OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 16, 2014, 06:12:19 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags CHAT Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Protos and Universal Primacy  (Read 9495 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« on: March 14, 2009, 05:34:02 AM »

May the Lord bless!

The crux of the matter is that Constantinople, ably assisted by Cardinal Casper, has been pushing for the acceptance of what the 2005 Belgrade and 2007 Ravenna documents call a universal "Protos" and a "universal primacy."  "Protos" in this sense is a neologism and maybe they thought that people would warm to the concept if they used a Greek word. :-)  To see this theory of a "Protos" expanded on, read the Ravenna Document.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html

Some of us, including Moscow, see this as an innovation and one which distorts Orthodox ecclesiology. It is also seen as a way of softening up the Orthodox for eventually bringing us into obedience to the Roman Pontiff. After all, if we have our own "Protos" in Constantinople it's not much more of a step to accept another and more superior one in Rome.

So the matter does not centre on a dog fight between Constantinople and Moscow for the "Proto-ship."  It's a struggle between two ecclesiologies.  It's a struggle to keep the concept of a "universal primacy" out of the Orthodox Church. Thanks to Orthodoxy's innate conservatism, and given that the concept of a universal "Protos" is not found in the Canons or the Fathers, I think Constantinople will not be successful in introducing a "universal primacy."
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2009, 05:59:41 AM »

Some of us, including Moscow, see this as an innovation and one which distorts Orthodox ecclesiology.

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21). In the Holy Trinity, each Hypostasis is co-equal, yet the Father is the First as the Begettor of the Son and the Source of the Spirit.
Therefore, to deny that there is a "Protos" (First Among Equals), or that the existence of a First means that there cannot be equality is not only against our ecclesiology, it is a denial of Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, and therefore heresy.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2009, 06:07:28 AM »

Some of us, including Moscow, see this as an innovation and one which distorts Orthodox ecclesiology.

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21). In the Holy Trinity, each Hypostasis is co-equal, yet the Father is the First as the Begettor of the Son and the Source of the Spirit.
Therefore, to deny that there is a "Protos" (First Among Equals), or that the existence of a First means that there cannot be equality is not only against our ecclesiology, it is a denial of Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, and therefore heresy.

And if there is no prima inter pares, one would logically have to ask what the Primate of a Synod is.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2009, 06:08:34 AM »



This thread is NOT about the "First Lady among Equals"   laugh

Apart from the confusion about the gender of the Ecumenical Patriarch the matter concerns not the concept of "primus inter pares" but of "universal primacy" which Ravenna has repackaged into the concept of a "Protos."   

"Primus inter pares" in something the Orthodox can live with.  The concept of "universal primacy" assigned to a "Protos" is lethal to Orthodox ecclesiology.

This matter will have some serious discussions in the upcoming Great Synod.  Moscow is already preparing a major statement to refute it and highlight the errors in the Ravenna Document.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2009, 06:18:44 AM »

[
And if there is no prima inter pares, one would logically have to ask what the Primate of a Synod is.

George,  America has a First Lady -a Prima- but we don't have such women in our holy Church.   Grin

If you read the 2007 Ravenna Document, Metropolitan John Zizioulas and Cardinal Kasper want to introduce into Orthodoxy the concept of a "Protos" who exercises universal primacy.

While we have local primacy (the bishop) and regional primacy (synodal) in the Orthodox Church we do not have universal primacy.  This is an anti-patristic concept which some now wish to sell to the Orthodox.  No thanks.

Since Constantinople has laid so much stress on universal primacy at both Ravenna and Belgrade it is inevitable that the topic must have a high profile at the forthcoming Great Synod.   One assumes that Constantinople sees itself as holding the universal primacy and the "Protos" is the Ecumenical Patriarch.  Whether the Great Council will agree with this will be interesting.   Maybe it would choose to assign universal primacy to Moscow?  Either way it would be a perversion of our Orthodox ecclesiology.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 06:39:05 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2009, 06:44:26 AM »

Some of us, including Moscow, see this as an innovation and one which distorts Orthodox ecclesiology.

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21). In the Holy Trinity, each Hypostasis is co-equal, yet the Father is the First as the Begettor of the Son and the Source of the Spirit.
Therefore, to deny that there is a "Protos" (First Among Equals), or that the existence of a First means that there cannot be equality is not only against our ecclesiology, it is a denial of Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, and therefore heresy.

There is no such thing as a first among equals.  It is a nonsensical term. If someone is first, the others are not equal; if all are equal, then none is first.
 
But the phrase is used as code to convey an ecclesiological concept.  Unfortunately we are not agreed on the concept.  :-)
 
Fr Ambrose
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2009, 06:47:43 AM »

And if there is no prima inter pares, one would logically have to ask what the Primate of a Synod is.
"Ecclessia" is feminine, and we refer to our Patriarchal Sees with the feminine pronoun and you are talking about the Patriarchates, so I thought I'd be consistent.

Some of us, including Moscow, see this as an innovation and one which distorts Orthodox ecclesiology.

