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Author Topic: Do babies go to heaven?  (Read 3393 times) Average Rating: 0
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stashko
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« on: June 07, 2009, 10:00:12 PM »

Lord Have Mercy! on the perpetrator of this awful crime...Amen
God Help Us All....
The Holy Innocent victim is in heaven [paradise]doesn't need our prayers....
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2009, 10:03:04 PM »


The Holy Innocent victim is in heaven [paradise]doesn't need our prayers....

Why are you so sure?
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2009, 10:05:45 PM »


The Holy Innocent victim is in heaven [paradise]doesn't need our prayers....

Why are you so sure?

The Holy Orthodox  Church says so..........
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2009, 10:38:59 PM »


The Holy Innocent victim is in heaven [paradise]doesn't need our prayers....

Why are you so sure?

The Holy Orthodox  Church says so..........

Where?
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2009, 10:56:22 PM »


The Holy Innocent victim is in heaven [paradise]doesn't need our prayers....

Why are you so sure?

The Holy Orthodox  Church says so..........

Where?


According to our Humble resident and Saintly Father Ambrose that teaches the infallible teaching of the Holy Orthodox church,we are all born immaculate sinless..sin has to be a act..where and how can a 8 month old holy Innocent sin in....
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 11:26:05 PM by stashko » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2009, 11:51:14 PM »


The Holy Innocent victim is in heaven [paradise]doesn't need our prayers....

Why are you so sure?

The Holy Orthodox  Church says so..........

Where?


According to our Humble resident and Saintly Father Ambrose that teaches the infallible teaching of the Holy Orthodox church,we are all born immaculate sinless..sin has to be a act..where and how can a 8 month old holy Innocent sin in....

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to ask. Where does the EOC teach that someone without personal sin necessarily goes to Heaven or inherits Paradise when they die?
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2009, 12:14:59 AM »

The Holy Scriptures says to be absent from the body  is to be present with the Lord..where ever the Lord is heaven is...Especially this applies for the Holy Innocent....
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2009, 12:17:57 AM »

I know that in my own Church I've been told that babies go to heaven.  We don't believe in purgatory or limbo, and our merciful God would not send a baby to hell.  I would think that in the EO Church the belief would be the same.
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2009, 12:20:48 AM »

Deusveritasest,

Do you have information indicating that any Orthodox Church teaches that God will send babies to hell?
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2009, 12:29:41 AM »

I know that in my own Church I've been told that babies go to heaven.  We don't believe in purgatory or limbo, and our merciful God would not send a baby to hell.  I would think that in the EO Church the belief would be the same.
Does your Church teach you to pray for deceased babies?

Oh, Limbo is not an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church . Just so you know Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2009, 12:53:19 AM »

A few thoughts which I don't claim at up to a coherent whole:

1) Generally, it is the teaching of that Church that only God judges. We do not. We do not speculate about the salvation or damnation of others inside or outside the Church because to do so is to (however unintentionally) usurp a role that belongs solely to the Creator (saints are somewhat of an exception, but the general understanding is still that we do not judge--rather when God reveals/signals to the Church through miracles and the movement of the Holy Spirit in popular devotion, then the Church simply recognizes God's declared judgment). Human nature being what it is, we are rarely able to hold to this strict position, but I"d still suggest that this topic is as inherently fruitless as the 'what happens to the 10th century Polynesian who never heard the Gospel' question.

2) The universal practice of the Church is to baptize infants. We do so because Orthodoxy teaches that, sans the Grace of baptism, human Nature is separated from God. This is our understanding of 'Original Sin.' Infants have no personal guilt, but because they possess the same fallen human nature as the rest of us, they are separated from God (as are the rest of us without the saving Grace of baptism)

3) Orthodoxy does not really see hell as a result of a juridicial condemnation by God. Rather, hell is the result of self-condemnation. The soul that has rejected God, is condemned to continue in its own freely chosen separation from the source of all Good for all eternity. Indeed, it is possible to argue from the Fathers, that after the Last Judgment, we will all be in the same state (apropos of stashko's Scriptural quote)--the soul which has been united to Christ through baptism and the subsequent sacraments, which has striven in whatever meager way to open itself to Grace, will receive its reward in being bathed in the fullness of that Grace. The soul which has rejected God, will also be bathed in the fullness of that Grace. But because the soul rejects that Grace, the Uncreated Light will be as a consuming fire. Not because God wishes it so, but because the soul has refused to prepare itself and so cannot bear it.

