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Author Topic: Old vs. New Calendar?  (Read 202767 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1755 on: November 10, 2011, 05:10:08 PM »

Who are the folks sitting behind the throne (without halos)?

How to portray "enemies of the church" in icons:



The two figures in the foreground with little black demons on their shoulders are Eutyches and Dioscorus, who were condemned at this council; Eutyches for his heretical stance on the nature(s) of Christ, and Dioscorus for his presiding over the non-canonical second council at Ephesus (which later became known as the "Robber Council"), and other serious infractions.

It is interesting to note that Dioscorus's clothing resembles bishop's vestments (on the death of St Cyril of Alexandria, Dioscorus succeeded him as Patriarch). A closer look shows that his omophorion (the strip of vestment draped over his shoulders and over his left arm) is plain, with no crosses on it, unlike those of the seated hierarchs. Likewise, Dioscorus's blue phelonion and stole (epitracheilion) are also devoid of the usual crosses and other motifs normally on these vestments. Eutyches, a priest and abbot, likewise, wears a plain stole.

This portrayal vividly illustrates the stripping of authority, the repudiation and the excommunication of Dioscorus and Eutyches, therefore, the little black demons could be regarded as an unnecessary embellishment. (But that's me being picky ...) But all is done with dispassion and dignity, as befits a proper icon.

How not to:



The naked man under the saint's feet is labeled "Pope of Rome". He has run a sword through a Gospel book, and is about to be cast into the abyss. Oh dear.



Patriarch Sergius is shown flailing about, his vestments parting to reveal him dressed in a Soviet komissar's uniform. A model of dispassion and restaint? More like a political cartoon, and a bad one at that.

Quote
I would hear hymns that describe heretics in a rather personal and harsh way, including calling them names like "so-and-so the idiot" or "so-and-so the ugly".

Care to provide examples of these? Impious, wicked and lawless I have heard in hymnography referring to certain persons, but never idiot or ugly.
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« Reply #1756 on: November 10, 2011, 06:44:25 PM »

Quote
Who are the folks sitting behind the throne (without halos)?

They would likely be officials of the imperial court present at the Council. They are gesturing with raised hands in homage to Emperor Marcian.
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« Reply #1757 on: November 10, 2011, 11:24:27 PM »

How to portray "enemies of the church" in icons:



The two figures in the foreground with little black demons on their shoulders are Eutyches and Dioscorus, who were condemned at this council; Eutyches for his heretical stance on the nature(s) of Christ, and Dioscorus for his presiding over the non-canonical second council at Ephesus (which later became known as the "Robber Council"), and other serious infractions.

It is interesting to note that Dioscorus's clothing resembles bishop's vestments (on the death of St Cyril of Alexandria, Dioscorus succeeded him as Patriarch). A closer look shows that his omophorion (the strip of vestment draped over his shoulders and over his left arm) is plain, with no crosses on it, unlike those of the seated hierarchs. Likewise, Dioscorus's blue phelonion and stole (epitracheilion) are also devoid of the usual crosses and other motifs normally on these vestments. Eutyches, a priest and abbot, likewise, wears a plain stole.

This portrayal vividly illustrates the stripping of authority, the repudiation and the excommunication of Dioscorus and Eutyches, therefore, the little black demons could be regarded as an unnecessary embellishment. (But that's me being picky ...) But all is done with dispassion and dignity, as befits a proper icon.

How not to:



The naked man under the saint's feet is labeled "Pope of Rome". He has run a sword through a Gospel book, and is about to be cast into the abyss. Oh dear.



Patriarch Sergius is shown flailing about, his vestments parting to reveal him dressed in a Soviet komissar's uniform. A model of dispassion and restaint? More like a political cartoon, and a bad one at that.

Quote
I would hear hymns that describe heretics in a rather personal and harsh way, including calling them names like "so-and-so the idiot" or "so-and-so the ugly".

Care to provide examples of these? Impious, wicked and lawless I have heard in hymnography referring to certain persons, but never idiot or ugly.

Yes, I will look for those examples and post them. I'm not sure about the exact words but it was a little worse than just impious, wicked, or lawless.

And can you post the links of where you found those icons?
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« Reply #1758 on: November 11, 2011, 02:23:57 AM »

Quote
And can you post the links of where you found those icons?

The one of St Joseph of Petrograd is from a thread on this forum; I no longer have the link to the St Mark of Ephesus one, the image is in my (sadly growing) archive of uncanonical and dubious "icons". It probably came from a blog somewhere.
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« Reply #1759 on: November 11, 2011, 02:37:17 PM »

Although I do not know much more about Metropolitan Sergius' primacial ministry other than the generalities that have been commonly published, it should be noted that initially, when he assumed the position of Deputy Locum Tenens of the Church of Russia, he did issue a rational commentary on the state of affairs in the Communist Soviet Union, asserting the church would maintain its spiritual responsibilities to its faithful, criticising the Soviets for their actions against the church, similar to a commentary issued soon after the Bolshevik Revolution by St. Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow and Enlightener of North America, but asserting that the church would avoid critique of the civil Soviet authorities, essentially.  He was imprisoned for this message; only God and a few Communist security guards know what treatment His Eminence was subjected to while in the custody of the Bolsheviks.  Upon his release, he issued the famous "The joys and sorrows of the state are the joys and sorrows of the church," message; (paraphrased).  My only point is we should not be too prompt to judge the Orthodox clergy of the Stalinist era, not knowing the specific autocracies to which they were subject by the vile, inhuman Communists.  I think it's more likely that his actions on behalf of the church saved at least a facade of a church institution,  rather than taking the position that he was inspired by the Devil as depicted in the painting above; (I purposely didn't refer to it as an "icon").
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« Reply #1760 on: November 11, 2011, 05:34:04 PM »

