it means so very much.

Mary
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« Reply #647 on: May 11, 2010, 05:21:31 PM »

Are you familiar with references to the Mother of God as the Bridal Chamber for the King?

Mary

You are aware that a bridal chamber is a room, right?  This would fit in perfectly with some other titles that are related to her carrying Christ in her womb, most famous amongst them (for the Orthodox) is "Platytera ton Ouranon" or "Wider/More Spacious than the Heavens."  This does not fit in with the Mary as Bride of Christ image.
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« Reply #648 on: May 11, 2010, 06:01:07 PM »

Are you familiar with references to the Mother of God as the Bridal Chamber for the King?

Mary

You are aware that a bridal chamber is a room, right?  This would fit in perfectly with some other titles that are related to her carrying Christ in her womb, most famous amongst them (for the Orthodox) is "Platytera ton Ouranon" or "Wider/More Spacious than the Heavens."  This does not fit in with the Mary as Bride of Christ image.

It does fit with Bride of the Bridegroom however and the Bridegroom is divine. 

It is an intimacy that is unique to the Most Holy Mother of God.

Which is the imagery that it is meant to evoke...I believe.

M.
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« Reply #649 on: May 11, 2010, 06:11:11 PM »

Are you familiar with references to the Mother of God as the Bridal Chamber for the King?

Mary

You are aware that a bridal chamber is a room, right?  This would fit in perfectly with some other titles that are related to her carrying Christ in her womb, most famous amongst them (for the Orthodox) is "Platytera ton Ouranon" or "Wider/More Spacious than the Heavens."  This does not fit in with the Mary as Bride of Christ image.

If I had the translation of St. John Damascene's First Homily on the Nativity of the Theotokos I would be able to show you what he did with the Bride and Bridegroom imagery, and it is neatly done so that you "see" clearly the interrelationship and intimacy between the Mother, the Son and the Holy Spirit all in the imagery of the Bride and Bridegroom.  It is very evocative and very beautiful.

Someone had once copied out the passages for me and I cannot find them though I've been searching all afternoon.

Mary
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« Reply #650 on: May 11, 2010, 06:23:40 PM »

John of Damascus homilies on the Dormition
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« Reply #651 on: May 11, 2010, 07:00:42 PM »


Yes.  These three are more common.  Unfortunately the Homily on The Nativity of the Theotokos has not had as wide a circulation as these.

M.
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« Reply #652 on: May 11, 2010, 09:15:01 PM »

Kolbe uses the phrase, "uncreated immaculate conception".

How strange.  Huh
How is that strange. Your tradition teaches that created beings can some how become "uncreated".

Papist, you need to look for better sources.  We teach no such thing.
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« Reply #653 on: May 11, 2010, 09:33:06 PM »

The Orthodox teaching that the Theotokos is the Bride...

Unwedded bride.

Exactly Mickey!  Mary and Joseph were never married!  They were betrothed to each other!  In Jesus time there were two separate and distinct Jewish ceremonies....the betrothal & the marriage.  We within Orthodoxy still have those separate ceremonies but we usually combine them on the same day.  The betrothal takes place in the back of the church where the vows and the exchange of rings takes place.  This is where the couple promise to live and take care of each other.  The marriage ceremony (Crowning) takes place in front of the Iconostatsis where a blessing is given to a sexual union.  That is why St Joseph is known as St Joseph 'the betrothed' and St Mary remained ever virgin and most pure.

Orthodoc

Isn't unwed bride oxymoronic then?  Why use Bride at all?

Mary
Christ is Risen!

When you can understand that you may understand a lot more of Orthodoxy.  The Melkite Patriarch and his brother bishops understand.  See message above (#602) about Vatican II and the title "Mother of the Church."  Knowing now that you do not understand has brought home to me why some of our discussions have been so futile and lacking in mutual understanding.  It makes me see that the often laboured contentions of the Father in the Ohio monastery about inability to understand were not so off the mark as I thought at the time.

Mary, you are a 100% credit to the Roman Catholic mindset and a child of Rome.  Why fight it? 
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« Reply #654 on: May 11, 2010, 09:37:20 PM »

The Orthodox teaching that the Theotokos is the Bride...