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21). In the Holy Trinity, each Hypostasis is co-equal, yet the Father is the First as the Begettor of the Son and the Source of the Spirit.
Therefore, to deny that there is a "Protos" (First Among Equals), or that the existence of a First means that there cannot be equality is not only against our ecclesiology, it is a denial of Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, and therefore heresy.

There is no such thing as a first among equals.  It is a nonsensical term. If someone is first, the others are not equal; if all are equal, then none is first.
Well then, you and I have a different understanding of the Holy Trinity.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 06:52:42 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,096


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2009, 06:51:50 AM »

There is no such thing as a first among equals.  It is a nonsensical term. If someone is first, the others are not equal; if all are equal, then none is first.
 
But the phrase is used as code to convey an ecclesiological concept.  Unfortunately we are not agreed on the concept.  :-)

Perhaps an analogy of "first among equals" can be found in the role of the Speaker of the House in parliamentary democracies such as those found in Canada, Australia and Great Britain. The Speaker's role, among other things, is to maintain order in the House (in practice, not always successfully, from what I've gathered  Wink), and to apply his casting vote when both sides of the House are deadlocked. Other than that, he has no greater power than any other parliamentarian, and this includes the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2009, 06:56:21 AM »

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21). In the Holy Trinity, each Hypostasis is co-equal, yet the Father is the First as the Begettor of the Son and the Source of the Spirit.
Therefore, to deny that there is a "Protos" (First Among Equals), or that the existence of a First means that there cannot be equality is not only against our ecclesiology, it is a denial of Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, and therefore heresy.

'Tis not the Trinity we are discussing here but the ecclesiology the Church.  I cannot serously  believe that you are proposing that the Ecumenical Patriarch holds within the Church the position of the Father in the Trinity.  That is an even more interesting concept than the Pope as the Vicar of Christ !!!

---
George, please fix the title.  I have to smile each time I see it.   laugh Smiley Grin
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2009, 07:02:50 AM »

'Tis not the Trinity we are discussing here but the ecclesiology the Church. 
You must have missed my first post in this thread:
Some of us, including Moscow, see this as an innovation and one which distorts Orthodox ecclesiology.

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21). In the Holy Trinity, each Hypostasis is co-equal, yet the Father is the First as the Begettor of the Son and the Source of the Spirit.
Therefore, to deny that there is a "Protos" (First Among Equals), or that the existence of a First means that there cannot be equality is not only against our ecclesiology, it is a denial of Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, and therefore heresy.

Clearly you and I disagree about the Holy Trinity because you say that there "cannot be a first among equals" yet that is precisely what the Father is according to Orthodox theology AFAIK. Since you hold that this is nonsense for the Church which is the Icon of the Trinity according to Our Lord Jesus Christ, then it must also be "nonsense" for the prototype of that Icon. I disagree, and clearly we will never agree on this, but I just thought I'd bring up the issue of how the denial of a first among equals is in opposition to Orthodox Theology and Ecclessiology.
 Smiley
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 07:05:10 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 07:08:30 AM »

"Ecclessia" is feminine, and we refer to our Patriarchal Sees with the feminine pronoun and you are talking about the Patriarchates, so I thought I'd be consistent.

In that case would you mind dreadfully if I commence another thread with the title "Protos and Universal Primacy."

The thing is that ths Ravenna Document and the ecclesiology being voiced by Metropolitan Ioannis Zizioulas and Cardinal Kasper (and opposed by the Church of Russia) does not concern a "Prima Ecclesia."  It concerns the universal primacy as embodied in one man, the "Protos" (in Greek.)

I honestly don't know how to discuss this in terms of a "Prima Ecclesia" since that does not relate to the suppositions being promoted in the Document from Ravenna.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2009, 07:10:58 AM »

In that case would you mind dreadfully if I commence another thread with the title "Protos and Universal Primacy."
No need. I change the title of this thread to that title just for you.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2009, 07:11:54 AM »

'Tis not the Trinity we are discussing here but the ecclesiology the Church. 
You must have missed my first post in this thread:
Some of us, including Moscow, see this as an innovation and one which distorts Orthodox ecclesiology.

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21). In the Holy Trinity, each Hypostasis is co-equal, yet the Father is the First as the Begettor of the Son and the Source of the Spirit.
Therefore, to deny that there is a "Protos" (First Among Equals), or that the existence of a First means that there cannot be equality is not only against our ecclesiology, it is a denial of Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, and therefore heresy.

Clearly you and I disagree about the Holy Trinity because you say that there "cannot be a first among equals" yet that is precisely what the Father is according to Orthodox theology AFAIK. Since you hold that this is nonsense for the Church which is the Icon of the Trinity according to Our Lord Jesus Christ, then it must also be "nonsense" for the prototype of that Icon. I disagree, and clearly we will never agree on this, but I just thought I'd bring up the issue of how the denial of a first among equals is in opposition to Orthodox Theology and Ecclessiology.
 Smiley

May I enquire which Church holds the position of the Father in the Orthodox world?

