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Author Topic: A question on the Immaculate Conception  (Read 98249 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: May 04, 2010, 09:30:14 AM »

ORTHODOXY AND THE DOCTRINE OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE THEOTOKOS—UNIQUE TO THE MODERN ROMAN CHURCH OR ANCIENT EASTERN TRADITION?

Dave Brown

Has Eastern Orthodoxy always opposed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos, the Mother of God? She is praised in the Megalynarion hymn in the Divine Liturgy and in Vespers and Matins showing the pre-eminence of Mary among the saints:

It is truly right to bless you, O Theotokos, ever-blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cheribum, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, without defilement you gave birth to God the Word: True Theotokos, we magnify you.

How is the Theotokos "most pure"? Most Orthodox would say that she was without sin at the Annunciation, but would disagree that the Virgin Mary was conceived immaculate by St. Anne. Fr. Peter E. Gillquist comments in "Becoming Orthodox":

However, the Immaculate Conception of Mary is a doctrine unknown in the ancient Church and unique to the modern Roman Church. He later refers to the Roman Church with its questionable late dogmatic additions concerning Mary. (pp. 119, 122)

Fr. Casimir Kucharek in his magnus opus "The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" (1971; Alleluia Press, pp. 355-357) marshals the evidence that the early Eastern Church did believe in and commemorate the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos:

Also, from end to end of the Byzantine world, both Catholic and Orthodox greet the Mother of God as "archrantos", "the immaculate, spotless one," no less than eight times in the Divine Liturgy alone. But especially on the feast of her conception (December 9 in the Byzantine Church) is her immaculateness stressed: "This day, O faithful, from saintly parents begins to take being the spotless lamb, the most pure tabernacle, Mary..."; "She is conceived...the only immaculate one"; "or "Having conceived the most pure dove, Anne filled...." [References: From the Office of Matins, the Third Ode of the Canon for the feast; From the Office of Matins, the Stanzas during the Seating, for the same feast; From the Office of Matins, the Sixth Ode of the Canon for the same feast.]

Fr. Kucharek continues:

No sin, no fault, not even the slightest, ever marred the perfect sanctity of this masterpiece of God's creation. For hundred of years, the Byzantine Church has believed this, prayed and honored Mary in this way. Centuries of sacred tradition stand behind this title. [The very vastness of available testimony precludes listing. Two excellent surveys may be consulted: A. Ballerini, "Sylloge monumentorum ad mysterium conceptionis immaculatae virginis deiparae spectantium" (Rome, 1854-1855), and C. Passaglia, "De immaculato deiparae semper virginis conceptu commentarius" (Rome, 1854 -1855).] Even during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, when some Western theologians doubted or denied the truth of her immaculate conception, Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox theologians unanimously taught it.

In support of this statement, Fr. Kucharek cites these references in a footnote on pp. 355-356:

Among the better known ninth to thirteenth century Byzantine theologians: Patriarch Photius in his homilies "De Annuntiatione" and "De Nativitate Deiparae" (S. Aristarchis, "Photiou logoi kai homiliai", Vol. II [Constantinople, 1900], pp. 230-245, 368-380); George of Nicomedia in his homilies (PG 100, 1336-1504), especially "Conceptione deiparae" and "Praesentatione Mariae virginis"; Michael Psellos in the recently discovered and edited homily "De Annuntiatione" (PO 16, pp. 517-525); John Phurnensis, "Oratione de Dormitione" (G. Palamas, "Theophanous tou kerameos homiliai", [Jerusalem, 1860], append., pp. 271-276); Michael Glykas, "Annales", III (PG 158, 439-442); Germanus II, Patriarch of Constantinople, "In annuntiationem" (edit. Ballerini, op. cit., Vol. II, pp. 283-382); Theognostos the Monk, "In dormitionem" (PO 16, pp. 457-562); Nicetas David, "In nativitatem B.M.V." (PG 105, 16-28); Leo the Wise, "In dormitionem" and "In praesentationeum" (PG 107, 12-21); Patriarch Euthymius of Constantinople, "In Conceptionem Annae" (PO 16, pp. 499-505); Bishop Peter Argorum, "In conceptionem B. Annae"(PG 104, 1352-1365); John Mauropos, "In dormitionem" (PG 120, 1075-1114); James the Monk, "In nativitatem et in praesentationem B.M.V." (PO 16, pp. 528-538). Cf. Jugie, "L'immaculee Conception dans l'Ecriture Sainte et dans la tradition orientale [Rome, 1952], pp. 164-307, for others.

Fr. Kucharek notes that Eastern theologians took St. Thomas Aquinas to task on this issue. (Aquinas did not believe in the Immaculate Conception):

Two of Thomas Aquinas' most ardent disciples among the Greeks disagreed with him on one point only, his failure to admit the immaculate conception of the Mother of God. Demetrios Kydonios (fourteenth century) translated some of Aquinas' works into Greek, but vehemently opposed Thomas' views on the immaculate conception. [Demetrios Kydonios, "Hom. in annuntiationem deiparae", contained in "Cod. Paris gr.", 1213 (cf. Jugie, op cit., pp. 276-279.] No less did the other great Thomist, Georgios Scholarios (fifteenth century), in his synopsis of the immaculate conception. [Georgios Scholarios, "In dormitionem" (PO 16, p. 577); cf. Petit-Siderides-Jugie; "Oeuvres completes de Georges Scholarios", Vol. 1 [Paris, 1928], pp. 202-203; also Petit-Sisderides-Jugie, op. cit., I, p. 501; also Jugie, "Georges Scholarios et l'Immaculee Conception", Echos d'Orient (Paris-Istanbul, 17 [1915], pp. 527-530.]

