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Author Topic: Russian Patriarch Warns of 'Progressive' West  (Read 5695 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2009, 08:11:01 PM »

The Patriarch is speaking of distinguishing between "sin and sanctity."   I don't think he had your concerns in mind about the length of the clergy's hair and other such peripherals.  It is more likely he has in mind the erosion of moral values, the attempt to introduce homosexuality and same-sex marriage into Christian life, the promotion of abortion even by churchmen, euthanasia...
No. You're missing the point. Patriarch speaks of the "unity of broader Russian civilization", using the vices of the West as a pretext. Can't you see all the hidden assumptions his statement has? These are:
1) That there exists a "broader Russian civilization"
2) That Ukraine is a part of same, but subordinated to Moscow
3) That a "narrower Russian civilization" (let alone a "broader" one) is in position to teach the West anything regarding morality
4) That it actually intends to teach the West anything about morality

Kirill is a smart man and knows full well at least three of the four (all four, really) are false. Yet, he continues to make his statements. This is a third fact right here on this thread that His Holiness Kirill I is a hypocrite.

And you know what? This is not even a headline news for Russia. Because (just so you know) the vast majority of the God-bearing nation of Russia is convinced that hypocrisy is normal and justified (especially when it servers the "greatness of Russia"). You really should read some arguments in Russian Internet on how it is OK for a Patriarch to preach asceticism while wearing a $30000 Breguet watch.
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2009, 08:13:32 PM »


But already has done for the Church in Warsaw, and for the Church in Prague. I'd include Tbilisi, but I don't think Russia should have abolished the Catholicate there to begin with.

Didn't the EP gave Polish Church it's Tomos?
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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2009, 08:19:55 PM »

Ukraine was given autonomous status in 1990 as a sign of Moscow's intention to work towards full autocephaly.  But with the current schisms and Constantinople's claims on the country the wise policy is to proceed slowly and diplomatically.
Nope. Not true. Ukraine was given autonomous status to *prevent* it from declaring autocephaly unilaterally. They didn't even hide it.
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« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2009, 10:50:04 PM »


Quote
The Russian Christian Orthodox Church controls about two-thirds of the parishes in Ukraine. The remaining third are managed by the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Well, at least the article is honest enough to conclude by mentioning what this is all about: control.

Yes, it's interesting that the Moscow Times sees the Moscow function as one of "control" but the function of the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church as one of "management."

It's also interesting that the Moscow Times mentions that about two thirds of the Ukrainian parishes have chosen to be under Moscow.   It is obvious that the "control" is not felt as too onerous by the faithful.  They vote with their feet and prefer Moscow to the independent Church.

They do vote with their feet.  The MP controls 2/3rds of the churches, yet every poll or stat I've seen shows 50% of Ukrainian believers designate themselves as followers of the UOC-KP, while 26% designate themselves as followers of the UOC-MP, 7% followers of the UAOC, and 8% followers of the UGCC.  Considering Russians are 17% of the population of Ukraine, it would seem the majority of Ukrainians prefer a church independent of Moscow.

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« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2009, 11:42:23 PM »


But already has done for the Church in Warsaw, and for the Church in Prague. I'd include Tbilisi, but I don't think Russia should have abolished the Catholicate there to begin with.

Didn't the EP gave Polish Church it's Tomos?

No.  It gave Poland a tomos without authority, which, btw, is the same tomos that the KP uses to claim it is autocephalous.  Poland received a Tomos from her Mother Church a couple of decades later.
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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2009, 11:56:38 PM »


Quote
The Russian Christian Orthodox Church controls about two-thirds of the parishes in Ukraine. The remaining third are managed by the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Well, at least the article is honest enough to conclude by mentioning what this is all about: control.

Yes, it's interesting that the Moscow Times sees the Moscow function as one of "control" but the function of the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church as one of "management."

It's also interesting that the Moscow Times mentions that about two thirds of the Ukrainian parishes have chosen to be under Moscow.   It is obvious that the "control" is not felt as too onerous by the faithful.  They vote with their feet and prefer Moscow to the independent Church.