Although I do not know much more about Metropolitan Sergius' primacial ministry other than the generalities that have been commonly published, it should be noted that initially, when he assumed the position of Deputy Locum Tenens of the Church of Russia, he did issue a rational commentary on the state of affairs in the Communist Soviet Union, asserting the church would maintain its spiritual responsibilities to its faithful, criticising the Soviets for their actions against the church, similar to a commentary issued soon after the Bolshevik Revolution by St. Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow and Enlightener of North America, but asserting that the church would avoid critique of the civil Soviet authorities, essentially.  He was imprisoned for this message; only God and a few Communist security guards know what treatment His Eminence was subjected to while in the custody of the Bolsheviks.  Upon his release, he issued the famous "The joys and sorrows of the state are the joys and sorrows of the church," message; (paraphrased).  My only point is we should not be too prompt to judge the Orthodox clergy of the Stalinist era, not knowing the specific autocracies to which they were subject by the vile, inhuman Communists.  I think it's more likely that his actions on behalf of the church saved at least a facade of a church institution,  rather than taking the position that he was inspired by the Devil as depicted in the painting above; (I purposely didn't refer to it as an "icon").

You may well have a point there. I don't think you can form an ecclesiology based on the idea that Met Sergius was a completely willing collaborator with the Soviet authorities in 1927 (the situation in 1943, when he was elevated to the Patriarchate as the sole candidate, with government backing, is another matter, and in fact the icon is clearly depicting Sergius as Patriarch). But I don't think the personal culpability of heretics has ever really been the issue when trying to determine the boundaries of the Church. If a bishop is preaching heresy, whether or not willingly, my understanding is that the false public confession of faith of its own accord is grounds for the faithful to separate from him. Speculation about the interior motives of heretical or schismatic hierarchs is not a necessary step when determining the conditions for separation, and indeed I think it can distract the faithful from following the right path and severing themselves from heresy and schism.

The capitulation of Met Sergius in 1927 consisted in more than simply acknowledging the authority of the Bolsheviks in State matters. The Communist Party was special in that they did not distinguish between outward obedience to their authority and acceptance of their ideology (this is in fact what distinguishes totalitarian from merely authoritarian regimes). It was not enough, in other words, for the Church authorities to proclaim obedience to the Soviet government in matters that did not pertain to the Faith, and we see in the very example you bring up that the Soviet authorities did not look kindly on attempts to distinguish the two for the sake of preserving the integrity of the Faith. In his Declaration, Met Sergius, by identifying the joys and sorrows of the Church with the joys and sorrows of the Soviet Union (as opposed to, for example, identifying with the joys and sorrows of Russia), Met Sergius effectively declared that the ideology of the Church was now identical with the ideology of Communism. The country known as the Soviet Union was completely a creation of the Communist Party and is inseparable from it; the only thing the Soviet Union shared with Imperial Russia was its geographical borders. It was not possible to declare unequivocal support for the Soviet Union without also declaring support for the Communist Party.
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« Reply #1761 on: November 12, 2011, 02:00:36 PM »

Great post, Jonathan.

Notice the glasses on the "unholy" Pat. Sergius on the "icon" posted below?

Does that indicate that he was myopic in the religious sense?

By the way, has anyone ever seen glasses depicted on the icon of a saint?

How to portray "enemies of the church" in icons:



The two figures in the foreground with little black demons on their shoulders are Eutyches and Dioscorus, who were condemned at this council; Eutyches for his heretical stance on the nature(s) of Christ, and Dioscorus for his presiding over the non-canonical second council at Ephesus (which later became known as the "Robber Council"), and other serious infractions.

It is interesting to note that Dioscorus's clothing resembles bishop's vestments (on the death of St Cyril of Alexandria, Dioscorus succeeded him as Patriarch). A closer look shows that his omophorion (the strip of vestment draped over his shoulders and over his left arm) is plain, with no crosses on it, unlike those of the seated hierarchs. Likewise, Dioscorus's blue phelonion and stole (epitracheilion) are also devoid of the usual crosses and other motifs normally on these vestments. Eutyches, a priest and abbot, likewise, wears a plain stole.

This portrayal vividly illustrates the stripping of authority, the repudiation and the excommunication of Dioscorus and Eutyches, therefore, the little black demons could be regarded as an unnecessary embellishment. (But that's me being picky ...) But all is done with dispassion and dignity, as befits a proper icon.

How not to:



The naked man under the saint's feet is labeled "Pope of Rome". He has run a sword through a Gospel book, and is about to be cast into the abyss. Oh dear.



Patriarch Sergius is shown flailing about, his vestments parting to reveal him dressed in a Soviet komissar's uniform. A model of dispassion and restaint? More like a political cartoon, and a bad one at that.

Quote
I would hear hymns that describe heretics in a rather personal and harsh way, including calling them names like "so-and-so the idiot" or "so-and-so the ugly".

Care to provide examples of these? Impious, wicked and lawless I have heard in hymnography referring to certain persons, but never idiot or ugly.
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« Reply #1762 on: November 12, 2011, 05:30:52 PM »

Quote
By the way, has anyone ever seen glasses depicted on the icon of a saint?

Icons are portrayals of a saint's spiritual reality, of a saint's perfected state in the eyes of God, and not of imperfections which illustrate mankind's fallen, imperfect state.

