OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 15, 2014, 11:19:39 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Russian Church-Vatican Dialogue at standstill  (Read 6722 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« on: July 09, 2009, 06:23:21 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6199

07 July 2009, 17:57
New page in relations with Vatican yet to be opened - Russian Church

Moscow, July 7, Interfax - There has not been any substantial moment
in the Orthodox-Catholic dialog, said Head of the Moscow Patriarchate
Department for External Church Relations Archbishop Hilarion of Volokolamsk.

"It appears to me that the relations between the Russian Orthodox and
Roman Catholic Churches still lack the specifics which could be
interpreted as the opening of a new page. We are still expecting the
Catholic Church to give some articulate and adequate response the
concerns we have voiced on many occasions," Archbishop Hilarion told
a press conference at the Interfax head office on Tuesday.

At the same time hierarch said he was confident about bringing the
Orthodox-Catholic relations "to a new level of cooperation and mutual
trust" as a result of understanding, both at the formal and basic levels.

"In the modern world, where Christianity is faced with very serious
threats such as belligerent secularism, we are not rivals but allies," he said.

"Today's confrontation, though somewhat weakened over the past few
years, is of no benefit to anyone," he said.

Commenting on a recent statement by Apostolic Nuncio to Russia
Antonio Mennini about the likelihood of raising the status of the
bilateral relations between Vatican and Russia to the level of an
embassy, the archbishop said that the matter lies within the remit of
the inter-governmental, and not inter-church, policy.

Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,990



« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 10:14:28 PM »


"Today's confrontation, though somewhat weakened over the past few
years, is of no benefit to anyone," he said.

What confrontation is he referring to?
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,902


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 10:25:00 PM »

"We are still expecting the Catholic Church to give some articulate and adequate response the
concerns we have voiced on many occasions," Archbishop Hilarion told
a press conference at the Interfax head office on Tuesday.

If he is refering to the MP's repeated request to liquidate the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine or the Latin Catholic Dioceses in Russia he can forget it, it is not going to happen. 
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 10:27:18 PM »


"Today's confrontation, though somewhat weakened over the past few
years, is of no benefit to anyone," he said.

What confrontation is he referring to?


One of the things which Archbishop Hilarion would have in mind is the situation in the Ukraine where Catholics have seized hundreds of Orthodox Churches and refused to be part of a process which was designed to avoid these confrontations.

Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Prospects of Orthodox-Catholic Relations


Paper delivered on 7 October 2002 at the University of St Thomas (St Paul, Minessota, USA), and repeated on 9 October 2002 at the Catholic University of America (Washington D.C).


http://orthodoxeurope.org/print/7/1/2.aspx
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,902


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 11:41:54 PM »


"Today's confrontation, though somewhat weakened over the past few
years, is of no benefit to anyone," he said.

What confrontation is he referring to?


One of the things which Archbishop Hilarion would have in mind is the situation in the Ukraine where Catholics have seized hundreds of Orthodox Churches and refused to be part of a process which was designed to avoid these confrontations.

Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Prospects of Orthodox-Catholic Relations


Paper delivered on 7 October 2002 at the University of St Thomas (St Paul, Minessota, USA), and repeated on 9 October 2002 at the Catholic University of America (Washington D.C).


http://orthodoxeurope.org/print/7/1/2.aspx

You mean the situation where Ukrainian Greek Catholics took back the churches the Communists seized and handed over to the MP and refused to agree to a process rigged to prevent them from regaining their churches like the Romanian Greek Catholics did?


"In 2002, the Parliament passed legislation restituting religious properties confiscated by the communist regime. Some religious or communal property already had been returned to former owners as a result of government decrees or with the agreement of local religious leaders. The center-right government in office between 1996 and 2000 issued four decrees and a government decision, which resulted in the restitution of 100 buildings to religious and national minorities. One of the decrees (94/2000) subsequently became the basis of law 501/2002, described below.


In many cases, religious minorities have not succeeded in regaining possession of the properties despite restitution by these decrees. Many properties returned by decree house government offices, schools, hospitals, or cultural institutions that would require relocation, and lawsuits and protests by current possessors have delayed restitution of the property to rightful owners.


Law 501/2002 should provide for the restitution of all church properties. The buildings used by public institutions (such as museums, schools, and hospitals) are to remain in tenants' hands for a period of 5 years, during which time they are to pay rent to the churches. The majority of church properties belong to this category. However, this law does not address the distinctive and sensitive issue of the Greek Catholic churches, which were confiscated under communist rule in 1948 and handed over to the Orthodox Church. Some religious denominations criticized the law for failing to include a provision to give other buildings in compensation for those that have been demolished. By the final deadline of March 2, 2002, religious denominations submitted 7,568 applications for restitution, according to Law 501, as follows: Orthodox Church, 770; Roman-Catholic Church, 992; Greek Catholic Church, 2,207; Reformed Church, 899; Jewish, 1,809; Evangelical Church, 690; other denominations, 201. The national commission for Law 501 started its activity in 2003 and had restituted 737 buildings, 258 of which were restituted during the period covered by this report.


The Greek Catholic Church was the second largest denomination (approximately 1.5 million adherents out of a population of approximately 15 million) in 1948 when communist authorities outlawed it and dictated its forced merger with the Romanian Orthodox Church. At the time of its banning, the Greek Catholic Church owned more than 2,600 churches and monasteries, which were confiscated by the State and then given to the Orthodox Church, along with other facilities. Other properties of the Greek Catholic Church, such as buildings and agricultural land, became state property.


According to the State Secretariat for Religious Denominations, after 1989 the Greek Catholic Church regained control more than 194 of the churches transferred by the communists to the Orthodox Church; the Greek Catholics claim that they have received only 178 such properties. The Greek Catholic Church has very few places of worship. Many followers still are compelled to hold services in public places (more than 150 cases, according to Greek Catholic reports) or in the open (at least 2 such cases were reported). In 1992, the Government adopted a decree that listed 80 properties (that were not places of worship) owned by the Greek Catholic Church to be returned. After the restitution of 60 to 65 properties, including schools and hospitals (the most important buildings, including three schools in Cluj were not restituted), no further progress was made. In some cases, Orthodox priests whose families had been Greek Catholics converted back to Greek Catholicism and brought their parishes and churches with them to the Greek Catholic Church. In several counties, in particular in Transylvania, local Orthodox leaders gave up smaller country churches voluntarily. For example, in the early 1990s in the Diocese of Lugoj in the southwestern part of the country, local Orthodox Church representatives reached agreement on the return of an estimated 160 churches; however, for the most part, Orthodox leaders refused to return churches to the Greek Catholics. Between July 2004 and April 2005, the Greek Catholic Church recovered only two churches, a sharp decline in numbers compared to the previous year.


In the early 1990s, the Orthodox Archbishop of Timisoara, Nicolae Corneanu, returned approximately 50 churches, including the cathedral in Lugoj, to the Greek Catholic Church. However, because of his actions, the Orthodox Holy Synod marginalized Archbishop Corneanu, and his fellow clergymen criticized him.


A 1990 government decree set up a joint Orthodox and Greek Catholic committee at the national level to resolve the situation of former Greek Catholic churches. The committee met for the first time in 1998, had three meetings in 1999, and then met annually after 2000, but the Orthodox Church resisted efforts to resolve the problem in this forum. The courts refused in many cases to consider Greek Catholic lawsuits seeking restitution, citing the 1990 decree establishing the joint committee to resolve the issue. In August 2004, however, the Government amended the 1990 decree that stipulated dialogue as the only means to decide on the situation of the confiscated Greek Catholic churches to give to the Greek Catholic Church the right to go to court whenever dialogue fails. The new Parliament, elected in November 2004, rejected the amending decree but the President refused to sign the rejection law and sent it back to Parliament for revision in March 2005, arguing that the restitution of Greek Catholic churches is one of the political criteria for the country's EU accession. The amending decree was pending Parliament's revision and passage as a law. In the interim, the Government's August 2004 amendment remained in force.


In early June 2005, the Prime Minister, together with the Minister of Culture and Religious Affairs, discussed the restitution of Greek Catholic churches with the Orthodox Patriarch, who had promised to restitute two cathedrals in Oradea and Gherla. The promise to restitute was for an unspecified date, only "after the completion of repair and restoration works," in addition to a promise "to restitute in a symbolic manner" a church in Bucharest. Neither promise produced tangible results, and according to the Greek Catholic Church, the local Orthodox hierarchs refused to consider any restitution proposals of the churches in question.


From the initial property list of 2,600 seized churches, the Greek Catholic Church has reduced the number of its claims to fewer than 300. According to Greek Catholic reports, only 16 churches were restituted as the result of the joint committee's meetings. The State Secretariat for Religious Denominations reported that 34 churches were restituted through dialogue between the two religions. Restitution of the existing churches is important to both sides because local residents are likely to attend the church whether it is Greek Catholic or Orthodox. Thus the number of members and share of the state budget allocation for religions is at stake.