How did Orthodoxy come to reject the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos? Fr. Kucharek concludes:

The Greek Orthodox Church's belief in the immaculate conception continued unanimously until the fifteenth century, then many Greek theologians began to adopt the idea that Mary had been made immaculate at the moment of the Annunciation. [Nicholas Callixtus, however, expressed doubt during the fourteenth century (cf. Jugie "L'Immaculee Conception dans l'Ecriture Sainte et dans la tradition orientale", p. 2130, but the great Cabasilas' (1371) teaching on the immaculate conception ("In nativitatem" [PO 19, pp. 468-482]; "In dormitionem" [PO 19, pp. 498-504]) still had great influence in the subsequent centuries. Perhaps even more influential was Patriarch Gregory Palamas (1446-1452) whose homilies on the Mother of God are second to none even today ("De hypapante"; "De annuntiatione"; "De dormitione" [PG 151]; also "In Christi genealogiam" and "In praesentationem" [edit. K. Sophocles, "Tou en hagiois patros emon Gregoriou tou Palama homiliai", Athens, 1861]). Among the Eastern Slavs, belief in the immaculate conception went undisturbed until the seventeenth century, when the Skrizhal (Book of Laws) appeared in Russia, and proposed what the Slavs considered the "novel" doctrine of the Greeks. The views proposed in the Skrizhal were branded as blasphemous, especially among the "Staroviery" (Old Believers), who maintained the ancient customs and beliefs, however small or inconsequential. [Cf. N. Subbotin, "Materialy dlja istorii Roskola", Vol. IV (Moscow, 1878), pp. 39-50, 229, and Vol. 1 (Moscow, 1874), p. 457.] This reaction confirms the ancient Byzantine and Slav tradition of the immaculate conception. Only after Pope Pius IX defined the dogma in 1854 did opposition to the doctrine solidify among most Orthodox theologians. The Orthodox Church, however, has never made any definitive pronouncement on the matter. When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.
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« Reply #181 on: May 04, 2010, 09:35:49 AM »


I am not surprised nor am I deterred by your rejection of me .

I would be pretty sure that nobody has rejected you.,  I think that most of us would admire your feistiness and many of us will have lit a candle or two for your coming into the Orthodox Church.  

Quote
or the teaching of my Church


Now this is a sore point with me.  We have not in fact heard the teaching of your Church - of the Eastern Catholic Church. Instead we have been treated to things which the most devoted Roman Catholic and scholastic would argue  Pshaw, Mary!

I see that I have to modify this with a small addendum.  At Least Kucharek is a nod in the direction of Eastern Catholicism.   Wink
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 09:38:50 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Mickey
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« Reply #182 on: May 04, 2010, 09:40:19 AM »

I am not surprised nor am I deterred by your rejection of me or the teaching of my Church.

I see no rejection of you.  You are becoming progressively combative and seemingly desparate to prove your opinions.

Do we reject the teaching of the IC? Yes.  It is one of many innovations that has led to Rome's schism from Holy Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #183 on: May 04, 2010, 09:43:03 AM »


Do we reject the teaching of the IC? Yes. 
That's interesting because your Liturgy supports it.  Grin
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« Reply #184 on: May 04, 2010, 09:45:02 AM »

I am fine thanks, Mickey.  Not to worry.  I've been through this many times, and each time I find something new to me.  This one is compliments of the Irish Hermit.  Apparently there's still some disagreement among Orthodox faithful and churches:

+++++++++++++++++++++

Irish Hermit:
Quote from: Alveus Lacuna on October 05, 2009, 03:39:13 PM

A friend of mine at my Eastern Orthodox parish told me that the Ethiopian Church believes in the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God.  Is this correct?


Bishop Matthias in the United States took action against an Ethiopian priest who rejected the Immaculate Conception.  The parishioners have appealed to Pope Shenouda of the Coptic Church.  Pope Shenouda rejected the Immaculate Conception in his book on the Holy Mother of God
 
Extract from letter to Pope Shenouda
Source :: http://www.medhanialemeotcks.org/pdf/Letter_to_HH%20Shenouda.pdf

As you may recall from our letter and documents that we sent your Holiness about
four years ago, our church in the State of Kansas suffered a crisis due to the Roman
Catholic Immaculate Conception Doctrinal issue. Hoping to resolve the issue and also
to affirm the true teachings of our holy Fathers, we sought the help of His Grace
Archbishop Matthias who was at the time the representative of the Ethiopian
Orthodox Tewahido Church Diocese of North America. However, to our dismay and
surprise, he declared "the Immaculate Conception teaching" of the Roman Catholic
Church as an Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Doctrine. Adding insult to injury, he
banned our priest, Father Asteraye Tsige from the church for rejecting the Immaculate
Conception teachings and for defending the true Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Orthodox
faith that you your Holiness affirmed in your Book:

Name of the book: The Holy Virgin St. Mary
Author: His Holiness Pope Shenouda ill
Editor: Orthodox Coptic Clerical College, Cairo
Edition: 1999
Press: Amba Rueiss, (Offset)
Deposition number at "The Library": 9173/96

"THE HOLY VIRGIN MARY IN THE CHURCH'S FAITH"

The Orthodox Coptic Church honors our Lady The Virgin with due
honor without exaggeration, and without lessening ofherposition. <snip>

The sanctifying by the Holy Spirit of her depository, makes the
One born of her, be conceived without the impurity of the original sin. As
for The Virgin herself, her mother conceived, like all people, and so The
Virgin said in her hymn: "my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior"
(Luke 1:47). That is why the Church does not agree that The Virgin was
conceived without the impurity of the original sin, as our brothers the
Catholics believe.
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« Reply #185 on: May 04, 2010, 09:48:38 AM »

ORTHODOXY AND THE DOCTRINE OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE THEOTOKOS—UNIQUE TO THE MODERN ROMAN CHURCH OR ANCIENT EASTERN TRADITION?

Dave Brown

Fr. Casimir Kucharek in his magnus opus "The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" (1971; Alleluia Press, pp. 355-357) marshals the evidence that the early Eastern Church did believe in and commemorate the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos:

Never ever ever trust any Catholic apologist who is clueless about Latin.  Try "magnum opus."   As Mary has stressed it is impossible to accurately understand Catholic teaching unless it is read and studied in the original Latin texts..... and very obviously poor Dave would not be able to do that!.
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« Reply #186 on: May 04, 2010, 09:51:55 AM »

ORTHODOXY AND THE DOCTRINE OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE THEOTOKOS—UNIQUE TO THE MODERN ROMAN CHURCH OR ANCIENT EASTERN TRADITION?

Dave Brown

Fr. Casimir Kucharek in his magnus opus "The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" (1971; Alleluia Press, pp. 355-357) marshals the evidence that the early Eastern Church did believe in and commemorate the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos:

Never ever ever trust any Catholic apologist who is clueless about Latin.  Try "magnum opus."   As Mary has stressed it is impossible to accurately understand Catholic teaching unless it is read and studied in the original Latin texts..... and very obviously poor Dave would not be able to do that!.

The Great Irish Dissembler

That's right Father....

Duck!!...don't....Deal!!
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #187 on: May 04, 2010, 09:53:33 AM »

I believe the Oriental Orthodox Churches abandoned their submission to the Pope of Rome in the 5th century.

I am fine thanks, Mickey.  Not to worry.  I've been through this many times, and each time I find something new to me.  This one is compliments of the Irish Hermit.  Apparently there's still some disagreement among Orthodox faithful and churches:

+++++++++++++++++++++

Irish Hermit:
Quote from: Alveus Lacuna on October 05, 2009, 03:39:13 PM

A friend of mine at my Eastern Orthodox parish told me that the Ethiopian Church believes in the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God.  Is this correct?