Which Church held the fathership in the apostolic age? For the first 300 years?   Was it Jerusalem?   How is the ecclesial paternity transferred from one Church to another?   Could it be assigned to Moscow next?
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2009, 07:14:38 AM »

In that case would you mind dreadfully if I commence another thread with the title "Protos and Universal Primacy."
No need. I change the title of this thread to that title just for you.

Efharisto poli!
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2009, 07:15:17 AM »

May I enquire which Church holds the position of the Father in the Orthodox world?
May I enquire whether you believe that the Father is the First Among Equals in the Holy Trinity?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2009, 07:25:38 AM »

May I enquire which Church holds the position of the Father in the Orthodox world?
May I enquire whether you believe that the Father is the First Among Equals in the Holy Trinity?


The Father is the source and the origin of the Godhead, generating the Son and spirating the Spirit.

I have never thought of Him in terms of a "primus inter pares" and would be keen to see what the Fathers say about this, if you would please provide quotes.


The relationship between the Father and the Son and the Spirit is essentially given to us in the Symbol of Faith:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible:
 
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:
 
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from the heavens, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man;
 
And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
 
And rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures;
 
And ascended into the heavens, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;
 
And shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
 
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets;
 
In One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
 
I Confess one Baptism for the remission of sins.
 
I look for the Resurrection of the dead,
 
And the life of the age to come, Amen.


« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 07:27:14 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,604



« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2009, 09:31:14 AM »

May the Lord bless!

The crux of the matter is that Constantinople, ably assisted by Cardinal Casper, has been pushing for the acceptance of what the 2005 Belgrade and 2007 Ravenna documents call a universal "Protos" and a "universal primacy."  "Protos" in this sense is a neologism and maybe they thought that people would warm to the concept if they used a Greek word. :-)  To see this theory of a "Protos" expanded on, read the Ravenna Document.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html

Some of us, including Moscow, see this as an innovation and one which distorts Orthodox ecclesiology. It is also seen as a way of softening up the Orthodox for eventually bringing us into obedience to the Roman Pontiff. After all, if we have our own "Protos" in Constantinople it's not much more of a step to accept another and more superior one in Rome.

So the matter does not centre on a dog fight between Constantinople and Moscow for the "Proto-ship."  It's a struggle between two ecclesiologies.  It's a struggle to keep the concept of a "universal primacy" out of the Orthodox Church. Thanks to Orthodoxy's innate conservatism, and given that the concept of a universal "Protos" is not found in the Canons or the Fathers, I think Constantinople will not be successful in introducing a "universal primacy."


Does anyone have the Greek of Apostolic Canon XXXIV handy?
Quote
Canon XXXIV.  (XXXV.)

The bishops of every nation must acknowledge him who is first among them and account him as their head, and do nothing of consequence without his consent; but each may do those things only which concern his own parish, and the country places which belong to it.  But neither let him (who is the first) do anything without the consent of all; for so there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified through the Lord in the Holy Spirit.

Some of us, including Moscow, see this as an innovation and one which distorts Orthodox ecclesiology.

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21). In the Holy Trinity, each Hypostasis is co-equal, yet the Father is the First as the Begettor of the Son and the Source of the Spirit.
Therefore, to deny that there is a "Protos" (First Among Equals), or that the existence of a First means that there cannot be equality is not only against our ecclesiology, it is a denial of Orthodox Trinitarian Theology, and therefore heresy.

I've never seen the Father refered to as First among Equals: just as the Arche.  Do you have any references?



This thread is NOT about the "First Lady among Equals"   laugh

No, but there are a lot of prima donnas in the issue.

Quote
Apart from the confusion about the gender of the Ecumenical Patriarch the matter concerns not the concept of "primus inter pares" but of "universal primacy" which Ravenna has repackaged into the concept of a "Protos."   


Ryondish had an excellent post on the Vatican take of this, but I think it was on CAF.  The issue for us is the Vatican teaches that the protos of Rome is the model upon which all Churches are based, rather than the First being based on the model of bishops gathered in Synod with the Chief of them.

Quote
"Primus inter pares" in something the Orthodox can live with.  The concept of "universal primacy" assigned to a "Protos" is lethal to Orthodox ecclesiology.

It is one of those things that has kept us seperated from the OO.

Quote
This matter will have some serious discussions in the upcoming Great Synod.  Moscow is already preparing a major statement to refute it and highlight the errors in the Ravenna Document.
Go Moscow.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 09:41:03 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2009, 09:38:35 AM »

Extract:  "...the Orthodox church has a structure different
than that of the Catholic Church, as we have no single universal primate.
 ... There must be no illusion that there is such a hierarch."