A saint who wore spectacles during his earthly life should not be wearing them in icons. Examples include St John of Shanghai and San Francisco (1896-1966), Hieromartyr Benjamin of Petrograd (+1922), and St Luke the Surgeon of Simferopol (1876-1961).

Another example is St Matrona of Moscow, another 20th C saint. Venerable Matrona was born blind. There are many icons of her with her eyes closed (as they were in her earthly life, there are many photographs of her which show this). Though physically blind all her earthly life, she showed herself to be a model of spiritual illumination. Her physical eyes were useless, but her spiritual eyes were wide open. Thus she should be portrayed with her eyes open, to illustrate this spiritual reality. I have come across a few such icons, but they are only a handful.

St Matrona has also been painted reclining on a bed or couch, referring to her infirmity in her later years. While such imagery is acceptable as a side panel in a life icon, it should not be used as an icon in its own right. The saint may have been bedridden, but she now stands before the throne of God.
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« Reply #1763 on: December 23, 2011, 05:53:19 PM »

CONTEXT NOTE - The following bits of discussion started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41865.0.html


And the canonical churches which use the old calendar are in full communion with canonical churches which use the new. So, for example, the canonical Russian, Serbian and Ukrainian churches (OC) are in full communion with the canonical churches of Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Romania (all NC).

The new calendar might be seen as irregular or anomalous, but is not heretical, otherwise there could not be this mutual communion. Certain schismatic, non-canonical groups (some of which are not in communion with anyone else) have chosen to regard the use of the NC as heretical, for various reasons. They are, simply, wrong.
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« Reply #1764 on: December 23, 2011, 11:53:50 PM »

And the canonical churches which use the old calendar are in full communion with canonical churches which use the new. So, for example, the canonical Russian, Serbian and Ukrainian churches (OC) are in full communion with the canonical churches of Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Romania (all NC).

The new calendar might be seen as irregular or anomalous, but is not heretical, otherwise there could not be this mutual communion. Certain schismatic, non-canonical groups (some of which are not in communion with anyone else) have chosen to regard the use of the NC as heretical, for various reasons. They are, simply, wrong.
Just be aware that there are many here who will debate you vehemently on this point and that the Convert Issues board is not the place for such heated debate.
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« Reply #1765 on: December 26, 2011, 08:25:18 PM »

Havent read the entire thread, hope it hasent been asked and answered already. if it has, sorry.

What was the reason behind the change to the new calander?

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« Reply #1766 on: December 26, 2011, 11:40:37 PM »

Wow, something so meaningless as dates on a calendar caused the church to devide!
Vvery sad.

So, old and new calendarists do not recognise each other as the Orthodox Church?

I never realy felt it, no one ever said anything about it.

I was under the impression that some follow the old and some the new BUT both were still of the same church.

I should do some reaserch on this
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Thanks for the responces and the links.
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The Orthodox who observe the New Calendar and the Orthodox who observe the Old Calendar all recognize each other as the Orthodox Church.   There are schismatics, those who have chosen to separate themselves from Christ's Church, who claim to be Orthodox, who cause all the confusion.  Pay them no mind. 
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« Reply #1767 on: December 27, 2011, 08:07:02 AM »

Astounding that there should be such division over dates in a church which historically, leans so heavily on the strength of their unity.

'lol' of the day for me.

Daft, isn't it? Not so much a 'lol' on the inside, though. It's really a shame that this has divided anyone.  Cry

Those who see it as a division are, almost without exception, not in communion with the canonical churches, and, often not in communion with any other Orthodox group. That speaks volumes.
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« Reply #1768 on: December 27, 2011, 09:28:45 AM »

Astounding that there should be such division over dates in a church which historically, leans so heavily on the strength of their unity.

'lol' of the day for me.

Daft, isn't it? Not so much a 'lol' on the inside, though. It's really a shame that this has divided anyone.  Cry

Those who see it as a division are, almost without exception, not in communion with the canonical churches, and, often not in communion with any other Orthodox group. That speaks volumes.

Sorry I don't think this is place for hashing out the OC versus NC debate. I think it's interesting that the moderators are allowing our World Orthodox members to bash the True Orthodox, but when I try to put in a word for the other side I'm censured for bringing up inappropriate topics in the Convert forum.

The truth be told, Jonathan, I addressed on this thread those who appear to have wanted to start polemical debate from BOTH sides of the issue by directing them to the sticky on Faith Issues where the Calendar Controversy is debated. I therefore find your complaint about unfair treatment rather hollow.

You also compound the issue of fair vs. unfair treatment by airing your complaint about forum moderation on this public thread for all to see. You've been here long enough to know better than to do this. Considering this, you are hereby on Warned status for the next three weeks. If you think this action wrong, feel free to appeal it via private message to Veniamin.

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« Reply #1769 on: December 27, 2011, 01:29:42 PM »

Astounding that there should be such division over dates in a church which historically, leans so heavily on the strength of their unity.

'lol' of the day for me.

Daft, isn't it? Not so much a 'lol' on the inside, though. It's really a shame that this has divided anyone.  Cry

Those who see it as a division are, almost without exception, not in communion with the canonical churches, and, often not in communion with any other Orthodox group. That speaks volumes.

Sorry I don't think this is place for hashing out the OC versus NC debate. I think it's interesting that the moderators are allowing our World Orthodox members to bash the True Orthodox, but when I try to put in a word for the other side I'm censured for bringing up inappropriate topics in the Convert forum.

I have thought about this for several hours and decided to post a response.

Speaking the truth can hardly be described as 'bashing.' It is an undeniable truth that the overwhelming majority of the planet's Orthodox Churches are in Communion with each other - notwithstanding the Calender issue.