Bishop Matthias in the United States took action against an Ethiopian priest who rejected the Immaculate Conception.  The parishioners have appealed to Pope Shenouda of the Coptic Church.  Pope Shenouda rejected the Immaculate Conception in his book on the Holy Mother of God
 
Extract from letter to Pope Shenouda
Source :: http://www.medhanialemeotcks.org/pdf/Letter_to_HH%20Shenouda.pdf

As you may recall from our letter and documents that we sent your Holiness about
four years ago, our church in the State of Kansas suffered a crisis due to the Roman
Catholic Immaculate Conception Doctrinal issue. Hoping to resolve the issue and also
to affirm the true teachings of our holy Fathers, we sought the help of His Grace
Archbishop Matthias who was at the time the representative of the Ethiopian
Orthodox Tewahido Church Diocese of North America. However, to our dismay and
surprise, he declared "the Immaculate Conception teaching" of the Roman Catholic
Church as an Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Doctrine. Adding insult to injury, he
banned our priest, Father Asteraye Tsige from the church for rejecting the Immaculate
Conception teachings and for defending the true Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Orthodox
faith that you your Holiness affirmed in your Book:

Name of the book: The Holy Virgin St. Mary
Author: His Holiness Pope Shenouda ill
Editor: Orthodox Coptic Clerical College, Cairo
Edition: 1999
Press: Amba Rueiss, (Offset)
Deposition number at "The Library": 9173/96

"THE HOLY VIRGIN MARY IN THE CHURCH'S FAITH"

The Orthodox Coptic Church honors our Lady The Virgin with due
honor without exaggeration, and without lessening ofherposition. <snip>

The sanctifying by the Holy Spirit of her depository, makes the
One born of her, be conceived without the impurity of the original sin. As
for The Virgin herself, her mother conceived, like all people, and so The
Virgin said in her hymn: "my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior"
(Luke 1:47). That is why the Church does not agree that The Virgin was
conceived without the impurity of the original sin, as our brothers the
Catholics believe.
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« Reply #188 on: May 04, 2010, 09:56:27 AM »

ORTHODOXY AND THE DOCTRINE OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE THEOTOKOS—UNIQUE TO THE MODERN ROMAN CHURCH OR ANCIENT EASTERN TRADITION?

Dave Brown

Fr. Casimir Kucharek in his magnus opus "The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" (1971; Alleluia Press, pp. 355-357) marshals the evidence that the early Eastern Church did believe in and commemorate the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos:

Never ever ever trust any Catholic apologist who is clueless about Latin.  Try "magnum opus."   As Mary has stressed it is impossible to accurately understand Catholic teaching unless it is read and studied in the original Latin texts..... and very obviously poor Dave would not be able to do that!.

The Great Irish Dissembler

That's right Father....

Duck!!...don't....Deal!!

I would say that is exactly what you did when you replied to my information of what Thomas Aquinas wrote on the IC by bringing in quite extraneous matter and lashing out at me!
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« Reply #189 on: May 04, 2010, 10:00:05 AM »

I believe the Oriental Orthodox Churches abandoned their submission to the Pope of Rome in the 5th century.

 Smiley ...inveterate dissembler.

There is and has been, however annoying, more than one mind on the Imaculata among the Eastern Churches, Greek, Slav and other.   Recorded for posterity.   To the credit of those who believe, I think.

Mary
 elijahmaria,

You are hereby placed on a 14 day warning for repeated ad hominems against poster IrishHermit.  You know better than to continually call someone an habitual liar and declare that you know the intent behind another poster's comments.  If you feel this warning is given in error, please PM Fr. George or Fr. Chris.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #190 on: May 04, 2010, 10:01:01 AM »

ORTHODOXY AND THE DOCTRINE OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE THEOTOKOS—UNIQUE TO THE MODERN ROMAN CHURCH OR ANCIENT EASTERN TRADITION?

Dave Brown

Fr. Casimir Kucharek in his magnus opus "The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" (1971; Alleluia Press, pp. 355-357) marshals the evidence that the early Eastern Church did believe in and commemorate the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos:

Never ever ever trust any Catholic apologist who is clueless about Latin.  Try "magnum opus."   As Mary has stressed it is impossible to accurately understand Catholic teaching unless it is read and studied in the original Latin texts..... and very obviously poor Dave would not be able to do that!.

The Great Irish Dissembler

That's right Father....

Duck!!...don't....Deal!!

I would say that is exactly what you did when you replied to my information of what Thomas Aquinas wrote on the IC by bringing in quite extraneous matter and lashing out at me!

Oh not at all Father.

I deal with the whole truth.  Not just bits and pieces of it.  Remember....I AM Catholic.

Mary
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« Reply #191 on: May 04, 2010, 10:06:45 AM »


Do we reject the teaching of the IC? Yes. 
That's interesting because your Liturgy supports it.  Grin
Only in the clouded mind mired by the heresies of the Vatican.

Generations of Orthodox Catholics have called her Panagia, and without stain, and without a hint of believing in the IC.  We continue to do so.

We know when this heresy rasied its ugly head (10th cent.) and where (England), as contempories condemned it at its appearance.
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« Reply #192 on: May 04, 2010, 10:10:42 AM »


There is and has been, however annoying, more than one mind on the Imaculata among the Eastern Churches, Greek, Slav and other.   Recorded for posterity.   To the credit of those who believe, I think.

The Immaculatus

Is the Catholic Church united on the teaching of the Immaculatus, Saint Joseph, as it was revealed to Sister Mildred Mary Neuzil by the Virgin Mary?

http://www.catholicplanet.com/RCC/joseph-never-sinned.htm
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« Reply #193 on: May 04, 2010, 10:15:14 AM »

ORTHODOXY AND THE DOCTRINE OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE THEOTOKOS—UNIQUE TO THE MODERN ROMAN CHURCH OR ANCIENT EASTERN TRADITION?

Dave Brown

Has Eastern Orthodoxy always opposed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos, the Mother of God? She is praised in the Megalynarion hymn in the Divine Liturgy and in Vespers and Matins showing the pre-eminence of Mary among the saints:

It is truly right to bless you, O Theotokos, ever-blessed and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cheribum, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim, without defilement you gave birth to God the Word: True Theotokos, we magnify you.