Unwedded bride.

Exactly Mickey!  Mary and Joseph were never married!  They were betrothed to each other!  In Jesus time there were two separate and distinct Jewish ceremonies....the betrothal & the marriage.  We within Orthodoxy still have those separate ceremonies but we usually combine them on the same day.  The betrothal takes place in the back of the church where the vows and the exchange of rings takes place.  This is where the couple promise to live and take care of each other.  The marriage ceremony (Crowning) takes place in front of the Iconostatsis where a blessing is given to a sexual union.  That is why St Joseph is known as St Joseph 'the betrothed' and St Mary remained ever virgin and most pure.

Orthodoc

Isn't unwed bride oxymoronic then?  Why use Bride at all?

Mary
Christ is Risen!

When you can understand that you may understand a lot more of Orthodoxy.  The Melkite Patriarch and his brother bishops understand.  See message above (#602) about Vatican II and the title "Mother of the Church."  Knowing now that you do not understand has brought home to me why some of our discussions have been so futile and lacking in mutual understanding.  It makes me see that the often laboured contentions of the Father in the Ohio monastery about inability to understand were not so off the mark as I thought at the time.

Mary, you are a 100% credit to the Roman Catholic mindset and a child of Rome.  Why fight it? 

You hang with the Melkite Patriarch and I'll hang with St. John Damascene!!  Cheesy

M.
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« Reply #655 on: May 11, 2010, 09:37:44 PM »


That understanding of universal Orthodoxy is not buttressed by my long standing membership on the Indiana Orthodox list, for however much I love may many of the traditions of ROCOR, I do not see or fully accept that ROCOR today is the pure womb of universal Orthodoxy.

That sets me apart immediately but I think there are grounds, that I have found within Orthodoxy,  for going ahead and staying apart from the idea that ROCOR is the pure womb of universal Orthodoxy for the time being.


Speaking as a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, I am flattered that anyone would think we are or have been "the pure womb"!!    I assume that you picked this up from detractors of ROCA who were speaking in jest.  
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« Reply #656 on: May 11, 2010, 09:38:46 PM »

The Orthodox teaching that the Theotokos is the Bride...

Unwedded bride.

Exactly Mickey!  Mary and Joseph were never married!  They were betrothed to each other!  In Jesus time there were two separate and distinct Jewish ceremonies....the betrothal & the marriage.  We within Orthodoxy still have those separate ceremonies but we usually combine them on the same day.  The betrothal takes place in the back of the church where the vows and the exchange of rings takes place.  This is where the couple promise to live and take care of each other.  The marriage ceremony (Crowning) takes place in front of the Iconostatsis where a blessing is given to a sexual union.  That is why St Joseph is known as St Joseph 'the betrothed' and St Mary remained ever virgin and most pure.

Orthodoc

Isn't unwed bride oxymoronic then?  Why use Bride at all?

Mary
Christ is Risen!

When you can understand that you may understand a lot more of Orthodoxy.  The Melkite Patriarch and his brother bishops understand.  See message above (#602) about Vatican II and the title "Mother of the Church."  Knowing now that you do not understand has brought home to me why some of our discussions have been so futile and lacking in mutual understanding.  It makes me see that the often laboured contentions of the Father in the Ohio monastery about inability to understand were not so off the mark as I thought at the time.

Mary, you are a 100% credit to the Roman Catholic mindset and a child of Rome.  Why fight it? 

You hang with the Melkite Patriarch and I'll hang with St. John Damascene!!  Cheesy

M.
I would hang with St. John Damascene any day. He is amazing.
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« Reply #657 on: May 11, 2010, 09:39:45 PM »


That understanding of universal Orthodoxy is not buttressed by my long standing membership on the Indiana Orthodox list, for however much I love may many of the traditions of ROCOR, I do not see or fully accept that ROCOR today is the pure womb of universal Orthodoxy.

That sets me apart immediately but I think there are grounds, that I have found within Orthodoxy,  for going ahead and staying apart from the idea that ROCOR is the pure womb of universal Orthodoxy for the time being.


