OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 22, 2014, 08:11:46 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Jurisdictional Disunity and the Russian Mission  (Read 15609 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2009, 09:32:48 AM »

I blame the pews.

I blame the non-headscarf-wearing feminist pro-choice lesbian single mothers who play pipe organs (while sitting in pews).
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 09:35:32 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2009, 09:43:16 AM »

Yeah, these are just warm ups.  The real quarreling like children starts later.

Warm ups? These are warm ups? The Antioch thread is a warm up too is it? And every other thread which attacks and insults "other" Churches of Christ as though we were talking about football teams? This is how Orthodox in the US warm up is it?

Your persecusion complex is showing.  The Orthodox in the US aren't warming up.  They aren't invited to the June get together to decide their fate, remember?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2009, 09:51:17 AM »

Your persecusion complex is showing. 
You're lousy spelling is showing. You must be upset.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2009, 09:55:43 AM »

They aren't invited to the June get together to decide their fate, remember?
So the fate of the Church will be decided in June will it?
Can I hold you to that?

Post bookmarked. See you in early July to remark on how dramatically the fate of the Church in the US has changed.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 09:58:22 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2009, 10:09:33 AM »

Quote
You're lousy spelling is showing. You must be upset.

Projecting, are we?  No, in the best of moods I'm a lousy speller in English.

I haven't had enough coffee yet: what the psychiatric/psychological term for focusing on the minutiae to avoid the main poiint?

Quote
So the fate of the Church will be decided in June will it?
LOL.  So the EP thinks.

Quote
Can I hold you to that?

No, but your patriarch will hold you to it.



Quote
Post bookmarked. See you in early July to remark on how dramatically the fate of the Church in the US has changed.
About as much as after the Tomos of 1908.


Quote
Making claims such as the fate of the US Church will be decided in June.
I've got a memory for these things, remember?


Are you indentifying the percipitating event/factors?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 10:21:45 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2009, 10:11:45 AM »

what the psychiatric/psychological term for focusing on the minutiae to avoid the main poiint?

Making claims such as the fate of the US Church will be decided in June.
I've got a memory for these things, remember? Smiley
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2009, 10:21:09 AM »

Quote
Quote
So the fate of the Church will be decided in June will it?
LOL.  So the EP thinks.
No Isa. You think the EP thinks this, but then you thought that I thought the Roman Empire was Greek didn't you?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 10:23:20 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2009, 10:30:47 AM »

Quote
Quote
So the fate of the Church will be decided in June will it?
LOL.  So the EP thinks.
No Isa. You think the EP thinks this,

Just going by his official mouthpiece, the Chief Secretary.

Quote
but then you thought that I thought the Roman Empire was Greek didn't you?

No.  But the Phanariots did and do.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2009, 10:37:19 AM »

No.  But the Phanariots did and do.

Oooooooo! There's that word. Everyone tremble with fear! Roll Eyes
A very very petty man needs to resort to namecalling.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 10:38:36 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2009, 10:46:17 AM »

I apologize for calling you a "New Zealender" a few weeks back.  That was uncalled for.

Nobody deserves that.
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2009, 11:46:35 AM »

I apologize for calling you a "New Zealender" a few weeks back.  That was uncalled for.

Nobody deserves that.

Just think if we could all live within the canonical territory of the Patriarchate of New Zealand. 
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2009, 01:31:40 PM »

No.  But the Phanariots did and do.

Oooooooo! There's that word. Everyone tremble with fear! Roll Eyes
A very very petty man needs to resort to namecalling.

It's called precision in nomenclature.  Same reason that I don't use the term "Byzantine" when I am speaking of the Empire of the Romans, just when I am speaking of the politics of its pale imitation in the Phanar, of which the Tomos of 1908 and Bp/Archp/EP/Pope Meletius' duplicity over it are perfect examples.  The follow up on that policy by the Chief Secretary, displaying a total ignorance of the history of those Orthodox in the Phanar commonwealth a/k/a Rum Millet-i ("At no point, the spirit of nationalism took hold of the Ecumenical Patriarchate because that is incompatible with the concepts of Hellenism and Ecumenicity (ecumenical character) as well as with the Christian Orthodox faith. The proof of this emerges in the most decisive manner throughout the 17 centuries of its history, during which it never Hellenized, not even attempted to Hellenize the nations to which it gave through its apostolic missions the undying light of Christ"), coupled with, as Met. Jonah's pointed out, a willful (?) ignorance of the Russian Mission and its jurisdictional unity, shows things haven't changed.  It is rather ironic that the CS takes Met. Jonah's own words "now only the Greek ethnic Churches and few others recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate to be what it claims to be," and then, unwittingly, confirms them: "The Ecumenical Patriarchate neither had nor has territorial claims against the sister Orthodox Churches. That truth is testified by the fact that, although the Patriarchates of the East were virtually destroyed during the difficult times of the 17th and 18th centuries, nevertheless, the Patriarchate of Constantinople was taking the care to have a Patriarch elected for those Patriarchates, supporting their primates in every possible way."  The Truth of the matter is that the Phanar held a court of absentee Patriarchs for Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem and Cyprus (the ones the CS must mean if his words are to have any truth to them), those very Greek ethnic Churches (Antioch only having escaped with Russian help, St. Raphael playing a pivotal role it seems in that an in the unity of the mission in America, and the canonical unity there) which, as Met. Jonah states, are the only ones now who feign to believe the EP's interpretation of canon 28 as regards the jurisdiction of the Americas.  And again, Bp/Abp/EP/Pope Meletius' career epitomizes that.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20737.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20573.msg310522.html#msg310522

Going by jurisdiction, everyone knows (or should know) in Antioch/Syria, Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania and Romania what Phanariot means, and shudder at it.  In Jerusalem they can't but help to know, as it is not history but present reality.  In Alexandria we know, but since things weren't as bad or as acrimonios (even despite Pope Meletius' consoling himself in Egypt for the loss of the title EP), except for the suppression of our Rite, there isn't much to complain about.  The recycling of the EO population in Egypt have seen to that, we're all "ajaanib."  We Arab Orthodox at least are non"balady."  The Copts have a different story.  (btw, in Coptic, "Roman," again, is the word for "Greek").

The Russians, Poles, Czech/Slovaks only knew of the Romans as Greeks, going so far as to adopt the term "Greek" from Latin.

I haven't a clue as to the Georgians thoughts on the matter, except that St. Antim the Iberian, although ordained at the Phanar and serving there, made his mark when he left at the request of the Romanian ruler of Wallachia, where St. Antim set about raising Romanian to a liturgical language, cosolidated Arabic as one (and becoming a father of the Arabic press in the process), before founding the Georgian press back in his homeland, besides an output in Church Slavonic.  That was until the Ottomans deposed the Romanians in Romania and sent Phanariots as their agents: an implacable foe of the Ottomans, St. Antim was exiled by the first Phanariot hospodar Nicholas Mavrocordatos (founder of the Phanariots' "Byzantium after Byzantium" on the Danube) to Mt. Sinai.  His Ottomans lords, however, martyred St. Antim on the way in Bulgaria.

Met. Jonah's recent sermon shows he knows what the term means.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2009, 04:53:33 PM »

No.  But the Phanariots did and do.

Oooooooo! There's that word. Everyone tremble with fear! Roll Eyes
A very very petty man needs to resort to namecalling.

A nice little example of the phanar mentality to claim the title of "Roman" (and hence universal jurisdiction), while showing how parochial they can be in doing so.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21155.45.html
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,612



« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2009, 05:01:46 PM »

How many roads (and all roads lead to Rome) must a man walk down, before you can call him a Roman? 
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2009, 10:08:21 PM »

How many roads (and all roads lead to Rome) must a man walk down, before you can call him a Roman? 

Not too many, if Jalaluddin Rumi is any indication.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,178


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2009, 11:25:15 PM »

Isa, I'm having trouble seeing how your virulent bit of EP bashing is connected to the subject of this thread:  Jurisdictional Disunity and the Russian Mission.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2009, 01:04:22 AM »

Isa, I'm having trouble seeing how your virulent bit of EP bashing is connected to the subject of this thread:  Jurisdictional Disunity and the Russian Mission.

The Tomos of 1908:
Quote
As per canonical order and as has been the practice for centuries, all Orthodox communities outside the canonical geographical boundaries of the Holy Churches of God are under the pastoral governing of the Most Holy Apostolic and Patriarchal Ecumenical Throne. Since it has become more practical for administrative reasons to unite the Greek communities of Europe, America and elsewhere, to the Most Holy Autocephalous Church of Greece, it has proved necessary to transfer the pastoral responsibility for these communities to the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Uh4VnseTNZkC&pg=PA134&dq=Tomos+1908#PPA137,M1

Note, Constantinople is here giving parishes that she had no part in forming, in lands nowhere near her where she never evangelized nor sent any mission, which no bishop of hers ever saw let alone consecrated, to an equally alien Synod.  It speaks of jurisdiction over the Orthodox, but then makes provision only for the "Greek communities."  My "virulent bit of EP bashing," i.e. the quote from the official website of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, is also rife with such muddling of distinctions between Greek and Orthodox.  Note also that St. Tikhon had by the time of the Tomos held the first All American Council, returned to Russia and evidently was pushing for a Greek vicar bishop in the Russian Mission, and the Greek parishes either join, or in many cases, rejoin, the Russian Mission.

This remained all on paper until Met./Arch. (recently so elected/Ep (he had already tried to be elected to that throne)/Pope Meletius got a hold to it.  At a of the bishops of the Holy Synod of Greece, none of whom had been to America or had any dealings with it, he created the "Archdiocese of America" to govern "all Greek Orthodox of permanent and/or temporary residence in North and South America," to "be considered as one of the Dioceses of the Autocephalous Church of Greece."  It named Archbishop of Athens Meletios as the exarch, so it had no resident bishop, in contrast to the Russian Mission, which had a resident bishop for nearly a century.  This bishop the Archbishop of Athens Meletios dismissed as "a Russian Bishop on American soil without the permission of the Ecumenical Patriarchate."  His conclusions to the Holy Synod I've already posted:

Archb. Metaxakis' of Athens speech to the Holy Synod of Greece in 1920 concerning his visit to America:
Quote
The Patriarchal Tome of 1908 directed the immediate assignment of a Greek Bishop in America.   However I learned in America that for a decade, diplomatic pressures prevented the implementation of the Patriarchal Tome.  Upon my arrival, I waited for the Russian Bishop to come to me; however, he did not.  In order to give him the opportunity, I sent Archimandrites Chrysostom and Alexander to him. He, in turn, reciprocated by sending an Archimandrite to visit me.  I then realized that he expected me to visit him, thus recognizing him as the canonical Bishop in America, under whose jurisdiction the Greek Church ought to belong.  I held a press conference with the Greek and English language newspapers, in which I quoted Orthodox teaching relative to lands outside the existing Patriarchal boundaries that canon law places them under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Thus, the Church in America is under the canonical authority of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and only by its authority can certain actions be taken.    Our presence in America is by virtue of the permission granted by the Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Tome of 1908, rendering us the only canonical jurisdiction[emph. in the original] No other such permission has been granted.  We are aware only that the Patriarchate of Antioch requested the permission of the Patriarchate to send the Bishop of Seleucia to America for the needs of the Syrian Orthodox.  Prior to this, Efthymios, who was ordained by the Russians for the Syrians, but never recognized by the Patriarchate of Antioch, was abandoned by the Russians.  This event reinforced our position regarding canonicity in America.  Throughout our presence in America, the Russian Bishop attempted indirectly to impose this position of hegemony, yet never openly or officially
http://books.google.com/books?id=Uh4VnseTNZkC&pg=PA137&dq=Galveston+Orthodox&lr=#PPA137,M1

Change Russian to OCA, and see how little has changed.  The GOARCH was set up, not in ignorance of the Russian Archdiocese, but in defiance of it.