Papal-primacy compromise out, Orthodox church official says

5/30/2007
Catholic News Service (www.catholicnews.com)

MOSCOW (CNS) - A Russian Orthodox official who represents his church on a Catholic-Orthodox commission said his church rules out any compromise on papal primacy

"Historically, the primacy of the bishop of Rome in the Christian church, from our point of view, was that of honor, not jurisdiction -- the jurisdiction of the pope of Rome was never applied to all the churches," said Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev of Vienna and Austria, who represents the Russian Orthodox Church on the International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches.

The commission is scheduled to meet in October in Ravenna, Italy, for the 10th plenary since its creation in 1979. After a six-year break, the 60-member commission reconvened in September to debate conciliarity and authority.

"There can be no compromise whatsoever" on papal primacy, Bishop Hilarion said in a May 28 interview with Russia's Interfax newsagency.

He added that "the aim of the theological dialogue is not at all to reach a compromise. For us, it is rather to identify the church's original view of primacy."

The Moscow Patriarchate was drafting its own document on primacy, which would help him "assert our official point of view" at future talks, said Bishop Hilarion.

"These are the questions around which principal problems will emerge," Bishop Hilarion said. "I protested and will continue to protest if such important theological and ecclesiological questions are put to the vote. What is at stake here is not to identify a majority or minority opinion, but to find the truth."

Bishop Hilarion also said the commission's composition failed to reflect "the actual distribution of powers and views in the Orthodox world," since each Orthodox church was represented by two members, despite its size.

"The millions-strong Russian church is represented in the commission by only two delegates, while any other Orthodox church, even if smaller numerically, is also represented by two delegates," he said. He added that the Orthodox co-chairman, a representative of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, should act as a moderator and not impose his views on others.

He added that Russian church leaders were against calls for Pope Benedict XVI and Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople to attend the Ravenna talks.

"When the pope of Rome and patriarch of Constantinople meet, the secular media, who have a poor knowledge of refinements of Orthodox ecclesiology, tend to present it as a meeting of the heads of the two churches – Catholic and Orthodox," said the bishop. "However, the Orthodox church has a structure different than that of the Catholic Church, as we have no single universal primate. ... There must be no illusion that there is such a hierarch."
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 09:51:44 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,604



« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2009, 10:10:51 AM »


Does anyone have the Greek of Apostolic Canon XXXIV handy?
Quote
Canon XXXIV.  (XXXV.)

The bishops of every nation must acknowledge him who is first among them and account him as their head, and do nothing of consequence without his consent; but each may do those things only which concern his own parish, and the country places which belong to it.  But neither let him (who is the first) do anything without the consent of all; for so there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified through the Lord in the Holy Spirit.

Yes, a very applicable canon.

As Moscow stated very firmly after the Ravenna Document appeared, we know a local primacy (in the bishop) and we know a regional primacy (in the synod of a region) but we do not know and shall never acknowledge a universal primacy where gives any bishop a global primacy.


Archbishop Hilarion quotes St. Simeon of Thessalonica:

Quote
First of all, the recognition of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome must be preceded by the restoration of the unity of faith, the unity of the dogmatic tradition of the ancient undivided Church. 'We should not contradict the Latins,' wrote St. Simeon of Thessalonica in the 15th century, 'when they say that the Bishop of Rome is the first. This primacy is not harmful to the Church. But only let them show that he is true to the faith of Peter and his successors; then let him have all the privileges of Peter, let him be first, the head of all and the supreme hierarch. Only let him be faithful to the Orthodoxy of Sylvester and Agathon, Leo, Liberius, Martin and Gregory, then we too shall call him apostolic father and the first among hierarchs; then we will be under his authority not only as under Peter, but the very Saviour Himself' (PG 145, 120 AC). The path to restoring the unity of faith thus lies in bilateral dialogue between theologians of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The Orthodox are of the opinion that in this dialogue the Catholics must prove that their faith is identical to that of the ancient undivided Church.

His Grace goes on:

Quote
Although the rights and duties of the primate vary in different Local Churches, there is not a single Local Church that accords him supreme authority, for it is the council that has always been the final authority. For example, in the Russian Orthodox Church dogmatic authority is granted to the Local Council, in which not only bishops, but also clergy, monastics and laity participate, while the highest form of hierarchical government is the Bishops' Council. As for the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, he governs the Church in cooperation with the Holy Synod during periods between councils, and his name is commemorated in all dioceses before the name of the ruling bishop. In the Orthodox Church of Greece there is no Local Council that includes the participation of laity: the final authority rests with the Bishops' Synod, chaired by the Archbishop of Athens and All Greece. At church services, however, only the Synod, and not the Archbishop, is commemorated ....

Within the local Church the primacy of the bishop is unconditional and uncontested. For the Orthodox tradition, founded both on the theological legacy of the Fathers of the ancient Church (such as St. Cyprian of Carthage), as well as on later polemical writings of Byzantine theologians, each bishop, and not only the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Apostle Peter. Barlaam of Calabria, an important Byzantine theologian of the 14th century (who, incidentally, ended his life in the Catholic Church), writes: 'Each Orthodox bishop is the vicar of Christ and the successor of the apostles, so that if all bishops of the world were to apostasize from the true faith and only one were to remain the keeper of the correct dogmas. the faith of the divine Peter would be saved in him.' He further writes: 'The bishops ordained by Peter are the successors not only of Peter, but also of the other Apostles; to the same degree bishops ordained by others are the successors of Peter.'