How is the Theotokos "most pure"? Most Orthodox would say that she was without sin at the Annunciation, but would disagree that the Virgin Mary was conceived immaculate by St. Anne. Fr. Peter E. Gillquist comments in "Becoming Orthodox":

However, the Immaculate Conception of Mary is a doctrine unknown in the ancient Church and unique to the modern Roman Church. He later refers to the Roman Church with its questionable late dogmatic additions concerning Mary. (pp. 119, 122)

Fr. Casimir Kucharek in his magnus opus "The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" (1971; Alleluia Press, pp. 355-357) marshals the evidence that the early Eastern Church did believe in and commemorate the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos:

Also, from end to end of the Byzantine world, both Catholic and Orthodox greet the Mother of God as "archrantos", "the immaculate, spotless one," no less than eight times in the Divine Liturgy alone. But especially on the feast of her conception (December 9 in the Byzantine Church) is her immaculateness stressed: "This day, O faithful, from saintly parents begins to take being the spotless lamb, the most pure tabernacle, Mary..."; "She is conceived...the only immaculate one"; "or "Having conceived the most pure dove, Anne filled...." [References: From the Office of Matins, the Third Ode of the Canon for the feast; From the Office of Matins, the Stanzas during the Seating, for the same feast; From the Office of Matins, the Sixth Ode of the Canon for the same feast.]

Fr. Kucharek continues:

No sin, no fault, not even the slightest, ever marred the perfect sanctity of this masterpiece of God's creation. For hundred of years, the Byzantine Church has believed this, prayed and honored Mary in this way. Centuries of sacred tradition stand behind this title. [The very vastness of available testimony precludes listing. Two excellent surveys may be consulted: A. Ballerini, "Sylloge monumentorum ad mysterium conceptionis immaculatae virginis deiparae spectantium" (Rome, 1854-1855), and C. Passaglia, "De immaculato deiparae semper virginis conceptu commentarius" (Rome, 1854 -1855).] Even during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, when some Western theologians doubted or denied the truth of her immaculate conception, Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox theologians unanimously taught it.

In support of this statement, Fr. Kucharek cites these references in a footnote on pp. 355-356:

Among the better known ninth to thirteenth century Byzantine theologians: Patriarch Photius in his homilies "De Annuntiatione" and "De Nativitate Deiparae" (S. Aristarchis, "Photiou logoi kai homiliai", Vol. II [Constantinople, 1900], pp. 230-245, 368-380); George of Nicomedia in his homilies (PG 100, 1336-1504), especially "Conceptione deiparae" and "Praesentatione Mariae virginis"; Michael Psellos in the recently discovered and edited homily "De Annuntiatione" (PO 16, pp. 517-525); John Phurnensis, "Oratione de Dormitione" (G. Palamas, "Theophanous tou kerameos homiliai", [Jerusalem, 1860], append., pp. 271-276); Michael Glykas, "Annales", III (PG 158, 439-442); Germanus II, Patriarch of Constantinople, "In annuntiationem" (edit. Ballerini, op. cit., Vol. II, pp. 283-382); Theognostos the Monk, "In dormitionem" (PO 16, pp. 457-562); Nicetas David, "In nativitatem B.M.V." (PG 105, 16-28); Leo the Wise, "In dormitionem" and "In praesentationeum" (PG 107, 12-21); Patriarch Euthymius of Constantinople, "In Conceptionem Annae" (PO 16, pp. 499-505); Bishop Peter Argorum, "In conceptionem B. Annae"(PG 104, 1352-1365); John Mauropos, "In dormitionem" (PG 120, 1075-1114); James the Monk, "In nativitatem et in praesentationem B.M.V." (PO 16, pp. 528-538). Cf. Jugie, "L'immaculee Conception dans l'Ecriture Sainte et dans la tradition orientale [Rome, 1952], pp. 164-307, for others.

Fr. Kucharek notes that Eastern theologians took St. Thomas Aquinas to task on this issue. (Aquinas did not believe in the Immaculate Conception):

Two of Thomas Aquinas' most ardent disciples among the Greeks disagreed with him on one point only, his failure to admit the immaculate conception of the Mother of God. Demetrios Kydonios (fourteenth century) translated some of Aquinas' works into Greek, but vehemently opposed Thomas' views on the immaculate conception. [Demetrios Kydonios, "Hom. in annuntiationem deiparae", contained in "Cod. Paris gr.", 1213 (cf. Jugie, op cit., pp. 276-279.] No less did the other great Thomist, Georgios Scholarios (fifteenth century), in his synopsis of the immaculate conception. [Georgios Scholarios, "In dormitionem" (PO 16, p. 577); cf. Petit-Siderides-Jugie; "Oeuvres completes de Georges Scholarios", Vol. 1 [Paris, 1928], pp. 202-203; also Petit-Sisderides-Jugie, op. cit., I, p. 501; also Jugie, "Georges Scholarios et l'Immaculee Conception", Echos d'Orient (Paris-Istanbul, 17 [1915], pp. 527-530.]

How did Orthodoxy come to reject the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos? Fr. Kucharek concludes:

The Greek Orthodox Church's belief in the immaculate conception continued unanimously until the fifteenth century, then many Greek theologians began to adopt the idea that Mary had been made immaculate at the moment of the Annunciation. [Nicholas Callixtus, however, expressed doubt during the fourteenth century (cf. Jugie "L'Immaculee Conception dans l'Ecriture Sainte et dans la tradition orientale", p. 2130, but the great Cabasilas' (1371) teaching on the immaculate conception ("In nativitatem" [PO 19, pp. 468-482]; "In dormitionem" [PO 19, pp. 498-504]) still had great influence in the subsequent centuries. Perhaps even more influential was Patriarch Gregory Palamas (1446-1452) whose homilies on the Mother of God are second to none even today ("De hypapante"; "De annuntiatione"; "De dormitione" [PG 151]; also "In Christi genealogiam" and "In praesentationem" [edit. K. Sophocles, "Tou en hagiois patros emon Gregoriou tou Palama homiliai", Athens, 1861]). Among the Eastern Slavs, belief in the immaculate conception went undisturbed until the seventeenth century, when the Skrizhal (Book of Laws) appeared in Russia, and proposed what the Slavs considered the "novel" doctrine of the Greeks. The views proposed in the Skrizhal were branded as blasphemous, especially among the "Staroviery" (Old Believers), who maintained the ancient customs and beliefs, however small or inconsequential. [Cf. N. Subbotin, "Materialy dlja istorii Roskola", Vol. IV (Moscow, 1878), pp. 39-50, 229, and Vol. 1 (Moscow, 1874), p. 457.] This reaction confirms the ancient Byzantine and Slav tradition of the immaculate conception. Only after Pope Pius IX defined the dogma in 1854 did opposition to the doctrine solidify among most Orthodox theologians. The Orthodox Church, however, has never made any definitive pronouncement on the matter. When Patriarch Anthimos VII, for example, wrote his reply to Pope Leo XIII's letter in 1895, and listed what he believed to be the errors of the Latins, he found no fault with their belief in the immaculate conception, but objected to the fact that the Pope had defined it.

