OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 02, 2014, 07:31:22 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: St. Peter the Aleut  (Read 2826 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« on: February 18, 2009, 12:27:07 AM »

I've read about him before on Wikipedia, but recently the article has changed a bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Aleut

This is how it opens!!!
Quote
There is some question as to whether he ever existed, or whether the highly questionable account of his "martyrdom" is a fiction created to justify Russian incursions on Spanish colonial territories.

I never knew his existence was questioned, anyone know much about this? The article seems extremely bias nonetheless.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:27:24 AM by antiderivative » Logged

signature
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2009, 12:30:34 AM »

You must remember that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at anytime. So it isn't all that reliable for accuracy.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:31:02 AM by Quinault » Logged
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 12:33:51 AM »

But is Wikipedia the only place where his existence is questioned?
Logged

signature
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2009, 12:36:23 AM »

I have read Roman Catholic works that question his life. But given how he died I'm not surprised.
http://www.deathtotheworld.com/lot/lives/stpeterthealeut/index.html

I must confess that as an American indian I find his story very moving. And if the child I am carrying is a boy we will likely choose either St. Peter the Aleut or St. Herman as his patron saint.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:37:54 AM by Quinault » Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2009, 12:39:47 AM »

Certain people question his existance since they try to poke holes using the Jesuit inconsistancy.  Accounts say that the Jesuits were not in the area when St. Peter's martyrdom took place, using that to discredit the event took place at all.  Certain accounts of the martyrdom claim it was Jesuits, while others just mention Roman Catholics with no direct reference to an Order.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:41:42 AM by Nebelpfade » Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2009, 01:08:40 AM »

I at least removed that opening sentence from the article.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2009, 01:47:36 AM »

I've read about him before on Wikipedia, but recently the article has changed a bit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Aleut

This is how it opens!!!
Quote
There is some question as to whether he ever existed, or whether the highly questionable account of his "martyrdom" is a fiction created to justify Russian incursions on Spanish colonial territories.

I never knew his existence was questioned, anyone know much about this? The article seems extremely bias nonetheless.

Another phrase catches my eye:
Quote
There are, however, numerous accounts of Russians and Aleuts who escaped brutal treatment aboard Russian ships to the relative safety of the Spanish missions, some of whom even accepted baptism,[10] for example, at Mission San Buenaventura. Bancroft also confirms this

Hmmmm.  Could this be a fiction created to justify Spanish blocking of Russian colonial territories?

Btw, the Jesuits were restored in Mexico in 1814, expelled from Russia in 1815. As to the former, it is said the Restored Jesuits tried "to be more Catholic than the Pope," and, in the words of the "Catholic Encyclopedia" tried to repay the Russian hospitality during the suppression by converting the Russians.  Given those circumstances and it seems that the story of St. Peter the Aleut fits the times.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,349


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2009, 02:49:39 AM »

I can understand the desire among many Roman Catholics to cover up this black eye on their historical record.  It certainly doesn't help their side in today's ecumenical dialogues.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2009, 09:04:04 AM »

You must remember that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at anytime. So it isn't all that reliable for accuracy. 

Not exactly true - there are people who act as general editors, who can undo any questionable insertions and who will eventually call for sources to be referenced in the articles.  However, Wiki does pride itself on "full disclosure" within the articles (i.e. letting you know if it is a controversial subject), so I am not surprised by the opening line on the article.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,349


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2009, 12:42:06 PM »

You must remember that Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at anytime. So it isn't all that reliable for accuracy. 

Not exactly true - there are people who act as general editors, who can undo any questionable insertions and who will eventually call for sources to be referenced in the articles.  However, Wiki does pride itself on "full disclosure" within the articles (i.e. letting you know if it is a controversial subject), so I am not surprised by the opening line on the article.
Yes, to wikipedia's credit, we do see this at the top of the article:

The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page. (December 2008)
Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved.
Logged
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 08:03:18 PM »

I have noticed Wikipedia does become very bias on subjects that aren't very well known. It probably has to do with less editors to check "not-well-known" subjects.
Logged

signature
The young fogey
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,732


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 08:32:00 PM »

I don't think it's an RC plot to cover up the truth.