 
Speaking as a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, I am flattered that anyone would think we are or have been "the pure womb"!!    I assume that you picked this up from detractors of ROCA who were speaking in jest.  

laugh I picked that up from you!!  And because of you I don't agree.

M.
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« Reply #658 on: May 11, 2010, 10:05:15 PM »

This avatar is a kind of contradiction.



Racism and Christianity, ¿Are they well conuciled in "orthodoxy"?

Very well.

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« Reply #659 on: May 11, 2010, 10:07:00 PM »

OK, folks, gather 'round. Here is the text of the Orthodox Vigil (festal Vespers and Matins) for the feast of the Conception of the Mother of God. There is, unfortunately, a missing portion from Matins, that of the festal Canon. Should I locate it in English (I have it in Slavonic and Greek, which won't help most of you  Smiley), I'll pass it on:

Vespers:

at "Lord I have Cried":

Having past hope borne as fruit the holy Virgin, who shall give birth in the flesh unto the God of all, once-barren Anna is radiant with jubilation, rejoicing, dancing and crying mightily: All ye tribes of Israel, rejoice with me today who have conceived, casting off the blame I had when childless; the Benefactor hath hearkened to my prayer, and in His goodness, He hath been well pleased to heal all the pains of my grieving heart through the pangs of my childbirth, even as of old He promised me.

He that made water to well up from a dry rock granteth now the Ever-virgin Lady to thy womb as fruit, O Anna, and it is she from whom the water of our salvation shall issue forth for us; no more dost thou sojourn on the earth as fruitless earth; thou art estranged from reproach henceforth, for thou shalt bring forth the earth that beareth the Wheat of Life Himself, and He shall take away every reproach from all mortals, as He is well pleased to do, through His bowels of mercy being formed in what was not His own.

The Prophets’ mystic predictions find fulfillment, for the holy mountain is established in the womb; the great majestic throne of the King is being readied; and the divine ladder hath been planted firm; on the earth, the place where God doth walk hath been prepared; the bush that burned not doth now begin to bud and sprout forth; and the myrrh-vessel of holiness doth now well forth to check the streams of barrenness of chaste Anna, the eldress of godly mind; let us all call her blessed, while extolling her with fervent faith.

Theotokion of the feast:

The mighty work that was kept hidden from Angels and men, that marvelous mystery foretold in oracles from the beginning of time, is today formed as a babe in the loins of chaste Anna: Mary, the Child of God, is prepared as the habitation of the Sovereign King of the ages, for the refashioning of our race. With conscience clear, let us make entreaty, crying unto her: Since thou art the protection of us Christians, intercede with thy Son and God that our souls be saved.

Apostikha:

Adam and Eve, rejoice and put aside all sorrow; for in a barren woman, beyond all hope the Mother of Joy doth bud as a fruit today.

Verse: The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David, and He will not annul it.

Forefather Abraham, all Patriarchs and Fathers, be filled with jubilation on seeing that the Mother of God doth spring forth from your root.

Verse: Of the fruit of thy loins will I set upon thy throne.

Joachim, leap for joy; rejoice with him, O Anna; for on this day ye bear fruit that is the cause of joy and salvation for the world entire.


Theotokion:

Today the royal purple hath sprouted from the root of David, and the mystical flower of Jesse beginneth to bud, from which blossomed forth Christ our God, the Savior of our souls.

Troparion of the Feast:

Today have the bonds of barrenness been loosened; God, having heard the prayers of Joachim and Anna, promised them openly that they should give birth, beyond hope, to the Maiden of God, from whom He, the infinite One was to be born, becoming man, commanding the angel to shout to her: Rejoice, O full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

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« Reply #660 on: May 11, 2010, 10:12:24 PM »


That understanding of universal Orthodoxy is not buttressed by my long standing membership on the Indiana Orthodox list, for however much I love may many of the traditions of ROCOR, I do not see or fully accept that ROCOR today is the pure womb of universal Orthodoxy.

That sets me apart immediately but I think there are grounds, that I have found within Orthodoxy,  for going ahead and staying apart from the idea that ROCOR is the pure womb of universal Orthodoxy for the time being.