The Tomos of 1908 made provision only for "the Greek communities," but here that becomes "the only canonical jurisdiction."  In fact, as the quote shows, he only dealt with the Greeks and evaded anyone one else, in particular the Russian Mission's bishop.  Bishop Efthymios was very much in the Russian camp, as I've posted:
Quote
Our journey to the kingdom began in 1895, when Archimandrite Raphael Hawaweeny arrived to these blessed shores of North America. On March 12, 1904, Raphael was consecrated Bishop of Brooklyn, New York and was the first Orthodox Bishop to be ordained in North America. Unfortunately, Bishop Raphael fell asleep in the Lord in 1915, having served only eleven rich years.

In 1917, Aftimios Ofiesh was consecrated Archbishop and served until 1933. 
http://www.antiochian.org/node/17070
so there was no disunity in the Russian jurisdiction.  Rather that "reinforc[ing the EP's] position regarding canonicity in America," it undermined it.  So just deny it, and maybe it will go away.  Hasn't worked in 90 years.  The non-existent Greek mission becomes the "only canonical" one, by fiat of the EP.  Quite a feat, and one that EP thinks to continue.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2009, 01:16:53 AM »

No.  But the Phanariots did and do.

Oooooooo! There's that word. Everyone tremble with fear! Roll Eyes
A very very petty man needs to resort to namecalling.

A nice little example of the phanar mentality
"the phanar" eh?  It just gets better.
How old are you?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #63 on: May 08, 2009, 01:17:47 AM »

Isa, I'm having trouble seeing how your virulent bit of EP bashing is connected to the subject of this thread:  Jurisdictional Disunity and the Russian Mission.
Where there's a thread there's a troll.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,178


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #64 on: May 08, 2009, 01:27:56 AM »

Isa, I'm having trouble seeing how your virulent bit of EP bashing is connected to the subject of this thread:  Jurisdictional Disunity and the Russian Mission.
Where there's a thread there's a troll.
He really DOESN'T want the vultures to get this horse, does he?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2009, 10:54:25 AM »

No.  But the Phanariots did and do.

Oooooooo! There's that word. Everyone tremble with fear! Roll Eyes
A very very petty man needs to resort to namecalling.

A nice little example of the phanar mentality
"the phanar" eh?  It just gets better.
How old are you?

It seems just slightly older than you.  But as we say in Egypt "Older by a day, wiseer by a year."

So, you're quite fine with the antics of the Brotherhood in Palestine?  And the application of the same "principles" to North America?

Isa, I'm having trouble seeing how your virulent bit of EP bashing is connected to the subject of this thread:  Jurisdictional Disunity and the Russian Mission.
Where there's a thread there's a troll.
He really DOESN'T want the vultures to get this horse, does he?

Maybe the PoM et alia will do us the favor of delivering the coup de grace this June, and we can remove the carcass at our Council in July, and return to a united jurisdiction here.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 7,006



« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2009, 11:44:18 AM »

Isa, I'm having trouble seeing how your virulent bit of EP bashing is connected to the subject of this thread:  Jurisdictional Disunity and the Russian Mission.
Where there's a thread there's a troll.
He really DOESN'T want the vultures to get this horse, does he?

Christ is Risen!

Granted that ialmisry can be overwhelming in his argumentation, I don't think that he can be accused of not being respectful to those folks that he is talking with through this wonderful forum. After all, the greatest compliment that one can pay to one's correspondent is to take great pains to advance one's side.

That said, PeterTheAleut and Ozgeorge are instead using frankly rude ejaculatory statements that make fun of and belittle him--with Oz being the worse offender. I am saying this because I think that you are writing as contributors and not as moderators when you cheapen the to-and-fro on this forum. I would never criticize moderators in the open if they were writing in their official capacities. I may of course be quite wrong and I apologize in advance if I have committed a breach of forum rules.

Regarding the EP and his place in this thread, ialmisry explained it perfectly well: The Patriarchate of Constantinople wants to be in charge of all lands not currently under the jurisdiction of an autocephalous church that is recognized by it. The Patriarchate has thus injected itself, much like the Bishop of Rome in the Roman Catholic Church, into every topic, everywhere. It's representatives and advocates then have the temerity to complain when other Orthodox folk "bash" the Patriarchate. This is a ridiculously transparent case of wanting to eat one's cake and keep it too. What makes it worse is when these same representatives and advocates resort to unworthy attacks on critics by mounting ad hominem attacks, such as calling ialmisry a "troll."

Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,612



« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2009, 01:14:23 PM »

I must say that it is not helpful for people on this forum to lump all into two categories with broad-blanket labels and accusations.  Name-calling on an individual level is not good.  However, there is provocation to anger from both sides.  I have now seen several posts doing this with regard to EP's "representatives and advocates," which itself has ad hominem implications.  Although in this strand I have not seend the opposite--broadly applied accusations against supporters of the OCA claims, I am sure that it exists from past strains and thus there is this "baggage" from "both sides" so to speak.   I think it is a disease if we cannot treat each other as persons rather than as "fragments of a faction."  It resounds with the old "I am of Cephas, you are of Paul" tonality.   We have to deal with each other as persons.  Some have less baggage and some have more going into discussions of this type, but nonetheless we are all persons and to those who are actually trying to see the merits of the perspectives that differ from their own are serving a good purpose in the conversation.  Otherwise, instead of balanced conversation toward a consensus it is negative factionalism that results and indeed that we are strengthening.  There may be disagreements, but only if we are committed to seeing the merits of the "other side" and not just its weaknesses can we possibly add something to the discussion. 
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 7,006



« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2009, 02:24:54 PM »

I must say that it is not helpful for people on this forum to lump all into two categories with broad-blanket labels and accusations.  Name-calling on an individual level is not good.  However, there is provocation to anger from both sides.  I have now seen several posts doing this with regard to EP's "representatives and advocates," which itself has ad hominem implications.  Although in this strand I have not seend the opposite--broadly applied accusations against supporters of the OCA claims, I am sure that it exists from past strains and thus there is this "baggage" from "both sides" so to speak.   I think it is a disease if we cannot treat each other as persons rather than as "fragments of a faction." 

Christ is risen!

You are right and I apologize. In the future, I will not treat people as fragments of a faction, unless they clearly are (for example, an official of a faction). Thank you for your kind correction.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
observer
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 546

Vivre die Raznitsa!


« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2009, 02:44:10 PM »

Excellent point! -In Jerusalem they can't but help to know, as it is not history but present reality.
Logged

Thou shalt not prefer one thing to another (Law of Liberalism)
frost
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian, grew up in OCA
Posts: 108


« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2009, 02:45:22 PM »

Christ Is Risen !

As I mentioned in another, related thread, the contentious exchanges on both sides arise from deep seated frustrations and fears !

The leaders of the OCA did not snub the First Among Equals, the Ecumenical Patriarch. They actually petitioned to be received under the Ecumenical Patriarchate 50 years ago; but were rejected. They entered into discussion with the Moscow Patriarchate only in obedience to Patriarch Athenagoras, of blessed memory. (Remember: this was during the height of the Cold War and Khrushchev's anti-church campaign !)  When the outcome of those discussions resulted in the Tomos of Autocephaly, that was rejected. Thus the OCA has been damned if they do, damned if the don't. Now it appears that the fate of the OCA is to be decided by a forum to which the OCA is not even invited as an observer. Of course, they are frightened. They might well be proscribed without even a chance to speak on their own behalf.

We all know the heroic, and tragic history of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which His All Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew once called, "synstavromeni ekklesia imas" (our co-crucifed church). It is the exceptional postion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate that has  helped it to survive all these centuries of persecution. Thus, any questioning of that exceptional status, can be seen as an existential attack.

We should at least try, during these holy days of Pascha, to try to look at the issue from both sides withour rancor and personal attacks.

"Let us call brothers even those that hate us, and forgive all by the Resurrection"  Paschal Stichera
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2009, 09:44:00 AM »

That is a lot easier to digest.

What would you say to the assertion he makes in his quoted statement that Antioch sought the permission of the EP to send a bishop to the US?

A nice summary on this "bishop of Seleucia":
Quote
Metr. Germanos Shehadi of Zahle and BaalbekMetropolitan Germanos Shehadi of Zahle originally came to the United States before the death of St. Raphael of Brooklyn (1915) to raise funds for a project in his diocese in Lebanon. After Raphael's death, however, he openly campaigned to become his successor in leading the Syro-Antiochian parishes in America, eventually forming his own rogue diocese in 1916.

Despite numerous orders of recall from the Antiochian synod in Damascus to return to shepherding his own diocese, Germanos remained in America, leading various groups of Antiochians and also, for a time, a Ukrainian faction, until he finally departed in 1933. During his time in America, he was a major rival to and nemesis of Abp. Aftimios Ofiesh, Raphael's official successor.

Much of Germanos's success amongst the Syro-Antiochians was based not only on his fine singing voice and great charisma, but also because he was well known and related to many clergy and parishioners from the Zahle region. As a result, many of Germanos's parishes eventually became part of the Toledo Archdiocese under Metr. Samuel David, another son of Zahle.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/asdamick/
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2009, 12:26:00 PM »

So, no it seems impossible that the Greeks, either CoG or the Phanar, were unaware of the Russian bishop's presence.  But that they felt they had to deny it is telling.

Came across some more on this topic:
Quote
St Raphael’s Consecration

....As far as the general public was concerned, the consecration was a decidedly Russian affair. The newspapers referred to it as being at the Tsar’s orders, and at the celebratory dinner, the Tsar was toasted and the Russian national anthem was sung. One of the first public acts of the new Bishop Raphael was to visit the Russian ambassador in Washington.[v]

These facts did not please the local Greeks one bit. They saw it as an act of Russian imperial expansion, and it contributed to the growing Greek fear that Russian Church aimed to spread its influence across Orthodoxy worldwide. The Greek consul in New York chose not to attend the consecration, and his absence itself made headlines.[vi][“Greeks Angry at the Czar,” New York Sun (March 15, 1904), 12 and “Fear Russian Rule of Church,” New York Tribune (March 15, 1904), 6] A few weeks later, on Holy Friday, Bishop Tikhon tried to visit Holy Trinity, one of the Greek churches in New York. Fr. John Erickson writes, “He was barred from entering by its angry trustees, who feared a Russian takeover of their parish properties.
http://orthodoxhistory.org/?cat=8
http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=199#comments

Quote
In the late 1920s, after Abp. Aftimios Ofiesh (the successor to St. Raphael in the see of Brooklyn and the subject of my M.Div. thesis and possible future book) had in 1927 established, with the blessing of the Russian Metropolia, the so-called “American Orthodox Catholic Church,” he engaged in something of a debate via correspondence with Abp. Alexander Demoglou, the Greek archbishop for America. In the debate, he repeatedly made the claim that the Russians had for 130 years had jurisdiction in America, and that since 1927 his new autocephalous jurisdiction was the sole canonical authority for the United States, as the rightful successor to the Russian presence. He also asserted that all Orthodox in America had accepted Russian authority prior to the 1921-22 establishment of the Greek Archdiocese.

Alexander’s replies to Aftimios are consistent in asserting the now-infamous interpretation of Chalcedon Canon 28, namely, that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has jurisdiction in the “diaspora.” He also writes that Alaska, while it was Russian territory, rightly belonged to Moscow, but that it is another thing entirely to “jump” from there to Canada and the U.S.