I too wonder if he was real. For one thing the story varies whether the perpetrators were Jesuits or Franciscans. Either way I don't believe seminary-trained clergy would have been so stupid as to torture and kill a baptised, chrismated and communed member of another apostolic church.

If he was real then... according to Rome he was right and his torturers wrong.

Which may be one reason why the two small Russian Catholic churches (not actually Russian any more - born RCs who love everything Russian and Orthodox but don't want to break with Rome) in California, which follow the OCA calendar, commemorate him.
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 11:37:36 PM »

I don't think it's an RC plot to cover up the truth.

I too wonder if he was real. For one thing the story varies whether the perpetrators were Jesuits or Franciscans
Since I doubt had a great deal of knowledge to distinguish between the Jesuits (who in fact only out in public in Russia for the generation before 1815) and the Franciscans (who dominated California, hence San Francisco).

Quote
Either way I don't believe seminary-trained clergy would have been so stupid as to torture and kill a baptised, chrismated and communed member of another apostolic church.
Never heard of Josaphat Kuntsevych, the Spanish Inquisition, etc., huh?

Quote
If he was real then... according to Rome he was right and his torturers wrong.

Correction: according to Rome's present line.  1815 is pre-Vatican II.

Quote
Which may be one reason why the two small Russian Catholic churches (not actually Russian any more - born RCs who love everything Russian and Orthodox but don't want to break with Rome) in California, which follow the OCA calendar, commemorate him.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 11:38:01 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2009, 12:52:38 AM »


Either way I don't believe seminary-trained clergy would have been so stupid as to torture and kill a baptised, chrismated and communed member of another apostolic church.
Never heard of Josaphat Kuntsevych, the Spanish Inquisition, etc., huh?


In my opinion, the history of St. Peter the Aleut is real.

On one hand, while crimes of Josaphat Kuntsevych and the Inquisition were worse then terrible, it was another situation in 1815 in California. Nevertheless, it could be a small group, which committed this terrible crime against St. Peter the Aleut, potentially even without the knowledge of their own bishop. Of course, the majority of the seminary-trained clergy would not even imagene getting invloved in something like this. Not all martyrs were killed by powerful dictatorships. Some suffered from hands of small groups of fanatics or career criminals - St. Protopriest John Karastamatis, St. Anastasia Strogilos, Fr. Alexander Men', Jose Munios, Fr. Ihumen Ilya (Hamaza).

St. Peter the Aleut, please pray to God for us.
Logged
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2009, 01:02:39 AM »

Yes, I would imagine it happened without the permission of Catholic bishops, not an event that can speak for the entire Roman Catholic church at that time.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 01:03:09 AM by antiderivative » Logged

signature
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,192


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2009, 12:14:55 PM »

I can understand the desire among many Roman Catholics to cover up this black eye on their historical record.  It certainly doesn't help their side in today's ecumenical dialogues.
Unless he really existed and was killed recently, I am not sure how it would affect ecumenical dialogue today, unless of course people want to keep bringing up REALLY old wounds like when the latins were massacred in Constantinople.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2009, 11:39:23 AM »

I had forgotten about this:
Quote
A hundred-pound bell was unearthed in an orange grove near Mission San Fernando Rey de España, Southern California, in 1920. It carried the following inscription (translated from Russian): "In the Year 1796, in the month of January, this bell was cast on the Island of Kodiak by the blessing of Archimandrite Joseph, during the sojourn of Alexandr Baranov." It is not known how this Russian Orthodox artifact from Kodiak, Alaska, made its way to a Roman Catholic mission in Southern California, though its existence provides proof of the Russian diaspora on the Pacific Rim and its intertwining with Spanish and Native American cultures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_the_Americas

Seems we don't know as much about California of the time as we think.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 11:39:52 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags: saints 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.082 seconds with 43 queries.