However, it is equally true that those groups which broke away from the Church over this and related, issues, view the calendar as being a dogmatic, doctrinal basis for division. They have added the redundant terms of 'true' or 'genuine' to their names. If you choose to call yourself 'true' or 'genuine', it is only logical to assume that one would regards others as 'untrue' or 'non-genuine.'

Folks are free to call themselves what they want to, but it is fair game to remind our non-Orthodox readers and subscribers that these groups do not represent a large voice with international Orthodoxy. For our Catholic friends, I think it would be fair to make what is an imperfect analogy between them and the SSPX in order to better understand where they fit in the larger picture of the Orthodox Church.  I personally do not view them as being without 'grace' - that is not for me to say or judge - nor do I doubt the depth, passion and sincerity of their beliefs. Nevertheless, I view their position as being misguided as, like many, I do not view the calendar as a Church-dividing issue (By this I mean dividing the Church looking at the"big picture" - not the parish or family level - that is another question for another day.)
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« Reply #1770 on: December 27, 2011, 01:57:26 PM »

Astounding that there should be such division over dates in a church which historically, leans so heavily on the strength of their unity.

'lol' of the day for me.

Daft, isn't it? Not so much a 'lol' on the inside, though. It's really a shame that this has divided anyone.  Cry

Those who see it as a division are, almost without exception, not in communion with the canonical churches, and, often not in communion with any other Orthodox group. That speaks volumes.

Sorry I don't think this is place for hashing out the OC versus NC debate. I think it's interesting that the moderators are allowing our World Orthodox members to bash the True Orthodox, but when I try to put in a word for the other side I'm censured for bringing up inappropriate topics in the Convert forum.

I have thought about this for several hours and decided to post a response.

Speaking the truth can hardly be described as 'bashing.' It is an undeniable truth that the overwhelming majority of the planet's Orthodox Churches are in Communion with each other - notwithstanding the Calender issue.

However, it is equally true that those groups which broke away from the Church over this and related, issues, view the calendar as being a dogmatic, doctrinal basis for division. They have added the redundant terms of 'true' or 'genuine' to their names. If you choose to call yourself 'true' or 'genuine', it is only logical to assume that one would regards others as 'untrue' or 'non-genuine.'

Folks are free to call themselves what they want to, but it is fair game to remind our non-Orthodox readers and subscribers that these groups do not represent a large voice with international Orthodoxy. For our Catholic friends, I think it would be fair to make what is an imperfect analogy between them and the SSPX in order to better understand where they fit in the larger picture of the Orthodox Church.  I personally do not view them as being without 'grace' - that is not for me to say or judge - nor do I doubt the depth, passion and sincerity of their beliefs. Nevertheless, I view their position as being misguided as, like many, I do not view the calendar as a Church-dividing issue (By this I mean dividing the Church looking at the"big picture" - not the parish or family level - that is another question for another day.)


It wasn't the statement of that fact that bothered me, but the clearly polemical tone with which LBK and another poster contributed to this topic, with Ionis even using the word "schismatic" to describe the True Orthodox.

I wonder if this thread shouldn't be moved somewhere where intra-Orthodox polemics are appropriate. I know that the OP was making an innocent inquiry into what the Old Calendar/New Calendar division was all about, and that is appropriate to the Convert forum, and in my first response on this thread I tried to give a merely informational response, explaining what True Orthodoxy was and how the calendar division only forms one part of what True Orthodoxy is about (and why many churches that observe the old calendar are nevertheless not considered True Orthodox), but it seems that it's hard to be "neutral" about this issue, and now I see that posters have taken the liberty of offering their own opinions about the justice or injustice of the Old Calendarist cause, with Ionis calling us "schismatics", which I think is completely inappropriate. In an earlier thread in the Convert forum I committed a similar offense and was rightly censured by the moderator, and I would like to see the same justice imparted here. No intra-Orthodox polemics in the Convert forum is a fair rule.
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« Reply #1771 on: December 27, 2011, 02:02:53 PM »

Astounding that there should be such division over dates in a church which historically, leans so heavily on the strength of their unity.

'lol' of the day for me.

Daft, isn't it? Not so much a 'lol' on the inside, though. It's really a shame that this has divided anyone.  Cry

Those who see it as a division are, almost without exception, not in communion with the canonical churches, and, often not in communion with any other Orthodox group. That speaks volumes.

Sorry I don't think this is place for hashing out the OC versus NC debate. I think it's interesting that the moderators are allowing our World Orthodox members to bash the True Orthodox, but when I try to put in a word for the other side I'm censured for bringing up inappropriate topics in the Convert forum.

I have thought about this for several hours and decided to post a response.

Speaking the truth can hardly be described as 'bashing.' It is an undeniable truth that the overwhelming majority of the planet's Orthodox Churches are in Communion with each other - notwithstanding the Calender issue.

However, it is equally true that those groups which broke away from the Church over this and related, issues, view the calendar as being a dogmatic, doctrinal basis for division. They have added the redundant terms of 'true' or 'genuine' to their names. If you choose to call yourself 'true' or 'genuine', it is only logical to assume that one would regards others as 'untrue' or 'non-genuine.'

Folks are free to call themselves what they want to, but it is fair game to remind our non-Orthodox readers and subscribers that these groups do not represent a large voice with international Orthodoxy. For our Catholic friends, I think it would be fair to make what is an imperfect analogy between them and the SSPX in order to better understand where they fit in the larger picture of the Orthodox Church.  I personally do not view them as being without 'grace' - that is not for me to say or judge - nor do I doubt the depth, passion and sincerity of their beliefs. Nevertheless, I view their position as being misguided as, like many, I do not view the calendar as a Church-dividing issue (By this I mean dividing the Church looking at the"big picture" - not the parish or family level - that is another question for another day.)