The promise given to Peter, according to this viewpoint, extends not only to the Roman Church, but also to all local Churches headed bishops: 'you have made Peter into the teacher of only Rome', an anonymous author of a Byzantine anti-Latin treatise writes, 'while the divine Fathers interpret the promise given to him by the Saviour as having a catholic meaning and concerning all believers past and present. You attempt to give it a false and narrow interpretation, applying it only to Rome. It then becomes impossible to understand how not only the Roman Church, but all Churches have a Saviour and how their foundations rest on the Stone, i.e. on the confession of Peter, according to the promise.'

How does the catholicity of a local Church relate to the catholicity of the Church throughout the world? Protopresbyter John Meyendorff defines this relationship in the following manner: 'The idea of the local Church headed by the bishop, who is usually chosen by the entire Church but is invested with the charismatic and apostolic functions as the successor of Peter, is the doctrinal foundation of catholicity as it entered the Church from the third century. For the Eucharistic ecclesiology assumes that each local Church, although possessing the fullness of catholicity, is always in unity and concord with all the other Churches, which also have part in this catholicity. The bishops not only bear moral responsibility for this community: they participate in the one episcopal ministry. Each bishop fulfils his service together with other bishops, since it is equivalent with that of the others and since the Church is one.' As St. Cyprian of Carthage writes: 'The episcopate is one, and each of the bishops fully participates in it.'

His Grace has a number of other cogent things to say on this matter:
http://02varvara.wordpress.com/2007/11/20/bishop-hilarion-alfeyev-urges-the-vatican-not-to-impose-the-ecumenical-patriarch-as-an-%E2%80%9Ceastern-pope%E2%80%9D-on-the-orthodox-world/
Quote
Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev Urges the Vatican Not to Impose the Ecumenical Patriarch as an “Eastern Pope” on the Orthodox World

Quote
However, it is not at all clear how the removal of the title could possibly ameliorate Catholic-Orthodox relations. It seems that the omission of the title "Patriarch of the West" is meant to confirm the claim to universal church jurisdiction that is reflected in the pope's other titles, and if the Orthodox reaction to the gesture will not be positive, it should not be a surprise.

In this context unacceptable and even scandalous, from the Orthodox point of view, are precisely those titles that remain in the list, i.e. Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.

According to the Orthodox teaching, Christ has no "vicar" who would govern the universal Church in His name.

The title "Successor of the Prince of the Apostles" refers to the Roman Catholic teaching on the primacy of Peter that was passed on to the Bishop of Rome and that submitted to him the universal Church. This teaching has been criticized in Orthodox polemical literature from Byzantine time onwards.

The title "Supreme Pontiff" (pontifex maximus) originally belonged to the pagan emperors of Rome. It was not rejected by Emperor Constantine when he converted to Christianity. With relation to the pope of Rome the title "Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church" points to the pope's universal jurisdiction which is not and will never be recognized by the Orthodox Churches. It is precisely this title that should have been dropped first, had the move been motivated by the quest for "ecumenical progress" and desire for amelioration of the Catholic-Orthodox relations.
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/HilarionPope.php

The issue with the Vatican model is that it makes the Apostles not the font of the episcopacy, but St. Peter's appointees, and all bishops not the successors of the Apostles, but acolytes of the Successors of St. Peter.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,164



« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2009, 11:57:28 AM »

I agree with Irish Hermit. The last article of the Ravenna Document was clearly contrary to what had preceded it and sneaks in a concept of equivalency between the various kinds of "protos." Here it is:

"44. In the history of the East and of the West, at least until the ninth century, a series of prerogatives was recognised, always in the context of conciliarity, according to the conditions of the times, for the protos or kephale at each of the established ecclesiastical levels: locally, for the bishop as protos of his diocese with regard to his presbyters and people; regionally, for the protos of each metropolis with regard to the bishops of his province, and for the protos of each of the five patriarchates, with regard to the metropolitans of each circumscription; and universally, for the bishop of Rome as protos among the patriarchs. This distinction of levels does not diminish the sacramental equality of every bishop or the catholicity of each local Church."

Orthodox (or Christian) ecclesiology has never had a universal head. That is Roman Catholic fiction and I very surprised that the Orthodox participants allowed this to slip in. Shame on them!
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2009, 12:15:04 PM »

Thanks for your opinions guys.
You might find this book interesting:
http://store.holycrossbookstore.com/188565202x.html
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,604



« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2009, 01:06:51 PM »

Thanks for your opinions guys.
You might find this book interesting:
http://store.holycrossbookstore.com/188565202x.html

Just finished my order.