Given (1), I really shouldn't go any further into speculation, but if (3) is indeed the case then I don't think any of us can conceive of what the state for an infant who is, by nature, separated from God but not, by will, actively rejecting God. I think we have to entrust that to God.

BUT
4) It is the practice of the Church to pray for the dead. I am open to correction, but I believe the Church uses the exact same prayer for a baptized infant as we do for a baptized adult when either has passed on. By extension, we would pray the same prayers for an unbaptized infant that we would for anyone who had passed away outside the Church. We cannot necessarily know what the effect of these prayers are--but whatever their effect for the decease, they are good for our souls to practice in the Faith that God listens to them.
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2009, 01:08:48 AM »

I have heard it said that St David's sin with Bathsheba indicates that infants go to heaven. Recall that David had sinned with Bathsheba and as a result a child was born. This displeased the Lord and the child soon died.

22 And he said: 'While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I said: Who knoweth whether the LORD will not be gracious to me, that the child may live?    23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.'

David appears to be saying that at some future point he will be re-united with the dead child whereas for the time being, the child cannot return.
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2009, 01:50:21 AM »


The Holy Scriptures says to be absent from the body  is to be present with the Lord..where ever the Lord is heaven is...Especially this applies for the Holy Innocent....

What you're saying doesn't sound Gnostic to you?
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009, 01:54:20 AM »


I know that in my own Church I've been told that babies go to heaven.  We don't believe in purgatory or limbo, and our merciful God would not send a baby to hell.  I would think that in the EO Church the belief would be the same.

My understanding is that EOC simply doesn't care to speculate about the categorical fate of a whole demographic of humanity like that. And while I'm not surprised on a local level that you've been taught that innocent infants go to Heaven, I would be surprised if even the Armenian church had an official teaching about the matter.
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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2009, 01:56:57 AM »

Deusveritasest,

Do you have information indicating that any Orthodox Church teaches that God will send babies to hell?

Like I said, to my knowledge there is no official teaching of any hierarchical Orthodox body either for the systematic damnation or salvation of infants.
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2009, 01:59:56 AM »

A few thoughts which I don't claim at up to a coherent whole:

1) Generally, it is the teaching of that Church that only God judges. We do not. We do not speculate about the salvation or damnation of others inside or outside the Church because to do so is to (however unintentionally) usurp a role that belongs solely to the Creator (saints are somewhat of an exception, but the general understanding is still that we do not judge--rather when God reveals/signals to the Church through miracles and the movement of the Holy Spirit in popular devotion, then the Church simply recognizes God's declared judgment). Human nature being what it is, we are rarely able to hold to this strict position, but I"d still suggest that this topic is as inherently fruitless as the 'what happens to the 10th century Polynesian who never heard the Gospel' question.

2) The universal practice of the Church is to baptize infants. We do so because Orthodoxy teaches that, sans the Grace of baptism, human Nature is separated from God. This is our understanding of 'Original Sin.' Infants have no personal guilt, but because they possess the same fallen human nature as the rest of us, they are separated from God (as are the rest of us without the saving Grace of baptism)

3) Orthodoxy does not really see hell as a result of a juridicial condemnation by God. Rather, hell is the result of self-condemnation. The soul that has rejected God, is condemned to continue in its own freely chosen separation from the source of all Good for all eternity. Indeed, it is possible to argue from the Fathers, that after the Last Judgment, we will all be in the same state (apropos of stashko's Scriptural quote)--the soul which has been united to Christ through baptism and the subsequent sacraments, which has striven in whatever meager way to open itself to Grace, will receive its reward in being bathed in the fullness of that Grace. The soul which has rejected God, will also be bathed in the fullness of that Grace. But because the soul rejects that Grace, the Uncreated Light will be as a consuming fire. Not because God wishes it so, but because the soul has refused to prepare itself and so cannot bear it.

Given (1), I really shouldn't go any further into speculation, but if (3) is indeed the case then I don't think any of us can conceive of what the state for an infant who is, by nature, separated from God but not, by will, actively rejecting God. I think we have to entrust that to God.