It wasn't the statement of that fact that bothered me, but the clearly polemical tone with which LBK and another poster contributed to this topic, with Ionis even using the word "schismatic" to describe the True Orthodox.

I wonder if this thread shouldn't be moved somewhere where intra-Orthodox polemics are appropriate. I know that the OP was making an innocent inquiry into what the Old Calendar/New Calendar division was all about, and that is appropriate to the Convert forum, and in my first response on this thread I tried to give a merely informational response, explaining what True Orthodoxy was and how the calendar division only forms one part of what True Orthodoxy is about (and why many churches that observe the old calendar are nevertheless not considered True Orthodox), but it seems that it's hard to be "neutral" about this issue, and now I see that posters have taken the liberty of offering their own opinions about the justice or injustice of the Old Calendarist cause, with Ionis calling us "schismatics", which I think is completely inappropriate. In an earlier thread in the Convert forum I committed a similar offense and was rightly censured by the moderator, and I would like to see the same justice imparted here. No intra-Orthodox polemics in the Convert forum is a fair rule.

Did you use the Report to Moderator function?
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« Reply #1772 on: December 27, 2011, 02:05:44 PM »

Astounding that there should be such division over dates in a church which historically, leans so heavily on the strength of their unity.

'lol' of the day for me.

Daft, isn't it? Not so much a 'lol' on the inside, though. It's really a shame that this has divided anyone.  Cry

Those who see it as a division are, almost without exception, not in communion with the canonical churches, and, often not in communion with any other Orthodox group. That speaks volumes.

Sorry I don't think this is place for hashing out the OC versus NC debate. I think it's interesting that the moderators are allowing our World Orthodox members to bash the True Orthodox, but when I try to put in a word for the other side I'm censured for bringing up inappropriate topics in the Convert forum.

I have thought about this for several hours and decided to post a response.

Speaking the truth can hardly be described as 'bashing.' It is an undeniable truth that the overwhelming majority of the planet's Orthodox Churches are in Communion with each other - notwithstanding the Calender issue.

However, it is equally true that those groups which broke away from the Church over this and related, issues, view the calendar as being a dogmatic, doctrinal basis for division. They have added the redundant terms of 'true' or 'genuine' to their names. If you choose to call yourself 'true' or 'genuine', it is only logical to assume that one would regards others as 'untrue' or 'non-genuine.'

Folks are free to call themselves what they want to, but it is fair game to remind our non-Orthodox readers and subscribers that these groups do not represent a large voice with international Orthodoxy. For our Catholic friends, I think it would be fair to make what is an imperfect analogy between them and the SSPX in order to better understand where they fit in the larger picture of the Orthodox Church.  I personally do not view them as being without 'grace' - that is not for me to say or judge - nor do I doubt the depth, passion and sincerity of their beliefs. Nevertheless, I view their position as being misguided as, like many, I do not view the calendar as a Church-dividing issue (By this I mean dividing the Church looking at the"big picture" - not the parish or family level - that is another question for another day.)


It wasn't the statement of that fact that bothered me, but the clearly polemical tone with which LBK and another poster contributed to this topic, with Ionis even using the word "schismatic" to describe the True Orthodox.

I wonder if this thread shouldn't be moved somewhere where intra-Orthodox polemics are appropriate. I know that the OP was making an innocent inquiry into what the Old Calendar/New Calendar division was all about, and that is appropriate to the Convert forum, and in my first response on this thread I tried to give a merely informational response, explaining what True Orthodoxy was and how the calendar division only forms one part of what True Orthodoxy is about (and why many churches that observe the old calendar are nevertheless not considered True Orthodox), but it seems that it's hard to be "neutral" about this issue, and now I see that posters have taken the liberty of offering their own opinions about the justice or injustice of the Old Calendarist cause, with Ionis calling us "schismatics", which I think is completely inappropriate. In an earlier thread in the Convert forum I committed a similar offense and was rightly censured by the moderator, and I would like to see the same justice imparted here. No intra-Orthodox polemics in the Convert forum is a fair rule.

Did you use the Report to Moderator function?

Yes.
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« Reply #1773 on: December 27, 2011, 06:21:53 PM »

If you are the kind of "Orthodox" Christian who's entire religious life is summed up by going to Church once a week, then the calendar is a stupid issue to get upset about.  One the other hand, if you closely follow a prayer rule which includes reading the lives of the Saints commemorated for the day, and if you observe a prayer rule in the home that addressed the Saint(s) for the day, the calendar issue becomes quite important.  While it is not a reason to call people names and say they are without Grace, it is a real mess when you try to hold to a rule that includes the Saints and then go to Church to find that they are commemorating a Saint that you won't be commemorating for another two weeks.  The proper commemoration of the Saints is a major part of a properly done Vespers, Matins, and even the Liturgy when the verses are used between the Beatitudes as is the ROCOR custom.  What I think is sad is that one would thing that an issue such as this, given that the Saints do so much for us, is meaningless.

Wow, something so meaningless as dates on a calendar caused the church to devide!
Vvery sad.

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« Reply #1774 on: December 27, 2011, 06:36:57 PM »

Astounding that there should be such division over dates in a church which historically, leans so heavily on the strength of their unity.

'lol' of the day for me.

Daft, isn't it? Not so much a 'lol' on the inside, though. It's really a shame that this has divided anyone.  Cry

Those who see it as a division are, almost without exception, not in communion with the canonical churches, and, often not in communion with any other Orthodox group. That speaks volumes.