Thanks a lot George, my sons thank you.  For your $4 book, I blew $60 on them (for those who have younger Orthoodox, there is a number of books with ORTHODOX illustrations.  I got two Bibles and Hopko's book on Christ in the New Testament: I like the format and thought).  And a book on Greek chant I've been meaning to get.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2009, 01:32:55 PM »

Thanks for your opinions guys.
You might find this book interesting:
http://store.holycrossbookstore.com/188565202x.html

Just finished my order.

Thanks a lot George, my sons thank you.  For your $4 book, I blew $60 on them (for those who have younger Orthoodox, there is a number of books with ORTHODOX illustrations.  I got two Bibles and Hopko's book on Christ in the New Testament: I like the format and thought).  And a book on Greek chant I've been meaning to get.
See? Now everybody's happy!  Cheesy
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,164



« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2009, 04:32:37 PM »

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21).

With all due respect, I reread John 17:11-21 (New King James Version) a couple of times, and see nothing in it that would support your assertion that Church being the ikon of the Holy Trinity or "the Community par excellence."

I suppose you could point out to the fact that Jesus is praying to God The Father as some kind of argument of subordination, akin to the appeals brought forth to the EP. On the other hand, there are so many (wrong) implications to this approach; I thought we had the various Christological disputes behind us. Respectfully,
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2009, 05:08:42 PM »

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21).

With all due respect, I reread John 17:11-21 (New King James Version) a couple of times, and see nothing in it that would support your assertion that Church being the ikon of the Holy Trinity or "the Community par excellence."

I suppose you could point out to the fact that Jesus is praying to God The Father as some kind of argument of subordination, akin to the appeals brought forth to the EP. On the other hand, there are so many (wrong) implications to this approach; I thought we had the various Christological disputes behind us. Respectfully,
Thank you for your opinion.
You might find this book interesting:
http://www.skete.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1175
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 30,401


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2009, 11:46:36 PM »

The Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity- the Community par excellence (John 17:11-21).

With all due respect, I reread John 17:11-21 (New King James Version) a couple of times, and see nothing in it that would support your assertion that Church being the ikon of the Holy Trinity or "the Community par excellence."

I suppose you could point out to the fact that Jesus is praying to God The Father as some kind of argument of subordination, akin to the appeals brought forth to the EP. On the other hand, there are so many (wrong) implications to this approach; I thought we had the various Christological disputes behind us. Respectfully,
Thank you for your opinion.
You might find this book interesting:
http://www.skete.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1175

As well as Being as Communion, by Metropolitan John Zizioulas.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2009, 01:16:06 AM »

Thanks for your opinions guys.
You might find this book interesting:
http://store.holycrossbookstore.com/188565202x.html

The problem with assuming that any one Church or any one Bishop has an inalienable  God-given right to primacy is easily disposed of by a look at Church history.

The primacy of honour was initially held by the Mother Church, Jerusalem.

Then it came to be held by Rome since 1) Jerusalem was destroyed, 2) Peter and Paul had been martyred in Rome and 3) Rome held great political significance as the capital of the Empire.

What is fascinating here is that Rome continued to hold the primacy even though its "glory had departed."  From the 5th century it had been subject to a massive decrease in influence due to the barbarian incursions and eventual conquest.  But even though Rome had fallen on hard times and at one point the Emperor abandoned it and made Ravenna the capital city it continued to be seen as the See with a primacy of honour, until it fell away from the Church in the 11th century.

Then it came to be held by Constantinople after the Schism. 

Constantinople came to be seen as having the primacy of honour, although this was never confirmd by any concilar decision by the Churches.  It took on a de facto primacy of honour by the common consent of the Churches.

Like Rome, Constantantinople maintained this primacy of honour for hundreds of years after the Ottoman Empire reduced it to a minor and unkempt suburb of the city and all the glory of the ecumene was totally destroyed.

It seems to some that it may be time to look for a new See more worthy to carry the flagstaff of Orthodoxy in these times and to bear the primacy of honour. ...to look for a Church which has strength, influence, many bishops, many healthy monasteries, and (let's face it) is not so indigent that it needs to survive by donations of money from its faithful in the New World.

Has the time arrived when the Spirit is telling us that changes are needed?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 01:25:15 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2009, 01:44:01 AM »

Protos!

There can be only one!

Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,884


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2009, 01:59:35 AM »

Once again, the myth that that The Patriarchate of Constantinople derives substantial financial support from the "New World" resurfaces...
How many times must this be debunked?

I wonder if Great Lent has come in the southern hemisphere.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2009, 02:18:02 AM »

Once again, the myth that that The Patriarchate of Constantinople derives substantial financial support from the "New World" resurfaces...
How many times must this be debunked?

I have not seen it debunked and would be very happy to examine the evidence.  Could you offer references.

Certainly the approximately 2,500 Greek faithful in Constantinople would be hard put to maintain the Patriarchate and its expenses, the churches and their maintenance and the salaries of the many titular bishops.  Here in my city we have the same number of Greek Orthodox and they struggle hard financially to maintain much less by way of plant and personnel.