They do vote with their feet.  The MP controls 2/3rds of the churches, yet every poll or stat I've seen shows 50% of Ukrainian believers designate themselves as followers of the UOC-KP, while 26% designate themselves as followers of the UOC-MP, 7% followers of the UAOC, and 8% followers of the UGCC.  Considering Russians are 17% of the population of Ukraine, it would seem the majority of Ukrainians prefer a church independent of Moscow.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Let's just say your figures are correct.  Your point depends on the idea that every Russian in Ukraine a) goes to Church, b) goes to a UOC-MP Church, c) none goes to the KP, UAOC or UGCC.  Even then, you have 9% to explain.  Btw, how many are associated with the PSSJK?  The Ruthenians?

And what if the poll was of a Church independent of the Vatican?  I know the UGCC keeps on insisting that its primate is a patriarch (and hence the unwarranted move to Kiev), while the Vatican keeps saying no, he is not.  We are told that is not to ruin relations with the ROC-PoM. 
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« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2009, 12:22:12 AM »

....What undercuts the position of the ROC in its dialogue is the current division in Ukraine.  What would be best for them, and for the rest of us, is if they put the same amount of time & resources as they would in "its dialogue with Europe" into a dialogue with the UOC:KP.....

The problem with such a dialogue is that the current leader of the UOC-KP has had a bad track record with the Russian Church both during the years of Communism and thereafter.  Not only has he been deposed and returned to the lay state by his canonical authority but he is unfortunately seen as unreliable and unable to hold to his word.

Remember that he started his "bad record" by reaching essentially the position #2 in Russian Orthodox Church. Both his supporters and his critics tend to forget that.

I agree that Filaret is unreliable and unable to hold to his word. This is a trait common to higher Russian episcopate. Including Kirill.

While we can probably both think of serious examples of the leader of the UOC-KP not holdng to his oaths, I do not know what you have in mind with Patriarch Kirill.  Could you provide us with some specifics?
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« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2009, 12:29:26 AM »

What is so anti-Church about being progressive? Isn't the Church progressive?

George,  I notice you are placing emphasis on being progressive.  What do you have in mind by "progressive"?  What would you like the Church to progress towards?  What agenda?

Patriarch Kirill is criticised for being progressive sometimes.   The recent rock concert, his association with bikers.....

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« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2009, 12:40:43 AM »

While we can probably both think of serious examples of the leader of the UOC-KP not holdng to his oaths, I do not know what you have in mind with Patriarch Kirill.  Could you provide us with some specifics?
Easy. He promised his visit to Ukraine will be "strictly pastoral" and "not about politics". Yet he kept pushing Russian ideological agenda. Plus, all his hypocrisy. Fake Rivne controversy. Watchgate (in fact, I'm not sure wearing secular brand-name jewelry is consistent with monastic vows. Is it?)

(actually, I did hope his visit would be apolitical. I'm sorely disappointed. It seems his biker fiasco was not an accident.)
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« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2009, 12:42:10 AM »


Patriarch Kirill is criticised for being progressive sometimes.   The recent rock concert, his association with bikers.....

"Missionary" biker show in Sevastopol was not "progressive". It was a disgrace.
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« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2009, 12:51:15 AM »

While we can probably both think of serious examples of the leader of the UOC-KP not holdng to his oaths, I do not know what you have in mind with Patriarch Kirill.  Could you provide us with some specifics?
Easy. He promised his visit to Ukraine will be "strictly pastoral" and "not about politics". Yet he kept pushing Russian ideological agenda. Plus, all his hypocrisy. Fake Rivne controversy. Watchgate (in fact, I'm not sure wearing secular brand-name jewelry is consistent with monastic vows. Is it?)


You seem to be pursuing an anti-Kirill agenda.  A good example of that is the articles on zik.com.ua

Samples:

 http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/07/29/190433*
 http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/08/03/190971


The watch?   Do we know who gave it to him, and when and why?
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« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2009, 02:49:40 AM »

Is patriarch Kiril the first "baby boomer" Patriarch?