All meetings of the joint committee followed the same pattern: the Greek Catholic Church would reiterate its core claim, i.e. the restitution of its former cathedrals and district churches, and the return of one church in localities where there are two churches and one of them belonged to the Greek Catholics; whereas the Orthodox Church would reply that the will of the majority of believers should be taken into account with regard to restitution, and restitution problems should be solved by dialogue. It would also call for an end to all ongoing lawsuits and would argue that the construction of new churches is the only solution to existing conflicts. The dialogue was interrupted in 2004, however, when the committee did not meet, apparently because the Orthodox Church was not satisfied with the answer of the Greek Catholic Church to a letter that urged it to choose between dialogue and court actions.


Despite the stated desire for dialogue, the Orthodox Church has demolished Greek Catholic churches under various pretexts. For example, Greek Catholic churches (some of them historical monuments) were demolished in Vadu Izei (Maramures County), Baisoara (Cluj County), Smig (Sibiu County), Tritenii de Jos (Cluj County), Craiova (Dolj County), and Urca (Cluj County). Another church that continued to be threatened with demolition was in Ungheni (Mures County). In this instance, the Orthodox Church continued construction of a new church, which was being built around the Greek Catholic Church. Despite a court order to halt construction, the Orthodox Church continued work close to the church of a famous Greek Catholic Monastery of Nicula (Cluj County). Over a number of years, the Orthodox Church repeatedly rejected the Greek Catholic requests for alternating service in a total of 227 localities. According to the State Secretariat for Religious Denominations, the 2 churches hold alternate services in 24 localities. The Government failed to keep its 2002 promise to help the Greek Catholic Church build 50 new wooden churches.


The Special Commission for the Restitution of Real Estate that Belonged to Religious Denominations, using Law 501/2002, had returned 63 of the 2,207 reclaimed buildings to the Greek Catholic Church, 10 of which were returned during the period covered by this report.


In April 2005, Greek Catholic believers in the country and throughout the world redistributed a memorandum, addressed in 2002 to the President, Prime Minister, and other state authorities complaining about discrimination against their Church and calling for the restitution of the Greek Catholic churches and other assets confiscated under communist rule. The only reaction by the authorities came from the State Secretary for Religious Denominations, who sent a letter to the authors of the memorandum, declaring that the issue of the Greek Catholic churches was complex and sensitive and that the establishment of the commission for dialogue was a wise solution. The State Secretary stated that a Government-sponsored bill amending the law restituting religious property would solve this problem. However, the bill refers to the restitution of churches that are in the possession of the State, while Greek Catholic churches pending restitution are in the possession of the Romanian Orthodox Church.


In October 2004, then President Ion Iliescu was received by Pope John Paul II, who discussed the relationships among Christian religions in the country and expressed concern about Catholic Church properties, in particular those of the Greek Catholic Church.


Local and state authorities also ignored letters and appeals complaining about discrimination against the Greek Catholic Church, sent by Greek Catholic bishops and priests in 2003 and in January and February 2004. The authorities did not respond to street protests by Greek Catholics in 2003.


Even when courts accept lawsuits regarding Greek Catholic churches, in many cases restitution was not granted. For example, in March 2004 after a 14-year long lawsuit, a Bucharest court of appeal rejected the restitution claim for the most important Greek Catholic Church in Bucharest, despite recognizing that the Greek Catholic Church owned the church. The Supreme Court accepted an appeal by the Greek Catholic Church and returned the case to a lower court for revision. The case was pending at the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR)."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51575.htm
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 12:12:23 AM »

Way off topic, Deacon.  It concerns the Russian Church-Vatican dialogue, not Romania.


You mean the situation where Ukrainian Greek Catholics took back the churches the Communists seized and handed over to the MP and refused to agree to a process rigged to prevent them from regaining their churches like the Romanian Greek Catholics did?


"In 2002, the Parliament passed legislation restituting religious properties confiscated by the communist regime. Some religious or communal property already had been returned to former owners as a result of government decrees or with the agreement of local religious leaders. The center-right government in office between 1996 and 2000 issued four decrees and a government decision, which resulted in the restitution of 100 buildings to religious and national minorities. One of the decrees (94/2000) subsequently became the basis of law 501/2002, described below.


In many cases, religious minorities have not succeeded in regaining possession of the properties despite restitution by these decrees. Many properties returned by decree house government offices, schools, hospitals, or cultural institutions that would require relocation, and lawsuits and protests by current possessors have delayed restitution of the property to rightful owners.


Law 501/2002 should provide for the restitution of all church properties. The buildings used by public institutions (such as museums, schools, and hospitals) are to remain in tenants' hands for a period of 5 years, during which time they are to pay rent to the churches. The majority of church properties belong to this category. However, this law does not address the distinctive and sensitive issue of the Greek Catholic churches, which were confiscated under communist rule in 1948 and handed over to the Orthodox Church. Some religious denominations criticized the law for failing to include a provision to give other buildings in compensation for those that have been demolished. By the final deadline of March 2, 2002, religious denominations submitted 7,568 applications for restitution, according to Law 501, as follows: Orthodox Church, 770; Roman-Catholic Church, 992; Greek Catholic Church, 2,207; Reformed Church, 899; Jewish, 1,809; Evangelical Church, 690; other denominations, 201. The national commission for Law 501 started its activity in 2003 and had restituted 737 buildings, 258 of which were restituted during the period covered by this report.


The Greek Catholic Church was the second largest denomination (approximately 1.5 million adherents out of a population of approximately 15 million) in 1948 when communist authorities outlawed it and dictated its forced merger with the Romanian Orthodox Church. At the time of its banning, the Greek Catholic Church owned more than 2,600 churches and monasteries, which were confiscated by the State and then given to the Orthodox Church, along with other facilities. Other properties of the Greek Catholic Church, such as buildings and agricultural land, became state property.


According to the State Secretariat for Religious Denominations, after 1989 the Greek Catholic Church regained control more than 194 of the churches transferred by the communists to the Orthodox Church; the Greek Catholics claim that they have received only 178 such properties. The Greek Catholic Church has very few places of worship. Many followers still are compelled to hold services in public places (more than 150 cases, according to Greek Catholic reports) or in the open (at least 2 such cases were reported). In 1992, the Government adopted a decree that listed 80 properties (that were not places of worship) owned by the Greek Catholic Church to be returned. After the restitution of 60 to 65 properties, including schools and hospitals (the most important buildings, including three schools in Cluj were not restituted), no further progress was made. In some cases, Orthodox priests whose families had been Greek Catholics converted back to Greek Catholicism and brought their parishes and churches with them to the Greek Catholic Church. In several counties, in particular in Transylvania, local Orthodox leaders gave up smaller country churches voluntarily. For example, in the early 1990s in the Diocese of Lugoj in the southwestern part of the country, local Orthodox Church representatives reached agreement on the return of an estimated 160 churches; however, for the most part, Orthodox leaders refused to return churches to the Greek Catholics. Between July 2004 and April 2005, the Greek Catholic Church recovered only two churches, a sharp decline in numbers compared to the previous year.


In the early 1990s, the Orthodox Archbishop of Timisoara, Nicolae Corneanu, returned approximately 50 churches, including the cathedral in Lugoj, to the Greek Catholic Church. However, because of his actions, the Orthodox Holy Synod marginalized Archbishop Corneanu, and his fellow clergymen criticized him.


A 1990 government decree set up a joint Orthodox and Greek Catholic committee at the national level to resolve the situation of former Greek Catholic churches. The committee met for the first time in 1998, had three meetings in 1999, and then met annually after 2000, but the Orthodox Church resisted efforts to resolve the problem in this forum. The courts refused in many cases to consider Greek Catholic lawsuits seeking restitution, citing the 1990 decree establishing the joint committee to resolve the issue. In August 2004, however, the Government amended the 1990 decree that stipulated dialogue as the only means to decide on the situation of the confiscated Greek Catholic churches to give to the Greek Catholic Church the right to go to court whenever dialogue fails. The new Parliament, elected in November 2004, rejected the amending decree but the President refused to sign the rejection law and sent it back to Parliament for revision in March 2005, arguing that the restitution of Greek Catholic churches is one of the political criteria for the country's EU accession. The amending decree was pending Parliament's revision and passage as a law. In the interim, the Government's August 2004 amendment remained in force.


In early June 2005, the Prime Minister, together with the Minister of Culture and Religious Affairs, discussed the restitution of Greek Catholic churches with the Orthodox Patriarch, who had promised to restitute two cathedrals in Oradea and Gherla. The promise to restitute was for an unspecified date, only "after the completion of repair and restoration works," in addition to a promise "to restitute in a symbolic manner" a church in Bucharest. Neither promise produced tangible results, and according to the Greek Catholic Church, the local Orthodox hierarchs refused to consider any restitution proposals of the churches in question.