As I was re-reading some of this correspondence, I was interested in note one element of Alexander’s arguments (quoted here verbatim from a March 4, 1929, letter to Aftimios
  • ):


The Canons, which you mis-quote, do not apply in the case of the Orthodox Church in America. They regard certain provinces, particularly rural localities, outside the defined limits of established Patriarchates or autocephalous Churches or Metropolises. How could it be otherwise, since, in accordance with Canon 28 of the Fourth Oecumenical Council, (and as you confess in your letter) the Oecumenical Patriarhate (or as you rather contemtuously prefer to call it the Constantinople Patriarchate and the Constantinopolitan Bishops) “has the primary right to assert jurisdiction over the faithful in the Diaspora”, (which includes American as well). Such being the case, it makes no difference if our Russian brethren attempted to impose their ecclesiastical rule in a territory canonically accorded to the Oecumenical Patriarchate, no matter if these attempts lasted for 3, 30 or 130 years. Te lawful incumbent does not thereby lose his rights to the pretenders. The Russians were all this time conscious of their precarious un-canonical standing, and that is why they exercized, during the Tsarist Regime immense political pressure to bear upon the Oecumenical Patriarchate to force it to accept and recognize the Russian claims over the Orthodox in America. In selfdefense, the Patriarchate temporarily conceded the Churches of America to the Church of Greece. You are, no doubt, familiar with the sinister designs of the overthrown Tsarist Regime of Russia, and, especially, of the then powerful Pan-Slavistic Society, seeking to promulgate, under the cloak of religion, the abortive ends of the oppressing Tsarist Russian Imperialism. Being of Syrian descent, you must of course be aware of their intrigues in connection with the Patriarchates of Antioch and Jerusalem, with Mt. Athos and so on. Likewise, American Orthodoxy felt the weight of similar designs and intrigues. Therefore, you are not supposed to be taken by surprise, when we speak of Tsarist pressure.

This was new to me. I had heard of pressure from the Turkish government on Constantinople due to Greek priests in America engaging in anti-Turkish activities, but this is the first time I’ve read about there also being “Tsarist pressure.” No doubt this fell on fairly deaf ears, since the Tsarist government was looked upon by many Arab Orthodox Christians in the Middle East as a benefactor.

Alexander goes on in the same letter to rebut Aftimios’s claim that all Orthodox in America previously accepted Russian rule:


It is not true that any group of Greeks in America did ever willingly recognize the asserted Russian jurisdiction in America. On the contrary, it is historically true, that they fought staunchly these baseless claims, especially in 1907, when the Russian Church tried to legalize their pretentions by legislative act with the legislature of the State of New York. The Greeks rose as one man and happily annulled these designs. It is also a contravention of the true for you to assert that, at the time I came to this country, “I found one of your Syrian Priests (presumably the Rev. Joseph Xanthopoulos) in charge of a Parish of Greek people under your jurisdiction.” The Greek Communities of Wilkesbarre, Pa, and Scranton, Pa., where the said Priest has served, belonged always to the Greek Church. And not only the Greeks, but also the most important sections of other Orthodox nationalities in America, did and do reject the Russian jurisdiction. We had in the past, and, espesially after the war, we have numerous national Orthodox Churches in America, like the Serbian, Rumanian, etc. which ignore entirely the Russian authority and are under the direct jurisdiction of their respective Churches in Serbia, Rumania, etc. The same is true and even more so with the Syrian Church, where, perhaps the majority of the Syrian Orthodox in this country, opposed and still oppose you and your Russian superiors. There are more than one schisms in your own Church. Some remain faithful to the Patriarchate of Antioch and to its representative in America, Bishop Victor; others recognize the Metropolitan of Selefkia Germanos; still others are “independent”. Thus, your assertion that the Russian Church and its creations in America were universally accepted by the Orthodox people in America, and that they “governed the whole North American Province undisputedly, peacefuly and without opposition”, falls to pieces. I believe, one is justified to add here, without malice: My brother, before attempting to put in order your neighbor’s house, first, put in order your own household.

He also later writes that in 1921, the Russian-American hierarchy recognized his own jurisdiction:


…your superior prelates of the Russian jurisdiction, by an official communication of theirs, as far back as 1921, “look to me and to my Canonical Superiors as the head in America North and South of the interests of the Hellenic members of our faith” and “until further action by the Oecumenical Patriarchate at Constantinople … are in full Communion with me, as the only valid and Canonical head of the Hellenic Mission for care of the spiritual interests of citizens and former citizens of the Kingdom of Greece” etc.

That’s a particularly curious admission on the part of the Russians! Not only do they admit some sort of jurisdiction to Alexander, but they definite it as a “Mission” and particularly on ethnic/national terms. As you might imagine, Aftimios’s reply to this comment is that it was just a temporary “permission” granted by the Russians, though that doesn’t much square with their language of “until further action by the Oecumenical Patriarchate at Constantinople.”

In any event, the 1920s and 1930s remain, for me, one of the most fascinating periods in the history of Orthodoxy in America.
http://orthodoxhistory.org/?cat=8
http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=286#comments

Not as fascinating as the 1890s, 1900s and 1910s.

As the assertions of Bp. Alexander can be demonstrated as false (Burgess, writting in 1914 and therefore a near contemporary source, himself points out that the Greeks were under the Russians until they became numerous enough to split off), what remains is the obvious fact that, quite contrary to Met/Archb/EP/Pope Meletius assertions above, the Greeks, Athens and Constatinople, were well aware of the Russian hierarchy in the Americas.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2009, 09:34:47 PM »

So are we to place a canonical diocese on a par with the situation described below?  BY NO MEANS!

Just came across a 1912 work, "The people of the Eastern Orthodox churches, the separated churches of the east, and other Slavs; report of the commission appointed by the missionary department of New England to consider the work of co-operating with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the seperated churches of the East, and other Slavs."

http://www.archive.org/stream/peopleofeasterno00epis/peopleofeasterno00epis_djvu.txt

As the Episcopalians were obsessed with us at the time, they took the time to look into and record our affairs.  What they found in America:

Quote
The Greek clergy in America — about half married and half monastic unmarried priests — are under the jurisdiction of the Holy Synod of Athens. They greatly need a bishop. Some are well educated, some are not. The parishes are far too large, and many of the priests seem to lack true missionary zeal, and have become imbued with the spirit of commercialism. The absence of any bishop and the complete control of parishes by the community committees have made possible unfortunate divisions in some places, as at present in Boston. There are also some Greek priests in America who have come without the authority of their bishops, who, underbidding the priests of rightful authority, breed disturbances. There are probably enough Greek priests in New England for emergency calls, as baptisms, marriages, and funerals; but certainly not enough to minister to the sick and dying, nor for anything like proper pastoral care of the well. Especially is this true in the many towns where there are but handfuls of Greeks.

The Greeks are fairly faithful in church attendance, and their fasts and confessions and communions are not neglected; especially do they flock to church on the great feast days. The younger immigrants, however, are learning the American non-churchgoing habit. The Greek clergy are friendly to our clergy, and all Greeks look with a certain favor on our American Church, and generally understand her catholic and non-proselytizing position. Protestant proselytizing they have learned in Greece to abhor. When they do attend Protestant churches, and our churches too, for that matter, it is usually for the sake of familiarizing themselves with the English language. Of the Church of Rome they will have naught, nor will they in any way affiliate with the Orthodox churches under the Russian hierarchy of New York, for the sad antagonism of Pan-Slavism and Pan-Hellenism is as rife in America as it is in the East....

There was, however episcopal oversight for those who submitted to canonical order:
Quote
The Orthodox there and elsewhere have been told to attend our services but not to communicate. Last year, however, the attitude of the present Syrian Orthodox bishop in America changed, and he no longer wishes his people to attend our services. He has withdrawn his request that our clergy minister to Orthodox Syrians in emergencies...The next largest division is the Eastern Orthodox. These Orthodox, about 33 per cent of the Syrians in New
England, are all apparently under Bishop Raphael. This Syrian Bishop derives his authority from the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, but is closely connected with the Russian Archbishop in New York. The Syrian Cathedral is at 320 Pacific Street, Brooklyn, N. Y...

The Church of Russia is essentially a missionary church. A great amount of Christian work has been done among the tribes of her Asiatic empire. Self-denying missionaries have brought the gospel to the Eskimos and Indians of Alaska, and a large number of the Japanese have been Christianized, so that there is in Japan a vigorous branch of the Russian Church. The Church also supports Christian work among the Russian immigrants in America, aiding in the support of the clergy and contributions toward the building of churches....The best way at present to estimate the number of Little Russians who have come from Russia to this country is to get at tlic numljcr of members reported by the Russian Orthotlox Church. In the religious census of 1900 the Russian Church reported a membership of 20,000, including converts from the Uniat Ruthenians in America. There are probably a good many thousand scattered Russian Orthodox, either too few to form a congregation in any locality or else only temporarily in this country. Those who have studied the matter making estimates ranging from 100,000 to 200,000, the majority of which number are Little Russians....

The first Ruthenian Uniat priest who came with his wife to the United States was met with the suspicion of his brother priests of the Roman CathoHc Church, and had great difficulty in being recognized by the Roman bishops to whom he brought his credentials. Even to-day with more than 80 churches,
some of them costing between S50,000 and $100,000 and often the finest church in the town, the Uniats are nevertheless regarded with distrust by the majority of the Roman Catholic laity, who have been taught the celibacy of the clergy almost as a matter of faith. Especially do the ardent Irish find
it hard to reconcile the existing conditions, for to them the married clergy with their wives and families are a great scandal. The Uniats, with their Easter weeks later, with their strange churches, the great iconostas hiding the altar, the icons. Mass in the Slavic language, and the bearded priests, present so unfamiliar a sight to the ordinary Romanist, even to a priest, that the natural result is almost a feeling of antipathy. An Irish American bishop is confronted with the difficult problem of reconciling his Irish, Polish, German, and French Canadian celibate clergy with his Ruthenian married clergy. In the religious census report for 1906 the Russian Orthodox Church converts from the Uniat Church are explained in this way: "The members of these [Uniat] churches on coming to America found themselves compelled to use the liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church, and be under the jurisdiction of local bishops who in general either knew nothing about the Unia or did not take it into account. In seeking relief from this position one of the Uniat parishes in Minneapolis became aware of the existence in the United States of a see of the Russian Orthodox, and in 1891, under the leadership of the Rev. Alexis G. Toth, petitioned the Russian Bishop Vladimir to take them all under his jurisdiction within the pale of the Russian Church. Bishop Vladimir willingly complied with the request, and during the time of Bishop Nicholas, who succeeded him, the example of the parish in Minneapolis was followed by a number of Uniat
parishes." A large part of the Russian churches in America at present are built up of converted Ruthenian Uniats to the number of about 40,000, and the priests of the Russian hierarchy in this country are mostly Little Russians.

Russian Orthodox GO churches, 20,000 members.

Dr. H. K. Carroll reports for the year 1912,

Russian Orthodox. . . . 127 churches, 62,000 members.

The missionary work of the Russian Church among the Slavic immigrants in this country is most commendable. There is an Archbishop in New York assisted by a Bishop, and the Pravoslav or Eastern Orthodox of the Slavic Rite are ministered to by over 150 Russian, Albanian, Bulgarian, and Servian priests, besides 15 missions in Alaska.

There are about 150,000 Serbs in America at the highest estimate, and of these 10,000 are not in the United States. It is impossible to tell from the immigration reports from what countries the Serbs have come. Most, however, are probably from the Hungarian provinces. They have settled principally in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Indiana, and in Kansas, Montana, and California. A very interesting development came about in Alaska. Formerly there were a number of Russians in Alaska, and the Russian Church carried on a successful mission work among the Indians and Eskimos. After the annexation to the United States many of the Russians returned to Russia, and the see of the Russian Bishop in America was removed from Sitka to San Francisco. In 1905
the see was again removed to New York City, as the great bulk of the Russians in this country were now in the eastern states. In that very year Serbs from Montenegro and Servia were immigrating to Alaska, and there were now more Serbs in California and Montana than there were Russians in all the states west of Pennsylvania. Consequently the center of the Servian Church was placed in California with an archimandrite as special administrator, and the orthodox work in Alaska was transferred from the Russian Church to the Servian. The Servian Church in America is under the protection and supervision of the American Archbishop of the Russian Church...

The Bulgarians are very recent immigrants in America, coming since the year 1904. There are about 40,000 now here, coming from Macedonia, and centering principally in Illinois, although they have pushed westward. In Pennsylvania there is a small colony, and the Bishop of Harrisburg has interested himself in the building of their church in the town of Steelton. The men are vigorous workers, and have been working in construction gangs on the railroads and in steel mills. The Bulgarians are very interesting people, and they feel especially kindly toward the United States, from which they have received much national inspiration. It is within the province of the American Church to establish a firm fraternal relationship with their Church.* Dr. H. K. Carroll reports, for the year 1912, 3 Bulgarian organized churches with 20,000 members....