 
Speaking as a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, I am flattered that anyone would think we are or have been "the pure womb"!!    I assume that you picked this up from detractors of ROCA who were speaking in jest. 

laugh I picked that up from you!!  And because of you I don't agree.

M.

I find the claim that ROCA is the "pure womb" of Orthodox quite disturbing.  I may have used it in some context but it doesn't really seem something I would say.

As for rejecting ROCA because of me.... You are being unfair to ROCA.   I am not ROCA!  I spent most of my life in the Church of Serbia. I was formed there from head to toe decades before I moved into ROCA in 1996.   
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« Reply #661 on: May 11, 2010, 10:14:48 PM »

From Matins:

Sessional hymns after "God is the Lord":

Behold, at the almighty behest of the Lord God, in Anna’s holy womb the new heaven is fashioned, from which hath shone forth the bright-beaming Sun that doth never set, Who hath lightened all the world with rays of His Godhead in the tenderness of His exceeding compassion, the only Lover of mankind.

Of old, the Prophets’ choir clearly cried out beforehand and preached the Child of God and the immaculate Maiden, whom Anna conceived though she had been barren and bare no fruit. Now with joy of heart, let us the faithful all bless her as the only undefiled and all-blameless Maiden; for we have been saved through her.

O Adam, now be renewed; O Eve, do thou leap for joy; for earth that was barren and dried up hath now budded forth a mightily thriving fruit, which shall sprout the Wheat of Immortality for us, and hath done away all the reproach of the childless. Today let us rejoice and be glad, keeping the feast with them.

David, raise thy voice and cry: What is it God hath sworn to thee? What he swore to me, saith he, behold, He likewise hath fulfilled: for as the fruit of my loins, He bestowed the Virgin. From her, the Fashioner and the new Adam, Christ, hath been born a King to sit upon my throne; and as a king today He reigneth, Who hath a Kingdom unshakeable. The barren beareth the Theotokos, the nourisher of our Life.


Kontakion and Ikos:

Today the universe celebrateth the conception in Anna which is from God; for she hath given birth to her who gave birth to the Word in an ineffable manner.

Thou art He that once gave the great Isaac as a son to Sarah in deep old age by Thine overshadowing and Thy promise. Thou, O Almighty, art He that opened the barren womb of Hannah, the mother of Samuel Thy Prophet. And now do Thou look upon me, and accept my supplications, and fulfill mine entreaties, cried the chaste and barren Anna with lamentation; and the Benefactor hearkened unto her. Wherefore, with joy she conceived the Virgin that beyond words conceiveth the Word of God.


Synaxarion:

On December 9 in the Holy Orthodox Church we commemorate Saint Anna’s Conception of the Most Holy Theotokos.

Verse:
Not like Eve dost thou bring forth children in sorrow,
For within thy womb thou bearest joy, O Anna.
On the ninth Anna conceived Mary, God’s Mother.

After many years of childlessness and fervent prayer, an angel of the Lord announced to Joachim and Anna that that they would be the parents of a daughter, the Virgin Mary, who would bring blessings to the whole human race.  The Conception took place at Jerusalem.  The Orthodox Church does not accept the teaching that the Mother of God was exempted from the consequences of ancestral sin (death, corruption, sin, etc.) at the moment of her conception by virtue of the future merits of her Son.  Only Christ was born perfectly holy and sinless.  The Holy Virgin was like everyone else in her mortality and in being subject to temptation, although she committed no personal sins.  She was not a deified creature removed from the rest of humanity.  If this were the case, she would not have been truly human, and the nature that Christ took from her would not have been truly human either.  If Christ does not truly share our human nature, then the possibility of our salvation is in doubt.

Through the intercessions of Thy Most-holy Mother and Thy righteous ancestors, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy upon us, and save us. Amen.


Exaposteilarion:

The Lord, being compassionate, lent His ear to the sighing of Anna the august and chaste, and He gave her the Virgin, her who alone knew not a man and who made the light to shine on all the world past all telling; as for famous and godly Joachim, when he saw this, he was amazed and exultant.

Theotokion:

Now from a womb once barren, the Holy Wisdom of our God doth build Himself a divine house, the Theotokos Mariam; let us, the world’s generations, as is her due, call her blessed.