From the initial property list of 2,600 seized churches, the Greek Catholic Church has reduced the number of its claims to fewer than 300. According to Greek Catholic reports, only 16 churches were restituted as the result of the joint committee's meetings. The State Secretariat for Religious Denominations reported that 34 churches were restituted through dialogue between the two religions. Restitution of the existing churches is important to both sides because local residents are likely to attend the church whether it is Greek Catholic or Orthodox. Thus the number of members and share of the state budget allocation for religions is at stake.


All meetings of the joint committee followed the same pattern: the Greek Catholic Church would reiterate its core claim, i.e. the restitution of its former cathedrals and district churches, and the return of one church in localities where there are two churches and one of them belonged to the Greek Catholics; whereas the Orthodox Church would reply that the will of the majority of believers should be taken into account with regard to restitution, and restitution problems should be solved by dialogue. It would also call for an end to all ongoing lawsuits and would argue that the construction of new churches is the only solution to existing conflicts. The dialogue was interrupted in 2004, however, when the committee did not meet, apparently because the Orthodox Church was not satisfied with the answer of the Greek Catholic Church to a letter that urged it to choose between dialogue and court actions.


Despite the stated desire for dialogue, the Orthodox Church has demolished Greek Catholic churches under various pretexts. For example, Greek Catholic churches (some of them historical monuments) were demolished in Vadu Izei (Maramures County), Baisoara (Cluj County), Smig (Sibiu County), Tritenii de Jos (Cluj County), Craiova (Dolj County), and Urca (Cluj County). Another church that continued to be threatened with demolition was in Ungheni (Mures County). In this instance, the Orthodox Church continued construction of a new church, which was being built around the Greek Catholic Church. Despite a court order to halt construction, the Orthodox Church continued work close to the church of a famous Greek Catholic Monastery of Nicula (Cluj County). Over a number of years, the Orthodox Church repeatedly rejected the Greek Catholic requests for alternating service in a total of 227 localities. According to the State Secretariat for Religious Denominations, the 2 churches hold alternate services in 24 localities. The Government failed to keep its 2002 promise to help the Greek Catholic Church build 50 new wooden churches.


The Special Commission for the Restitution of Real Estate that Belonged to Religious Denominations, using Law 501/2002, had returned 63 of the 2,207 reclaimed buildings to the Greek Catholic Church, 10 of which were returned during the period covered by this report.


In April 2005, Greek Catholic believers in the country and throughout the world redistributed a memorandum, addressed in 2002 to the President, Prime Minister, and other state authorities complaining about discrimination against their Church and calling for the restitution of the Greek Catholic churches and other assets confiscated under communist rule. The only reaction by the authorities came from the State Secretary for Religious Denominations, who sent a letter to the authors of the memorandum, declaring that the issue of the Greek Catholic churches was complex and sensitive and that the establishment of the commission for dialogue was a wise solution. The State Secretary stated that a Government-sponsored bill amending the law restituting religious property would solve this problem. However, the bill refers to the restitution of churches that are in the possession of the State, while Greek Catholic churches pending restitution are in the possession of the Romanian Orthodox Church.


In October 2004, then President Ion Iliescu was received by Pope John Paul II, who discussed the relationships among Christian religions in the country and expressed concern about Catholic Church properties, in particular those of the Greek Catholic Church.


Local and state authorities also ignored letters and appeals complaining about discrimination against the Greek Catholic Church, sent by Greek Catholic bishops and priests in 2003 and in January and February 2004. The authorities did not respond to street protests by Greek Catholics in 2003.


Even when courts accept lawsuits regarding Greek Catholic churches, in many cases restitution was not granted. For example, in March 2004 after a 14-year long lawsuit, a Bucharest court of appeal rejected the restitution claim for the most important Greek Catholic Church in Bucharest, despite recognizing that the Greek Catholic Church owned the church. The Supreme Court accepted an appeal by the Greek Catholic Church and returned the case to a lower court for revision. The case was pending at the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR)."
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51575.htm

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 12:13:11 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,902


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2009, 12:27:24 AM »

Fr.  Ambrose,

Not at all.  You cited the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church's failure to adhere to the infamous "quadpartite" agreement as one of the MP's concerns.  The situation in Romania proves they were justified in leaving the table.  Had they stayed, the MP would be doing to them what the Romanian Orthodox are doing to the Romanian Greek Catholics now.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2009, 02:30:18 PM »

Way off topic, Deacon.  It concerns the Russian Church-Vatican dialogue, not Romania.


Exactly Father Ambrose!  It's like comparing apples with oranges.  Russia and Romania are two differnt countries.   The question is -  Why did the UGCC and the Vatican sign the agreement in the first place if they had no intention of abiding by it?  What Bishop Hilaron is staitng is that both the UGCC and the Vatican cannot be trusted and referring to the Quadripartite Agreement as a perfect example.

I remember posting about the Quadripartite Agreement when it was signed on the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum.  And for almost two years the response was that no such agreement even existed!
 
Orthodoc
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 02:31:57 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,902


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 05:50:55 PM »

Way off topic, Deacon.  It concerns the Russian Church-Vatican dialogue, not Romania.


Exactly Father Ambrose!  It's like comparing apples with oranges.  Russia and Romania are two differnt countries.   The question is -  Why did the UGCC and the Vatican sign the agreement in the first place if they had no intention of abiding by it?  What Bishop Hilaron is staitng is that both the UGCC and the Vatican cannot be trusted and referring to the Quadripartite Agreement as a perfect example.

I remember posting about the Quadripartite Agreement when it was signed on the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum.  And for almost two years the response was that no such agreement even existed!
 
Orthodoc

It is hardly comparing apples and oranges to compare two Orthodox Churches' liquidation of two Greek Catholic Churches and their continued treatment of same.  The Vatican wanted the UGCC to adhere to the agreement but the UGCC was smart enough to realize the MP had no intention of giving anything back and put their survival before the Vatican's ecumenical aspirations.  The Romanian Orthodox Church's behavior is proof the UGCC did the right thing.    Your just mad the UGCC wasn't as naive as the RGCC.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 07:20:28 PM »

Way off topic, Deacon.  It concerns the Russian Church-Vatican dialogue, not Romania.


Exactly Father Ambrose!  It's like comparing apples with oranges.  Russia and Romania are two differnt countries.   The question is -  Why did the UGCC and the Vatican sign the agreement in the first place if they had no intention of abiding by it?  What Bishop Hilaron is staitng is that both the UGCC and the Vatican cannot be trusted and referring to the Quadripartite Agreement as a perfect example.

I remember posting about the Quadripartite Agreement when it was signed on the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum.  And for almost two years the response was that no such agreement even existed!
 
Orthodoc

It is hardly comparing apples and oranges to compare two Orthodox Churches' liquidation of two Greek Catholic Churches and their continued treatment of same.  The Vatican wanted the UGCC to adhere to the agreement but the UGCC was smart enough to realize the MP had no intention of giving anything back and put their survival before the Vatican's ecumenical aspirations.  The Romanian Orthodox Church's behavior is proof the UGCC did the right thing.    Your just mad the UGCC wasn't as naive as the RGCC.

Fr. Deacon Lance

[/quote

The Romanian Orthodox Church behavior was a direct result of what had already happened in Russia.  The Quadripartite Agreement would have guaranteed the churches went to the majority parish vote.  Once again WHY did the Vatican & UGC sign and why did they allow the implimentation of the agreement to start?  AND TURN THEIR BACKS SIX WEEKS AFTER THAT IMPLIMENTATION?   Could it be they didn't like the way the congregations were voting? 
Are you saying the ROC was able forsee the future?  Can you give proof of your allegations that the ROC had no intentions of giving back the churches?  Please back up your allegations Deacon!
Weren't you one of those who denied such an agreement existed when I brought it up years ago?
Perhaps you can give us some info on where the churches went during the six weeks the Agreement was honored by both the Vatican and the UGCC and how the congregations voted?

Orthodoc

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 07:29:33 PM »

Way off topic, Deacon.  It concerns the Russian Church-Vatican dialogue, not Romania.


Exactly Father Ambrose!  It's like comparing apples with oranges.  Russia and Romania are two differnt countries.   The question is -  Why did the UGCC and the Vatican sign the agreement in the first place if they had no intention of abiding by it?  What Bishop Hilaron is staitng is that both the UGCC and the Vatican cannot be trusted and referring to the Quadripartite Agreement as a perfect example.

I remember posting about the Quadripartite Agreement when it was signed on the Byzantine (Catholic) Forum.  And for almost two years the response was that no such agreement even existed!
 
Orthodoc

It is hardly comparing apples and oranges to compare two Orthodox Churches' liquidation of two Greek Catholic Churches and their continued treatment of same.  The Vatican wanted the UGCC to adhere to the agreement but the UGCC was smart enough to realize the MP had no intention of giving anything back and put their survival before the Vatican's ecumenical aspirations.  The Romanian Orthodox Church's behavior is proof the UGCC did the right thing.    Your just mad the UGCC wasn't as naive as the RGCC.

