OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 17, 2014, 08:24:39 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags CHAT Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is It Necessary to Abstain from Meat for One Week Before Communion?  (Read 18647 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2009, 06:43:45 AM »

At the risk of sounding like an uneducated bafoon, what are the "risks" of partaking of the gifts weekly?

I think that we need a deeper investigation of why all the Orthodox observed a particular pattern of receiving Communion for 1,600 years. 

What "risks" do you see involved with Communion four or five times a year?   The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we can point to thousands of Saints who observed this pattern of communing.  In fact, apart from the first 300 years of martyrdom, it has been the ONLY pattern of communing.   

Why do people wish to abandon it in the 21st century?  What "evil" effects were associated with communing four times a year?   Was this not the period when the Church established itself in many countries,  brought entire nations to Christ, created thousands of monasteries whch gave us holy men and women in numbers which today we cannot even dream of.

Quote
Are there any writings that suggest otherwise?

Well, yes, you can run through books which speak of communing once a year.  You can find booklets from Athos from around 1900 which direct both monks and laity to commune once a year.

But above all, we have the unwavering tradition.  This is the greatest and most compelling of "writings."
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2009, 07:03:29 AM »

Quote
Are there any writings that suggest otherwise?

Quote
Well, yes, you can run through books which speak of communing once a year.  You can find booklets from Athos from around 1900 which direct both monks and laity to commune once a year.

Well,, this is something I never expected to find on the Internet!  An Athonite leaflet on communion from Saint Panteleimon's monastery in 1905.  It mentions that Christians generally go to communion once a year and it is encouraging more frequent reception.

http://www.roca.org/OA/151/151c.htm
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2009, 07:07:41 AM »

At the risk of sounding like an uneducated bafoon, what are the "risks" of partaking of the gifts weekly?
Theosis.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2009, 07:14:08 AM »


Are there any writings that suggest otherwise?


Perhaps we should look at the practices of the Ancient Church.
For example, why does the Orthodox Church have Liturgies of the Presanctified Gifts in the middle of the week during Lent?
Why the need for these Liturgies if people were expected to Commune only "Four or five times a year"?
The First Christians (among whom are countless Saints if we want to gauge orthopraxis by that) Communed DAILY, and when the Divine Liturgy stopped being celebrated on the weekdays of Lent, the Presanctified Liturgy replaced it so that we could continue to Commune on weekdays. We have still kept the practice of the Presanctified Liturgies on weekdays of Lent as a witness to the time when Christians Communed daily. Clearly then, infrequent Communion is an innovation and not in keeping with the ancient tradition of the Church- a tradition which, ironically, the Anglicans have maintained better than some Orthodox who abstain from Communion out of a misguided (plani) "piety":
As far as those western converts are concerned, the reason why Anglican converts expect weekly communion is because the Anglican churches have largely suppressed the medieval innovation of watching communion rather than taking communion.

Communion is a Medicine, not a homeopathy. We need to take frequent, full doses, not infrequent homeopathic (diluted) doses.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 07:53:45 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2009, 08:30:45 AM »

At the risk of sounding like an uneducated bafoon, what are the "risks" of partaking of the gifts weekly?
Theosis.

The answer puzzles me.   Our greatest Saints, the men and women whom we venerate today,  attained to a high level of theosis during their earthly life while receiving Communion infrequently.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2009, 08:45:04 AM »

Communion is a Medicine, not a homeopathy. We need to take frequent, full doses, not infrequent homeopathic (diluted) doses.

The bolded part raises questions.  Many contemporary Orthodox state it as if it is some sort of infallible and unquestionable statement and if someone questions it they are looked at with pity or ridicule.  Against this statement we need to balance the centuries old praxis of the Church, of ALL the Orthodox Churches,  which shows that the Church did NOT believe that frequent 'doses' were needed.

They say that comparisons are odious, but from experience I can say that the grannies and elderly men in the parish who receive Communion only a few times a year and with intensive preparation seem to have many of the fruits and signs of an advanced spiritual life, more so than the younger people (mainly converts) who want Communion much more frequently.   It is this kind of practical and hands-on experience which makes me draw back from demanding frequent Communion for all (although it was, I have to admit, a frequent topic of my sermons when I was a young priest!)
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2009, 09:07:58 AM »

They say that comparisons are odious, but from experience I can say that the grannies and elderly men in the parish who receive Communion only a few times a year and with intensive preparation seem to have many of the fruits and signs of an advanced spiritual life,

How does one judge people like this? How does one know who is "spiritually advanced" in Orthodoxy which is the hidden life?  How is parading piety a sign of "spiritual advancement"?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2009, 09:09:04 AM »

If you think infrequent communion was bad, try mindless, sacrilegious communions. Infrequent communion never prevented holiness, but sacrilegious communions are a barrier to salvation. Period.
So you think frequent reception of Communion is itself a sacrilege? Huh

Yes, the fact that many people were made holy despite receiving the Holy Mysteries no more than four times per year is evidence that God can truly work in exceptional ways to bring people to salvation, but weekly Communion was the norm established by the Church of the first three centuries.  So how can such a deviation from this norm, such as the infrequent Communion we see in many churches today, be salvific for the vast majority of us, who don't have the special blessing from God to receive infrequently?