BUT
4) It is the practice of the Church to pray for the dead. I am open to correction, but I believe the Church uses the exact same prayer for a baptized infant as we do for a baptized adult when either has passed on. By extension, we would pray the same prayers for an unbaptized infant that we would for anyone who had passed away outside the Church. We cannot necessarily know what the effect of these prayers are--but whatever their effect for the decease, they are good for our souls to practice in the Faith that God listens to them.

Wow. This is 100% what I was trying to get at: all of these points!
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2009, 02:02:58 AM »

I have heard it said that St David's sin with Bathsheba indicates that infants go to heaven. Recall that David had sinned with Bathsheba and as a result a child was born. This displeased the Lord and the child soon died.

22 And he said: 'While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I said: Who knoweth whether the LORD will not be gracious to me, that the child may live?    23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.'

David appears to be saying that at some future point he will be re-united with the dead child whereas for the time being, the child cannot return.

All dead souls regardless of their salvation status went to Hades/Sheol at death in that Hebraic worldview. This isn't necessarily not the view of the EOC even now, actually. We just believe that the reality of Paradise, Resurrection, and ascension to Heaven has been actualized by Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean that people don't still go to Hades/Sheol in the meantime. As a matter of fact, the same place was mentioned in the New Testament, and I've seen a number of sources indicating that the EOC still believes in said place.
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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2009, 02:13:37 AM »

What about the Holy Innocent in Revelations that are under the Throne of God asking God for justice every day  .....where did they come from
They obviously must be in heaven.....
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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2009, 02:19:29 AM »


I know that in my own Church I've been told that babies go to heaven.  We don't believe in purgatory or limbo, and our merciful God would not send a baby to hell.  I would think that in the EO Church the belief would be the same.

My understanding is that EOC simply doesn't care to speculate about the categorical fate of a whole demographic of humanity like that. And while I'm not surprised on a local level that you've been taught that innocent infants go to Heaven, I would be surprised if even the Armenian church had an official teaching about the matter.

OK, OK, I know what you and witega are saying.  I think what you are saying is probably more accurate than what I was told, especially given my Church's preference for mystery over speculation. 

But come on.  You know God is not going to send little babies to hell.   Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2009, 02:48:58 AM »

OK, OK, I know what you and witega are saying.  I think what you are saying is probably more accurate than what I was told, especially given my Church's preference for mystery over speculation. 

But come on.  You know God is not going to send little babies to hell.   Smiley

There are 2 pieces here. One is the actual, defined (or rather undefined) theology which I think deusveritasest and myself have tried to address. The other is the kind of gut reaction you express--and if this discussion was purely theoretical, I'd have no problem with what you're saying because I understand where you are coming from. But remember the context: this thread/tangent started with someone saying we didn't need to pray for the innocent victim since we 'know' he's in heaven. And that is why I think the objection needs to be made.

I don't know about the Armenian Church but I would be surprised if the OO is different from EO in this. And the fact is that the Church does pray for an 'innocent of God' when tragedy strikes and such an innocent dies. From my readings, I don't think the Church or the Fathers have ever been very clear on why we pray for anyone of the reposed--that is the Fathers are rather vague about what the actual effect of our prayers are on the fate of any of the reposed--whether they are infants or catachumens or octogenarian hierarchs. But they are clear that it is important that we do pray.

So if the (perfectly natural) gut reaction that so-and-so 'must be saved' leads to neglect of this universally taught duty, then I think it needs to be opposed with the fact that NO we don't know what God is going to do. We only know that we need to pray.
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2009, 02:57:34 AM »

Yeah, I understand again what you are saying.  We do pray for babies.  The only people we don't pray for are the saints, and that is because we are told they are in heaven.  So it follows that since we pray for babies, it's not officially certain they are there.

But come on.   Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2009, 03:44:53 AM »


The Holy Innocent victim is in heaven [paradise]doesn't need our prayers....

Why are you so sure?