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« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2009, 05:42:38 AM »

They do vote with their feet.  The MP controls 2/3rds of the churches, yet every poll or stat I've seen shows 50% of Ukrainian believers designate themselves as followers of the UOC-KP, while 26% designate themselves as followers of the UOC-MP, 7% followers of the UAOC, and 8% followers of the UGCC.  Considering Russians are 17% of the population of Ukraine, it would seem the majority of Ukrainians prefer a church independent of Moscow.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Fr. Dn., in what part of Ukraine was the poll taken?

I have heard that the UOC-KP is most present in Kiev and western Ukraine whereas the UOC-MP is most present in eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.

Obviously if the poll was taken in an area where more people are part of the schismatic Church, than the schismatic Church would be seen as most popular even though the reality of things may not be so.
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« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2009, 07:58:02 AM »


You seem to be pursuing an anti-Kirill agenda.  A good example of that is the articles on zik.com.ua

Samples:

 http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/07/29/190433*
 http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/08/03/190971
Thanks for the links. Are you saying I wrote the articles?
The watch?   Do we know who gave it to him, and when and why?
Is it proper for a monk to wear a secular status symbol (while preaching against excessive consumption) that costs enough to build a church (or small hospital)? Yes or no?
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« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2009, 09:43:07 AM »


You seem to be pursuing an anti-Kirill agenda.  A good example of that is the articles on zik.com.ua

Samples:

 http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/07/29/190433*
 http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/08/03/190971
Thanks for the links. Are you saying I wrote the articles?

No, that had not crossed my mind.

The watch?   Do we know who gave it to him, and when and why?
Quote
Is it proper for a monk to wear a secular status symbol (while preaching against excessive consumption) that costs enough to build a church (or small hospital)? Yes or no?

No, a monk should not have such a watch.  I have never had a watch.  A monk should not have a suit of secular clothes.  A monk should not fly first class -should a monk be flying at all?  My spiritual father would not allow the monastery (27 monastics) to own a car since many of the surrounding families could not afford a car.
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« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2009, 11:03:47 AM »

They do vote with their feet.  The MP controls 2/3rds of the churches, yet every poll or stat I've seen shows 50% of Ukrainian believers designate themselves as followers of the UOC-KP, while 26% designate themselves as followers of the UOC-MP, 7% followers of the UAOC, and 8% followers of the UGCC.  Considering Russians are 17% of the population of Ukraine, it would seem the majority of Ukrainians prefer a church independent of Moscow.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Fr. Dn., in what part of Ukraine was the poll taken?

I have heard that the UOC-KP is most present in Kiev and western Ukraine whereas the UOC-MP is most present in eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.

Obviously if the poll was taken in an area where more people are part of the schismatic Church, than the schismatic Church would be seen as most popular even though the reality of things may not be so.

Exactly!  We currently have an Iconographeer who arrived two months ago from Odessa who is writing Icons for our parish.  He, along with our priest who is from Kiev) have said the complete opposite.  The people do indeed vote with their feet but it is the other way around - It is the UOC-KP where the churches are empty. It is next to impossible for the UOC-MP to get land or building permits in western Ukraine.  The MP brought it up during his visist to Ukraine. If you look at  the statistics on the number of monasteries, monks, nuns, and Sunday Schools you will see the higher number is under the UOC-MP.

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« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2009, 06:51:59 PM »

No, a monk should not have such a watch.  I have never had a watch.  A monk should not have a suit of secular clothes.  A monk should not fly first class -should a monk be flying at all?  My spiritual father would not allow the monastery (27 monastics) to own a car since many of the surrounding families could not afford a car.
I would not be quite as strict, especially re: cars. A hieromonk may serve as a dean to multiple parishes. A bishop certainly needs transportation. Nobody "needs" expensive jewelry, especially of the "exclusive"/designer kind; it's stated purpose is to feed one's pride. But I am glad you are as appalled by Patr. Kirill's hypocrisy as I am.  Grin
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« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2009, 07:02:19 PM »

As one commentator in Ukraine noted, Patr. Kirill made the "liberal values" of the West his scapegoat in order to sell the idea that rigid structure and blind obedience to authorities is the foundation of Orthodoxy. (Under "liberal," he does not mean what is meant under "liberal" in the USA. He means freedom of the speech, of the press, of the conventions, the equality of people under the law, etc. - in short, what Americans would call exactly the "conservative" Western agenda.) See here, http://www.cerkva.info/2009/08/05/kiril_3.html - I don't have the time to translate, sorry.
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« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2009, 09:21:03 PM »