ORTHODOXY AND THE DOCTRINE OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE THEOTOKOS—UNIQUE TO THE MODERN ROMAN CHURCH OR ANCIENT EASTERN TRADITION?

Dave Brown

Fr. Casimir Kucharek in his magnus opus "The Byzantine-Slav Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom" (1971; Alleluia Press, pp. 355-357) marshals the evidence that the early Eastern Church did believe in and commemorate the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos:

Never ever ever trust any Catholic apologist who is clueless about Latin.  Try "magnum opus."   As Mary has stressed it is impossible to accurately understand Catholic teaching unless it is read and studied in the original Latin texts..... and very obviously poor Dave would not be able to do that!.

The Great Irish Dissembler

That's right Father....

Duck!!...don't....Deal!!

I would say that is exactly what you did when you replied to my information of what Thomas Aquinas wrote on the IC by bringing in quite extraneous matter and lashing out at me!

Oh not at all Father.

I deal with the whole truth.  Not just bits and pieces of it.  Remember....I AM Catholic.

Mary
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« Reply #194 on: May 04, 2010, 10:18:19 AM »

I am fine thanks, Mickey.  Not to worry.  I've been through this many times, and each time I find something new to me.  This one is compliments of the Irish Hermit.  Apparently there's still some disagreement among Orthodox faithful and churches:

+++++++++++++++++++++

Irish Hermit:
Quote from: Alveus Lacuna on October 05, 2009, 03:39:13 PM

A friend of mine at my Eastern Orthodox parish

 Huh

Quote
told me that the Ethiopian Church believes in the Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God.  Is this correct?

No, as you provide the answer to that below.


Quote
Bishop Matthias in the United States took action against an Ethiopian priest who rejected the Immaculate Conception.  The parishioners have appealed to Pope Shenouda of the Coptic Church.  Pope Shenouda rejected the Immaculate Conception in his book on the Holy Mother of God
 
Extract from letter to Pope Shenouda
Source :: http://www.medhanialemeotcks.org/pdf/Letter_to_HH%20Shenouda.pdf

As you may recall from our letter and documents that we sent your Holiness about
four years ago, our church in the State of Kansas suffered a crisis due to the Roman
Catholic Immaculate Conception Doctrinal issue. Hoping to resolve the issue and also
to affirm the true teachings of our holy Fathers, we sought the help of His Grace
Archbishop Matthias who was at the time the representative of the Ethiopian
Orthodox Tewahido Church Diocese of North America. However, to our dismay and
surprise, he declared "the Immaculate Conception teaching" of the Roman Catholic
Church as an Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahido Doctrine. Adding insult to injury, he
banned our priest, Father Asteraye Tsige from the church for rejecting the Immaculate
Conception teachings and for defending the true Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Orthodox
faith that you your Holiness affirmed in your Book:

Name of the book: The Holy Virgin St. Mary
Author: His Holiness Pope Shenouda ill
Editor: Orthodox Coptic Clerical College, Cairo
Edition: 1999
Press: Amba Rueiss, (Offset)
Deposition number at "The Library": 9173/96

"THE HOLY VIRGIN MARY IN THE CHURCH'S FAITH"

The Orthodox Coptic Church honors our Lady The Virgin with due
honor without exaggeration, and without lessening ofherposition. <snip>

The sanctifying by the Holy Spirit of her depository, makes the
One born of her, be conceived without the impurity of the original sin. As
for The Virgin herself, her mother conceived, like all people, and so The
Virgin said in her hymn: "my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior"
(Luke 1:47). That is why the Church does not agree that The Virgin was
conceived without the impurity of the original sin, as our brothers the
Catholics believe.
Mardukm, are you listening?

Mickey, maybe you can inform Mardukm at CAF.
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« Reply #195 on: May 04, 2010, 10:29:25 AM »

Generations of Orthodox Catholics have called her Panagia, and without stain, and without a hint of believing in the IC.  We continue to do so.

With great love and veneration!  Smiley
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« Reply #196 on: May 04, 2010, 10:29:46 AM »

Well it is always interesting to watch some Orthodox react to any suggestion that the teaching of the Immaculate Conception is true.

I take the time to argue in favor of it because I actually believe it to be true and it helps to pull together so many other teachings concerning sanctifying grace and kenosis and theosis that I think it is worth the effort and one never knows who is listening and how they might be moved.

All I can say to the rest is that I appreciate your understandings and trust that the Most Holy Mother of God is watching over all of us.

Thanks for the fun!

Mary

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« Reply #197 on: May 04, 2010, 10:30:48 AM »

Mickey, maybe you can inform Mardukm at CAF.

I believe he may be on one of his sabbaticals.
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« Reply #198 on: May 04, 2010, 10:39:27 AM »

...it helps to pull together so many other teachings concerning sanctifying grace and kenosis and theosis...

 Huh
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« Reply #199 on: May 04, 2010, 10:40:41 AM »

...it helps to pull together so many other teachings concerning sanctifying grace and kenosis and theosis...

 Huh

When you refuse to see, you will just not see.
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« Reply #200 on: May 04, 2010, 10:52:58 AM »

Christ is Risen!

You know what I would like to see.....

1.  Mary says she knows a large number of Orthodox who accept the Immaculate Conception.  It would be great if one or more of them came on the Forum and explained their belief.

2.  It would also be nice if we had some Eastern Catholics here to explain their belief on the IC.  The ones whom I know, in the Ukrainian Church as is Mary, refuse to countenance the Immaculate Conception.
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« Reply #201 on: May 04, 2010, 11:08:41 AM »

Christ is Risen!

You know what I would like to see.....

1.  Mary says she knows a large number of Orthodox who accept the Immaculate Conception.  It would be great if one or more of them came on the Forum and explained their belief.

2.  It would also be nice if we had some Eastern Catholics here to explain their belief on the IC.  The ones whom I know, in the Ukrainian Church as is Mary, refuse to countenance the Immaculate Conception.

Yes. That would be helpful. I also knew some Ruthenian Catholics who did not accept the IC.  Perhaps they will chime in.
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« Reply #202 on: May 04, 2010, 01:03:02 PM »

Christ is Risen!

You know what I would like to see.....

1.  Mary says she knows a large number of Orthodox who accept the Immaculate Conception.  It would be great if one or more of them came on the Forum and explained their belief.

2.  It would also be nice if we had some Eastern Catholics here to explain their belief on the IC.  The ones whom I know, in the Ukrainian Church as is Mary, refuse to countenance the Immaculate Conception.