From Funeral Ritual for babies:

Quote
Panie Jezu Chryste, Boże nasz, temu, który zrodził sie z wody i
ducha oraz odszedł do Ciebie w nieskalanym życiu obiecałes dac królestwo
niebieskie, i powiedziałes: Pozwólcie dzieciom przychodzic do mnie, takich
bowiem jest królestwo niebieskie, pokornie prosimy, żebys teraz zmarłemu
słudze Twemu nieskalanemu dziecku N. według Twojej prawdziwej obietnicy
dał dziedziczenie królestwa (…)

Translation:

Quote
Lord Jesus Christ, our God. You swore to give Heavenly Kingdom for those who were born from water and Spirit and went to You unspoiled. And said: Let children come to Me, for such there is Heavenly Kingdom. We ask you humbly so that, according to Your promise, you give Your dead servant child N. inheritance of the Kingdom.

Quote
Chrystus, prawdziwy Bóg nasz, rzadzacy żywymi i zmarłymi, dla
modlitw najczystszej swojej Matki, swietych, sławnych i chwalebnych
Apostołów, błogosławionych i bogobojnych Ojców naszych i wszystkich
swietych, dusze zmarłego dziecka N., umiesci w przybytkach sprawiedliwych,
da odpoczynek na łonie Abrahama, zaliczy do sprawiedliwych i zmiłuje sie nad
nami, bo jest Dobrym i Przyjacielem człowieka.

Translation:

Quote
Christ, the Real our God, who's ruling the dead and alive, for the prayers of His purest Mother; saintly, famous and commendable Apostles, blessed and pious Fathers and all Saints; will place the soul of reposed child N. in place for righteous, grant rest on Boss om of Abraham, count to the righteous and will have mercy on us because He is good and a Friend of a man


Quote
Jako Dziecko byłes widzialny Ty, od wieków bedacych, i dzieciom jako
Dobry obiecałes Twoje królestwo, przeto daj je temu dziecku.

Translation:

Quote
You was seen as a Child, who have been for centuries, and You, as good, promised Your Kingdom for children, so grant it for this child

Quote
Prosimy Cie, abys tego, który nie zakosztował ziemskich słodyczy,
szczodrze obdarzył dobrami nadprzyrodzonymi, to małoletnie dziecko, które
zabrałes z Twego Bożego nakazu.

Translation:

Quote
We ask You so that You generously grant the one, who hadn't experienced earthly pleasures, with miraculous goods; the low-yeared child, who You had taken with Your Godly order.

Quote
Jak młoda gałazke miecz smierci uderzył ciebie, jeszcze przed
zakosztowaniem swieckich słodyczy, o błogosławione dziecko, ale Chrystus
otwiera Tobie bramy niebios i łaczy cie z wybranymi jako miłosierny.

Translation:

Quote
As young branch you was hit by the sword of death, before you could experience earthly pleasures, o blessed child, but Christ is opening for you gates of Heaven and communes you with the chosen as Merciful


And many others. Sorry for bad quality of translation but I couldn't find it in any English Euchologion online.
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2009, 05:57:14 AM »

Here's a link to the Orthodox funeral service for little ones in English:

http://biserica.org/Publicatii/ServiceBook/Services/Funeral/Infants.htm

There are significant differences in the text of this service compared to that for laymen, which is here:

http://biserica.org/Publicatii/ServiceBook/Services/Funeral/index.htm
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2009, 06:07:31 AM »


According to our Humble resident and Saintly Father Ambrose that teaches the infallible teaching of the Holy Orthodox church,we are all born immaculate sinless..

No, no.  I didn't say that.   In the thread about the Immaculate Conception what I have said is that the Mother of God and all humankind is conceived in the same spiritual state.
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2009, 06:10:14 AM »

The rite I've posted and the rite LBK have are different (the Romanian one is much shorter) but they make the same sense.
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2009, 06:17:40 AM »


Interesting (read: horrendous) teaching from Saint Augustine that even baptized children go to hell if thyey have not partaken of the Eucharist.