The Rumanians have been coming to this country since 1902. There are now 100,000...In the religious census of 1906 there were reported in this
country as using the Rumanian language: —

Rumanian Orthodox 1 church, 300 members.

Roman Catholic (Uniat). . .1 church, 1,700 members.

Dr. II. K. Carroll reports for the year 1912:—
Runuinian Orthodox. . . .5 churches, 20,000 members...

The contrast between the Greek "vision" and the Russian vision contrasts like nowhere else as when it comes to the Albanians:

Quote
The use of the Albanian language in the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy has been prohibited by the Patriarch of Constantinople, and those priests who presume to use it are excommunicated. Albanians declare that the Patriarch's object is to "Hellenize." An Orthodox League was formed a few years ago whose objects are to resist Greek aggression and force the Patriarch to allow at least a part of the Liturgy to he celebrated in Albanian.

What the outcome of this ecclesiastical tangle, or what the result of the Balkan war of 1912, will be upon the future of Albania is a grave and complex question.

About twenty-five years ago two Albanians came to America, and settled in Cambridge, Mass. Ten years ago a few more began to come. But it was not until five or six years ago that immigration proper of the race began.

There are to-day about 50,000 Albanians in America from Albania, and the United States immigration authorities have not yet learned to call them by name; they are not designated as Albanians in our immigration reports.

About 15,000 are in New England; and the rest in New York, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Minnesota, Nebraska, Utah, and the three Pacific States, and in Canada. The large majority are Eastern Orthodox Tosks. Only some 2,000 are Mohammedans, concentrated for the most part in three cities, St. Louis, Biddeford, Me. (800), and New Bedford, Mass. In Chicago, Indiana, and New York there are also some Roman Catholic Ghegs.

The Pan-Albanian federalion of America, called "The Hearth"" (Vatra), incorporated, has its headquarters in a neatly fitted office at 10 Ferdinand Street, Boston. The executive, the general secretary, Faik Bey Konitza, one of the apostles of Nationalism, is a graduate of a French University, an M.A. of Harvard, and an accomplished philologist and historical scholar.  He publlishes a paper in Albanian, ''The Sun' (Dielli). There are eighteen branches of the
Federation in America. Its objects are educational, to give lectures, teach Albanian and English, publish inexpensive literature, and above all to foster the national traditions. There are two Eastern Orthodox Albanian priests in America, with headquarters in Boston, the Rev. Fan 8. Nolli and the Rev. Naum Cere. Father Nolli is a graduate of Harvard. He has published in Boston, in the Albanian language and adopted latin alphabet, The Liturgy, etc., "The Book of the Epistles and CJospels," and a three-act drama, "Israel and the Philistines." These may be found in the Boston Library, and on their last pages the names of Albanian subscribers from all over the United States and southeast Europe. These two priests travel over our country ministering to their people in their native tongue. They were ordained under Russian auspices and are under the jurisdiction of the Russian Archbishop Platon in New York.

The Russian support of the Albanians in this country had repucussions in Albania:
Quote
After the Balkan War broke out P'aik Konitza and Father Nolli went to Europe and are taking a leading part in the reconstruction of Albania. The Albanian colonies in Biddeford, Maine, in New Hampshire, and elsewhere have sent earnest petitions to the European Powers appealing for the protection
of their fatherland.

Such was the result:
Quote
At that time the Greek community controlled the church that the Albanians attended, and as time passed tensions grew. Then, in 1907 these tensions came to a head when the Greek Orthodox priest refused to officiate at the burial of an Albanian nationalist. The priest did so with the position that as a nationalist the deceased had excommunicated himself. At this time, Fan recognized his calling and convoked meeting of Albanian Orthodox throughout New England. At the meeting the delegates resolved to establish a separate, autonomous, Albanian Orthodox Church. Fan Noli was selected to be its first clergyman.

In New York, Fan Noli met with Abp. Platon of New York and Fr. Alexander Hotovitzky who conducted an investigation of the Albanian community. After being satisfied, Abp. Platon agreed to ordain Fan Noli. Thus, on February 9, 1908, Abp. Platon ordained Fan as deacon, and followed this with his ordination as an Orthodox priest on March 18, 1908, at St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York. He was twenty-six years old. Then, on March 22, 1908, the young Fr. Noli celebrated the first liturgy in Albanian in the Knights of Honor Hall in Boston, using translations he had prepared. For the next several years he built his community. Then, for four months beginning in August 1911, Fr. Fan toured the Albanian communities throughout Europe, holding church services in Albanian in Kishinev, Odessa, Bucharest, and Sofia...

During the war Fr. Noli continued organizing the Albanian Orthodox community. On March 24, 1918, he was appointed administrator of the Albanian Orthodox community in the United States by Bp. Alexander (Nemolovsky). On November 17, 1918, he took monastic vows and was raised to the rank of archimandrite. During the year 1919, he was elected bishop of the Albanian Orthodox Church in America by the General Council of the Albanian Church. But due to the unsettled conditions in the Orthodox church at the time, he was not consecrated before he returned to Europe as the head of the Albanian delegation to the League of Nations in Geneva, seeking admission for Albania.

With the end of World War I, Fr. Noli continued deep involvement in fund-raising and campaigning for recognition of an independent Albania during the post-war conferences. On December 17, 1920, the League admitted Albania to membership, thus establishing worldwide recognition of Albania's independence. This admission to League membership, Archimandrite Noli considered his greatest accomplishment. Returning to Albania from Geneva in 1921, he represented the Vatra Federation in the Albanian parliament, and in 1922 he was appointed foreign minister in Xhafer bey Ypi's government, but resigned several months later.

On November 21, 1923, Archimandrite Noli was consecrated Bishop of Korca and Metropolitan of Durres. He was now the head of the Orthodox Church of Albania.

Now, the events of 1924 would bring Metr. Noli to his political summit. While the leader of the Orthodox Church in Albania, Metr. Noli was also the leader of a liberal political party opposing the conservative party of Ahmet Zogu who was supported by the feudal landlords and middle class. After an attempted assassination on Ahmet Zogu, the nationalist deputy Avni Rustemi was assassinated on April 22, 1924, allegedly by a group of Zogists. Metr. Noli gave a fiery oration at Rustemi's funeral that provoked such a reaction by the liberal opposition that Zugo was forced to flee to Yugoslavia.

Then, on July 17, 1924, Metr. Noli was proclaimed prime minister, followed shortly by being designated Regent of Albania. He presented a twenty-point program for modernization and democratization of Albania, but the country was unready for such brash and idealistic ideas. On December 24, 1924, Zogist forces overthrew Noli's government, and he left Albania for the last time. After drifting through Europe for the rest of the decade, Metr. Noli returned to the United States in 1930 on a six-month visa. With the expiration of his visa he was forced to return to Europe, but in 1932 he was granted permanent resident status and returned to the United States permanently. Upon arriving in the United States he withdrew from political life and returned to his duties as head of the Albanian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.

Metr. Noli's dream of an Albanian national church was fulfilled on April 12, 1937, when the Patriarch of Constantinople recognized the autocephaly of the Church of Albania...While Metr. Fan Noli is remembered mostly for his efforts toward founding the Albanian nation and for bring Orthodox Christianity to the Albanian nation in their own language, he also was a leader in establishing a literary Albanian language. He was a poet, dramatist, historian, musicologist, and a translator of note. For the Orthodox Christians it is his translations of the Orthodox rituals and liturgies into Albanian that will be long remembered. His early works were collected into two volumes, the Book of Holy Services of the Orthodox Church in 1909 and the Book of Great Ceremonies of the Orthodox Church in 1911. More church translations followed in later years, all in an elegant and solemn language that honored the Byzantine traditions that he so loved. He continued translating throughout his life, including translations into English after English began to enter his American parishes.
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Theophan_%28Noli%29_of_Durres

Btw, the 1912 report lists among "INDISPENSABLE BOOKS."

Quote
IV. Service Book of the Greco-Russian Church. Translated by
Isabel Hapgood. Price, $4.00; by mail $4.25.
The one complete standard translation of all the most important services,
arranged for actual use of the Russian Church and invaluable for American
readers.

As for the Greek "vision," at least of the time:
Quote
In the 14th century some thousands of Albanians descended into Greece, and others were moved there later by the Turks. At the present time there are some 200,000 descendants of these in Boeotia, Attica, and elsewhere, and on a number of the islands. They have become Greek in their aspirations and all are of the Greek Church; yet they have largely maintained their distinction of race and their language, — some at the present day in sight of Athens are unable to speak Greek. There are doubtless a number of these Greek Albanians among the immigrants in America, but they consider themselves Greeks, and are so considered by the Albanians from Albania.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 09:35:46 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2009, 10:53:09 PM »

^Another work the report references:
Quote
The United States Religious Census Report of 1906
gives statistical information regarding the use of Slavic lan-
guages in various churches in the United States, with a sum-
mary of the Eastern Orthodox Churches in this country at
that date.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2009, 12:51:50 AM »

I came across this:
Quote
FOR SYRIAN WORSHIPPERS; Orthodox Greek Church Dedicated and Consecrated for Them. SERMONS TO BE IN ARABIC DIALECT Nicolas, Bishop of Alaska, Officiated -- Be Good American Citizens" -- Many Beautiful Women Present.
Nov. 18, 1895

The first Orthodox Greek Church in this country for the exclusive use of Syrian worshippers in that faith was dedicated and consacrated at 77 Washington Street yesterday afternoon by Nicolas, Orthodox Greek Bishop of Alaska and the Aleutian Islands.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E05E7DA113AE533A2575BC1A9679D94649ED7CF

which contains many items of interest.

Quote
The new church, which was consecrated yesterday, is simply the second floor of an old-fashioned dwelling house.  Its walls have been freshly papered...and seats sufficient for te expected congregation have been placed on the floor.  The altar, which will be put into its place at the east end of the room during the week, is said to be a fine one, and is the gift of Bishop Nicolas.  According to the usage of the Orthodox Greek Church, an altar cannot be erected until after the church had been consecrated.

Between 200 and 300 persons were crowded into the room, which was about to become a church...The church building was formerly a private residence. In the large double parlors are a central and two side altars....

This is important, because there is some question on whether an apartment building Church could be fully consecrated and have a consecrated altar.  This is also important for the Fr. Bjerring chapel, the first build in NYC (1870-1883), Bjerring being sent from St. Petersburg.
http://orthodoxhistory.org/?p=215#comments

Evidently it could be consecrated.

Quote
The bishop began by chanting the prayers according to the ritual of the Orthodox Greek Church....chanted in Greek while the congregation gave the responses in either Greek or Russian, according to the language understood by each individual member of it...After the the prayers and psalms had been chanted, the Bishop dipped a branch of olive in the basin of holy water and liberally asperged the congregation, throwing the spray north, south, east, and west by turns in order to indicate that the four walls of the church had been set apart for Divine worship

Slavs and Arabs were not the only ones worshipping.

Quote
Hitherto the Syrians of this city who were members of the Orthodox Greek Church have been forced to worship in churches where the non-liturgical part of the service was conducted either in Greek or Russian...Bishop Nioclas officiated.  He was assisted by Father of Raphael of Damascus, who has come to America to take charge of the Syrian and Arabian Church, on Washington Street, this city: Father Theoclitus of the Greek Church, late tutor of the son of the King of Greece....Besides the Bishop, two others present wore the mitre-the Abbots Raphael and Theoclitus.  The latter is to take charge of the church of Galveston, Texas, where there is a large colony of Greeks.

On Fr. Theoclitus

http://www.orthodoxhouston.org/images/frtheoclitos.jpg
I find the following claims:
Quote
The Very Reverend Father Theoclitos was the first Orthodox priest in Texas. He was the pastor of Ss. Constantine and Helen Orthodox Church in Galveston. He served as the pastor for Serbs, Russians, Greeks, and others, conducting services in their own native languages.