Praises:

Anna, the worthy namesake of grace, as she was praying for a child, cried aloud to God, the Maker and Lord of all things: O Lord Sabaoth, Thou well knowest what reproach the childless bear; do Thou then Thyself dispel the great sorrow within my heart, and do Thou open wide the floodgates that bar my womb; her that hath no fruit, do Thou show forth as bearing fruit, that we might bring the child which shall be born as a gift to Thee, even while the blessing and praising and glorifying with one accord Thy tender compassion, whereby pardon and Great Mercy is granted to the world.

Anna the chaste was praying of old, and while entreating God with firm and undoubting faith, she heard the voice of an Angel that gave assurance to her, promising divine fulfillment of her prayers; the bodiless minister then declared to her openly: Thy supplication is come nigh and hath reached the Lord; put away thy tears; be not downcast nor sorrowful. For thou shalt truly be a fruitful olive tree putting forth a comely branch, even Mary, the Virgin who shall bear in the flesh Christ Jesus, the Flower, Who bestoweth His Great Mercy and peace upon the world.

Now doth the hallowed yoke-pair bring forth the godly heifer, whence shall come forth the Fatted Calf ineffably in a marvel; and He shall freely be slain truly for the whole world as a sacrifice. For which cause, with joyful hearts they both offer unceasing thanks in great compunction to the Master and God of all, and from this day forth they have all the world in their debt. Let us then call them blessed, and with faith, dance for godly joy on the all-hallowed conception of her that chastely was born of them: our God’s Virgin Mother, even her through whom Great Mercy is richly given forth.


Theotokion:

Today the royal purple hath sprouted from the root of David, and the mystical flower of Jesse beginneth to bud, from which blossomed forth Christ our God, the Savior of our souls.

Is there any mention of an immaculate conception of Mary within this hymnody?
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« Reply #662 on: May 11, 2010, 10:16:15 PM »


That understanding of universal Orthodoxy is not buttressed by my long standing membership on the Indiana Orthodox list, for however much I love may many of the traditions of ROCOR, I do not see or fully accept that ROCOR today is the pure womb of universal Orthodoxy.

That sets me apart immediately but I think there are grounds, that I have found within Orthodoxy,  for going ahead and staying apart from the idea that ROCOR is the pure womb of universal Orthodoxy for the time being.


 
Speaking as a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, I am flattered that anyone would think we are or have been "the pure womb"!!    I assume that you picked this up from detractors of ROCA who were speaking in jest. 

laugh I picked that up from you!!  And because of you I don't agree.

M.

I find the claim that ROCA is the "pure womb" of Orthodox quite disturbing.  I may have used it in some context but it doesn't really seem something I would say.

As for rejecting ROCA because of me.... You are being unfair to ROCA.   I am not ROCA!  I spent most of my life in the Church of Serbia. I was formed there from head to toe decades before I moved into ROCA in 1996.   

With me, you reap what you have sown.

I will continue to pray for you, please keep me in your prayers.

Mary
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« Reply #663 on: May 11, 2010, 10:24:49 PM »


After many years of childlessness and fervent prayer, an angel of the Lord announced to Joachim and Anna that that they would be the parents of a daughter, the Virgin Mary, who would bring blessings to the whole human race.  The Conception took place at Jerusalem.  The Orthodox Church does not accept the teaching that the Mother of God was exempted from the consequences of ancestral sin (death, corruption, sin, etc.) at the moment of her conception by virtue of the future merits of her Son.  Only Christ was born perfectly holy and sinless.  The Holy Virgin was like everyone else in her mortality and in being subject to temptation, although she committed no personal sins.  She was not a deified creature removed from the rest of humanity.  If this were the case, she would not have been truly human, and the nature that Christ took from her would not have been truly human either.  If Christ does not truly share our human nature, then the possibility of our salvation is in doubt.

Not exactly ancient text is it?  Wink

I can't wait till I am deified and no longer fully human!!

M.
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« Reply #664 on: May 11, 2010, 10:35:31 PM »

Not exactly ancient text is it?  Wink

I can't wait till I am deified and no longer fully human!!