Yes. That would be helpful. I also knew some Ruthenian Catholics who did not accept the IC.  Perhaps they will chime in.
If they do not accept the IC, or at least see it as a valid expression of the Catholic Faith, then they are Catholic in name only.
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« Reply #203 on: May 04, 2010, 01:03:48 PM »

Christ is Risen!

You know what I would like to see.....

1.  Mary says she knows a large number of Orthodox who accept the Immaculate Conception.  It would be great if one or more of them came on the Forum and explained their belief.

2.  It would also be nice if we had some Eastern Catholics here to explain their belief on the IC.  The ones whom I know, in the Ukrainian Church as is Mary, refuse to countenance the Immaculate Conception.

Yes. That would be helpful. I also knew some Ruthenian Catholics who did not accept the IC.  Perhaps they will chime in.

Before I started seriously looking at Orthodoxy. My Maronite Catholic priest told me flat out that he did not believe the Immaculate Conception. In fact his Masters Thesis was on why the Immaculate Conception is incompatible with Syriac Christianity (which he did in front of the Oblates of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C.!). He got his Masters, but they were so impressed that they recommended him to go to Rome for doctoral studies to his bishop. He's finishing up his doctorate at this time.

This same priest told me that he got in trouble in seminary on a number of occasions for calling the belief "the Immaculate Deception." When I went to his church for the feast day when I was Catholic, in his homily he made it clear that it is not a part of their (Maronite) tradition.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #204 on: May 04, 2010, 01:05:54 PM »

Christ is Risen!

You know what I would like to see.....

1.  Mary says she knows a large number of Orthodox who accept the Immaculate Conception.  It would be great if one or more of them came on the Forum and explained their belief.

2.  It would also be nice if we had some Eastern Catholics here to explain their belief on the IC.  The ones whom I know, in the Ukrainian Church as is Mary, refuse to countenance the Immaculate Conception.

Yes. That would be helpful. I also knew some Ruthenian Catholics who did not accept the IC.  Perhaps they will chime in.

Before I started seriously looking at Orthodoxy. My Maronite Catholic priest told me flat out that he did not believe the Immaculate Conception. In fact his Masters Thesis was on why the Immaculate Conception is incompatible with Syriac Christianity (which he did in front of the Oblates of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C.!). He got his Masters, but they were so impressed that they recommended him to go to Rome for doctoral studies to his bishop. He's finishing up his doctorate at this time.

This same priest told me that he got in trouble in seminary on a number of occasions for calling the belief "the Immaculate Deception." When I went to his church for the feast day when I was Catholic, in his homily he made it clear that it is not a part of their (Maronite) tradition.

In Christ,
Andrew
Its always amazing to me that ECs like the one described above will stay in the Catholic Communion.
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« Reply #205 on: May 04, 2010, 01:39:52 PM »

Well it is always interesting to watch some Orthodox react to any suggestion that the teaching of the Immaculate Conception is true.

I take the time to argue in favor of it because I actually believe it to be true and it helps to pull together so many other teachings concerning sanctifying grace and kenosis and theosis

Kenosis I know, and theosis I know, but "sanctifying grace" I've come across only in Vatican forensics.

Quote
that I think it is worth the effort and one never knows who is listening and how they might be moved.

All I can say to the rest is that I appreciate your understandings and trust that the Most Holy Mother of God is watching over all of us.

Thanks for the fun!

Mary



You should get in touch with Mardukm.
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« Reply #206 on: May 04, 2010, 01:43:57 PM »

Christ is Risen!

You know what I would like to see.....

1.  Mary says she knows a large number of Orthodox who accept the Immaculate Conception.  It would be great if one or more of them came on the Forum and explained their belief.

2.  It would also be nice if we had some Eastern Catholics here to explain their belief on the IC.  The ones whom I know, in the Ukrainian Church as is Mary, refuse to countenance the Immaculate Conception.

Yes. That would be helpful. I also knew some Ruthenian Catholics who did not accept the IC.  Perhaps they will chime in.

Before I started seriously looking at Orthodoxy. My Maronite Catholic priest told me flat out that he did not believe the Immaculate Conception. In fact his Masters Thesis was on why the Immaculate Conception is incompatible with Syriac Christianity (which he did in front of the Oblates of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C.!). He got his Masters, but they were so impressed that they recommended him to go to Rome for doctoral studies to his bishop. He's finishing up his doctorate at this time.

This same priest told me that he got in trouble in seminary on a number of occasions for calling the belief "the Immaculate Deception." When I went to his church for the feast day when I was Catholic, in his homily he made it clear that it is not a part of their (Maronite) tradition.

In Christ,
Andrew
Its always amazing to me that ECs like the one described above will stay in the Catholic Communion.

You're not the only one. As much as I loved him as a priest, I could not wrap myself around this kind of hypocrisy and theological dishonesty. I had to choose.

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #207 on: May 04, 2010, 01:54:48 PM »

Christ is Risen!

You know what I would like to see.....

1.  Mary says she knows a large number of Orthodox who accept the Immaculate Conception.  It would be great if one or more of them came on the Forum and explained their belief.

2.  It would also be nice if we had some Eastern Catholics here to explain their belief on the IC.  The ones whom I know, in the Ukrainian Church as is Mary, refuse to countenance the Immaculate Conception.

Yes. That would be helpful. I also knew some Ruthenian Catholics who did not accept the IC.  Perhaps they will chime in.

Before I started seriously looking at Orthodoxy. My Maronite Catholic priest told me flat out that he did not believe the Immaculate Conception. In fact his Masters Thesis was on why the Immaculate Conception is incompatible with Syriac Christianity (which he did in front of the Oblates of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C.!). He got his Masters, but they were so impressed that they recommended him to go to Rome for doctoral studies to his bishop. He's finishing up his doctorate at this time.

This same priest told me that he got in trouble in seminary on a number of occasions for calling the belief "the Immaculate Deception." When I went to his church for the feast day when I was Catholic, in his homily he made it clear that it is not a part of their (Maronite) tradition.

In Christ,
Andrew
Its always amazing to me that ECs like the one described above will stay in the Catholic Communion.

You're not the only one. As much as I loved him as a priest, I could not wrap myself around this kind of hypocrisy and theological dishonesty. I had to choose.

In Christ,
Andrew
I have much more respect for a person who ceases to believe in Catholic dogma and becomes an Eastern Orthodox Christian, such as yourself, than I do for an Eastern Catholic who rejects Catholic dogma yet remains in the Catholic Communion.
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« Reply #208 on: May 04, 2010, 02:04:06 PM »

Christ is Risen!

You know what I would like to see.....