Fr. Deacon Lance



The Romanian reaction was due what had happened in Russia.  And your allegation that the ROC had no intention of giving the churches back is laughable.  Are you saying they could foresee the future?  The Agreement was implemented for six weeks when the UGC turned their backs on it! Why?  Could it be they didn't like the way the vote was going?  Can you prove that in those six weeks the ROC was not honoring the agreement?  Please back up your insinuations Deacon!  Where did those churches that were able to vote during those six weeks go?  If the UGCC wasn't so niave why did they sign in the first place?  Could it be they didn't like the way the votes were going?  Over a generation of former UGC's had been brought up with an Orthodox identity!  Why are these people now being told they are 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome].  Could it be because of their strong Orthodox identity?

Orthodoc







Or
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 07:32:25 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,902


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2009, 08:45:22 PM »

So the situation you just claimed was apples and oranges is now the reason for the Russian reaction?  Nevermind that the situations took place simultaneouly.  I am simply stating the UGCC guessed correctly. Could the ROC see the future?  Yes, they certainly could.  They saw a future in which they lost control of Ukraine, their lifeblood.  That is why they fight against an autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church now.  As the Romanian situation shows it wouldn't have mattered how the voting went.  Why did they sign?  I have yet see any proof that anybody signed anything.  They came to the table to work out an agreement and promptly left when they saw they were going to be screwed if they didn't stand up for themselves.  The reason they left is becasue they knew they would win the votes and still not get property returned.  Brought up with an strong Orthodox identity?  That must be why they all left when the UGCC was legalized.  Just like they left in Slovakia.  In Slovakia the government stopped the voting so the Orthodox would be left with some churches.  All one has to do is observe how the MP fights the UOC-KP and UAOC over churches to see how the quadpartite "agreement" would have went down.  The MP would have agreed to keep all the churches.

Fr. Deacon Lance

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 08:51:06 PM by Deacon Lance » Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2009, 09:55:30 PM »

The Vatican wanted the UGCC to adhere to the agreement but the UGCC was smart enough to realize the MP had no intention of giving anything back and put their survival before the Vatican's ecumenical aspirations. 

We do know the reasons that the Greek Catholics withdrew from the Quadrennial Commission established to solve the problems in the Western Ukraine. I was thinking of sparing your sensibilities but it is probably beneficial if the truth be told..

1) The Greek Catholics were promised by the Nationalist Ukrainian Party in Western Ukraine, known as Rukh, the People's Movement of Ukraina that they would bring about the ethnic cleansing of the Orthodox from Western Ukraine and so the Greek Catholics would come into possession of the Orthodox churches and monasteries. The Greek Catholics therefore saw no point in playing along with the Quadrennial Commission. Rukh was assuring them that it would soon all be their hands anyway.

2) The Ukrainian Greek Catholics were shafted by the Vatican representatives on the Quadrennial Commission in 1990! This betrayal of the Greek Catholics is described at length in an article by Fr Serge Kelleher who serves the Ukrainian Greek Catholic community in Ireland at the Dublin Cathedral. I'll see if I can locate it. It is on the Net somewhere.

Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2009, 10:02:10 PM »

Church in the Middle: Greek-Catholics in Central and Eastern Europe

Serge Keleher

http://www.melkite.com/keleher.html

"In January 1990 a delegation from the Council for Promoting Christian Unity (the department of the Holy See responsible for ecumenism) visited the Moscow Patriarchate, and attempted to reach a working agreement on procedures for settling the disputes arising from the reappearance of the Greek-Catholic Church in Ukraine. As a result of that meeting, a ‘Quadripartite Commission’ met in March. The Roman delegates tried to suppress the voice of the representatives of the Greek-Catholic Church in Ukraine, who eventually withdrew from the meeting in protest. The Commission collapsed, and an effort in September to resurrect it did not succeed. I shall discuss the reason for this failure in a moment...."

Another report by Fr Serge Kelleher goes into much greater detail...

The Passion and Resurrection: The Greek Catholic Church in
Soviet Ukraine 1939-1989
, Serge Keleher.

Please see
http://www.cin.org/archives/cineast/200303/0077.html

(I just checked because cineast is no longer operative and this article is not online anymore.  Drat!   It may be elsewhere on the Net.  Failing that one of us could e-mail Fr Serge.  Or, as you know he is active every day on Byzcath.)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 10:04:38 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2009, 10:39:12 PM »



Irish Hermit:

One of your posts on this matter in Catholic Answers on this very subject before it was erased with thousands of others.  I copied and saved it in my files.

================

Re: Greek Catholics attempt to seize an Orthodox church in the Lvov diocese
There are two sides to the question of the Orthodox-Greek Catholic struggle in the Ukraine. One major part of the problem has been the withdrawal of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholics from the Quadrennial Commission which was set up in 1990 to address the issues of tensions between Orthodox and Catholics and specifically to look at the vexed question of the ownership of churches.

Unfortunately the Ukrainian Greek Catholics soon withdrew from the Commission, being persuaded by the ultra-nationalists of RUKH (Popular Movement of Ukraine) that the Western Ukraine would be cleansed of Orthodoxy and all the churches would be in their possession. This stymied the Commission in its work of restoring churches, either to their former owners or, as in the cases where the religious demographics of the town or village has changed from majority Orthodox to majority Catholic (or vice versa), to whichever group will use and maintain the building, with provision for worship for the minority group. This last provision works in favour of the
Catholics in many areas.

Below is a small extract from a longer article by Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev with whom some members of this august forum may be familiar, either through his theological works or through his labours in the ecumenical world in Europe.

The extract is from a paper delivered on 7 October 2002 at the University of St Thomas (St Paul, Minessota, USA), and repeated on 9 October 2002 at the Catholic University of America (Washington D.C).

The complete article is located at
http://www.orthodoxeurope.org/ecurel/000001.php

Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Prospects for Catholic-Orthodox Relations

'However, the end of 1980s was marked by a rapid deterioration in the relations between the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches. The main reason for this was the emergence of the Greek Catholic Church in Western Ukraine. Its presence, which was created after the 1596 Union of Brest, was strong in Western Ukraine until 1946, when it was banned by Stalin. After 1946, many members of this Church were imprisoned and killed and some went into exile. The Greek Catholic Church was declared to be illegal and many church
buildings that belonged to it were given to the Orthodox. A similar process took place in 1948 in Communist Romania, where the Uniate Church was also declared to be illegal and its buildings were either closed or transferred to the Orthodox.

'Now, at the end of 1980s, under the influence of the nationalist movement in Western Ukraine, the Greek Catholics began to re-establish their presence in the region. What may have become a restoration of justice, however, turned out to be a crying injustice, since the revival of the Greek Catholic Church took place at the expense of the Orthodox Church. On 29 October 1989, the Greek Catholics seized the Transfiguration Cathedral of Lvov, after
expelling the Orthodox from it. Shortly thereafter, many similar acts occurred in other parts of the country.

'January 1990 saw the creation of the so-called Quadrennial Commission, which comprised representatives of the Moscow Patriarchate, the Roman Catholic Church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Eastern Rite Catholics from Western Ukraine. The Commission began to discuss concrete cases of human rights violations during the campaign launched by the Uniates. In March 1990, the Commission developed basic principles for the distribution of the property between the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox. It was agreed that, where there are two churches, one should be given to the Greek Catholics and another one remain Orthodox; where there is only one church, it should belong to the majority group, which must in this case help the minority find or build a suitable place of worship. However, on 13 March 1990, the Greek Catholics unilaterally left the Commission.
From then on the seizure of the Orthodox churches (some of them had belonged to the Orthodox even before the Union of 1596) assumed an avalanche-like character. In many places violent methods were employed by the Greek Catholics as they seized Orthodox churches and expelled parishioners from their places of worship. Tensions between the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics led to clashes and mass disorders.

By the end of 1990, most churches in Lvov, Ternopol and Ivano-Frankovsk had been captured and by the end of 1991, 597 churches had been taken from the Orthodox...............'