M.

Is this the best you can come up with? You truly disappoint me with your cheap shots.
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« Reply #665 on: May 11, 2010, 10:52:40 PM »

Not exactly ancient text is it?  Wink

I can't wait till I am deified and no longer fully human!!

M.

Is this the best you can come up with? You truly disappoint me with your cheap shots.

It is the best I can do within the parameters of my faith.  We do not believe that being deified makes us anything but fully human participants in the life of the Trinity.  We do not stop being the adopted sons and daughters of God. 

I thought perhaps you were joking with that text so I joked back.  If that text is seriously a part of the liturgy then that is a crying shame because it does not even accurately address the actual teaching of the Immaculate Conception but some perversion of the teaching that has no bearing on what I believe.

Mary
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« Reply #666 on: May 12, 2010, 12:06:40 AM »

Text of the Feast of the Conception of the Mother of God

LBK, thanks for posting the text.  If any Service should contain the teaching of the Immaculate Conception this is the one.

I am not sure but this is something composed by Saint John of Damascus?  According to what the Roman Catholics are saying (Kucharek, Mary, Fr Kimel) this was at a time when the Eastern Church and her Fathers were supposedly teaching the Immaculate Conception.  But in the text we see no such teaching, neither overt nor subliminal.  So it quite disproves the contention that the East once maintained the Immaculate Conception and then decided to obliterate it.
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« Reply #667 on: May 12, 2010, 02:51:41 AM »

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If that text is seriously a part of the liturgy then that is a crying shame because it does not even accurately address the actual teaching of the Immaculate Conception but some perversion of the teaching that has no bearing on what I believe.

1. That text (the Vigil text, not just the Synaxarion) I provided is indeed part of the Orthodox festal cycle. I didn't make it up. Go to an Orthodox church on the eve of this feast, and you'll hear those words being sung, chanted and read.

2. The only "crying shame" is upon you: that you've been irrefutably caught out in your persistent claim that the Orthodox once taught the IC, and then suppressed it.

3. "Perversion of the teaching"? Are you Orthodox, Mary? No, you are not. The hymnody does not address the IC at all (apart from a brief reference in the Synaxarion) because it has never been part of Orthodox doctrine. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

And, by the way, here's the dismissal at the Divine Liturgy for the feast:

May Christ our true God, through the intercessions of His most-pure Mother—whose holy Conception by righteous Anna we now celebrate—by the might of the Precious and Life-giving Cross; by the protection of the honorable Bodiless Powers of Heaven; at the supplication of the honorable, glorious Prophet, Forerunner and Baptist John; of the holy, glorious and all-laudable apostles; of our father among the saints, John Chrysostom, archbishop of Constantinople, whose Divine Liturgy we have now celebrated; of the holy, glorious and right-victorious Martyrs; of our venerable and God-bearing Fathers; of Saint N., the patron and protector of this holy community; of the holy and righteous ancestors of God, Joachim and Anna, whose memory we celebrate today, and of all the saints: have mercy on us and save us, as He is good and loveth mankind.

Note the words in bold: holy, not immaculate conception.
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« Reply #668 on: May 12, 2010, 03:57:56 AM »

More food for thought:

An examination of the Vigil text I have provided brings up several themes:

 - the answering of the prayers of the elderly and childless Joachim and Anna
 - the fulfilling of the OT prophecy of the sprouting of a new shoot from the root of David
 - the miraculous conception of a child by elderly parents (one can see parallels with other such Biblical figures, such as Abraham and Sarah, Hannah, and Zachariah and Elizabeth)
 - anticipation that this child born to them is to be dedicated to God, and prepared for her singular and incomprehensible act of herself conceiving and bearing God Incarnate.

Surely, if this miraculously-conceived child was immaculately conceived as according to RC doctrine, this would be proclaimed throughout the hymnody, especially at the festal troparion, the kontakion, the magnification at Matins (which I do not have in English yet), and at the liturgical dismissal, and possibly the exaposteilarion. I call to mind (but one example) the feast of the Meeting of the Lord, where the hymnody is peppered with references to the act of Righteous Symeon taking the 40-day-old Christ in his arms. This is not simply a retelling of a historical event, but one of immense theological significance.