I suppose that might be true, but the damage I have seen it do to relationships is horrible, might I risk saying, unChristian.

I say it is daft not to apply blame on either side, but to point out that as human beings we are simply daft. We have to find something to disagree on, it makes us feel more important than the other guy. How we can let this issue get in the way of fellowship is beyond me, but then it might be super pious to see this as important. I don't claim to be pious; super or otherwise. So again, I say it's a shame that this issue has divided anyone.
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« Reply #1775 on: December 27, 2011, 06:43:15 PM »

If you are the kind of "Orthodox" Christian who's entire religious life is summed up by going to Church once a week, then the calendar is a stupid issue to get upset about.  One the other hand, if you closely follow a prayer rule which includes reading the lives of the Saints commemorated for the day, and if you observe a prayer rule in the home that addressed the Saint(s) for the day, the calendar issue becomes quite important.  While it is not a reason to call people names and say they are without Grace, it is a real mess when you try to hold to a rule that includes the Saints and then go to Church to find that they are commemorating a Saint that you won't be commemorating for another two weeks.  The proper commemoration of the Saints is a major part of a properly done Vespers, Matins, and even the Liturgy when the verses are used between the Beatitudes as is the ROCOR custom.  What I think is sad is that one would thing that an issue such as this, given that the Saints do so much for us, is meaningless.

While I don't believe the calendar issue is trivial, I believe that more is made about it than there is. It seems that people like to dig in their heels about being either Julian or Revised Julian calendar, with no room for discussion.

It's a bit sad, for example, that although the Moscow Patriarch is in full communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch, the two Patriarch's and their respective flocks celebrate the Nativity of our Lord on different days of the year.

One would think that a simple meeting with the respective Church heads could resolve this issue, as no issues of dogma need to be resolved. This is a scheduling issue. The Patriarchs should resolve this to help bring unity among Orthodox Christians, and to present a more united front to the world.

How can we say we have a Universal faith, when we don't even celebrate most of the major feasts of the year together?
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« Reply #1776 on: December 27, 2011, 06:49:39 PM »

If you are the kind of "Orthodox" Christian who's entire religious life is summed up by going to Church once a week, then the calendar is a stupid issue to get upset about.  One the other hand, if you closely follow a prayer rule which includes reading the lives of the Saints commemorated for the day, and if you observe a prayer rule in the home that addressed the Saint(s) for the day, the calendar issue becomes quite important.  While it is not a reason to call people names and say they are without Grace, it is a real mess when you try to hold to a rule that includes the Saints and then go to Church to find that they are commemorating a Saint that you won't be commemorating for another two weeks.  The proper commemoration of the Saints is a major part of a properly done Vespers, Matins, and even the Liturgy when the verses are used between the Beatitudes as is the ROCOR custom.  What I think is sad is that one would thing that an issue such as this, given that the Saints do so much for us, is meaningless.

Wow, something so meaningless as dates on a calendar caused the church to devide!
Vvery sad.


Much of what you say, I agree with. It is particularly jarring in the numerous jurisdictions which have parishes on either the RJC or the traditional Julian one.

However, let us not judge the quality or character of anyone else's faith and how they practice it. It is one thing to strive to the best of one's own ability to attend all the services, say all the prayers and so on, but our Lord Himself warned us on numerous occasions not to be so wrapped up in what we do so as to criticize another for doing less.

This whole calendar issue makes everyone 'preachy' whether they are for, against or ambivalent. The national churches did none of us any favor by 'Balkanizing' our collective observances of the Feasts. However, it is what it is and all of us, myself included, have to be careful not to get too full of our own self in the discussion.

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« Reply #1777 on: December 27, 2011, 06:53:49 PM »

If you are the kind of "Orthodox" Christian who's entire religious life is summed up by going to Church once a week, then the calendar is a stupid issue to get upset about.  One the other hand, if you closely follow a prayer rule which includes reading the lives of the Saints commemorated for the day, and if you observe a prayer rule in the home that addressed the Saint(s) for the day, the calendar issue becomes quite important.  While it is not a reason to call people names and say they are without Grace, it is a real mess when you try to hold to a rule that includes the Saints and then go to Church to find that they are commemorating a Saint that you won't be commemorating for another two weeks.  The proper commemoration of the Saints is a major part of a properly done Vespers, Matins, and even the Liturgy when the verses are used between the Beatitudes as is the ROCOR custom.  What I think is sad is that one would thing that an issue such as this, given that the Saints do so much for us, is meaningless.

You mean it's not meaningless to the 0,1% of the believers, am I correct?

How can we say we have a Universal faith, when we don't even celebrate most of the major feasts of the year together?

Do you want the Church to abolish time zones?
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« Reply #1778 on: December 27, 2011, 07:05:44 PM »

Do you want the Church to abolish time zones?

There is a difference between celebrations being separated due to natural causes put in place by God (when the sun rises, sets on a particular city) and calendar divisions created by man.

You and I both know this, and what I am proposing is not irrational.
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« Reply #1779 on: December 27, 2011, 07:36:08 PM »

How can we say we have a Universal faith, when we don't even celebrate most of the major feasts of the year together?

Doesn't seem to have been a problem for the Fathers of the first millennium.
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« Reply #1780 on: December 27, 2011, 07:54:07 PM »

How can we say we have a Universal faith, when we don't even celebrate most of the major feasts of the year together?

Doesn't seem to have been a problem for the Fathers of the first millennium.

There weren't any calendar issues then.