1.  Mary says she knows a large number of Orthodox who accept the Immaculate Conception.  It would be great if one or more of them came on the Forum and explained their belief.

2.  It would also be nice if we had some Eastern Catholics here to explain their belief on the IC.  The ones whom I know, in the Ukrainian Church as is Mary, refuse to countenance the Immaculate Conception.

Yes. That would be helpful. I also knew some Ruthenian Catholics who did not accept the IC.  Perhaps they will chime in.

Before I started seriously looking at Orthodoxy. My Maronite Catholic priest told me flat out that he did not believe the Immaculate Conception. In fact his Masters Thesis was on why the Immaculate Conception is incompatible with Syriac Christianity (which he did in front of the Oblates of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C.!). He got his Masters, but they were so impressed that they recommended him to go to Rome for doctoral studies to his bishop. He's finishing up his doctorate at this time.

This same priest told me that he got in trouble in seminary on a number of occasions for calling the belief "the Immaculate Deception." When I went to his church for the feast day when I was Catholic, in his homily he made it clear that it is not a part of their (Maronite) tradition.

In Christ,
Andrew
Its always amazing to me that ECs like the one described above will stay in the Catholic Communion.

You're not the only one. As much as I loved him as a priest, I could not wrap myself around this kind of hypocrisy and theological dishonesty. I had to choose.

In Christ,
Andrew
I have much more respect for a person who ceases to believe in Catholic dogma and becomes an Eastern Orthodox Christian, such as yourself, than I do for an Eastern Catholic who rejects Catholic dogma yet remains in the Catholic Communion.

We need a whole new topic for this one actually.  I'd like to participate but not under this header.

M.
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« Reply #209 on: May 04, 2010, 02:04:48 PM »

I have much more respect for a person who ceases to believe in Catholic dogma and becomes an Eastern Orthodox Christian, such as yourself, than I do for an Eastern Catholic who rejects Catholic dogma yet remains in the Catholic Communion.

You'll have to cut the Eastern Catholics some slack. It can be a long process. Once one ceases to accept the innovations of Rome, it is usually a matter of time before they find their way home to their Orthodox roots and the fullness of truth.  Wink
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« Reply #210 on: May 04, 2010, 02:17:42 PM »

Papist...
Hope Beyond Hope! the Eastern Catholic churches, will become more Orthodox , in there dogmas ,and start, Deprogramming the Roman Catholics, that change from Latin to Eastern rite, as stepping stone, to the fullness of truth , The Holy Orthodox Church....Lord Hear Our  Prayers

From what i've read on this forum many many eastern catholic's and Roman's have recieved the true light and faith in Holy Orthodoxy ....
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« Reply #211 on: May 04, 2010, 03:00:34 PM »

Christ is Risen!

You know what I would like to see.....

1.  Mary says she knows a large number of Orthodox who accept the Immaculate Conception.  It would be great if one or more of them came on the Forum and explained their belief.

2.  It would also be nice if we had some Eastern Catholics here to explain their belief on the IC.  The ones whom I know, in the Ukrainian Church as is Mary, refuse to countenance the Immaculate Conception.

Yes. That would be helpful. I also knew some Ruthenian Catholics who did not accept the IC.  Perhaps they will chime in.

Before I started seriously looking at Orthodoxy. My Maronite Catholic priest told me flat out that he did not believe the Immaculate Conception. In fact his Masters Thesis was on why the Immaculate Conception is incompatible with Syriac Christianity (which he did in front of the Oblates of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C.!). He got his Masters, but they were so impressed that they recommended him to go to Rome for doctoral studies to his bishop. He's finishing up his doctorate at this time.

This same priest told me that he got in trouble in seminary on a number of occasions for calling the belief "the Immaculate Deception." When I went to his church for the feast day when I was Catholic, in his homily he made it clear that it is not a part of their (Maronite) tradition.

In Christ,
Andrew
Its always amazing to me that ECs like the one described above will stay in the Catholic Communion.

It should not amaze you.  There never was a requirement for the Unia to adopt the entire corpus of western doctrinal expression.  In fact it was explicitly stated that would NOT be necessary.  Roman bishops eventually betrayed all of that and embarked, with the help of the Vatican curia, on a program to Latinize the Uniate clergy and congregations at every possible turn.

What should be amazing is that the people and the clergy remained true to their part of the bargain and have remained an active part of the Catholic Church throughout the world.

They are asked to give intellectual assent to doctrine but that does not mean that they have to adopt all Catholic doctrine or their entire western expression.  Intellectual assent means what I said it means.  It means that one is asked to ponder the truth of the matter and not just dismiss it and certainly not dismiss it as heretical.

M.
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« Reply #212 on: May 04, 2010, 03:06:01 PM »

They are asked to give intellectual assent to doctrine but that does not mean that they have to adopt all Catholic doctrine or their entire western expression. 

Interesting. Can you elaborate?  Do you have any documentation showing that Eastern Catholics do not have to "adopt all Catholic doctrine"?

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« Reply #213 on: May 04, 2010, 03:08:09 PM »

I have much more respect for a person who ceases to believe in Catholic dogma and becomes an Eastern Orthodox Christian, such as yourself, than I do for an Eastern Catholic who rejects Catholic dogma yet remains in the Catholic Communion.

You'll have to cut the Eastern Catholics some slack. It can be a long process. Once one ceases to accept the innovations of Rome, it is usually a matter of time before they find their way home to their Orthodox roots and the fullness of truth.  Wink
It is along process. Once they fall from the Grace of the truth, they probably still have some emotional attachment to the Catholic Church.   Wink That being said, I still think that in the end its more honest to leave a church that professes a faith you don't believe.
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« Reply #214 on: May 04, 2010, 03:19:53 PM »

Once they fall from the Grace of the truth...

On the contrary...after one leaves innovations such as the IC and papal supremacy/infallibility in the past, he/she can enter the fullness of truth of Holy Orthodoxy---there is an abundance of grace and peace.
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« Reply #215 on: May 04, 2010, 03:22:10 PM »

Once they fall from the Grace of the truth...

On the contrary...after one leaves innovations such as the IC and papal supremacy/infallibility in the past, he/she can enter the fullness of truth of Holy Orthodoxy---there is an abundance of grace and peace.
You mean the EO innovations of rejecting Papal primascy and the IC? LOL. Ok now we are just toying with each other.
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« Reply #216 on: May 04, 2010, 03:31:35 PM »

Papal primascy

What is primascy?  Grin
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« Reply #217 on: May 04, 2010, 03:37:21 PM »

They are asked to give intellectual assent to doctrine but that does not mean that they have to adopt all Catholic doctrine or their entire western expression. 