I NEVER said that frequent reception of Communion is a sacrilege. Frequent communion with proper preparation is certainly the ideal.

But frequent Communion WITHOUT PREPARATION is a sacrilege, even by Catholic standards. And if push comes to shove, I think that infrequent communion is better than sinful and sacrilegious communions, because the former does not directly endanger one's salvation but the latter is definitely a path to eternal damnation. Of course, BOTH options are not ideal. The ideal is frequent communion with preparation.

For the record, I am not against frequent Communion. I myself am a frequent communicant. However, what I cannot understand is the idea that frequent Communion is always good, regardless of the personal preparation of the communicants. Even the Catholic Church officially condemns that idea, although the practice is sadly different (and is deplored by good, devout Catholics).  

« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 09:10:42 AM by filipinopilgrim » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2009, 09:10:11 AM »

Our greatest Saints, the men and women whom we venerate today,  attained to a high level of theosis during their earthly life while receiving Communion infrequently.

The First Christians (among whom are countless Saints if we want to gauge orthopraxis by that) Communed DAILY, and when the Divine Liturgy stopped being celebrated on the weekdays of Lent, the Presanctified Liturgy replaced it so that we could continue to Commune on weekdays. We have still kept the practice of the Presanctified Liturgies on weekdays of Lent as a witness to the time when Christians Communed daily. Clearly then, infrequent Communion is an innovation and not in keeping with the ancient tradition of the Church- a tradition which, ironically, the Anglicans have maintained better than some Orthodox who abstain from Communion out of a misguided (plani) "piety":
As far as those western converts are concerned, the reason why Anglican converts expect weekly communion is because the Anglican churches have largely suppressed the medieval innovation of watching communion rather than taking communion.

Communion is a Medicine, not a homeopathy. We need to take frequent, full doses, not infrequent homeopathic (diluted) doses.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2009, 09:13:57 AM »

I NEVER said that frequent reception of Communion is a sacrilege. Frequent communion with proper preparation is certainly the ideal.

I'm afraid this doesn't work in Orthodoxy.
In the Divine Liturgy, just before Communion, the Priest lifts the Gifts and intones: "The Holies are for the Holy". To which we respond "One is Holy, One is the Lord Jesus Christ to the Glory of God the Father Amen." In other words we are admitting that we are not holy.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2009, 09:14:40 AM »

At the risk of sounding like an uneducated bafoon, what are the "risks" of partaking of the gifts weekly?
Theosis.

ONLY when there is preparation. With preparation, go ahead, commune daily!
Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2009, 09:17:50 AM »

I NEVER said that frequent reception of Communion is a sacrilege. Frequent communion with proper preparation is certainly the ideal.

I'm afraid this doesn't work in Orthodoxy.
In the Divine Liturgy, just before Communion, the Priest lifts the Gifts and intones: "The Holies are for the Holy". To which we respond "One is Holy, One is the Lord Jesus Christ to the Glory of God the Father Amen." In other words we are admitting that we are not holy.

Should I remind you of I Corinthians 11: 27-32? I'm not going to quote it here for you. Please read it for yourself.

Logged
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2009, 09:20:31 AM »

They say that comparisons are odious, but from experience I can say that the grannies and elderly men in the parish who receive Communion only a few times a year and with intensive preparation seem to have many of the fruits and signs of an advanced spiritual life,

How does one judge people like this? How does one know who is "spiritually advanced" in Orthodoxy which is the hidden life?  How is parading piety a sign of "spiritual advancement"?

"By their fruits thou shalt know them..."

Sounds pretty explicit to me.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2009, 09:21:21 AM »

ONLY when there is preparation. With preparation, go ahead, commune daily!