================

Orthodoc

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2009, 10:43:59 PM »


From my files:

Part I

============

STATEMENT:  by the Holy Synod of the Moscow Patriarchate in Connection with the
Leaving by the Catholics of the Eastern Rite of the Quadripartite Commission
for Normalizing Relations Between the Orthodox and the Catholics of the Eastern
Rite in the Western Regions of the Ukraine and Concerning the Decision Adopted
by the Lvov City Soviet of the People's Deputies on April 6, 1990


In August 1989, the Russian Orthodox Church, acting through fraternal contacts
with the Primate of the Roman Catholic Church, Pope John Paul II, and his
representatives, and prompted by pastoral concern, displayed initiative on the
settlement of te position of the Catholics of the Eastern Rite in the Western
Ukraine.
In accordance with the plans for settling the said problems, approved by both
sides, a quadripartie Commission, consisting of representatives of the Holy
See, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the Catholics
of the Eastern Rite, was working in Lvov on March 8-13, 1990.
As a result of the work, carried out by the Commission, involving trips,
on-the-spot inspection of churches by its members and meetings with believers,
the Commission unanimously adopted a number of practical decisions:  churches
in the towns of Nestrov, Zoochev, Nikolaev, Yavorov, Stryj, and Borislav were
distributed between the Orthodox and the Uniates.
On the last  day of the Commissions work, Archbishop Vladimir Sternyuk, one of
the representatives of the Catholics of the Eastern Rite, suddenly left the
commission, BUT THE CATHOLIC SIDE THE DECLARED THAT WORK COULD BE CONTINUED,
SINCE THEIR OTHER REPRESENTATIVE WAS PRESENT, AND THE PRINCIPLE OF
REPRESENTATION BY THE FOUR SIDES WAS THUS OBSERVED.
On March 13th, the Commission approved the statement on the results of the
first meeting, stressing that this was only the beginning of the process of
settlement, after which representatives of the Churches would go over to
considering other outstanding questions.  To prevent acts of extremism,
Commission members, acting on behalf of their respective churches, PLEDGED TO
EXCLUDE ANY POSSIBILITY OF FORCIBLE SEIZURES OF CHURCHES.
The Holy Synod of the Moscow Patriarchate approved the results of the
Commissions work and declared that our Church is ready to continue her efforts
to settle this problem.
However, on Mrach 22nd, the Lvov newspaper, Leninska molodj, published a
"Statement of the Episcopate of the Greek Catholic Church in the Ukraine
Concerning the Talks of the Quadripartite Commission on Relations Between the
Orthodox and the Catholics", announcing the invalidity of the documents issued
by the Commission in the process of these talks,  "including all documents on
the transfer of churches.  MOREOVER, THE SAME STATEMENT SAYS THAT EVERYTHING
PRESENTED BY VLADYKAS FROM THE UKRAINE HAS BEEN AGREED  UPON WITH POPE JOHN
PAUL II.
Following this statement, the seizures of Orthodox churches, involving acts of
violence and lawlessness, became frequent.  Uniate leaders call for banishing
the Orthodox Church from the territory of the Western Ukraine.  It is
noteworthy that in its Statement the episcopate of the Ukrainian Catholics
declares that 'THE UKRAINIAN GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE ONLY CHURCH IN THE
UKRAINE."

============

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2009, 10:45:41 PM »



Part II:

==============

In many towns and villages the Orthodox are compelled to pray right in the
street.  The life of the Orthodox people in Galicia is clouded by tears and
suffering.
Instead of observing the law and ensuring their citizens' security, the local
authorities take a one sided anti-Orthodox stand  The most striking
illustration of this is the recent decision of the Lvov City Soviet to take St
Yur Cathedral and the bishops residence away from the Orthodox believers and
turn them over to the Catholics of the Eastern Rite.  On the eve of the feast
of  Holy Pascha the Orthodox may find themselves in the street!
Lawlessness has reached the limit in the Western Ukraine, and the inimical
tension in relations to believers of the two communities is fraught with
unpredictable complications.  While it is not to late, the Holy Synod once
again calls for an end to the brother-hating relations and for finding, in the
spirit of Christ's love, a just and legitimate way of settling the problem.
We believe that the Ukrainian consanguineous brothers and sisters and their
religious pastors are capable of reaching agreements restoring conditions for a
peaceful and quiet life in ther native land.
The Holy Synod hopes that the Holy See will pay attention to the complicated
situation with regard to the settlement of the problems of the Catholics of the
Eastern Rite in the Western Ukraine and will not allow these events to affect
the developement of the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue.  IN THIS CONNECTION WE CALL
IN QUESTION THE TRUSTWORTHINESS OF THE UNIATE EPISCOPATE'S  ALLEGATION THAT
THEIR PRONOUNCEMENTS HAVE BEEN AGREED UPON  WITH POPE JOHN PAUL II, BECAUSE
THIS ALLEGATION IS  AT VARIANCE WITH THE VATICAN'S OFFICIAL STATEMENT, WHICH
SAYS:  "THE HOLY SEE IS HIGHLY SATISFIED WITH THE AGREEMENT REACHED BY ITS
ENVOYS IN COOPERATION WITH ORTHODOX REPRESENTATIVES."
The Church calls upon all  her faithful children to pray for the persecuted and
suffering brothers and sisters in Galicia, to raise their voice in their
defense and to give them all possible assistance.
We ask for the personal interference of President of the Soviet Union M.
Gorbachev  and the highest authorities of the Ukrainian SSR in order to
establish law and order, pu an end to violence, annul the Lvov City Soviets's
decision concerning St Yur Cathedral and the bishop's residence in Livov
return the forcibly seized churches, ensure a normal church life and help
overcome the difficult problems inherited from the past.
Resolutely protesting against the stand taken by the local authorities in the
Western Ukraine, particulary in Lvov, the Holy Synod declares that the path
they have chosen further aggravates the inter-religious situation and enmity
amidst the Ukrainian people rather than promotes the settlement of conflicts.
We pray to God, Who vanquished all evil forces on earth by His Ressurection,
also to resurrect our souls for love, fraternity, and peace!

==================

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2009, 10:53:06 PM »

So the situation you just claimed was apples and oranges is now the reason for the Russian reaction?  Nevermind that the situations took place simultaneouly.  I am simply stating the UGCC guessed correctly. Could the ROC see the future?  Yes, they certainly could.  They saw a future in which they lost control of Ukraine, their lifeblood.  That is why they fight against an autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church now.  As the Romanian situation shows it wouldn't have mattered how the voting went.  Why did they sign?  I have yet see any proof that anybody signed anything.  They came to the table to work out an agreement and promptly left when they saw they were going to be screwed if they didn't stand up for themselves.  The reason they left is becasue they knew they would win the votes and still not get property returned.  (1)Brought up with an strong Orthodox identity?  That must be why they all left when the UGCC was legalized.  Just like they left in Slovakia.  In Slovakia the government stopped the voting so the Orthodox would be left with some churches. (2)  All one has to do is observe how the MP fights the UOC-KP and UAOC over churches to see how the quadpartite "agreement" would have went down.   The MP would have agreed to keep all the churches.

Fr. Deacon Lance


Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2009, 11:33:04 PM »


My reply to Post #17:

Reply:

(1)  You still haven't explained why these people are now being told they are "Orthodox In Communion With Rome' if they didn't have such a strong Orthodox identity.  Perhaps you can explain why there was almost a decline of almost a million members inthe Livov region from 2000-2004 and 100,000 in the Kiev district during the same time. Could it be that they all joined either the UOC_KP or UAOC or did they all become Baptists?

Reference:

http://www.cnewa.org/source-images/Roberson-eastcath-statistics/eastcatholic-stat05.pdf

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

2000 =   5,159,633  (peak)

2004 =  4,321,508   [838,155 loss in one year]

2005 =  4,268,577  [[52,931 loss in one year]

Total loss in 5 years =  891,056




From another Catholic sources -

This is interesting!

Diocese of Livov -

2000-----------1,607,000
2004-----------   650,000

LOSS---------   957,000  (almost a million in 4 years!)

Diocese of Kiev -

2000-----------300,000
2004-----------200,000

LOSS---------100,000

Problems with the ROC and the two noncanonical Ukrainian Orthodox churches concern the canons of the church.  They are both self proclaimed churches.  Do you support the self proclaimed Pope Micheal of the RCC? 

Once again one  has to wonder where almost a million people went.  Peerhaps they joined either the UOC_KP or the UAOC.  Or maybe they all became Baptists.  Maybe you can explain it Deacon Lance.

http://popemichael.homestead.com/

===========================

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 11:35:38 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2009, 02:12:37 PM »

The Greek Catholic Church should be properly brought into communion with Orthoodxy in Ukraine and it's members returned to the fold of the Orthodox Church (UOC-MP).  This gesture alone would make much ecumenical progress for Roman-Moscow relations.

Also, all the RCC religious diocese's on the canonical territory of the Moscow Patriarchate should be terminated and their members forced to respect the  Orthodox.  Since the Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ, it will not hurt these people to get that truth as a part of their lives.
It is a sham that Rome say's that she does not wish to make converts of the Orthoodx and yet that is all she does in Russia.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 02:34:00 PM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2009, 03:49:43 PM »

The Greek Catholic Church should be properly brought into communion with Orthoodxy in Ukraine and it's members returned to the fold of the Orthodox Church (UOC-MP).  This gesture alone would make much ecumenical progress for Roman-Moscow relations.

It happened once before, and they all went back to being Greek Catholic as soon as they had the opportunity. When something becomes so much a part of your identity, it is not so simple as this.