Tsar Nicholas II (now glorified by the Church as a Martyr) decreed "Let there be an Orthodox Church in Galveston." He then personally donated the icons on the Iconostasis, the Gospel book, the sacred vessels, and also sent Fr. Theoclitus to serve the parish.

After the great hurricane of 1900 (which destroyed much of Galveston) the Church was reconsecrated by Bishop Tikhon (Later Patriarch of Moscow, glorified by the Church as a Confessor). Fr. Theoclitos is buried under the altar of Ss. Constantine and Helen's.
http://www.orthodoxhouston.org/clergyassociation.php

Quote
Father Kalneff Will Take Trip. July 14, 1905 p8.
Father and Mrs. Vladimir Kalneff, of the Reformed Greek church, expect to leave Monday morning for a trip through Colorado and parts of the west.  Father Kalneff will make a trip into Montana while Mrs. Kalneff visits friends in Denver.  Father Theoclitus, of Galveston, Tex., who is a Greek priest of the Reformed Greek church, will arrive in Bessemer today and will have charge of the local church during Father Kalneff's absence.  In a few weeks another priest, who is at the head of the Servian branch of the church, will arrive to hold a conference with the Bessemer Servian members.  During Father Kalneff's absence he will assist in organizing several churches and will incidentally raise funds for the erection of a new edifice in Bessemer.
Religious Talk Ends in Fight. October 7, 1905 p9.
M. Kilamber was arrested yesterday morning by Detective Noble on a charge of disturbing the peace.  Kilamber is charged with bouncing a beer glass on the forehead of one of his countrymen.  The fight which occurred in a Northern avenue saloon, was the result of an argument over religious matters.  It seems that Kilamber is a member of the Reformed Greek church, or as some call it, the Russian-Greek-Servian orthodox church.  Kilamber was soliciting some funds for the maintenance of the church and on entering one of the saloons, an argument was started among the men as to which of the three nationalities supported the church.  One of the crowd stated that the orthodox church did not amount to much.
He said it in such a way that it raised the wrath of Kilamber, and the latter let drive a beer glass which he held in his hand.  His victim went down and out for a while, but soon revived.  It was found that he had two bad cuts in his forehead.  He was taken to a physician and after the injuries had been dressed, he was able to proceed to his home.
Utah Priest Will Preach to Greeks. November 17 1905 p8.
Father Porftenions [sic] of Salt Lake, a priest of the orthodox church, arrived in the city yesterday afternoon and will conduct the services Sunday morning at the Bessemer church.  The orthodox or Reformed Greek church, as it is sometimes called is composed mostly of Austrians, Servians and Russians.  Father Kalneff, the local priest, is a native of Russia and is obliged to preach to the local congregation in three different languages.  Father Poftenions is a native of Greece and arrangements were made by the Greek portion of the local congregation to have him come to Bessemer to preach a sermon all in the Greek Language.
http://www.orthodoxpueblo.org/stmnewsletter.html

On the Church, SS Constantine and Helen:

Quote
Also in Galvston, Texas, some Greek sailors established a church, but being unable to support it, give it to the Russian bishop, and the Divine Liturgy was celebrated in both languages.  But in all of these places, as soon as the Greeks became numerous enough, they established their own purely Greek church community under the jurisdiction of Constantinople or Athens.
http://books.google.com/books?id=RVV2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA54&dq=Greeks+in+America+Burgess+spasmodic#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Greeks in America: an account of their coming, progress, customs, living ... By Thomas Burgess (1912) p. 54.

Quote
Our parish was formally organized January 13, 1895 by Serbs, Greeks, and Russians (though our parish roots go back to 1862).  Thus our parish was the first parish in the state of Texas, and is one of the oldest parishes in the United States.  The parish appealed to the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church in St. Petersburg, Russia, and Tsar Nicholas II (now glorified by the Church as a Martyr) decreed “Let there be an Orthodox Church in Galveston.”  He then personally donated the icons on the Iconostasis, the Gospel book, the sacred vessels, and also sent the parish’s first priest Archimandrite Theoclitos (Triantafilides).  Our Church was consecrated on June 3rd, 1896, on St. Constantine and Helen’s day.  After the great hurricane of 1900 (which destroyed much of Galveston) the Church was reconsecrated by Bishop Tikhon (Later Patriarch of Moscow, glorified by the Church as a Confessor).  Miraculously, the items donated by Tsar Nicholas all survived.  After that time the Church came under Serbian jurisdiction, due to the large proportion of Serbs in the parish.
http://www.orthodox.org/galveston/

Quote
The services...were the farewell mass of Bishop Nicolas, who leaves for San Francisco today....Bishop Nicholas....today he will leave for San Francisco and Alaska, and some time during Winter he will visit Brazil to establish churches there.

Bishop Nicolas is the only Bishop of the Orthodox Russian Church in America, and while he is styled the Bishop of Alaska, he really has jurisdiction throughout the United States.  He is a man of marked force of character and executive ability and it is confidently expected that he will be created an Archbishop, and he may reside in this city.

Of course, he did not but his successor St. Tikhon did.

I wonder if Bp. Nicolas made it to Brazil.  As I have said, it amazes me that those who say landing in Alaska doesn't give the ROC all of North America have no problem with deposed Met. Meletios landing in NYC and claiming South America.  St. Raphael did go to Mexico.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2009, 06:52:33 PM »

Before the 1908 Tomos deal between the EP and the CoG, this is what the Russian Mission was up to in the US in NYC:
Quote
THRONGS BESIEGE RUSSIAN CATHEDRAL; Bishop Tikhon Consecrates Altar Screen of St. Nicholas
October 24, 1904

The Russian Cathedral of St. Nicholas, in East Ninety-seventh Street, could not hold the throng of worshippers that went there yesterday to attend the consecration and blessing of the new ikonostasis, or altar screen, by Bishop Tikhon, Metropolitan of the Russian Orthodox Church in North America. The consecration was replete with all the picturesque and impressive features of the Eastern Church ceremonial.

Bishop Tikhon of North America was assisted by Bishop Rafael of Brooklyn and Bishop Innocent of Alaska, the two other Russian Bishops in this country
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9D00EFD61230E132A25757C2A9669D946597D6CF
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D00EFD61230E132A25757C2A9669D946597D6CF

Hmmmm.  Three.  Enough to consecrate another, and there were at the time such plans for the Greeks and Serbs among others.  Btw, at the time, the Pope and Patriach of Alexandria, Second in Orthoodxy, had only as many bishops, and the ancient and autocephalous Church of Cyprus didn't have as many, causing a long drawn out dispute over jurisdiction in the Greek controlled Churches (the monk Meletios first came to prominence in this dispute).
The Orthodox Eastern Church By Adrian Fortescue, pp. 286, 291
http://books.google.com/books?id=UPr1ZCxPW6QC&pg=PA286&dq=Fortescue+Lord+Photios&lr=#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=UPr1ZCxPW6QC&pg=PA291&dq=Kyrenia,+Paphos+and+Kition#v=onepage&q=Kyrenia%2C%20Paphos%20and%20Kition&f=false

Quote
...at the Cathedral of St. Nicholas yesterday every inch of standing room was occupied during the entire ceremony, which was of more than three hours' duration.  In the street another big crowd clamoring in vain for admittance was held back by a cordon of police.

The attendance of a great number of clergy from all parts of the country who participated in the consecration....

And just for Heorhij (pardon the archronistic term for Ukrainian):
Quote
....Father Chahovtzoff of Mansfield, Penn., made an address in Little Russian, the dialect best understood by the peasants from teh interior of the Russian Empire....

Quote
....While Bishop Tikhon was blessing the ikons on the altar screen and all the worshippers were kneeling in silent prayer, something occured which gave an almost mediaeval tinge to the ceremony.  Suddenly the sun, which had been hidden behind the high houses acorss the street, shone in through the large window opposite the altar, flooding the church with light and casting a quaint glamour over teh altar screen, until every detail of its ornamentation, profuse with gilding, as it is, shone as from some inherent light, and the faces of the officiating clergy appeared as glorified.  The effect was not lost on the multitude.  A murmurr ran through the throng, heads began to bend lower, and some time passed before the spell was broken.

Bishop Tikhon in his address said:

"Our gracious Emperor, the holy son of the Church, head and commander of the faithful, was the first to contribute to the work.  After his holy example others followed.  The rich gave great gifts out of their generousity, and the poor of the kopeks that were the fruit of the sweat of their brow.  Today, with the installation of the ikonostasis, our cathedral stands complete, the gleamiing symbol of our faith and the pride and beauty of our Church in the Western Hemisphere

But wait! Don't we have another Cathedral in New York, the Mother Church of Orthodoxy in America?
I came across this again, the GOA's official account of its origins (at least, the account it posts on its offiical web site):
Quote
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Establishment
Before the establishment of an Archdiocese in the Western Hemisphere there were numerous communities of Greek Orthodox Christians. The first Greek Orthodox community in the Americas was founded in New Orleans, LA by a small colony of Greek merchants. History also records that on June 26,1768 the first Greek colonists landed at St. Augustine, FL, the oldest city in America. The first permanent community was founded in New York City in 1892, today’s Archdiocesan Cathedral of the Holy Trinity and the See of the Archbishop of America. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America was incorporated in 1921 and officially recognized by the State of New York in 1922.
http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/about


The Greek community was established in 1892? Let's see the Greek "Mother Church of America" says:
Quote
The origin of the Greek Orthodox Church in the Americas is to be found in the believing souls of the Greek Orthodox immigrants. Religion and faith are forces that shape what is called the character of man. We may be justly proud of our history in this Nation and of our ongoing contribution to its religious ethos.

In the fall of 1891 there were about 500 male Greeks and perhaps 20 Greek women in New York. The establishment of the Athena Brotherhood intertwined Hellenism and Greek Orthodoxy; from these few sprung forth the first Greek association in this hemisphere, and the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox parish. It elected as its president Solon J. Vlastos, who three years later founded the first Greek American daily newspaper, The Atlantis.

In fits and starts the fledgling religious community began to grow. Chartered by a special act of the New York State Legislature in 1896, it occupied several locations in lower Manhattan. In 1904 a permanent church building, an Episcopal church of Gothic architecture at 153 East 72nd Street , was purchased. The first service was held on April 3, 1904. Later the same year, the dynamic Father Methodios Kourkoules assumed the pastorate and remained its benevolent and resolute spiritual leader until 1940...Archbishop Athenagoras, later Ecumenical Patriarch (1947–72) consecrated the Cathedral on October 22, 1933 and characterized it as "The Cathedral of all of Hellenism in America."
http://www.thecathedral.goarch.org/vsItemDisplay.dsp&objectID=E9AED050-369E-48B6-BC125D72FB79A659&method=display

I guess not.

"The first service was held on April 3, 1904," i.e. less than a year before the iconostasis was being consecrated by St. Tikhon.

But, in the saint's words of October 24, 1904, his "cathedral stands complete." He had consecrated it as a cathedral Church years before:
Quote
NEW RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH CONSECRATED; Bishop Tikhon of North America and Aleutian Islands Officiates.
The American Flag carried with the Russian Standard
November 24, 1902

With all the pomp of its rites, the magnificence of the vestments of its clergy, in the presence of the members of the Russian Embassy, and before a crowd of worshippers that occupied nearly every inch of standing room, the new Russian Orthodox Church of St. Nicholas was consecrated yesterday morning.  The edifice at 15 East Ninety-seventh Street was decorated at the entrance with the red, white and blue of the American flag and the white, blue and red of Russia.

Delegations of Russian societies marched intot the church carrying their national flag, the colors of their adopted country and a religious banner bearing pictures of the Saviour, the Virgin Mary, and Saints....A company of cossacks from Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show, in uniform, including their cartridge belts, added picturesqueness to the scene.

To the rear of the chancel, where a large part of the service was held and where the altar was consecrated...

EASTERN CLERGY PRESENT.