As one commentator in Ukraine noted, Patr. Kirill made the "liberal values" of the West his scapegoat in order to sell the idea that rigid structure and blind obedience to authorities is the foundation of Orthodoxy. (Under "liberal," he does not mean what is meant under "liberal" in the USA. He means freedom of the speech, of the press, of the conventions, the equality of people under the law, etc. - in short, what Americans would call exactly the "conservative" Western agenda.) See here, http://www.cerkva.info/2009/08/05/kiril_3.html - I don't have the time to translate, sorry.

Interesting. As a non-American, I have frequently questioned the use of the words "liberal" and "conservative" on this forum as though have universal meanings in the English speaking world. They are both, in fact, subjective terms.
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« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2009, 09:36:09 PM »


Quote
The Russian Christian Orthodox Church controls about two-thirds of the parishes in Ukraine. The remaining third are managed by the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Well, at least the article is honest enough to conclude by mentioning what this is all about: control.

Yes, it's interesting that the Moscow Times sees the Moscow function as one of "control" but the function of the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church as one of "management."

It's also interesting that the Moscow Times mentions that about two thirds of the Ukrainian parishes have chosen to be under Moscow.   It is obvious that the "control" is not felt as too onerous by the faithful.  They vote with their feet and prefer Moscow to the independent Church.

They do vote with their feet.  The MP controls 2/3rds of the churches, yet every poll or stat I've seen shows 50% of Ukrainian believers designate themselves as followers of the UOC-KP, while 26% designate themselves as followers of the UOC-MP, 7% followers of the UAOC, and 8% followers of the UGCC.  Considering Russians are 17% of the population of Ukraine, it would seem the majority of Ukrainians prefer a church independent of Moscow.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Let's just say your figures are correct.  Your point depends on the idea that every Russian in Ukraine a) goes to Church, b) goes to a UOC-MP Church, c) none goes to the KP, UAOC or UGCC.  Even then, you have 9% to explain.  Btw, how many are associated with the PSSJK?  The Ruthenians?

And what if the poll was of a Church independent of the Vatican?  I know the UGCC keeps on insisting that its primate is a patriarch (and hence the unwarranted move to Kiev), while the Vatican keeps saying no, he is not.  We are told that is not to ruin relations with the ROC-PoM. 

The figures are from the CIA, they are not mine.  I admit it is only a guess but I am willing to bet a significant portion of the 26% are Russians or Russian speakers from the South and East.  The Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox in the Mukachevo-Uzhorod region are very pro-Russian, however.  The PSSJK has control of a single parish and is very small, a few thousand at best.  The Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholics number around 300,000.  The Eparchy of Mukachevo is not part of the UGCC and would not be included in its stats.

The UGCC is the largest, best organized, and widest spread Eastern Catholic Church.  If any Eastern Catholic Church should be a patriarchate, it should be according to criteria set forth at Vatican II and in the CCEO.  Yet, because of the MP, the UGCC has not been granted the title, and the small Russian and Belarusian Greek Catholic Churches have no hierarchs of their own.  Why should they not be headquatered in the capital of their country?  You don't see Catholics telling the Orthodox Metropolitans of Warsaw and Prague they shouldn't be there.

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« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2009, 12:01:00 AM »

No, a monk should not have such a watch.  I have never had a watch.  A monk should not have a suit of secular clothes.  A monk should not fly first class -should a monk be flying at all?  My spiritual father would not allow the monastery (27 monastics) to own a car since many of the surrounding families could not afford a car.
I would not be quite as strict, especially re: cars. A hieromonk may serve as a dean to multiple parishes. A bishop certainly needs transportation. Nobody "needs" expensive jewelry, especially of the "exclusive"/designer kind; it's stated purpose is to feed one's pride. But I am glad you are as appalled by Patr. Kirill's hypocrisy as I am.  Grin