I'm not sure why they have a problem and if they do why not convert to Orthodoxy?

If I may be permitted to play devil's advocate for a moment....

It is sometimes easier said than done.  Eastern Catholics often have a strong sense of identity, ironically because of being poorly treated by both Rome and the Orthodox.  Imagine having grown up in a setting like this where you feel attacked from all sides.  Obviously I believe that there are real doctrinal inconsistencies involved in Eastern Catholicism, but sometimes it becomes a real "motherhood issue", a question of identity arising from a perception of being persecuted.  From this perspective, I think the attachment to Eastern Catholicism is easy to understand.  Sometimes I don't think we Orthodox are doing them or ourselves any favours when we deal with them in a rough way.

I am sorry if I am just saying something that is obvious to you, but I thought it might be something to consider at this point.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 03:50:06 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2009, 05:49:32 PM »

They all didn't "go back" to Catholicism.  Many wished to remain Orthodox (Which was always there desire to do).  For centuries the Ukrainian people prayed secretly for the Tsar and his Cossacks to save them from the cruel emperors Austria who had enslaved them to the Pope of Rome through the Eastern Catholic Church. As soon as the empire of Austria fell, many Ukrainian, and Carpatho Russian people sought to embrace the Orthodox faith again but they were prevented from doing so by the Polish government who controlled them between the wars. The Poles expected all types of influence and persecution on those Orthodox Christians who would not become Eastern Catholics.  When the Christ loving Red Army came to save them in 1944-45, the people responded by embracing Orthodoxy.

Now the Greek rite has returned to plague them but they should not fear.  I am convince that my avatar may yet again bring the Russian army to liberate the Ukraine from Western influences.

God save Russia and Ukraine and down with Polish/Latin treachery!

Post modified pursuant to forum policy:

"Please do not use the following terms in your discussions as they are considered to be prejorative by other members of this forum:

Uniate: please use Eastern Catholic."

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg187933.html#msg187933

Salpy
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 02:50:29 AM by Salpy » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2009, 06:42:45 PM »

They all didn't "go back" to Catholicism.  Many wished to remain Orthodox (Which was always there desire to do).  For centuries the Ukrainian people prayed secretly for the Tsar and his Cossacks to save them from the cruel emperors Austria who had enslaved them to the Pope of Rome through the Unia. As soon as the empire of Austria fell, many Ukrainian, and Carpatho Russian people sought to embrace the Orthodox faith again but they were prevented from doing so by the Polish government who controlled them between the wars. The Poles expected all types of influence and persecution on those Orthodox Christians who would not become Uniates.  When the Christ loving Red Army came to save them in 1944-45, the people responded by embracing Orthodoxy.Now the Greek rite has returned to plague them but they should not fear.  I am convince that my avatar may yet again bring the Russian army to liberate the Ukraine from Western influences.

God save Russia and Ukraine and down with Polish/Latin treachery!

What Christ loving Red Army are you talking about?  Your grasp on history is warped.  It was Stalin (A Georgian) who abolished the UGCC.  Force never solves a problem.  All it does in increase the amount of hatred and distrust that already exists.  That is why the Quadrapartite Agreement was the best solution.  Let the government, clergy, and outside forces stay out of it so the Ukrainian people in each individual parish can decide what church they wanted to belong to - Orthodox Catholic or Greek Catholic.

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 06:47:15 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,902


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2009, 06:51:10 PM »

Orthodoc,

Nobody is telling them are "Orthodox in Communion with Rome".  As you know the only people calling themselves that are those on web fora.

The 5 million to 4 million drop you cite is for the worldwide UGCC and the greatest number drop seems to be coming from the US and Canadian Provinces.  The drop for the Archeparchy of Lviv seems due to the fact that two new Eparchies were seperated from it.  The drop in the Archeparchy of Kyiv seems due to the fact that two new Exarchates were seperated from it.  In addition the numbers changes could be corrections of inaccurate estimates, something all Eastern Churches including the Orthodox seem to suffer from.  For example my own Archeparchy of Pittsburgh according to those fugures went from 143,000 to 60,000 from 1990 to 2005.  I don't think my Eparchy has had 143,000 since the 1950s if it ever had that many.

Talk about apples and oranges, the UOC-KP and UAOC, being Churches with actual members who wanted to withdraw from the MP as opposed to some clown who sets up a chapel in his garage.  I'll concede the KP is uncanonical from an Orthodox perspective, (I think the UAOC is a unique case) but that does not derogate from their basic human right to leave the MP and take their property with them.

Fr. Deacon Lance    

Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2009, 12:36:46 AM »

They all didn't "go back" to Catholicism.  Many wished to remain Orthodox (Which was always there desire to do).  For centuries the Ukrainian people prayed secretly for the Tsar and his Cossacks to save them from the cruel emperors Austria who had enslaved them to the Pope of Rome through the Unia. As soon as the empire of Austria fell, many Ukrainian, and Carpatho Russian people sought to embrace the Orthodox faith again but they were prevented from doing so by the Polish government who controlled them between the wars. The Poles expected all types of influence and persecution on those Orthodox Christians who would not become Uniates.  When the Christ loving Red Army came to save them in 1944-45, the people responded by embracing Orthodoxy.Now the Greek rite has returned to plague them but they should not fear.  I am convince that my avatar may yet again bring the Russian army to liberate the Ukraine from Western influences.

God save Russia and Ukraine and down with Polish/Latin treachery!



What Christ loving Red Army are you talking about?  Your grasp on history is warped.  It was Stalin (A Georgian) who abolished the UGCC.  Force never solves a problem.  All it does in increase the amount of hatred and distrust that already exists.  That is why the Quadrapartite Agreement was the best solution.  Let the government, clergy, and outside forces stay out of it so the Ukrainian people in each individual parish can decide what church they wanted to belong to - Orthodox Catholic or Greek Catholic.

Orthodoc


Why do we, when talking about Ukrainians, seem to refer to them as childlike people who should just be "left alone" to settle their own issues?  The RCC-Ukrainian rite seems to be the ones not wanting good Orthodox Ukrainians from practicing the religion of their choice.  They are seizing churches which never belonged to them and forcing people to worship in the streets rather then in the very places their ancestors built (as Orthodox parishes).  I'm all for letting Ukrainians decide what Church to belong to (though they should preferably join the UOC-MP which is the only canonical Orthodox Church in that country).  However one should ask "Is the UGCC content to let this happen"?


« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 12:38:42 AM by Robb » Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2009, 04:03:25 PM »

Now the Greek rite has returned to plague them but they should not fear.  I am convince that my avatar may yet again bring the Russian army to liberate the Ukraine from Western influences.

I sincerely hope not.   Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 04:58:33 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2009, 09:48:45 AM »

Orthodoc,

Nobody is telling them are "Orthodox in Communion with Rome".  As you know the only people calling themselves that are those on web fora.The 5 million to 4 million drop you cite is for the worldwide UGCC and the greatest number drop seems to be coming from the US and Canadian Provinces.  The drop for the Archeparchy of Lviv seems due to the fact that two new Eparchies were seperated from it.  The drop in the Archeparchy of Kyiv seems due to the fact that two new Exarchates were seperated from it.  In addition the numbers changes could be corrections of inaccurate estimates, something all Eastern Churches including the Orthodox seem to suffer from.  For example my own Archeparchy of Pittsburgh according to those fugures went from 143,000 to 60,000 from 1990 to 2005.  I don't think my Eparchy has had 143,000 since the 1950s if it ever had that many.

Talk about apples and oranges, the UOC-KP and UAOC, being Churches with actual members who wanted to withdraw from the MP as opposed to some clown who sets up a chapel in his garage.  I'll concede the KP is uncanonical from an Orthodox perspective, (I think the UAOC is a unique case) but that does not derogate from their basic human right to leave the MP and take their property with them.

Fr. Deacon Lance    



Fr Deacon Lance:  So you are claiming that the oxymoron 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' is a recent terminology invented by some internet guru's.  I suggust you read more on the establishment of the Unia.  The term originated immediately after the Union was signed to mislead the peasants and address their loyality to Orthodoxy.  If fact, it even went a little further.  The peasants who questioned it were told that the pope had joined the Orthodox Church!  Dr Alex Roman (a Ukrainian Catholic) has discussed it many times on the internet.  It was even discussed at length in the forum you post in -remember?  It came about at the creation of the Unia and now you want us to believe it is just a coincidence it rears its ugly head at the restablishment of the Unia?