Quote
I wonder if Great Lent has come in the southern hemisphere.

Is that a way of rebuking me for something?   I am sorry if I have offended you.  Accept a cyber prostration.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,884


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2009, 02:45:15 AM »

Try a search here. I'm not going to go through, again, what we did here just a few months ago.

Frankly, what the EP gets from America is pitifully small. Nearly all his support is from Greece (as is that of Jerusalem and Alexandria)
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2009, 03:18:26 AM »

Try a search here. I'm not going to go through, again, what we did here just a few months ago.
Thanks, Ill try a search.  Interesting to see the sums of money which pass from the States to Constantinople annually.

Quote
Nearly all his support is from Greece (as is that of Jerusalem and Alexandria)
Is this support from the Greek Government's budget?   It ought to be on line but if it is in Greek I haven't any chance of locating it.

However my point, in the context of this thread, was that we should not expect a Church which is not financially self-supporting to hold the primacy of honour.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,884


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2009, 03:25:08 AM »

In which case, by your position, Moscow was self-supporting prior to 1990's?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,096


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2009, 03:39:40 AM »

However my point, in the context of this thread, was that we should not expect a Church which is not financially self-supporting to hold the primacy of honour.

Perhaps this might help, Fr Ambrose:

It is worth remembering that, along with Constantinople, the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem are also in countries which, for centuries now, can hardly be considered majority Christian, let alone majority Orthodox. Yet, these patriarchates retain the same significance as they always have. The "power" of a Patriarchate is not temporal, but spiritual. Whenever a patriarchate assumes temporal power, that's when things go sour (as, sadly, the mediaeval papacy shows us ...)
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2009, 03:46:35 AM »

This is a 2007 report from the Archons of the Ecumenical Throne concerning the truly wretched state  of the Patriarch and the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Brothers and Sisters, this report will make you weep and it will inspire you to prayer for the well-being of this ancient and holy Patriarchate.

But it also opens our eyes as to why a Church in such a restricted and controlled environment lacking even basic freedoms should probably not be the See which presides in the Orthodox world.  Its freedom is simply too circumscribed by a hostile government in Turkey

"Religious Freedom: The Ecumenical Patriarchate in Istanbul"

The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe
2007 Human Dimension Implementation Meeting


http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2007/09/26602_en.pdf

Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 9,884


ΠΑΝΑΓΙΑ ΣΟΥΜΕΛΑ


« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2009, 03:55:02 AM »

You're just going to persist, even on the Lord's Day, aren't you?

It's 4 AM here.

I'm all for Jerusalem taking primacy, or Alexandria, or Serbia, ...any but Moscow now.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2009, 03:57:04 AM »

In which case, by your position, Moscow was self-supporting prior to 1990's?

Sorry, Aristoklis, I don't understand the question?


I suppose that Moscow *was* self-supporting prior to the 1990s.  No Government money was allocated to support the churches in the cities and towns and villages which were operating at that time.  In Moscow itself a total of 8 churches continued to function as "working" churches through all the years of Communism.  They were self-supporting.   
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 04:09:54 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2009, 04:04:22 AM »

You're just going to persist, even on the Lord's Day, aren't you?


Dear Aristoklis,

This discussion is a neutral one for me, an interesting and academic one.   It never occured to me that it could be riling you.  It is not riling me.   

The matter is of immediate interest on two counts

1. the statements on "universal primacy" in the Ravenna Document, advocated by Constantinople and rejected by Moscow.

2. the desire of the Ecumenical Patriarch to proceed as quickly as posible to the Great Council where this topic will inevitably be a major item for discussion and decision.
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 9,096


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2009, 05:01:03 AM »

I realise this is off-topic, but can someone please explain why the tag "fake monk" appears at the bottom of this thread?
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,838


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2009, 07:50:49 AM »

Once again, the myth that that The Patriarchate of Constantinople derives substantial financial support from the "New World" resurfaces...
How many times must this be debunked?

I have not seen it debunked and would be very happy to examine the evidence.  Could you offer references.

Certainly the approximately 2,500 Greek faithful in Constantinople would be hard put to maintain the Patriarchate and its expenses, the churches and their maintenance and the salaries of the many titular bishops.  Here in my city we have the same number of Greek Orthodox and they struggle hard financially to maintain much less by way of plant and personnel.

The Patriarchate's biggest benefactor is the Government of Greece, which supports it to a far greater degree than any support from the New World.  What confuses people should be simple: the Archons, contrary to popular opinion, don't send half their income and their first-born child to the Patriarchate for their status; often they have not contributed anything to the Patriarchate, but have rather served as important figures for a long time in our Archdiocese, have years of dedicated lay ministry to the Church, etc.  Some indeed have provided financial assistance to the Patriarchate, but usually these have been one-time large contributions for specific projects (like the restoration of the Cathedral of St. George a few decades ago, etc.).  While the "books" of the Patriarchate are not open, this information has come from the deacons and priests that I spoke to on my trip there.  It is also a continued source of tension between the EP and Turkey - the Turks want to still see the EP as a political entity (just as the Sultans used them for hundreds of years), and the support of the Greek government does nothing to dissuade that.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2009, 07:58:00 AM »

The Patriarchate's biggest benefactor is the Government of Greece...