I never connected the words "Kirill" and "hypocrisy."  I am though appalled at my own hypocrisy - "A hieromonk may serve as a dean to multiple parishes"  - my situation for the last 20 odd years, to the great detriment of my monastic life.   God forgive my hypocrisy that I took monastic vows and then allowed myself to return to "the world."
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« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2009, 12:24:14 AM »

It is nice to see the flock in Ukraine gathering around their arch-shepherd.
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« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2009, 12:33:32 AM »

I never connected the words "Kirill" and "hypocrisy."  I am though appalled at my own hypocrisy - "A hieromonk may serve as a dean to multiple parishes"  - my situation for the last 20 odd years, to the great detriment of my monastic life.   God forgive my hypocrisy that I took monastic vows and then allowed myself to return to "the world."
Your situation allows you to serve Lord's Church. Kirill's tastes in expensive trinkets harms all mission efforts in Russia (by perpetuating an ugly stereotype of "priest in a  Mercedes"). Are you seriously telling me that you see no difference?

BTW, your excuse of "we don't know who gave it to him" does not fly. Even a secular official will be in serious violation of ethical standards if he accepts such a gift. He'll commit a second violation if he won't disclose a giver. "Progressive West" knows these things.
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« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2009, 01:03:29 AM »

I never connected the words "Kirill" and "hypocrisy."  I am though appalled at my own hypocrisy - "A hieromonk may serve as a dean to multiple parishes"  - my situation for the last 20 odd years, to the great detriment of my monastic life.   God forgive my hypocrisy that I took monastic vows and then allowed myself to return to "the world."
Your situation allows you to serve Lord's Church. Kirill's tastes in expensive trinkets harms all mission efforts in Russia (by perpetuating an ugly stereotype of "priest in a  Mercedes"). Are you seriously telling me that you see no difference?

BTW, your excuse of "we don't know who gave it to him" does not fly. Even a secular official will be in serious violation of ethical standards if he accepts such a gift.

Tell that to the Patriarch of Jerusalem!   He gives to the King of Jordan a very expensive present upon his election.  If memory serves the last Patriarch presented the King with a magnificent baton of gold encrusted with diamonds.  Must be worth 100s of thousands of shekels. 

And is it not customary for Patriarchs to receive and give gifts at the time of official visits.  What did Obama give the Patriarch?
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« Reply #69 on: August 06, 2009, 01:19:57 AM »


Quote
The Russian Christian Orthodox Church controls about two-thirds of the parishes in Ukraine. The remaining third are managed by the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Well, at least the article is honest enough to conclude by mentioning what this is all about: control.

Yes, it's interesting that the Moscow Times sees the Moscow function as one of "control" but the function of the independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church as one of "management."

It's also interesting that the Moscow Times mentions that about two thirds of the Ukrainian parishes have chosen to be under Moscow.   It is obvious that the "control" is not felt as too onerous by the faithful.  They vote with their feet and prefer Moscow to the independent Church.

They do vote with their feet.  The MP controls 2/3rds of the churches, yet every poll or stat I've seen shows 50% of Ukrainian believers designate themselves as followers of the UOC-KP, while 26% designate themselves as followers of the UOC-MP, 7% followers of the UAOC, and 8% followers of the UGCC.  Considering Russians are 17% of the population of Ukraine, it would seem the majority of Ukrainians prefer a church independent of Moscow.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Let's just say your figures are correct.  Your point depends on the idea that every Russian in Ukraine a) goes to Church, b) goes to a UOC-MP Church, c) none goes to the KP, UAOC or UGCC.  Even then, you have 9% to explain.  Btw, how many are associated with the PSSJK?  The Ruthenians?

And what if the poll was of a Church independent of the Vatican?  I know the UGCC keeps on insisting that its primate is a patriarch (and hence the unwarranted move to Kiev), while the Vatican keeps saying no, he is not.  We are told that is not to ruin relations with the ROC-PoM. 

The figures are from the CIA, they are not mine.  I admit it is only a guess but I am willing to bet a significant portion of the 26% are Russians or Russian speakers from the South and East.  The Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox in the Mukachevo-Uzhorod region are very pro-Russian, however.  The PSSJK has control of a single parish and is very small, a few thousand at best.  The Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholics number around 300,000.  The Eparchy of Mukachevo is not part of the UGCC and would not be included in its stats.