The clergy who participated in the service besides the Right Rev. Yishof Tikhon of North America and the Aleutian Islands, the celebrant, were:
The rector, Archpriest Alexander Hotovitsky.
The assistant rector, the Rev. Elias Zotihoff.
Archimandrite Anatoly, President of the Missionary College, Minneapolis.
Archimandrite Raphael, rector of the Syro-Arabian Church of Brooklyn.
Archpriest Alirio [sic] Toth, Wilkesbarre, Penn.
Archpriest John Vedezelnitzny, Allegheny Penn.
The Rev. B. Turkevich Bridgeport.
The Rev. Ptolomey Timchenkoff, Ansonia, Conn.
The Rev. John Kochuroff [sic].  Chicago
The Rev. Alexander Vemolovsky, Philadelphia.
The Rev. Elias Klopotozsky, Old Forge, Penn.
The Rev. W. Kaleneff, Buffalo.
The Rev. Kagnowdze, Cleveland. [or do you say "Cleaveland Tongue]
The Rev. Tikhon Rostovsky, Troy.
The Rev. Anthony Dovoschunk, Passaic, N. J.
The Rev. Joanavsky, Osceola Mills.
The Rev. Theodore Bukeloff.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D02E2DC1E30E132A25757C2A9679D946397D6CF
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D02E2DC1E30E132A25757C2A9679D946397D6CF

Quite a spread: a bishop with his 17 priests (including at least 5 saints) representing at least 15 parishes in at least seven different states. I we know that was not all: the cathedral in SF still stood with St. Fr. Sebastian Dabovich,
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22981.msg351854.html#msg351854
we know Fr. Vladimir Alexandrov was up at St. Spyridon in WA:
Quote
Not untypically, in 1902, Fr Vladimir Alexandrov received a letter from the Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim III thanking the Seattle priest for his "zealous missionary work among the Greek people" [7]. In Chicago that same year, Bishop Tikhon (Bellavin), head of the missionary diocese, even served liturgy in an "independent" Greek parish -- entirely in Greek.
http://www.oca.org/MVorthchristiansnamerica.asp?SID=1&Chap=CH2
Fr Michael Andreades:
Quote
Spiritually, however, the parish received the assignment of Fr. Dimitry Kamnev (1897-98) and Fr. Vladimir Alexandrov (1898-1905), missionaries who not only ministered to our congregation, but, using it as a base, tirelessly served Orthodox communities in Cle Elum, Wilkeson, Portland and in various parts of Canada, often serving the Liturgy for several thousand people at a time. It is a matter of record that the first Orthodox services in Canada were celebrated by Fr. Kamnev, then rector of St. Spiridon's.

Since a large proportion of the congregation spoke Greek as their native language, the Russian mission saw to it that most of the early rectors were proficient in that language as well as Russian and English. One of the resources open to the Russian Church was the number of priests who came from Greek-Russian families in the Crimea. Fr. Michael Andreades was one of those and ministered to St. Spiridon's from 1905 to 1916. Trilingual and comfortable in both Russian and Greek cultures, Fr. Michael was an ideal pastor for our community at the time.*

*From the website of St Spiridon http://www.saintspiridon.org/history.html

One must wonder at what rejoicing our Isa would be making had he been there.  Wink
If Fr. Andreas had successed in obtaining a Greek bishop, I would have thrown rose petals in his holiness' path as he walked off the ship

amongst others.

Quote
...Next to the Russian Ambassador was Mayor Seth Low, to whom Count Cassini explained the significance of the ritual.

The clergy performed the rite of blessing the water.  They then greeted Bishop Tikhon at the entrance of the church while the chorus sand the hymn, "From the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, the Lord's name be praised....Preceeded by the Bishop, all the clergy entered the santuary while prayers and psalms were sung.  The table to the altar was fastened in place, the resounding strokes of the hammer ringing out above the singing.  It was then sprinked with holy water, with rose water, and wine, anointed with holy chrism, and the first covering was put upon the table.  This was bound fast with a cord.  A second covering was arranged, upon which the antiminis, the tabernacle, the Book of the Gospels, and the cross, all brilliant with gold and jewels, were placed.

Led by the deaon, carrying a lighted taper, the Bishop censes the altar and the church, accompanied by the priests, one of whom sprinked the four walls with holy water....He then removed his miter of gold and jewels and placed upon his head the antiminis with the holy relics.  Preceded by the Stars and Stripes, the Standard of Russia, and the church banner, with the clergy, the Bishops went out into the street.

Returning to the main door, he exclaimed form the outside, "Lift up your heads, oh ye gates, and the King of Glory shall come in."

The choir sang, "Who is this King of Glory?"

"The Lord of Hosts, He is the King of Glory!"  exclaimed the Bishop.  Entering the church again, he laid the holy antiminis on the altar, and then read a prayer for the founders of the temple....

LONG LIFE TO THE PRESIDENT

After the benediction, long life was proclaimed to the Imperial House of Russia, the President of the United States, the Most Holy Synod, the Right Rev. Tikhon, the founders, parishioners, and all the people.  "Eternal Memory" was then proclaimed to the deceased benefactors of the Church.

The Bishop delievered an address in Russian and the rector preached in English.  The people were urged to loyalty to their adopted country, to their Church, and themselves in that they should lead righteous lives....The invited guests went into the rectory....Among those present were...the Canadian Consul, N. Struve....

It was the impression of some of those present, who have watched the affairs of the Russian Orthodox Church in America, that the new home here will lead to the removal of the cathedral of the See from San Francisco, as it was years ago taken from Sitka, Alaska.

They were, of course, right: the Russian Diocese, from "sea to shining sea," did move from the West Coast to the East Coast.  Both Cathedrals still serve the Orthodox.

And that wasn't the first Orthdodox Church in NYC:
Quote
THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH
August 6, 1899,

The little Russian Orthodox Church on Second Avenue stands quite unique among the city's host of churches....It is one of the few types in this country of the great Church of the East, that immutable body which for fifteen centuries has retained to the letter almost all of its customs and traditions.   St. Nicholas's Church as it is called has lost nothing of its Eastern character by being transplated in the heart of the New World.  With he exception of the building itself, which was built for nothing more than a private residence, the fixings are entirely Eastern....St. Nicholas's Church was established in 1893 and has about 300 communicants.  The Rector, the Rev. Alexander A. Hotovitzky is a secular (or white) priest...and has been in this country for four years, and for three years has had charge of St. Nicholas Church....His bishop is the Right Rev. Tikhon, whose recent visit to the Church of St. Nicholas was memorable event among the Russian Orthodox Christians in New York.

It is rarely that Bishop Tikhon is able to travel so far as this city.  His see comprises the Aleutian Islands and Alaska, and the United States is merely a jurisdiction.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C0CE6DB153CE433A25755C0A96E9C94689ED7CF
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9C0CE6DB153CE433A25755C0A96E9C94689ED7CF

[the article has a nice picture of the inside of the Church towards the altar, and of St. Tikhon]

So before the seeds of the "Cathedral of All of Hellenism" sprouted, the RM already had put down roots and blossemed into a church visited by its local bishop.

And of course, then there is the problem of that the "Cathedral of All of Hellenism didn't send Fr. Theoclitus to tend to the Greeks in the Deep South. The Russian bishop  Nicolas of Alaska and the Aleutians ("while he is styled the Bishop of Alaska, he really has jurisdiction throughout the United States")  did.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20839.msg352113/topicseen.html#msg352113

The "Cathedral of All of Hellenism did not accept the credentials of the Greek priest in SF".  The Russian bishop Tikhon of North America did.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22981.msg351854.html#msg351854
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tamara
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Diocese of America
Posts: 2,209


+Pray for Orthodox Unity+


« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2009, 07:00:48 PM »

Isa,

I think you should contact Fr. Oliver Herbel and share all of these original source articles with him. He and a few others have started a site on Orthodox History. See below.

http://orthodoxhistory.org/?author=3

sincerely, Tamara  Smiley
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #78 on: September 01, 2009, 03:11:31 PM »

So the Canadians don't feel left out (and so any mistakes can be pointed out):

The first services are said to be for the Syrians in Lennoxville, Quebec in the 1870's, by priests from America.
http://www.archdiocese.ca/exhibit/landandpeople.html

the same site says the Bp. Nikolai of the Russian Mission was the first bishop to visit Canada in the 1890's.  First bishop Alexander Nemolovsky (1916), later head of the RM.

Alberta: Russian (1897 1st parish had first church in 1901). Holy Trinity, Wostok. First in Canada
http://www.orthodoxcanada.net/eng/content/view/18/38/
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/ACF2AA.pdf

Manitoba: Russian (1897) St. Michael's, Gardenton.
http://www.cjoc.ca/pdf/Vol-3-F-1%20Orthodox%20Christians%20in%20Manitoba.pdf

Saskatchewan: Romanian (1902).  St. Nicholas', Regina (1st Romanian Orthodox in North America).
http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/romanian_settlements.html

In 1908 the Canadian government recognized the RM jurisdiction over the Orthodox of Canada, and gave jurisdction by ordinance to the RM the Northwest Territories:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9l4vAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=northwest+territories+first+orthodox+church&source=bl&ots=PNecwbNsxP&sig=faH2t_YmTDgfUj0H0s4qkKmIROQ&hl=en&ei=4GudSubXAY3iMNLJ9JAC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Ontario: Greek (1909).  St. George, Toronto.
http://www.stgeorgestoronto.org/

Quebec: Russian (1907).  SS Peter and Paul, Montreal.

As a curiosity: Bucovinian (!) (1911/1916). St. John of Suceava, Montreal.

(btw, it is claimed that the primate of the Bukovina Church, now in the Romanian patriarchate but at the time autocephalous, refused to send priests to the Canadians, most Orthodox coming from Bukovina, in deference to the Russian Bishop
http://books.google.com/books?id=71Wnflm9lYgC&pg=RA1-PA169&lpg=RA1-PA169&dq=first+orthodox+priest+serve+British+Columbia&source=bl&ots=aSay7gzW8s&sig=-zhhjMwrzxeEXJyUX57aC82zhL0&hl=en&ei=HVydSr2QBOrrnQeXibj_Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#v=onepage&q=first%20orthodox%20priest%20serve%20British%20Columbia&f=false

I know I've missed a few provinces and territories, but it's a start.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #79 on: September 02, 2009, 07:37:19 PM »

Just came across this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=yYMTAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Octoechos#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Quote
Octoechos: or The book of eight tones, a primer containing the Sunday Servie in Eight Tones By Orthodox Eastern Church, Nicolas Orloff

to

His Eminence
The Right Reverend Nicholas
Lord Bishop of Aleut and Alaska,
Whose fatherly solicitude for the spiritual welfare
of the youth of his uniquely extended diocese
has suggested the translation,
is
this second books,
in a bold, but heartfelt and prayerful trust of furthering,
under God, a good cause,
Most gratefully and humbly dedicated,
by Professor N. Orloss,
the Translator

which ends with a long dedication to the Most Holy Trinity, the Russian Imperial Family (named individually) etc...
Quote
...and with the blessing of the Right Reverend Nicholas, Lord Bishop of Alaska and the Aleutian Islands, this translation of the "Octoechos, or the Book of Eight Tones, a Primer containing the Sunday service in Eight Tones" from the first edition of the Most Holy Governing Synod of Russia of 1891 hath been printed in the capital city of London, at the Dryden Press office, in its first impression in the year of the world 7407, and in the year from the incarnation of God the Word 1898, in the month of May, the sixty-first year of the reign of Queen Victoria, whom may God perserve.