The Church was once united in our celebration and observances of the feasts and fasts; it shouldn't be that hard to be united on this issue once again. Again, no dogma or doctrine needs to be established or revised.

This is simply a scheduling issue.
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« Reply #1781 on: December 27, 2011, 08:20:17 PM »

How can we say we have a Universal faith, when we don't even celebrate most of the major feasts of the year together?

Doesn't seem to have been a problem for the Fathers of the first millennium.

There weren't any calendar issues then.

The Church was once united in our celebration and observances of the feasts and fasts; it shouldn't be that hard to be united on this issue once again. Again, no dogma or doctrine needs to be established or revised.

This is simply a scheduling issue.

You're correct that there weren't any calendar issues. But incorrect if you are asserting that the Church was 'united in our celebration and observances of the feasts and fasts' during the first millenium--which was my point. This is covered (repeatedly) in the pinned Calendar thread, but there were at least 4 different calendars in use in various parts of the Church in the first millennium (this is why the Copts and Armenians today use a different calendars from each other or from the EO churches). The only feast that there was any effort to 'unite' was Pascha--this was done at the 1st Ecumenical Council. Other than that, the Fathers of the Councils celebrated feasts and fasts on different calendars and no one thought this was an issue in proclaiming the Catholic ("Universal") faith.
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« Reply #1782 on: December 27, 2011, 08:27:02 PM »

Do you want the Church to abolish time zones?

That would be so awesome.

Being the Third Moscow, enjoy living on EST the rest of the world!
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« Reply #1783 on: December 27, 2011, 09:35:13 PM »

If you are the kind of "Orthodox" Christian who's entire religious life is summed up by going to Church once a week, then the calendar is a stupid issue to get upset about.  One the other hand, if you closely follow a prayer rule which includes reading the lives of the Saints commemorated for the day, and if you observe a prayer rule in the home that addressed the Saint(s) for the day, the calendar issue becomes quite important.  While it is not a reason to call people names and say they are without Grace, it is a real mess when you try to hold to a rule that includes the Saints and then go to Church to find that they are commemorating a Saint that you won't be commemorating for another two weeks.  The proper commemoration of the Saints is a major part of a properly done Vespers, Matins, and even the Liturgy when the verses are used between the Beatitudes as is the ROCOR custom.  What I think is sad is that one would thing that an issue such as this, given that the Saints do so much for us, is meaningless.

Wow, something so meaningless as dates on a calendar caused the church to devide!
Vvery sad.


Since you quoated me, guess i should respond:

The type of orthodox i am, well... thats only God's and my biz.

I assume you are the second type and i see your problem.

BUT-come on its a calaner change, whats with all the hoopla.

say you prayers at home then go to church 2 weeks late and celebrate the saint.


You know what i think...i think egos got involved and feathers were ruffled.

prob went something like this

Ok you guys, as of today, we are going to change calanders. angel
oh no were not. Huh
yes we are. Cry
no were not. Tongue
how dare you say to me were not, dont you know who i am! police
you cant make us. laugh
bla bla blaa
Same old human nature ego doodo.

(love smilies)
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« Reply #1784 on: December 27, 2011, 09:59:23 PM »

If you are the kind of "Orthodox" Christian who's entire religious life is summed up by going to Church once a week, then the calendar is a stupid issue to get upset about.  One the other hand, if you closely follow a prayer rule which includes reading the lives of the Saints commemorated for the day, and if you observe a prayer rule in the home that addressed the Saint(s) for the day, the calendar issue becomes quite important.  While it is not a reason to call people names and say they are without Grace, it is a real mess when you try to hold to a rule that includes the Saints and then go to Church to find that they are commemorating a Saint that you won't be commemorating for another two weeks.  The proper commemoration of the Saints is a major part of a properly done Vespers, Matins, and even the Liturgy when the verses are used between the Beatitudes as is the ROCOR custom.  What I think is sad is that one would thing that an issue such as this, given that the Saints do so much for us, is meaningless.
Meh. Try moving to a different city in the middle of the year from an OCA parish to a Greek/Antiochian or vice versa with the old wall calendar. Sure, the older saints are all on the same day, but later Russian or Greek saints get commemorated on different days, the fasting restrictions are different depending on how important the Mother Country views the saint in question, and some weeks there are even different lectionary readings.

Let's face it, Julian/Revised Julian aside, organized religion Orthodoxy ain't.
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« Reply #1785 on: December 27, 2011, 10:09:01 PM »


Let's face it, Julian/Revised Julian aside, organized religion Orthodoxy ain't.

Orthodoxy - Disorganised religion at its finest
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« Reply #1786 on: December 28, 2011, 10:21:14 AM »


Let's face it, Julian/Revised Julian aside, organized religion Orthodoxy ain't.

Orthodoxy - Disorganised religion at its finest

The 20th century American humorist and social observer, Will Rogers, was asked during the Great Depression if he belonged to an organized political party. He answered, no, he was a Democrat.  Smiley

 
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« Reply #1787 on: January 04, 2012, 12:31:40 PM »

++posting later on, subscribing++
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« Reply #1788 on: January 04, 2012, 02:34:02 PM »

If you are the kind of "Orthodox" Christian who's entire religious life is summed up by going to Church once a week, then the calendar is a stupid issue to get upset about.  One the other hand, if you closely follow a prayer rule which includes reading the lives of the Saints commemorated for the day, and if you observe a prayer rule in the home that addressed the Saint(s) for the day, the calendar issue becomes quite important.  While it is not a reason to call people names and say they are without Grace, it is a real mess when you try to hold to a rule that includes the Saints and then go to Church to find that they are commemorating a Saint that you won't be commemorating for another two weeks.  The proper commemoration of the Saints is a major part of a properly done Vespers, Matins, and even the Liturgy when the verses are used between the Beatitudes as is the ROCOR custom.  What I think is sad is that one would thing that an issue such as this, given that the Saints do so much for us, is meaningless.