The UGCC is the largest, best organized, and widest spread Eastern Catholic Church.  If any Eastern Catholic Church should be a patriarchate, it should be according to criteria set forth at Vatican II and in the CCEO.  Yet, because of the MP, the UGCC has not been granted the title, and the small Russian and Belarusian Greek Catholic Churches have no hierarchs of their own.  Why should they not be headquatered in the capital of their country?  You don't see Catholics telling the Orthodox Metropolitans of Warsaw and Prague they shouldn't be there.

Fr. Deacon Lance  

Oh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral,_Warsaw#Demolition
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« Reply #70 on: August 06, 2009, 01:49:07 AM »

I was refering to the present day.  Funny how when present intolerance is pointed out all you can do is pull up the past, which had to do with Polish vs Russian antagonism.  Poles building a Cathedral to St. Josaphat or St Andrew Bobola in Moscow would be the equivalent of what the Russians did building a Cathedral to St. Alexander Nevsky in Warsaw. 

In the present day only the MP is whining about the UGCC moving their primate's see to Kyiv, while the Orthodox Metropolitans of Warsaw and Prague go about their business with no complaint from us.

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« Reply #71 on: August 06, 2009, 08:45:09 AM »

As one commentator in Ukraine noted, Patr. Kirill made the "liberal values" of the West his scapegoat in order to sell the idea that rigid structure and blind obedience to authorities is the foundation of Orthodoxy. (Under "liberal," he does not mean what is meant under "liberal" in the USA. He means freedom of the speech, of the press, of the conventions, the equality of people under the law, etc. - in short, what Americans would call exactly the "conservative" Western agenda.) See here, http://www.cerkva.info/2009/08/05/kiril_3.html - I don't have the time to translate, sorry.

Interesting. As a non-American, I have frequently questioned the use of the words "liberal" and "conservative" on this forum as though have universal meanings in the English speaking world. They are both, in fact, subjective terms.

What Americans call "liberal," the post-Soviet peoples call "socialist."

What post-Soviet peoples call "liberal," Americans call "our foundational Western values," beginning from Magna Carta and Adam Smith.
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« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2009, 07:15:35 PM »


Tell that to the Patriarch of Jerusalem!   He gives to the King of Jordan a very expensive present upon his election.  If memory serves the last Patriarch presented the King with a magnificent baton of gold encrusted with diamonds.  Must be worth 100s of thousands of shekels. 
I guess Kingdom of Jordan is a good potential ally of ROC-MP in opposing "liberal West".
And is it not customary for Patriarchs to receive and give gifts at the time of official visits.  What did Obama give the Patriarch?
Even if so, it would be inappropriate for a Patriarch to keep a gift as a personal property. Besides, Breguet is such a dumb gift for a clergyman. As ignorant as Obama is on all things Eastern Christianity, I doubt he'd make such a choice.
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« Reply #73 on: August 06, 2009, 11:59:33 PM »

As one commentator in Ukraine noted, Patr. Kirill made the "liberal values" of the West his scapegoat in order to sell the idea that rigid structure and blind obedience to authorities is the foundation of Orthodoxy. (Under "liberal," he does not mean what is meant under "liberal" in the USA. He means freedom of the speech, of the press, of the conventions, the equality of people under the law, etc. - in short, what Americans would call exactly the "conservative" Western agenda.) See here, http://www.cerkva.info/2009/08/05/kiril_3.html - I don't have the time to translate, sorry.

Interesting. As a non-American, I have frequently questioned the use of the words "liberal" and "conservative" on this forum as though have universal meanings in the English speaking world. They are both, in fact, subjective terms.

What Americans call "liberal," the post-Soviet peoples call "socialist."

What post-Soviet peoples call "liberal," Americans call "our foundational Western values," beginning from Magna Carta and Adam Smith.