Orthodox

If the so called decreased total of UGC's is due to the separation of these diocese into Eparchies,  why does the loss still show up in the grand total.
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,902


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2009, 06:15:10 PM »


Fr Deacon Lance:  So you are claiming that the oxymoron 'Orthodox In Communion With Rome' is a recent terminology invented by some internet guru's.  I suggust you read more on the establishment of the Unia.  The term originated immediately after the Union was signed to mislead the peasants and address their loyality to Orthodoxy.  If fact, it even went a little further.  The peasants who questioned it were told that the pope had joined the Orthodox Church!  Dr Alex Roman (a Ukrainian Catholic) has discussed it many times on the internet.  It was even discussed at length in the forum you post in -remember?  It came about at the creation of the Unia and now you want us to believe it is just a coincidence it rears its ugly head at the restablishment of the Unia?

Orthodox

The inscription on my parish church's conerstone says Greek Catholic Church in English and Slavonic.  Nothing from Rome, nothing from my hierarchs has ever called us Orthodox in Communion with Rome.  While I agree with the sentiment nobody outside cyberpace uses that title.  Anecdotes are not proof and I've seen precious little from either side.  The faithful of our Churches went with the Church of the ruler at the time of the unias.  At the time of the pseudo-synods that liquidated the Greek Catholic Chuches of Ukraine, Transcarpathia, Slovakia, and Romania the people had been Greek Catholic for 300 years give or take, were Latinizied, and certainly didn't call themselves Orthodox in Communion with Rome.  Nor did the fact that for over 40 years they were forced to go to Liturgy in the woods or an Orthodox parish because their was no underground Greek Catholic priest near make them fond of the Orthodox.  You are fooling yourself if you think those persecuted by the Communists with the collusion of the MP ever considered themselves Orthodox or were going to allow the churches stolen from their parents remain in the MP's hands after their Church was legalized.


If the so called decreased total of UGC's is due to the separation of these diocese into Eparchies,  why does the loss still show up in the grand total.


From previous post:
 
In addition the numbers changes could be corrections of inaccurate estimates, something all Eastern Churches including the Orthodox seem to suffer from.  For example my own Archeparchy of Pittsburgh according to those fugures went from 143,000 to 60,000 from 1990 to 2005.  I don't think my Eparchy has had 143,000 since the 1950s if it ever had that many.


But let us look at those numbers you are so worried about:

Archeparchy of Lviv

2000: 1,607,000

2004: 650,000

Three new Eparchies formed:
Eparchy of Buchach: 218,500
Eparchy of Sokal: 332,644
Eparchy of Stryj: 319,043

So Lviv lost 957,000 and the new Eparchies total 869,003 for a difference of 87,997.  The biggest discrepancy seems to be the Eparchies of Ternopil and Zboriv which in 2000 had 598,000 and 375,000 respectively but when merged by 2004 had 455,613, a difference of 517,387 whcih is probably why they were merged.  Now did they lose that many people or were their number simply incorrect from the beginning.  I suspect the latter.

Fr. Deacon Lance



Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2009, 12:22:49 PM »


Deacon Lance Responds:

[Orthodoc,

Nobody is telling them are "Orthodox in Communion with Rome".  As you know the only people calling themselves that are those on web fora.]


Reply:

As an occassional lurker on the Byzantine (Catholic Forum) this subject has recently reappeared.  Here is a respnse from one of your co posters in that group which seems to contradict the above reply you gave me that this is just a recent internet thing.  Care to comment?


Loc: Falls Church, VA    The term has been used by leading Greek Catholic theologians and hierarchs, including Patriarch Gregorios III of Antioch, Patriarch Lyubomir of Kyiv, and Fr. Robert Taft of the Pontifical Oriental Institute. We are Orthodox because we do believe all that the Orthodox Church believes; we are in communion with the Church of Rome, because the Bishop of Rome shares the Eucharist with our bishops.


=====================

Orthodoc
   
   
   
   
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 12:23:40 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2009, 12:52:46 PM »

Also, all the RCC religious diocese's on the canonical territory of the Moscow Patriarchate should be terminated and their members forced to respect the  Orthodox.  Since the Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ, it will not hurt these people to get that truth as a part of their lives.
It is a sham that Rome say's that she does not wish to make converts of the Orthoodx and yet that is all she does in Russia.

There are plenty of people who have historically been Roman Catholic within the former USSR.  When the territory won by Poland during the Polish-Soviet war was annexed by the USSR after WWII, many Roman Catholics won an all expenses paid trip to Central Asia and other parts of the USSR away from their historical homelands.  If you travel around the former USSR, you'll find the odd Lithuanian here and there that ended up in Russia or Central Asia for whatever reason and didn't return to independent Lithuania.  Why should these people have their freedom of religion denied?   Should countries like Lithuania and Poland reciprocate?  Warsaw has a very nice Orthodox Cathedral right in the centre of the city, should that be bulldozed?     
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,574



« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2009, 01:11:31 PM »

Also, all the RCC religious diocese's on the canonical territory of the Moscow Patriarchate should be terminated and their members forced to respect the  Orthodox.  Since the Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ, it will not hurt these people to get that truth as a part of their lives.
It is a sham that Rome say's that she does not wish to make converts of the Orthoodx and yet that is all she does in Russia.

There are plenty of people who have historically been Roman Catholic within the former USSR.  When the territory won by Poland during the Polish-Soviet war was annexed by the USSR after WWII, many Roman Catholics won an all expenses paid trip to Central Asia and other parts of the USSR away from their historical homelands.  If you travel around the former USSR, you'll find the odd Lithuanian here and there that ended up in Russia or Central Asia for whatever reason and didn't return to independent Lithuania.  Why should these people have their freedom of religion denied?   Should countries like Lithuania and Poland reciprocate?  Warsaw has a very nice Orthodox Cathedral right in the centre of the city, should that be bulldozed?     

It already has:

is now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral,_Warsaw
the most hated building in Communist Warsaw.

During Communism, many Poles commented "serves us right."

And you are right, "There are plenty of people who have historically been Roman Catholic within the former USSR." 
Quote
The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 01:14:02 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2009, 01:19:36 PM »

Actions of the Second Republic really shouldn't serve as the basis for policy in 2009.  But if irrelevant one-liners are all you can come up with...
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2009, 01:30:37 PM »

I have an old National Geographic magazine from 1926 which has some nice photos from (then) Poland.  One of them is of the (former) Orthodox cathedral in Warsaw.  The church structure still exists but the domes had been blown off and it was serving as some type of hotel or something along those lines.  I guess the soviets found a better use for it then that.

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,574



« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2009, 02:20:24 PM »

Actions of the Second Republic really shouldn't serve as the basis for policy in 2009.  But if irrelevant one-liners are all you can come up with...

Quite relevant one-liners, as this thread discussed:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15844.0.html
the policy of the Second Republic towards the Orthdoox has provided the base for the policy and circumstances of the Third Republic.  I remember the fear of the Polish Orthodox about losing monasteric properties and seminaries (IIRC they lost at least one).  On that note:
Quote
'ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY IS INDIGENOUS TO POLAND'
A POLISH ORTHODOX MONASTERY ESTABLISHED: 'IT IS THE WILL OF GOD'

In establishing their monastery, the monks encountered all kinds of obstacles. Just a week after they purchased the land, the Roman Catholic Curia sent a letter to the court in Przemysl, claiming that it had been purchased illegally, since Uniats in Poland could not buy land in Poland without the permission of the Roman Catholic Church. Fortunately, the monks had bought the land not as clerics but as private individuals, for agricultural use. So the Roman Catholic claims were rejected.

Some people began to come to the monastery. Women and children would come regularly for evening devotions to the Mother of God. There was even talk about possibly renovating the derelict Eastern-rite church, which had been closed in 1946. In May 1988, however, the Roman Catholic priest forbade the children from going to the monastery. Rumours began circulating against the monks.

On 18 August, 1988, the eve of the Feast of Transfiguration, some boys from the village came to the monastery: 'Oh, fathers, tomorrow at noon there will be a lot of flags and protest signs, and people will come and destroy the monastery walls'. It.was already nearing eleven o'clock. The monks took seriously the threat and, in spite of the late hour, they drove to the police station for help. When they arrived, relates Fr. Nikodim, 'we saw a woman talking on the phone, explaining to someone that all the phones in front of the post office were out of order. As she was leaving she saw us, stopped, and greeted us in Ukranian: 'Glory to Jesus Christ'. We responded, 'Glory forever'. She then added, 'Who is with God, him will God help'. And she left....

The Monastery of SS Cyril and Methodius was officially received into the Polish Orthodox Church on 7 June 1994, the very day the decision was made to glorify Saint Maxim Sandowicz who had struggled, as these monks were doing, to bring Orthodoxy back to his native land.

'Orthodox Christianity is indigenous to Poland', observed Fr. Nikodim. 'SS Cyril and Methodius arrived here before the Western Schism of 1054. There was only one Christendom, and it has survived down to our own day in the form of the Orthodox Church. Clearly, Orthodoxy is not alien to Poland, it was not brought by any tsar, it is our own. It has shaped the Polish state since its inception, for about twelve hundred years. Orthodoxy in this land is native, like the Vistula and San rivers, which flow through the country, watering the soil, and making it fertile. You can't ignore this river, and you can't dam it up because sooner or later the dam will break, such is the nature of the river'....