"From all this it follows, that even for the life of infants was His flesh given, which He gave for the life of the world; and that even they will not have life if they eat not the flesh of the Son of man."

http://theburningbush.wordpress.com/2008/10/07/st-augustine-of-hippo-on-infant-baptism/


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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2009, 06:46:20 AM »

My personal thought is, our merciful Lord would not send a baby to hell. But what is the point of baptizing then? If new born babies are sinless, why are they getting baptized?  Huh
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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2009, 07:20:59 AM »

My personal thought is, our merciful Lord would not send a baby to hell. But what is the point of baptizing then? If new born babies are sinless, why are they getting baptized?  Huh


we are baptised into Christs death and ressurection ,for a baby thats sinless no sin to wash away,But for a adult a different story sins are washed away a new biginning,from what i understand..
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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2009, 07:28:52 AM »


According to our Humble resident and Saintly Father Ambrose that teaches the infallible teaching of the Holy Orthodox church,we are all born immaculate sinless..

No, no.  I didn't say that.   In the thread about the Immaculate Conception what I have said is that the Mother of God and all humankind is conceived in the same spiritual state.


Oh! OK Father is the state were born in then is just mortality that we all die eventually ...Huh
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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2009, 08:04:11 AM »

They are baptized so they can receive the body and blood of Christ...

They have been receiving it since they were in the womb... (sorry, but I assume this would be Orthodox) They are baptized so that the body and blood isn't taken away from them upon birth, since they had already been receiving it (assuming) for 9 months of their life already.
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« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2009, 08:14:37 AM »

They are baptized so they can receive the body and blood of Christ...

They have been receiving it since they were in the womb... (sorry, but I assume this would be Orthodox) They are baptized so that the body and blood isn't taken away from them upon birth, since they had already been receiving it (assuming) for 9 months of their life already.

thanks for the direct reply Devin! Wink
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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2009, 08:20:47 AM »

A few thoughts which I don't claim at up to a coherent whole:

1) Generally, it is the teaching of that Church that only God judges. We do not. We do not speculate about the salvation or damnation of others inside or outside the Church because to do so is to (however unintentionally) usurp a role that belongs solely to the Creator (saints are somewhat of an exception, but the general understanding is still that we do not judge--rather when God reveals/signals to the Church through miracles and the movement of the Holy Spirit in popular devotion, then the Church simply recognizes God's declared judgment). Human nature being what it is, we are rarely able to hold to this strict position, but I"d still suggest that this topic is as inherently fruitless as the 'what happens to the 10th century Polynesian who never heard the Gospel' question.

2) The universal practice of the Church is to baptize infants. We do so because Orthodoxy teaches that, sans the Grace of baptism, human Nature is separated from God. This is our understanding of 'Original Sin.' Infants have no personal guilt, but because they possess the same fallen human nature as the rest of us, they are separated from God (as are the rest of us without the saving Grace of baptism)

3) Orthodoxy does not really see hell as a result of a juridicial condemnation by God. Rather, hell is the result of self-condemnation. The soul that has rejected God, is condemned to continue in its own freely chosen separation from the source of all Good for all eternity. Indeed, it is possible to argue from the Fathers, that after the Last Judgment, we will all be in the same state (apropos of stashko's Scriptural quote)--the soul which has been united to Christ through baptism and the subsequent sacraments, which has striven in whatever meager way to open itself to Grace, will receive its reward in being bathed in the fullness of that Grace. The soul which has rejected God, will also be bathed in the fullness of that Grace. But because the soul rejects that Grace, the Uncreated Light will be as a consuming fire. Not because God wishes it so, but because the soul has refused to prepare itself and so cannot bear it.

Given (1), I really shouldn't go any further into speculation, but if (3) is indeed the case then I don't think any of us can conceive of what the state for an infant who is, by nature, separated from God but not, by will, actively rejecting God. I think we have to entrust that to God.

BUT
4) It is the practice of the Church to pray for the dead. I am open to correction, but I believe the Church uses the exact same prayer for a baptized infant as we do for a baptized adult when either has passed on. By extension, we would pray the same prayers for an unbaptized infant that we would for anyone who had passed away outside the Church. We cannot necessarily know what the effect of these prayers are--but whatever their effect for the decease, they are good for our souls to practice in the Faith that God listens to them.
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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2009, 08:32:52 AM »

No, no.  I didn't say that.   In the thread about the Immaculate Conception what I have said is that the Mother of God and all humankind is conceived in the same spiritual state.