And in Australia, the Liberal Party is the conservative party.
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« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2009, 12:05:14 AM »

As one commentator in Ukraine noted, Patr. Kirill made the "liberal values" of the West his scapegoat in order to sell the idea that rigid structure and blind obedience to authorities is the foundation of Orthodoxy. (Under "liberal," he does not mean what is meant under "liberal" in the USA. He means freedom of the speech, of the press, of the conventions, the equality of people under the law, etc. - in short, what Americans would call exactly the "conservative" Western agenda.) See here, http://www.cerkva.info/2009/08/05/kiril_3.html - I don't have the time to translate, sorry.

Interesting. As a non-American, I have frequently questioned the use of the words "liberal" and "conservative" on this forum as though have universal meanings in the English speaking world. They are both, in fact, subjective terms.

What Americans call "liberal," the post-Soviet peoples call "socialist."

What post-Soviet peoples call "liberal," Americans call "our foundational Western values," beginning from Magna Carta and Adam Smith.

And in Australia, the Labor Party is the conservative party.

Actually...in OzLand, the Liberals are the conservative party...at least in the eyes of the majority....I don't consider them conservative personally...
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« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2009, 12:27:22 AM »

I was refering to the present day.  Funny how when present intolerance is pointed out all you can do is pull up the past,

You think it is past, do you?

Quote
'ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY IS INDIGENOUS TO POLAND'
A POLISH ORTHODOX MONASTERY ESTABLISHED: 'IT IS THE WILL OF GOD'

In establishing their monastery, the monks encountered all kinds of obstacles. Just a week after they purchased the land, the Roman Catholic Curia sent a letter to the court in Przemysl, claiming that it had been purchased illegally, since Uniats in Poland could not buy land in Poland without the permission of the Roman Catholic Church. Fortunately, the monks had bought the land not as clerics but as private individuals, for agricultural use. So the Roman Catholic claims were rejected.

Some people began to come to the monastery. Women and children would come regularly for evening devotions to the Mother of God. There was even talk about possibly renovating the derelict Eastern-rite church, which had been closed in 1946. In May 1988, however, the Roman Catholic priest forbade the children from going to the monastery. Rumours began circulating against the monks.

On 18 August, 1988, the eve of the Feast of Transfiguration, some boys from the village came to the monastery: 'Oh, fathers, tomorrow at noon there will be a lot of flags and protest signs, and people will come and destroy the monastery walls'. It.was already nearing eleven o'clock. The monks took seriously the threat and, in spite of the late hour, they drove to the police station for help. When they arrived, relates Fr. Nikodim, 'we saw a woman talking on the phone, explaining to someone that all the phones in front of the post office were out of order. As she was leaving she saw us, stopped, and greeted us in Ukranian: 'Glory to Jesus Christ'. We responded, 'Glory forever'. She then added, 'Who is with God, him will God help'. And she left....

The Monastery of SS Cyril and Methodius was officially received into the Polish Orthodox Church on 7 June 1994, the very day the decision was made to glorify Saint Maxim Sandowicz who had struggled, as these monks were doing, to bring Orthodoxy back to his native land.

'Orthodox Christianity is indigenous to Poland', observed Fr. Nikodim. 'SS Cyril and Methodius arrived here before the Western Schism of 1054. There was only one Christendom, and it has survived down to our own day in the form of the Orthodox Church. Clearly, Orthodoxy is not alien to Poland, it was not brought by any tsar, it is our own. It has shaped the Polish state since its inception, for about twelve hundred years. Orthodoxy in this land is native, like the Vistula and San rivers, which flow through the country, watering the soil, and making it fertile. You can't ignore this river, and you can't dam it up because sooner or later the dam will break, such is the nature of the river'....

Of course, there are those that are against it. When monks began work on a road, some people cursed them, seeing in the monks a threat to the existing Roman Catholic order (all six monks are former Roman Catholics, and the monastery it already attracting many Roman Catholic from Przemysl, Krakow, Ukraine, and twenty-eight children have been baptized). But the monks are imposing their faith on no-one. They are simply providing an opportunity for those who wish to return to the Faith of their ancestors. At one time the Przemysl diocese numbered some three million Orthodox faithful. Then came the tragic 'Brest Unia' of 1596, cleverly engineered to align the people with the interests of the Roman Catholic Austro-Hungarian Empire. Those who refused to accept the Unia were made to suffer economically and were otherwise persecuted. The last Orthodox monastery to hold out against the Union was the Maniawski Skete, which was destroyed in July 1786 by Austrian artillery. Precisely two hundred years later, in July 1986, Orthodox monasticism in the Przemysl diocese was reborn.
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/oepoland.htm

Quote
which had to do with Polish vs Russian antagonism.  Poles building a Cathedral to St. Josaphat or St Andrew Bobola in Moscow would be the equivalent of what the Russians did building a Cathedral to St. Alexander Nevsky in Warsaw.