While I don't believe the calendar issue is trivial, I believe that more is made about it than there is. It seems that people like to dig in their heels about being either Julian or Revised Julian calendar, with no room for discussion.

It's a bit sad, for example, that although the Moscow Patriarch is in full communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch, the two Patriarch's and their respective flocks celebrate the Nativity of our Lord on different days of the year.

One would think that a simple meeting with the respective Church heads could resolve this issue, as no issues of dogma need to be resolved. This is a scheduling issue. The Patriarchs should resolve this to help bring unity among Orthodox Christians, and to present a more united front to the world.

How can we say we have a Universal faith, when we don't even celebrate most of the major feasts of the year together?

There’s something to this, but I am not sure I’d make the leap of equating uniformity with universality. To me, the larger point is that both celebrate the Incarnation of Our Lord, and that in both cases the teachings underlying the celebration are orthodox, as well as Orthodox. Personally, I view this diversity of calendar-ism as an opportunity to be inspired by the beauty of the feasts more fully. I can observe them in my (New Calendar) OCA parish, and if I choose, I can then observe them 13 days later at the (Old Calendar) ROCOR parish up the road. (I only commune once, though, in my home parish.)

It always seems to me that a lot of this discussion is overwhelming some basic principles of our spiritual life. Obedience, for instance. There’s absolutely no reason for me to concern myself with the matter of the calendar, except in choosing the jurisdiction I feel called to worship in. This presupposes that I trust its priests and hierarchs. If that’s the case, then I should simply follow them, whichever calendar they use, and concentrate on keeping Christ’s covenant “and remembering His commandments to do them.” The OCA uses the new calendar; ROCOR uses the old one. Both are Big and little ‘o’ Orthodox. As far as I’m aware, Christ Himself said nothing about calendar preferences. He followed the Jewish one.
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« Reply #1789 on: January 04, 2012, 02:41:31 PM »

(I only commune once, though, in my home parish.)

Why?
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« Reply #1790 on: January 04, 2012, 02:43:31 PM »

"Do not read rebellious books or pamphlets that mention Church matters if you wish to be calm, since you are not responsible for such serious affairs.  You have need of books that will assist in your repentance.  If you want to help the Church, correct yourself, and immediately amendment is made to a small part of the Church.  Naturally, if everyone did this, then the Church would be put in order."

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« Reply #1791 on: January 04, 2012, 10:57:59 PM »

(I only commune once, though, in my home parish.)

Why?


I had the same thought as well?
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« Reply #1792 on: January 05, 2012, 12:22:10 AM »

(I only commune once, though, in my home parish.)

Why?


I had the same thought as well?
I do commune in both parishes, just not for the same feast.
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« Reply #1793 on: January 05, 2012, 05:39:48 AM »

(I only commune once, though, in my home parish.)

Why?


I had the same thought as well?
I do commune in both parishes, just not for the same feast.

But what is the reason?
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« Reply #1794 on: January 05, 2012, 12:29:02 PM »

(I only commune once, though, in my home parish.)

Why?


I had the same thought as well?
I do commune in both parishes, just not for the same feast.

But what is the reason?

The local GOARCH cathedral has two liturgies on Sundays and feast days. If you attended both, would you commune each time?
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« Reply #1795 on: January 05, 2012, 01:54:14 PM »

(I only commune once, though, in my home parish.)

Why?


I had the same thought as well?
I do commune in both parishes, just not for the same feast.

But what is the reason?

The local GOARCH cathedral has two liturgies on Sundays and feast days. If you attended both, would you commune each time?
But we're not talking about receiving Communion twice on the same calendar day, which is forbidden. We're talking about receiving Communion at two different celebrations of the same feast 13 days apart. There's nothing against that.
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« Reply #1796 on: January 05, 2012, 01:58:59 PM »

If one has any understanding of the cycle of services, one would understand that you do not celebrate the same feast twice.  Christ was born once on this Earth, not twice.  That is why I usually do not attend a new calendar Church on their feast days, unless I know that I am going to miss the feast at my church.  Since the calendar is 13 days apart and the Sundays do not line up, I will attend with my wife on a non-feast day.

(I only commune once, though, in my home parish.)

Why?


I had the same thought as well?
I do commune in both parishes, just not for the same feast.

But what is the reason?

The local GOARCH cathedral has two liturgies on Sundays and feast days. If you attended both, would you commune each time?
But we're not talking about receiving Communion twice on the same calendar day, which is forbidden. We're talking about receiving Communion at two different celebrations of the same feast 13 days apart. There's nothing against that.
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« Reply #1797 on: January 05, 2012, 03:53:36 PM »

So if you attend a Church on Nativity you don't attend Nativity services anymore because you don't like to repeat services? After a few (dozens) of years you will fulfill the calendar and you would be forced to stop attending Church.
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« Reply #1798 on: January 05, 2012, 04:24:36 PM »

That isn't what Punch is saying Michal. He's saying he doesn't celebrate a feast day twice in one year. And I have always been told you don't celebrate the same feast twice in a year. Besides, it just sounds strange to be fasting and hear "A blessed feast day to you all".
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« Reply #1799 on: January 05, 2012, 04:29:09 PM »

But what is the difference between celebrating the same feast twice in two weeks and twice in two years? It's still the same feast.
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