Interesting. Can you elaborate?  Do you have any documentation showing that Eastern Catholics do not have to "adopt all Catholic doctrine"?



I'd like to see some documentation myself.  If they don't have to accept or adopt all (Roman) Catholic doctrine , then they are knowingly and willingly 'in communion with' and 'under the authority of' a chief hierach who proclaims, upholds, and preaches false doctrine?  Where does the unity within the RCC lie then?

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« Reply #218 on: May 04, 2010, 03:38:21 PM »

They are asked to give intellectual assent to doctrine but that does not mean that they have to adopt all Catholic doctrine or their entire western expression. 

Interesting. Can you elaborate?  Do you have any documentation showing that Eastern Catholics do not have to "adopt all Catholic doctrine"?



Well yes.  This is not the topic to do it but there are all of the documents from the papacy of John Paul II that call for the eastern Churches to reinvigorate their spiritual and patristic heritage.  There are the actual documents from the various unions where the eastern bishops were very clear on the terms in which they would accept the union.  They were betrayed initially but there is internal effort being made steadily and consciously to recover the patrimony of the east.

That does not mean that one can simply justify all dissent either.  

The idea that the Church has to be uniform in all things is simply not a good reflection of reality...

On the other hand an eastern Thomist is not out of the question either.

Are there limits?  Of course there are.  

There is a great deal of power in the episcopate since the Second Vatican Council.  It has been used for good and for evil.  We hope that the balance is turning.  There is evidence to that effect.

Our current pope is hampered by an extremely Latinate curia who cannot see any more clearly than...some other folks I know.  But even that is opening up in good ways...and I say that with particular reference to a married ministerial priesthood in the Catholic Church.  Things are moving in very positive directions.

At any rate...some of the nonsense that goes on in venues on the Internet really are just posturing.  I wish it could be different.  I see hope in some of us but the nay-sayers are loud and nasty.  So I'll just keep on talking...till I'm dead  angel

M.
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« Reply #219 on: May 04, 2010, 03:41:41 PM »

Once they fall from the Grace of the truth...

On the contrary...after one leaves innovations such as the IC and papal supremacy/infallibility in the past, he/she can enter the fullness of truth of Holy Orthodoxy---there is an abundance of grace and peace.
You mean the EO innovations of rejecting Papal primascy and the IC? LOL. Ok now we are just toying with each other.

Actually it's more like getting into the Roman Catholic "WORD" game.  We say AND but we really mean THRU or we say PAPAL PRIMACY when we really mean PAPAL SUPREMACY!


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« Reply #220 on: May 04, 2010, 03:47:26 PM »

Once they fall from the Grace of the truth...

On the contrary...after one leaves innovations such as the IC and papal supremacy/infallibility in the past, he/she can enter the fullness of truth of Holy Orthodoxy---there is an abundance of grace and peace.
You mean the EO innovations of rejecting Papal primascy and the IC? LOL. Ok now we are just toying with each other.

Actually it's more like getting into the Roman Catholic "WORD" game.  We say AND but we really mean THRU or we say PAPAL PRIMACY when we really mean PAPAL SUPREMACY!


Orthodoc
or perhaps an EO word game. Smiley
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« Reply #221 on: May 04, 2010, 03:47:44 PM »

Papal primascy

What is primascy?  Grin
haha. Good question.
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« Reply #222 on: May 04, 2010, 03:54:14 PM »

This is not the topic to do it but there are all of the documents from the papacy of John Paul II that call for the eastern Churches to reinvigorate their spiritual and patristic heritage.

Reinvigorate? That sounds rather vague.  

There are the actual documents from the various unions where the eastern bishops were very clear on the terms in which they would accept the union.
 

Do these documents offer acceptable alternative Eastern understandings about Latin doctrines?

Our current pope is hampered by an extremely Latinate curia who cannot see any more clearly than...some other folks I know.  But even that is opening up in good ways...and I say that with particular reference to a married ministerial priesthood in the Catholic Church.  Things are moving in very positive directions.

Sadly, I saw the opposite when I was in the Ruthenian Catholic Church.  A good friend of mine had a strong calling toward the priesthood, but he was married.  The Metropolitan told him to not even think about it.  He was devastated.  Then the Ruthenians went ahead and gender neutralized the Divine Liturgy and it was approved by Rome.  There was much more...but I will not bore you with details.
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« Reply #223 on: May 04, 2010, 04:08:11 PM »

They are asked to give intellectual assent to doctrine but that does not mean that they have to adopt all Catholic doctrine or their entire western expression. 

Interesting. Can you elaborate?  Do you have any documentation showing that Eastern Catholics do not have to "adopt all Catholic doctrine"?



I'd like to see some documentation myself.  If they don't have to accept or adopt all (Roman) Catholic doctrine , then they are knowingly and willingly 'in communion with' and 'under the authority of' a chief hierach who proclaims, upholds, and preaches false doctrine?  Where does the unity within the RCC lie then?

Orthodoc

This is informal here:  

Unity resides where it always resides in the Body of Christ.  It resides in communion.

AND

That communion rests on a foundation of Scripture and Tradition that comprises the core truths of the faith whose archetype is the Creed.  However there are and have always been a multitude of expressions of the same core truths.  Some expressions are negotiable some are not.  

The only way to discover whether or not an expression of the faith is constitutive of a core truth of revelation is to speak together in terms of meaning and importance of any give core statement of truth...that would be doctrine.

It seems our separated confessions are doing that now.

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« Reply #224 on: May 04, 2010, 04:22:02 PM »

Sadly, I saw the opposite when I was in the Ruthenian Catholic Church.  A good friend of mine had a strong calling toward the priesthood, but he was married.  The Metropolitan told him to not even think about it.  He was devastated.  Then the Ruthenians went ahead and gender neutralized the Divine Liturgy and it was approved by Rome.  There was much more...but I will not bore you with details.

The Ruthenian Church is one of the most devastated of particular Churches.  But even that is turning around.  I probably have more reason than most to have left but I am older, and more willing to accept imperfection and more than that I have regular and sustained guidance and formation in a spiritual life that is strong and disciplined.  Makes a big difference in what I can tolerate and still keep the faith.

You did the very best you could under your circumstances.  Others did the same.  I don't know you but I know others from this Metropolia who left for Orthodoxy.  They were hurt.  They were distracted from what is important in any faith life, and so they moved to a place that felt safer and where they could develop spiritually.  The bottom line is the salvation of souls.  That is the litmus test for all of us.  Where do we need to be for the salvation of our soul, the souls of our spouses and our children. 

Do I think you all were wrong?  No.  I don't.  Will I come with you?  Not unless there is an end to the schism.

M.

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