Oh! OK Father is the state were born in then is just mortality that we all die eventually ...Huh

I was wondering.  Do you have Father Justin's "Dogmatika"?   My copy is out on loan.  I cannot recall how he approaches the question.

There are Internet sources which are probably useful...

Rags of Mortality: Original Sin and Human Nature
by Archpriest Alexander Golubov, Ph.D.
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/golubov_rags_of_mortality.htm


Original Sin According to St. Paul
by Fr. John S. Romanides
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frjr_sin.aspx
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« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2009, 10:45:30 AM »

...for a baby thats sinless no sin to wash away...

The Church seems to have anathematized that opinion in the Council of Carthage. According to Vladimir Moss, it was confirmed by Sixth and Seventh ecumenical councils. Here's a quote from him:

Quote from: Vladimir Moss
Still more relevant here is Canon 110 of the Council of Carthage in 419: “He
who denies the need for young children and those just born from their
mother’s womb to be baptized, or who says that although they are baptized
for the remission of sins they inherit nothing from the forefathers’ sin that
would necessitate the bath of regeneration [from which it would follow that
the form of baptism for the remission of sins would be used on them not in a
true, but in a false sense], let him be anathema ... For in accordance with this rule of faith
children, too, who are themselves not yet able to commit any sin, are truly
baptized for the remission of sins, that through regeneration they may be
cleansed of everything that they have acquired from the old birth.” This
Canon was confirmed by the Sixth and Seventh Ecumenical Councils, and is
therefore part of the dogmatic teaching of the Holy Orthodox Church.
http://www.orthodoxchristianbooks.com/downloads/127_THE_NEW_SOTERIOLOGY.pdf
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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2009, 01:17:53 PM »

There are children who die before being baptise , but trough their death they reconciliate people , bring people back to God , etc . I think those babies sure go to heaven , and they are used as tools for God`s work.About other unbaptise children , hmmm... I know we can`t even perform a ceremonial at burrial , nor cross on their grave (if I remmber correctly). Are we allowed to pray for them , at least ? My mother had a brother who died unbaptised. And I heard he manifested badly , harming himself , crying , being bad , etc . That is why I asked this . At the time my mother told me this I was not religious but I felt really sorry , and I feel mercy for this child, and I wept.Who can tell me?
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« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2009, 01:46:40 PM »


The Holy Innocent victim is in heaven [paradise]doesn't need our prayers....

Why are you so sure?

The Holy Orthodox  Church says so..........

Where?


As you know, Orthodoxy is not Catholicism, and so much of theology, even "official" theology is not in a catechism, but is safe guarded in our Holy Services, the Liturgical celebrations of the faith. The funeral service for infants is a completely seperate service than for adults or even children. It's been a long time since i've read it (thankfully I've never had to attend on) but if I remember correct, the funeral service for infants simply assumes the infant is in the presence of God. I pretty sure the goarch.org site in it's online chapel section, and liturgical texts subsection has the funeral service for infants. You should check it out.

I'd be shocked if the OO belief is any different, although they might be more inclined to just trust in God's mercy, as I don't know if they have distinct and different funerals for infants like the EO do.

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« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2009, 02:35:08 PM »


Interesting (read: horrendous) teaching from Saint Augustine that even baptized children go to hell if thyey have not partaken of the Eucharist.

"From all this it follows, that even for the life of infants was His flesh given, which He gave for the life of the world; and that even they will not have life if they eat not the flesh of the Son of man."

http://theburningbush.wordpress.com/2008/10/07/st-augustine-of-hippo-on-infant-baptism/
Sorry, Father, but for your citation of this supposedly Augustinian doctrine to be convincing, you're going to need to cite an authority closer to the primary source than a blog entry that doesn't even tell us from what Augustinian text the blogger copied his material.
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« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2009, 03:57:15 PM »

in either the Epistle of Barnabas, or the Shepherd of Hermas it says that all dead infants go to Heaven.
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« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2009, 04:43:28 PM »

My personal thought is, our merciful Lord would not send a baby to hell. But what is the point of baptizing then? If new born babies are sinless, why are they getting baptized?  Huh
I had the same perplexing question on my mind when the Orthodox Priest told me that babies are born without sin and unlike the RC, the EO Church does not believe in original sin like we do. I mention this becasue as a RC it all made sense to me. For example, I was taught this as a RC:

The baby is born with the stain of original sin, therefore it must be baptized to wash away that stain, and introduced into the family of God. As circumcision introduced the newborn Jewish baby (in this case a Jewish boy) into Gods' family, according to the Old Covenant; now Baptism is the spiritual circumcision of the New Covenant.