Another volume's title page reads:
Quote
THE GENERAL MENAION
OR
BOOK OF SERVICES
COMMON TO THE
FESTIVALS OF OUR LORD JESUS
OF THE HOLY VIRGIN
AND OF
DIFFERENT ORDERS OF SAINTS
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

TRANSLATED
FROM THE SLAVONIAN SIXTEENTH EDITION OF 1862
PRINTED IN MOSCOW AND PUBLISHED BY
THE MOST HOLY GOVERNING SYNOD OF RUSSIA

TO
THEIR EMINENCES
THE RIGHT REVEREND NICHOLAS
NOW LORD BISHOP OF TAURIDA SYMPHEROPOL,
late of Aleut and Alaska, and
THE RIGHT REVEREND TIKHON,
 

PRESENT LORD BISHOP OF ALEUT AND ALASKA,
WHOSE FATHERLY SOLICITUDE, FOR THE SPIRITUAL WELFARE OF
THE FLOCK OF THIS UNIQUELY EXTENDED DIOCESE, MOVED
THE FIRST TO SUGGEST THE TRANSLATION. AND THE
SECOND TO CALL HIS BLESSING UPON THE WORK,
IS
THIS BOOK
IN A BOLD, BUT HEARTFELT AND PRAYERFUL TRUST OF FURTHERING
UNDER GOD, A GOOD CAUSE,
Most gratefully and humbly Dedicated
BY
PROFESSOR N. ORLOFF.
THE TRANSLATOR.
The Feast of SS. Peter and Paul.
29th June/11th July 1899.
King's College
LONDON, W.C.

And ends:
Quote
....and with the blessing of the Right Reverend Tikhon, Lord Bishop of Alaska and of the Aleutan Islands, this translation of the General Menaion, or the Book of Services common to the Festivals of our Lord, of the Holy Virgin, and of the different Orders of Saints, from the 16th edition of the Most Holy Governing Synod of Russia of 1862, hath been printed in the capital city of London, at the Dryden Press office, in its first impression in the year of the world 7408, and in the year from the incarnation of God the Word 1899, in the month of June, the sixty-second year of the reign of Queen Victoria
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #80 on: September 02, 2009, 08:20:37 PM »

And then what Hapgood wrote in 1906 (i.e. before the Greek Tomos of 1908):
Quote
It has always been the policy of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic Church of the East, to have her services celebrated in the languages of the countries inhabited by her members.  In accordance with this policy it is desired, eventually, to make English the language, in this country, of the Russian Church, which was the first to bring Christianity to Alaska, and now has more parishes in all sections of the land than either of the other representatives of that Communion-the Greek and Syro-Arabian branches.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bHpbAAAAMAAJ&pg=PR3&dq=Orthodox+Hapgood+syro-Arabian&lr=#v=onepage&q=&f=false
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 08:29:19 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #81 on: September 02, 2009, 10:38:09 PM »

An official report of the US census bureau of the same year agrees with Miss Hopgood:  A primary source: Religious bodies, 1906 By United States. Bureau of the Census, William Chamberlin Hunt.
http://books.google.com/books?id=5zsTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA436&dq=Churches+Greek+Church+1897&lr=#v=onepage&q=Churches%20Greek%20Church%201897&f=false

After recounting the autocephalous Churches of the time (not identical to today's diptychs, btw) it states  "Of these churches, 4 are represented in the United States by regular church  organizations.  These are the Russian Orthodox, the Greek Orthodox, the Servian Orthodox and the Syrian Orthodox.  Only I of these has a definite and inclusive ecclesiastical organization, and that is the Russian Orthodox Church.  The Greek Orthodox churches are looking forward to such an organization, but it is not as yet completed.  The Servian and Syrian Orthodox churches are under the general supervision of the Russian Orthodox Church, although reported separatedly."

On the Greeks it notes "application has been made by the communities to the ecclesiastical authorities of their own sections, and priests have been sent to this country, sometimes by the Holy Synod of Greece and sometimes by the Patriarchate of Constantinople...As in the case of the early Russian churches [?], there had been no central organization, each priest holding his ecclesiastical relation with the synod or patriarchate which sent him to this country.  Arrangements are being perfected for a general organization of the Greek speaking communities representing both the Holy Synod of Greece and the Patriarchate of Constantinople...In doctrine the Greek churhces are in entire accord with other Eastern Orthodox Churches.  Their polity and worship, however while in principle the same, vary somewhat in form to meet the peculiar needs.  With a more complete organization these divergencies will either disappear or be defintely established...The entire organization of the Greek churches is practically on a home missionary basis." It also records that in 1890 the Greeks had 1 organization with 100 communicants.

For the Syrians it states "The churches of this body represent the immigration into the Unites States of communities from Syria connected with the Orthodox Patriarchs of Antioch or Jerusalem.  They all have priests of their own, but as a body they are under the general supervision of a coadjutor bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church.  In doctrine and polity they are in harmony with the Russian Orthodox Church...." 

As for the "Servians" [sic] they "are under the general supervision of the archbishop of the Russian Orthodox Church in the United States, but have a special administrator an archimandrite of that church.  In doctrine and polity they are in harmony with the Russian Orthodox Church..."

It has a lot of interesting data on the state of the Chruches at the time, finanaces, etc. It makes the comment that "...After the change of political rule, accompanying the sale of Alaska to the United States...as a result there was a loss of interest in the country on the part of the people of Russia, and an attendant loss of the means for carrying on the missionary work...Nevetheless, the Russian Church did not give up is work in the country, but continued to do whatever was within its means.  In 1872 the see was removed from Sitka to San Francisco, where there was alaready quite a number of Russians, Servians and Greeks...at present almost the only strictly missionary work is that carried on by the clergy of Alaska among the Indians and Eskimos, and each year sees about 200 converts brough into the Russian Church." This, every half a century after the sale of Alaska.

It also includes some info. on Canada.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #82 on: September 02, 2009, 11:37:58 PM »

The succeeding publication "Yearbook of American churches: 1915" By Federal Council of the Churches of Christ in America, National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America (1922)
http://www.archive.org/stream/peopleofeasterno00epis/peopleofeasterno00epis_djvu.txt
repeats the above information, but adds under Roumanians [sic]:
Quote
Until the comparatively recent poitical disturbances there was very little immigration to this country from that section of the Balkan Peninsula, but of late a number of communities have been gathered into churches under the general supervision of the Russian Orthodox Church, through its headquarters in New York City

Under Bishop Nathaniel, it seems they are staying that way.

It also modifies the remarks on the Greeks.  It gives the address of Met./Archb./EP Meletios' exarch, the defrocked Bp. Alexander, and notes:
Quote
The Patriarchate of Constantinople has resigned its ecclesiastical relations to the Greeks in America in favor of the Holy Synod of Greece, so that now all Greek (Hellenic) priests are under the ecclesiastical supervision of that synod, which has decided to send to America a Greek (Hellenic) bishop.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,178


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #83 on: September 03, 2009, 02:22:47 PM »

Is anybody listening to you, Isa?
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #84 on: September 03, 2009, 05:19:04 PM »

Is anybody listening to you, Isa?

I am.  As well as quite a few others I know!

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #85 on: September 03, 2009, 05:58:40 PM »

Is anybody listening to you, Isa?

My PMs and email say yes.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #86 on: September 03, 2009, 10:07:18 PM »

Is anybody listening to you, Isa?

I am.  As well as quite a few others I know!

Orthodoc

No doubt. But his real fan club would be delighted over at ECafe. I'm sure they'd lap his jihad right up to cheers (excepting that they'd still call all you heretics)  Wink
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2009, 11:42:48 PM »

Came across this:"The History of the Orthodox Church" By Rev. Constantine Callinikos.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/history_kallinikos_e.htm#_Toc1486812
The work is phyletist, (although The Journal of Hellenic studies, Volume 41 By Society for the Promotion of Hellenic Studies (London, England) calls it "unbiased. Roll Eyes)
http://books.google.com/books?id=-sQqAAAAMAAJ&q=The+History+of+the+Orthodox+Church%22+By+Rev.+Constantine+Callinicos&dq=The+History+of+the+Orthodox+Church%22+By+Rev.+Constantine+Callinicos

with amuzing accounts of the abolition, er, care the EP showed to the fellow patriarchates, whining a half century later over the Patriarchate of Antioch being turned over to its Faithful, etc.

Because of this, and its date (1918, but it seems to have been updated in parts. Its preface is dated 1931. IOW from around the Romanian events reported were happening), it is interesting that its present redaction includes the following account of the Romanians from "Faith of Our Fathers: The Eastern Orthodox Religion," by the Rev. Leonid Soroka and Stan W. Carlson. The Romanians had by and large come when the RM was losing its jurisdictional monopoly and falling apart.



Quote
Rumanian Church.

The first Romanian Orthodox Church to by established in the United States was St. Mary's in Cleveland, Ohio, which was organized on August 15, 1904. Earlier, in 1901, two Romanian Orthodox churches had been organized in Canada. The first Romanian priest to visit the United States was the Reverend George Hertea, but his stay in this country was only temporary. Father Moses Balea, who became the pastor of St. Mary's in Cleveland in November, 1905, was the first of the clergy to come to the United States to stay.

Until the time of World War I, all Romanian clergymen came from the Romanian homeland, but with the cutting off of immigration, a number of Americans of Romanian origin were ordained by Russian Orthodox Bishops in America. Several years after the termination of World War I, the Metropolitan of Sibiu in Transylvania sent eleven priests to America, five of them remaining in the United States permanently.

Beginning in 1911, several attempts were made to organize an American diocese of the Romanian Orthodox Church. On February 24, 1918, a group of delegates who met in Youngs-town, Ohio, voted to establish a United States Episcopate. This Episcopate was incorporated and its establishment was confirmed at a subsequent meeting held in Cleveland in April, 1923. The organization, however, did not become active.

The need for a unified Romanian church organization in America became more apparent in 1924 when it was found that three sources of ecclesiastical authority were recognized by Romanian Orthodox clergymen. Those ordained in Romania considered themselves under the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan of Transylvania, those ordained in America recognized the Russian-American Bishop Adam, and those of the clergy in Canada considered themselves under the authority of the Metropolitan of Moldavia.

A Romanian Orthodox Episcopate was organized at a church congress held in Detroit, Michigan, in April, 1929. This new Romanian Orthodox Diocese in America was headed by a provisional commission composed of four priests and eight laymen with the Very Reverend John Trutza of Cleveland as President. Repeated requests were made for a bishop to be sent to the United States.

On March 24, 1935, the Right Reverend Policarp Morusca was consecrated bishop for the American Diocese. He was installed on July 4, 1935, in St. George's Cathedral in Detroit.

Under Bishop Policarp the Romanian Orthodox Church in America grew to more than forty parishes.

Bishop Policarp returned to Romania in August, 1939, to attend a meeting of the Holy Synod. The outbreak of World War II shortly after prevented his return to America and the political changes which followed World War II complicated matters further and he remained in Europe. Bishop Policarp is still the canonical head of the American Episcopate.

The American Romanian churches decided recently to return to their original autonomous status. On July 2, 1951, the Right Reverend Valerian D. Trifa was elected as Bishop Coadjutor at a Church Congress held in Chicago, Illinois, and the name of the American Diocese was officially changed to the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate (Diocese) of America.

The Romanian Orthodox Church in America is divided into five deaneries or districts: Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, and Canada. The Cathedral of St. George is located in Detroit.

http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/history_kallinikos_e.htm#_Toc1486812

(one thing to recall, is that during the time of the RM, Romania was divided between at least 4 jurisdictions: Buchrest; Serbia; Sibiu (or Hermanstadt, split off from the Austro-Hasburgs from their Serbia jurisdiction at the time of the unity and autonomy>indepedece of Romania, united to the Patriarchate when Transylvania was reunited to the rest of the kingdom) and Bukovina (split between Romanians, Ukrainians and Carpatho-Russians.  Most the early Canadian Orthodox came from here).