Where would one find the governmental figures?  They must publish an annual budget or financial report.... a matter of public record.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 07:59:50 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,604



« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2009, 09:16:56 AM »

You're just going to persist, even on the Lord's Day, aren't you?

It's 4 AM here.

I'm all for Jerusalem taking primacy, or Alexandria, or Serbia, ...any but Moscow now.

Funny you shoul mention that.  This is the next topic I'm tackling on the thread on autocephaly
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19811.0.html

I've reached the part where I'm going to go into my read of the history, that autocephaly, once achieved/given, has something irreducible about it.  It is in reaction in large part to the thread that claims that a Mother Church can at any time revoke autocephaly, some of Constantinople's loudest supporters answering in the affirmative.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15123.0.html

Myself, I neither for the abolition/translation of the EP (though of all the autocephalous Churches, including the OCA, the EP is the one most susceptible to this argument), nor for primacy being taken away from Constantinople (though again, Constantinople has at present the weakest claim for it), based in part on the history of the Jerusalem patriarchate.

What does Jerusalem have to do with it?

On the autocephaly thread I've been summarizing its history, and have reached the point of a century after the Ascension.

At that point in history, Jerusalem had been conquered by an alien force and incorporated into an alien, hostile empire which banned the Faithful, and even banned the Faithful from coming anywhere near it.   She had been renamed Aelia, remade to the liking of her conqueror, colonized by them, placed under the rule of an upstart Caesarea (which had been established as a suffragan by the Apostles).  Her shrines had been turned until pagan temples: a temple to Jupiter on Temple Mount, a temple to Venus on the Holy Sepulchre, with a lesser shrine on Golgatha.  The pool who had been drawn on for the episcopacy, the  Desposyni relatives of the Lord according to the flesh and their Hebrew race, had been forced to flee: the Faithful dwindled to a faithful remanant, while the bulk sought refuge across the Jordan amongst their kiindred in the safety out of the reach of the rulers of Judea.  As millenarism faded, so did her present role in conscienciousness of the Christians, The Christians outside of Palestine helped as they could.

Anyone NOT see the likeness to Constantinople, or should I say Istanbul, of today?

And yet two centuries later the Fathers at Nicea would recognize (c. 7):
Since custom and ancient tradition have prevailed according to which the bishop of Aelia [i.e. Jerusalem] is honored, let him enjoy the honor which flows from his position....
http://books.google.com/books?id=Umse6CFnt3MC&dq=The+Church+of+the+Ancient+Councils&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=sDcDJyjSjk&sig=wu21apY9DInc5vz3BjPxI3VL7SA&hl=en&ei=Dnm8SfT1I4-ltgen99n5Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA53,M1
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 09:20:10 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,838


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2009, 11:05:35 AM »

The Patriarchate's biggest benefactor is the Government of Greece...

Where would one find the governmental figures?  They must publish an annual budget or financial report.... a matter of public record.

We'd need someone well-versed in Greek economics language (i.e. someone much more fluent than I)... I don't even know if the government posts in online or not.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2009, 05:13:19 PM »

I placed this is "Christian News" so that it gets a wide readership but it is very relevant to this particular thread.
Hieromonk Ambrose
___________________________________________

Reported on OrthodoxNews

Holy Cross Seminary has been in an uproar for the last few days. Below is a link to a speech given there on Monday:

Challenges of Orthodoxy in America And the Role of the Ecumenical Patriarchate
by Very Reverend Archimandrite Dr. Elpidophoros Lambriniadis
Chief Secretary of the Holy and Sacred Synod

Just scroll past the Greek and you will see the speech.
http://www.greekamericannewsagency.com/gana/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4771&Itemid=83

Logged
SolEX01
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 10,193


WWW
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2009, 06:43:37 PM »

The Patriarchate's biggest benefactor is the Government of Greece...

Where would one find the governmental figures?  They must publish an annual budget or financial report.... a matter of public record.

We'd need someone well-versed in Greek economics language (i.e. someone much more fluent than I)... I don't even know if the government posts in online or not.

The Greek Government does post budget information on its Finance Ministry Website (both English and Greek).

The culture budget, in Euros, is as follows (based on line item in English language summary):

05 Culture, religion, sports 886,366,000 253,000,000 1,139,366,000
First number is ordinary budget.  Second number is investment.  Third number is sum.

Page 7 of Source

If we go to Page 12, we see the following break down:

05.07 Religion, 241,640,000 Euros for ordinary budget.

The budget for Culture, Sports and Religion comes from multiple Ministries within the Greek Government.  There may not exist a line item breakdown of money given to the Ecumenical Patriarchate
Logged
Tags: primus inter pares Primacy EP Bashing 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.172 seconds with 72 queries.