Of course, there are those that are against it. When monks began work on a road, some people cursed them, seeing in the monks a threat to the existing Roman Catholic order (all six monks are former Roman Catholics, and the monastery it already attracting many Roman Catholic from Przemysl, Krakow, Ukraine, and twenty-eight children have been baptized). But the monks are imposing their faith on no-one. They are simply providing an opportunity for those who wish to return to the Faith of their ancestors. At one time the Przemysl diocese numbered some three million Orthodox faithful. Then came the tragic 'Brest Unia' of 1596, cleverly engineered to align the people with the interests of the Roman Catholic Austro-Hungarian Empire. Those who refused to accept the Unia were made to suffer economically and were otherwise persecuted. The last Orthodox monastery to hold out against the Union was the Maniawski Skete, which was destroyed in July 1786 by Austrian artillery. Precisely two hundred years later, in July 1986, Orthodox monasticism in the Przemysl diocese was reborn.
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/oepoland.htm
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,574



« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2009, 02:24:10 PM »

Orthodoc,

Nobody is telling them are "Orthodox in Communion with Rome".  As you know the only people calling themselves that are those on web fora.

The 5 million to 4 million drop you cite is for the worldwide UGCC and the greatest number drop seems to be coming from the US and Canadian Provinces.  The drop for the Archeparchy of Lviv seems due to the fact that two new Eparchies were seperated from it.  The drop in the Archeparchy of Kyiv seems due to the fact that two new Exarchates were seperated from it.  In addition the numbers changes could be corrections of inaccurate estimates, something all Eastern Churches including the Orthodox seem to suffer from.  For example my own Archeparchy of Pittsburgh according to those fugures went from 143,000 to 60,000 from 1990 to 2005.  I don't think my Eparchy has had 143,000 since the 1950s if it ever had that many.

Talk about apples and oranges, the UOC-KP and UAOC, being Churches with actual members who wanted to withdraw from the MP as opposed to some clown who sets up a chapel in his garage.  I'll concede the KP is uncanonical from an Orthodox perspective, (I think the UAOC is a unique case) but that does not derogate from their basic human right to leave the MP and take their property with them.

Fr. Deacon Lance    



they can take their property with them (witness the situation in New Jersey with Transfiguration).  They just can't take property they CLAIM as theirs.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,191


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2009, 03:33:31 PM »

"We are still expecting the Catholic Church to give some articulate and adequate response the
concerns we have voiced on many occasions," Archbishop Hilarion told
a press conference at the Interfax head office on Tuesday.

If he is refering to the MP's repeated request to liquidate the Greek Catholic Church in Ukraine or the Latin Catholic Dioceses in Russia he can forget it, it is not going to happen. 

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2009, 03:41:44 PM »

the policy of the Second Republic towards the Orthdoox has provided the base for the policy and circumstances of the Third Republic.  I remember the fear of the Polish Orthodox about losing monasteric properties and seminaries (IIRC they lost at least one). 

Which is still changing the topic.  If you support suppressing religious freedoms for Roman Catholics in Russia, then Orthodox ought to receive the same treatment in Lithuania and Poland.  I'd also argue that the situations still aren't entirely analogous since Orthodox Christians in Poland at least have recourse to European human rights institutions. 
Logged
Robb
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: RC
Jurisdiction: Italian Catholic
Posts: 1,537



« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2009, 06:28:34 PM »

Is the Orthodox Church still being persecuted in Poland?  I guess that few things really change in 500 years time.

Logged

Men may dislike truth, men may find truth offensive and inconvenient, men may persecute the truth, subvert it, try by law to suppress it. But to maintain that men have the final power over truth is blasphemy, and the last delusion. Truth lives forever, men do not.
-- Gustave Flaubert
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2009, 07:31:38 PM »

the policy of the Second Republic towards the Orthdoox has provided the base for the policy and circumstances of the Third Republic.  I remember the fear of the Polish Orthodox about losing monasteric properties and seminaries (IIRC they lost at least one). 

Which is still changing the topic.  If you support suppressing religious freedoms for Roman Catholics in Russia, then Orthodox ought to receive the same treatment in Lithuania and Poland.  I'd also argue that the situations still aren't entirely analogous since Orthodox Christians in Poland at least have recourse to European human rights institutions. 

i notice you fail to provide your religious preference or jurisdiction in your profile.  Is there any reason you chose not to disclose it?  If not, how about revealing it?

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2009, 02:13:05 AM »

the policy of the Second Republic towards the Orthdoox has provided the base for the policy and circumstances of the Third Republic.  I remember the fear of the Polish Orthodox about losing monasteric properties and seminaries (IIRC they lost at least one). 

Which is still changing the topic.  If you support suppressing religious freedoms for Roman Catholics in Russia, then Orthodox ought to receive the same treatment in Lithuania and Poland.  I'd also argue that the situations still aren't entirely analogous since Orthodox Christians in Poland at least have recourse to European human rights institutions. 

i notice you fail to provide your religious preference or jurisdiction in your profile.  Is there any reason you chose not to disclose it?  If not, how about revealing it?

Orthodoc

I think the information is irrelevant to the discussion. 
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2009, 09:46:53 AM »

the policy of the Second Republic towards the Orthdoox has provided the base for the policy and circumstances of the Third Republic.  I remember the fear of the Polish Orthodox about losing monasteric properties and seminaries (IIRC they lost at least one). 

Which is still changing the topic.  If you support suppressing religious freedoms for Roman Catholics in Russia, then Orthodox ought to receive the same treatment in Lithuania and Poland.  I'd also argue that the situations still aren't entirely analogous since Orthodox Christians in Poland at least have recourse to European human rights institutions. 

i notice you fail to provide your religious preference or jurisdiction in your profile.  Is there any reason you chose not to disclose it?  If not, how about revealing it?

Orthodoc

I think the information is irrelevant to the discussion. 


I think your response confirms my suspicions.  One has to wonder why someone would register in a RELIGIOUS discussion group and fail to provide information as to their religious background.  What is it you don't want us to know?

Orthodoc
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 09:47:58 AM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2009, 10:38:48 AM »

the policy of the Second Republic towards the Orthdoox has provided the base for the policy and circumstances of the Third Republic.  I remember the fear of the Polish Orthodox about losing monasteric properties and seminaries (IIRC they lost at least one). 

Which is still changing the topic.  If you support suppressing religious freedoms for Roman Catholics in Russia, then Orthodox ought to receive the same treatment in Lithuania and Poland.  I'd also argue that the situations still aren't entirely analogous since Orthodox Christians in Poland at least have recourse to European human rights institutions. 

i notice you fail to provide your religious preference or jurisdiction in your profile.  Is there any reason you chose not to disclose it?  If not, how about revealing it?

Orthodoc

I think the information is irrelevant to the discussion. 


I think your response confirms my suspicions.  One has to wonder why someone would register in a RELIGIOUS discussion group and fail to provide information as to their religious background.  What is it you don't want us to know?

Orthodoc

LOL.  I've posted here for years and have never hid my religious views nor my jurisdictional loyalties.  Although, this is quite amusing considering you absolutely cannot address the substance of what I have said.  Of course, the substance of what anyone says is irrelevant to their religious affiliation.  If a Catholic says 2+2=4, they're right; if an Orthodox says 2=2=5 he is incorrect.  
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 10:39:18 AM by Νεκτάριος » Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,559


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2009, 11:08:56 AM »

If a Catholic says 2+2=4, they're right; if an Orthodox says 2=2=5 he is incorrect.  
2 + 2 does equal 5.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 11:12:20 AM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,574



« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2009, 05:17:36 PM »

the policy of the Second Republic towards the Orthdoox has provided the base for the policy and circumstances of the Third Republic.  I remember the fear of the Polish Orthodox about losing monasteric properties and seminaries (IIRC they lost at least one). 

Which is still changing the topic. 

If that is a problem, why did you change it?

Warsaw has a very nice Orthodox Cathedral right in the centre of the city, should that be bulldozed?


Quote
If you support suppressing religious freedoms for Roman Catholics in Russia, then Orthodox ought to receive the same treatment in Lithuania and Poland. 

Sorry, never did buy that quid pro quo basis for morality. Doesn't work, nor deal with reality.

Orthodoxy and the Vatican are not on a par: one is right, and one is wrong.

Were it not for things such as, say, Luke 9:55-6, go ahead, burn them all.

Quote
I'd also argue that the situations still aren't entirely analogous since Orthodox Christians in Poland at least have recourse to European human rights institutions. 

And that will do what exactly.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2009, 05:31:51 PM »

Sorry, never did buy that quid pro quo basis for morality. Doesn't work, nor deal with reality.

Orthodoxy and the Vatican are not on a par: one is right, and one is wrong.

Says you. 
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.227 seconds with 72 queries.