Colossians 2:11-12
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your sinful nature was put off when you were circumcised by  Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Romans 2:29
 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 
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« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2009, 04:48:51 PM »


Interesting (read: horrendous) teaching from Saint Augustine that even baptized children go to hell if thyey have not partaken of the Eucharist.

"From all this it follows, that even for the life of infants was His flesh given, which He gave for the life of the world; and that even they will not have life if they eat not the flesh of the Son of man."

http://theburningbush.wordpress.com/2008/10/07/st-augustine-of-hippo-on-infant-baptism/
Sorry, Father, but for your citation of this supposedly Augustinian doctrine to be convincing, you're going to need to cite an authority closer to the primary source than a blog entry that doesn't even tell us from what Augustinian text the blogger copied his material.

"On the Merits and Remission of Sins and on the Baptism of Infants" - for which I have just spent 15 minutes searching in vain on CCEL , but I am sure it must be there.
 
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« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2009, 04:54:38 PM »

What about the Holy Innocent in Revelations that are under the Throne of God asking God for justice every day  .....where did they come from
They obviously must be in heaven.....

The Holy Innocents are glorified Saints.
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« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2009, 04:56:17 PM »


But come on.  You know God is not going to send little babies to hell.   Smiley

In the context of making flexible and subjective speculations, I would say that most if not possibly all infants will inherit Paradise.
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« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2009, 04:58:21 PM »

OK, OK, I know what you and witega are saying.  I think what you are saying is probably more accurate than what I was told, especially given my Church's preference for mystery over speculation. 

But come on.  You know God is not going to send little babies to hell.   Smiley

There are 2 pieces here. One is the actual, defined (or rather undefined) theology which I think deusveritasest and myself have tried to address. The other is the kind of gut reaction you express--and if this discussion was purely theoretical, I'd have no problem with what you're saying because I understand where you are coming from. But remember the context: this thread/tangent started with someone saying we didn't need to pray for the innocent victim since we 'know' he's in heaven. And that is why I think the objection needs to be made.

I don't know about the Armenian Church but I would be surprised if the OO is different from EO in this. And the fact is that the Church does pray for an 'innocent of God' when tragedy strikes and such an innocent dies. From my readings, I don't think the Church or the Fathers have ever been very clear on why we pray for anyone of the reposed--that is the Fathers are rather vague about what the actual effect of our prayers are on the fate of any of the reposed--whether they are infants or catachumens or octogenarian hierarchs. But they are clear that it is important that we do pray.

So if the (perfectly natural) gut reaction that so-and-so 'must be saved' leads to neglect of this universally taught duty, then I think it needs to be opposed with the fact that NO we don't know what God is going to do. We only know that we need to pray.

Yep. I'm agreeing with you again. And I'm thinking that the sheer possibility that any infant might be in danger of hellfire should be our cause for praying fervently for them.
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« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2009, 05:01:55 PM »


According to our Humble resident and Saintly Father Ambrose that teaches the infallible teaching of the Holy Orthodox church,we are all born immaculate sinless..

No, no.  I didn't say that.   In the thread about the Immaculate Conception what I have said is that the Mother of God and all humankind is conceived in the same spiritual state.

And now that I think about it, it would seem that the idea that we are "all born immaculate and sinless" is actually contrary to the standard teaching of the EOC, unless by this we are exclusively talking about the hereditary guilt of Latinism. No?
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« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2009, 05:03:11 PM »


Interesting (read: horrendous) teaching from Saint Augustine that even baptized children go to hell if thyey have not partaken of the Eucharist.

"From all this it follows, that even for the life of infants was His flesh given, which He gave for the life of the world; and that even they will not have life if they eat not the flesh of the Son of man."

http://theburningbush.wordpress.com/2008/10/07/st-augustine-of-hippo-on-infant-baptism/

And subsequently the West stopped serving infants Confirmation and Holy Communion. WTH?
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