It is interesing that even though the RM fell apart, the Romanians still got together under a bishop who is the predecessor of +Nathaniel of the OCA, and their episcopate became the OCA Romanian Orthodox Episcopate in America, which as we have seen:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18957.0.html
is where they will stay.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #88 on: September 06, 2009, 03:22:10 AM »

From a saint who was there, the history of the first parish in the lower 48 and its growth into the first Cathedral, by Fr. Sebastian Dabovich.
Quote
Orthodox Church in California from 1806 until 1840
 

By Fr. Sebastian Dabovich
 

 

The sounds of Orthodox worship were heard for the first time in California at Fort Ross, where there resided a fortified Russian settlement for the purpose of trade with California Spaniards and the protection of the Russian-American Trade Company of Alaskaπs sea hunting. In the small bay of Bodega, fifty miles north of San Francisco, a Russian schooner took shelter with Aleut leather kayaks. Not far from the bay on a prominence stood Fort Ross, in which could be seen a modest chapel. There Russians, together with Aleut and California Indian converts to Orthodoxy sang and prayed according to the Slavonic Psalter and Book of Hours. The first Indian converts were apparently baptized by lay people, as once were the Aleuts on Kodiak island. But later [converts] were unquestionably baptized by priests who came here from Sitka to conduct divine services and rites. Among those priest-missionaries was the famous Fr. Ioann Veniaminov, who visited here from Sitka. In 1884 the writer of this notebook observed children of Russian and California Indian mixed marriages in the settlement of Novoarchangelsk (or Sit-kha in the Tlingit dialect) on Baranoff Island.

Thus Russia, or more precisely the Russian-American Company, first owned property in California back in 1808. Fort Ross was built and consecrated in 1812. The first Orthodox community in California comprised the major part of the population of these holdings. On feast days the entire population gathered for common prayer in the chapel, the ruins of which can still be seen today. The river, which flows through this region among the straight tall redwood trunks, has preserved the name ≥Russian,≤ as has one of the hills in the city of San Francisco itself. In 1840 all this part of Upper California was transferred to the Americans. And so when the American Captain Sutter raised the American flag over the former Russian fort in Sonoma County, the sound of those singing the Orthodox ≥Lord, have mercy≤ was no longer heard in the chapel. The site became desolate, and it seemed that the Orthodox Christian faith had left this land forever.

 

The Era of the Establishment of the Orthodox Community in the City of San Francisco and Visits of the Russian Fleet

 

After such a finale to the Russian Colony in California, it was hard to imagine that some day Orthodoxy would once more shine here. Divine Providence, however, was pleased to act in a totally different way.

The discovery of gold here attracted masses of people, not only from the distant states of America, but even from the far off countries of Europe. Among those seeking happiness in the New World were also Orthodox Serbs and Greeks. They started coming here at the beginning of the 1850s. In 1857 Orthodox Serbs could be found as well in San Francisco. And in the 1850s the first Russian Government Agent, Kostromitinov also lived here.

In 1859 for the first time since the transfer of Fort Ross, a Russian Navy ship appeared in San Francisco Bay. On this ship arrived the Hieromonk Kirill, who was enlisted in the Second Amur Squadron. He came on shore and the same year baptized several Russian and Serb children in Mr. Kostromitinovπs apartment on Rincon Hill in San Francisco. This was, it seems, the first divine service for the community in California since the closure of the chapel at Fort Ross. Then in January of 1862 another Russian Navy ship, the Kalevala, arrived offshore at San Francisco. On it was a Hieromonk from the Konev Nativity Monastery, Father Vitaly. He also performed the sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation in San Francisco. In 1863, at the time of the American Civil War, six Russian Navy ships, under the command of Rear Admiral Popov, were stationed in San Francisco Bay for an entire year. Among these ships there were the corvettes Bogatyr, Riga, and Kalevala. (They came to protect the interests of the Federal Government.) On the flagship Bogatyr, there was a Hieromonk from the Tikhvin 1st class Monastery, Father Kirill. In 1863 he baptized several children in San Francisco, including the writer of this notebook.

According to the testimony of the local press, the Confederate ship Alabama did not risk coming to San Francisco once the presence of the Russian fleet became known.

On Pascha night in 1864, at the invitation of the Admiral, Divine Liturgy on board the ship was attended, along with Mr. Kostromitinov, by the Serbs Nicholas Dabovich, Peter Radovich and Andrew Chelovich. It is not known whose idea it was to establish the Orthodox Society in San Francisco, but it may be surmised that the initiative was taken by Admiral Popov, because he was present at the first meeting of the society in one of the halls of the city. Before the opening of the meeting, a Molieben with the blessing of water was served. Father Kirill, a middle aged man with a pleasant appearance, conducted the service. He was wearing a Cross awarded by the Synod, an indication of his many merits.

Toward the end of 1864 the newly established Orthodox society in San Francisco had $424.38 in a S.F. Savings Union Bank savings account. The following were the first members of this society: Nicholas Dabovich, Peter Radovich, George Lazarevich, Nicholas Gregovich, Bogdan Matkovich, Andrew Chelovich, Peter Bokanovich, Peter Zenovich, John Constantine, Michael Cheriasis, Luka Balich, Elias Vuovich, Gabriel Kustudio, Constantine Milinovich, and John Hertso (a Roman Catholic Slav). Each of these members made a contribution of $20.00 in gold.

Eventually the Russian ships weighed their anchors. And there were no more priests here. It would seem that, left without a church or a priest, this Orthodox community should have disappeared from the face of the earth, especially in the rush for gold, for wealthä Through the mercy of God, however, this did not happen. The Orthodox — Serbs, Greeks, and Russians — lived at that time in concord, and supported each other in a brotherly manner. On all major feasts, they gathered together with those who had families, and sang religious and folk songs. In those days the wax candle did not burn down and the bread loaf did not run out in families where they celebrated Krestno Ime (the Serbian custom of celebrating a familyπs Nameday. Every Serbian family and generation commemorates the acceptance of a Christian name instead of a pagan one.)

The modest Society had already established correspondence with the ≥old country≤ and contemplated the acquisition of a ≥pope≤ [priest in Serbian]. Such was the situation until 1867 when, finally and at no oneπs invitation, there appeared a certain Honcharenko, who pretended to be an Orthodox priest. (Detailed information about him, based on the correspondence of Metropolitan Philaret [Drozdov, now Saint Philaret of Moscow] and the Ober Procurator, may be found in Moskovskie Vedomosti.) At that time the Russian Consul in San Francisco was Martin Klinkovstrem, a Russian Finn, a pious man and a strict observer of his duties. He, together with the majority of the Orthodox population of San Francisco, suspected Honcharenko of fraud. They began to make inquiries, and indeed it was discovered that Honcharenko was an imposter. This Agapius Honcharenko was a tonsured monk from the Kiev Caves Lavra. Elevated to the rank of a hierodeacon [monk-deacon], he was assigned to the [Russian] embassy chapel in Athens. Eventually he was fired from that job for political crimes; but he did not return to Russia as he had been ordered. He lived subsequently in London and finally appeared in San Francisco, married no less. Here he managed to baptize the son of a Serb Lazarevich before his imposture was discovered. Honcharenkoπs brother now lives on Mount Athos. The former monk in charge of the Alexander Nevsky Lavra refectory, Father Martirius, served with him in Athens. Hegoumen George [Chudnovsky], who later served in the Alaskan Diocese, knew Honcharenko from Kiev.

The arrival of Honcharenko in San Francisco induced the local Society to consider more seriously their spiritual state. Under the leadership of Consul Klinkovstrem the Society finally became completely organized. Its Bylaws were drawn up in a true churchly spirit, and then in December of 1867 the legal existence of the society was ratified at City Hall. Among the new members were the following: John Franetta, Carl Baum, Archimandritov, Elias Chelovich, Sabbas Martinovich, A. Chausov, George Fisher, Lasar Jovovich, and Luke Jankovich. The Russian plenipotentiary in the transferal of Alaska to the Federal Government, Alexis Peschurov, signed up as a member of the Society and paid his dues for several months in advance.

At that time money was cheap in California. The country was not yet overpopulated. Monopolies were not fully established. Compensation for labor was generous. There were no cheap Italian, or especially Chinese, laborers. The Society members, with few exceptions, were generous in their support of the common cause. The Director of the Russian colonies in America, Prince Maksutov, when he passed through San Francisco on his way to Russia, consoled the brethren with a promise of petitioning the Russian bishop in Sitka to send them a parish priest. At the same time he donated two hundred dollars to the Society.

And indeed, in the following year of 1868 the Priest Nicholas Kovrigin and the Reader Basil Shishkin arrived in San Francisco from Sitka. Liturgy was celebrated in the house of the Serb Peter Sekulovich at 3241 Mission Street, near 28th Street. At that time this was considered to be outside of town. I remember that first service, to which I went with my mother. We had to walk a long way along unpaved streets. Furthermore we were mercilessly drenched by rain. At last we reached a small house; we crossed over a ditch (or temporarily excavated gutter) on a plank and entered the church. The ≥church≤ was set up in a divided room. At the end opposite the entrance the Holy Antimension lay on a covered table. A little table in a corner served as the table of oblation. I remember two icons on the walls: the Savior and the Mother of God. There were approximately twenty communicants at that Liturgy. When it was time to approach the Cup of Salvation, my older brother followed my father and I wanted to follow my mother. But I was held back and told that ≥no little ones are allowed there.≤ This circumstance requires an explanation. Western Serbs, e.g. Dalmatian and others, do not allow their small children to receive communion of the Holy Gifts. The clergy in some places to this day have been unable to restore the Orthodox custom of communion of children.

That same summer, the Priest N. Kovrigin returned to Sitka, but at the beginning of the following year, 1869, he came back to us with his whole family - to remain here as a permanent priest. The parishioners installed him in a spacious house with excellent new furniture at 516 Greenwich Street. In this houseπs parlor there was a temporary church without an iconostasis. I remember this house chapel for it was here that I made my first confession and communion. At divine services Consul Klinkovstremπs three adult daughters sang harmoniously. They, like their mother, were Orthodox. Joachim Chuda, a Serb, served as a reader and altar server; parishioners paid him $50 a month. Besides providing the monthly rent for the priestπs apartment and the space for the church, the parishioners also maintained the priest by their own means. The Orthodox community in San Francisco lived thus until the summer of 1871. In that year the first Bishop of the Aleutian-Alaskan Diocese relocated here with his staff from Sitka. And so San Francisco became the cathedral city of the Diocese of the Aleutian Islands and Alaska...

...Hieromonk Sebastian

San Francisco

12 February, 1897

 

 

Amerikanskii Pravoslavnii Vestnik, Nos. 15 (1-13 April 1898, pp. 455-460), 16 (15-27 April, 1898), pp. 479-482

Translated from Russian by Robert A. Parent
http://www.holy-trinity.org/history/1898/04.01-27_RAPV-SF-History.htm

Quote
Born to Serbian immigrants in San Francisco in 1863, Archimandrite Sebastian Dabovich has the distinction of being the first person born in the United States of America to be ordained as an Orthodox priest, [1] and also the first native-born American to be tonsured as an Orthodox monk.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/archimandrite-sebastian-dabovich.aspx

For some of his sermons:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3t5pYW5BNdoC&dq=Sebastian+Dabovich&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=tzNmDkQF0f&sig=W-sI4MMnVdOx917RjvA0qRIBOWM&hl=en&ei=cGCjSsHQBoOEtgfc4I0C&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2009, 01:30:56 PM »

Just an interesting bit from the Russian Mission in 1897:
Quote
The multiethnicity of our parish was the reason for last year's visit to San Francisco of the rector of the Syrian-Arab mission in New York, Archimandrite Raphael [Hawaweeny], who satisfied the spiritual needs of the Arabs here. This year we were visited by the rector of Galveston mission, Archimandrite Theoclytos [triantofilides; Cathedral rector in 1898-90]. In San Francisco, on the fourth Sunday of Great Lent, Archim. Theoclytos, assisted by Priest D. Kamnev and Hieromonk Sebastian, served Divine Liturgy in Greek; then he traveled to Seattle and Wilkinson in order to perform divine services and private rites there. On March 25, Greek Independence Day, Archimandrite Theoclytos served Liturgy in San Francisco together with His Grace; on this day the church was filled almost exclusively with Greeks
http://www.holy-trinity.org/history/1897/05.01.RussAmOrth.Mess.html

Btw, the same mentions:
Quote
During Gr. Lent, as the readers know, His Grace visited Fort Ross...
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 01:33:08 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags: jurisdiction unity 
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.252 seconds with 72 queries.