I wasn't aware that the Poles were such fans of the Teutonic Knights.

Quote
In the present day only the MP is whining about the UGCC moving their primate's see to Kyiv, while the Orthodox Metropolitans of Warsaw and Prague go about their business with no complaint from us.

Seizing the Churches etc of the Orthodox in Slovakia et alia, I fail to see what you would complain of.

Btw
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22406.msg341431/topicseen.html#msg341431
Quote
No Romanian edition was published in 92 so your story still doesn't wash.

Quote

Did I miss your response?
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« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2009, 02:04:32 AM »

Quote from: Deacon Lance on Yesterday at 01:49:07 AM
I was refering to the present day.  Funny how when present intolerance is pointed out all you can do is pull up the past,

Comments:  What's even funnier is that you, and others like you, are only willing to go as far back is necessary for you to try and prove your point.  Aren't you one of those who complain about the forced reunion of the UGC back into Orthodoxy?  That was in 1947.  Yet you give this response to a reply noting what the Ploish did to the ROC in 1924-27 which is only 23+ years before!

As I've responded to you and others many time here and elsewhere -  In order to get the complete story on what the book is about, and why things happened, in any novel you have to start from chapter one, page one.  You don't just read the last chapter and base the novel on what it contains.

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« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2009, 02:06:09 AM »

...
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/oepoland.htm
[/quote]

Quote
which had to do with Polish vs Russian antagonism. Poles building a Cathedral to St. Josaphat or St Andrew Bobola in Moscow would be the equivalent of what the Russians did building a Cathedral to St. Alexander Nevsky in Warsaw.

I wasn't aware that the Poles were such fans of the Teutonic Knights.

[/quote]

Cheesy

Me neither.
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« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2009, 02:06:25 AM »

And turning the Orthodox Church in Bylestok into a urinal is not outragious?   None the less, the defaced icons on the facade of this defiled temple restored themselves in the 1970s.  God had not abandoned his church to the Magisterium - oops been reading to much Philip Pullman!
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« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2009, 06:23:58 PM »

I enjoyed his recent sermon against "excessive consumerism" rather more. Judging from his own example, $30000 watch is not excessive, even for a monk:

http://unian.net/eng/news/news-329063.html

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6311

Quote
Archdeacon Kurayev: Patriarch is not forbidden to wear expensive watch

Moscow, August 7, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church was bewildered with media frenzy build over an expensive watch of Patriarch Kirill noticed by Ukrainian journalists on his hand.

"If the watch is really expensive, it is worth asking a question: does Patriarch know that it is that expensive?" professor of the Moscow Theological Academy Archdeacon Andrey Kurayev said.

He explained that Patriarch does not go shopping, and any church hierarch including Patriarch uses in his household and service things given to him as presents. "It may well be that the watch was presented to Patriarch by any president of those dozen countries where the Church performs its pastoral activity," Fr. Andrey said.

With respect to media frenzy over Patriarch's watch he also recalled that similar claims were put to righteous Saint John of Kronstadt: Fr. John called believers to lead a life of spirit and wore expensive silk frocks.

"St. John of Kronstadt once answered such a reproach: I have long doubted whether I can keep such expensive presents, but then I realized that if I give them away, I would hurt the feelings of the people who had made such presents," Fr. Andrey said.

Fr. John distributed anonymous money donations he was receiving and kept expensive unique things in order not to bewilder those who had given them to him. "This is the form of humility: you do not imitate a pilgrim monk, and humbly use things given to you by people and the Church, but you keep your heart free from such things," Fr. Andrey said.

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« Reply #80 on: August 09, 2009, 06:32:17 PM »

No comments on my clarification about what "liberal" values his "holiness" meant. As expected.
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