Do we see any reference at all in the Vigil to an immaculate conception of the child conceived by Anna? No, we do not. Holy conception, yes. Miraculous, beyond words, yes. Immaculate? No.

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« Reply #669 on: May 12, 2010, 04:17:39 AM »

/\ The Magnification for the Feast of the conception of the Mother of God:

Величаем Тя, Пресвятая Дево, и чтим святых Твоих родителей, и всеславное славим рождество Твое.

We magnify Thee, O most holy Virgin, and we honour Thy parents, and we glorify Thine all glorious nativity
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« Reply #670 on: May 12, 2010, 04:30:41 AM »

This avatar is a kind of contradiction.



Racism and Christianity, ¿Are they well conuciled in "orthodoxy"?

Oh get lost darn it!!...Go away from this thread.   There are good things going on here and there's no need to come in with NOTHING to say.

M.
Alonso , do go away ,Mary is on a roll trying to convince us to accept Latin heresies,Holy Othodoxy knows better though..We know our own faith very clearly and what we believe  in.. Grin
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #671 on: May 12, 2010, 09:08:38 AM »

Alonso , do go away ,Mary is on a roll trying to convince us to accept Latin heresies,Holy Othodoxy knows better though..We know our own faith very clearly and what we believe  in.. Grin

Do any of you really think that I am going to take these last few rounds of self-congratulation seriously?

I don't. 

I take Father Lev Gillet's sources seriously.  I take Father Casimir Kucharek's sources seriously. 
These are not MY arguments, so you cannot hush the reality that they exist by hushing ME.

 Grin...

Like I said.  I'll hang with St. John Damascene.

And don't forget boys, I am eastern Catholic and I use the same liturgical books you do...every day.

Pigeons.

M.
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« Reply #672 on: May 12, 2010, 10:14:57 AM »


And don't forget boys, I am eastern Catholic and I use the same liturgical books you do...every day.

In this case, not quite.  As we discovered to everybody's surprise when discussing the text for this particular Feast on ByzCath. org, the text has been fiddled with so as to introduce the teaching of the Immaculate Conception.

I suppose that's fair enough for Eastern Catholics since they are obliged to believe in the Immaculate Conception or fall some heavy papal punishments.  But it is a little deceptive for the ordinary parishioner who hears it, assumes that these texts are as ancient as the rest of the Service and wonders why his or her Orthodox brethren are being so "perverse" as to deny it when it is, he assumes, right there in the Service with 100% clarity.  (Something you seem to be doing yourself!  Embarrassed Pshaw!)
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« Reply #673 on: May 12, 2010, 11:00:56 AM »


I take Father Lev Gillet's sources seriously.  I take Father Casimir Kucharek's sources seriously. 
These are not MY arguments, so you cannot hush the reality that they exist by hushing ME.


I have heard that the Ruthenian Catholics are, of all the Eastern Catholic Churches, the most docile and submissive to Rome.   While they dedicate their churches in the States to the Immaculate Conception, other Eastern Catholics stand up and say they deny the dogma.
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« Reply #674 on: May 12, 2010, 11:17:27 AM »


And don't forget boys, I am eastern Catholic and I use the same liturgical books you do...every day.

In this case, not quite.  As we discovered to everybody's surprise when discussing the text for this particular Feast on ByzCath. org, the text has been fiddled with so as to introduce the teaching of the Immaculate Conception.

I suppose that's fair enough for Eastern Catholics since they are obliged to believe in the Immaculate Conception or fall some heavy papal punishments.  But it is a little deceptive for the ordinary parishioner who hears it, assumes that these texts are as ancient as the rest of the Service and wonders why his or her Orthodox brethren are being so "perverse" as to deny it when it is, he assumes, right there in the Service with 100% clarity.  (Something you seem to be doing yourself!  Embarrassed Pshaw!)

The liturgical books I have are a gift to me from an Orthodox source.  I have had them for years.  I have a condensed horologian for when I travel that is Ukrainian Catholic, but my home texts are Orthodox texts.

M.
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