I can agree with this. But I cannot agree that we must be "good and holy" as you suggested earlier in order to receive Communion. If we waited until we were "good and holy" we would never Commune! Communion is a medicine for not being good and holy. The Priest says when he gives us Communion: "The Servant of God (name) Communes to the forgiveness of sin and Eternal Life." Communion is for the forgiveness of sin, not a "reward" for being "sinlesss".
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2009, 09:31:08 AM »

"By their fruits thou shalt know them..."
You are mistaken if you think this is how we are to pass judgement on others. Our Lord says these words in the context of how we are to discern the false prophets and false teachers, not as a means of judging people generally:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.Therefore by their fruits you will know them."  (Matthew 7:15-20).
For example, if a "teacher" is causing strife and division in the Church, their fruit is bad and they are a false teacher. If you look at the beginning of the same chapter of Matthew, Our Lord explicitly commands us all not to judge anyone:
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." (Matthew 7:1-6)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 09:43:02 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2009, 09:57:53 AM »

The new practice of weekly Communion is only a few decades old.  It is too early to see what the final fruits of it will be. 
New? I seem to remember St. Paul saying, "As often as you meet together." Now, perhaps you want to argue that people did not meet together weekly before 1950. Even if that were true (and I'm not convinced it is), communing weekly would still not be a new practice, because then people have always communed as often as they met together. The only thing which has changed is that automobile ownership has allowed many more people to come to church and commune more frequently.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2009, 10:15:14 AM »

^ And again, why did the Church introduce the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts on weekdays during Lent?
Clearly we not only Communed weekly, we Communed daily.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2009, 10:27:57 AM »

For a normal week, I honour the fast on Wednesday and Friday and from after vespers Saturday until after reception of Communion. I prepare as best I can with prayer and examination of conscience. I go to confession weekly.

I feel blessed to receive the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ every week because I am a wretched sinner.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,606



« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2009, 11:10:01 AM »

ONLY when there is preparation. With preparation, go ahead, commune daily!

I can agree with this. But I cannot agree that we must be "good and holy" as you suggested earlier in order to receive Communion. If we waited until we were "good and holy" we would never Commune! Communion is a medicine for not being good and holy. The Priest says when he gives us Communion: "The Servant of God (name) Communes to the forgiveness of sin and Eternal Life." Communion is for the forgiveness of sin, not a "reward" for being "sinlesss".

Excellent distinction.

This problem is of long standing: I recall St. Ambrose complaining of infrequent communion, and St. Augustine speaks of his mother's daily communion.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2009, 11:16:39 AM »

They say that comparisons are odious, but from experience I can say that the grannies and elderly men in the parish who receive Communion only a few times a year and with intensive preparation seem to have many of the fruits and signs of an advanced spiritual life,

How does one judge people like this? How does one know who is "spiritually advanced" in Orthodoxy which is the hidden life?  How is parading piety a sign of "spiritual advancement"?
George,

You get a feel for things. I've been a priest for 30 years.  Over time you get to know the people in your parish quite well. 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:19:10 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2009, 11:21:58 AM »

I'm coming to a conclusion that the new calendar followers brag that they fast less and take communion regularly and some probably are not preparing themselves correctly,,and take communion because its something to do every Sunday...and they become lax ..now the old calendar people like me and others would prepare them self for a week knowing that not to prepare correctly can be dangerous....doesn't the catholic church have this problem receiving communion regularly and not preparing correctly..i read this on there own forum...God forbid we start imatating the catholic's and lose the awe and fear in recieving Holy Communion unprepared....

It would seem that those receiving frequently would have to be more diligent in preparing for communion than those receiving only occasionally.  After all, infrequent communion preceded by a week of fasting requires one to be vigilant and to prepare only occasionally.  Adequately preparing for frequent communion requires the observance of the regular weekly fasts week in and week out throughout the year.

Finally, what does what the Catholics do have to do with what we do?  Our practices should be driven by our goal of attaining theosis, not differing from Catholics out of vitriol and spite.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,436


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2009, 11:25:23 AM »

I would like this thread to stay on the theoretical and not turn personal, thanks. This is a general request for all parties.

Fr Anastasios
Administrator
Logged

Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.com

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,606



« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2009, 11:26:11 AM »

At the risk of sounding like an uneducated bafoon, what are the "risks" of partaking of the gifts weekly?

I think that we need a deeper investigation of why all the Orthodox observed a particular pattern of receiving Communion for 1,600 years. 

What "risks" do you see involved with Communion four or five times a year?   The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we can point to thousands of Saints who observed this pattern of communing.  In fact, apart from the first 300 years of martyrdom, it has been the ONLY pattern of communing.   

Why do people wish to abandon it in the 21st century?  What "evil" effects were associated with communing four times a year?   Was this not the period when the Church established itself in many countries,  brought entire nations to Christ, created thousands of monasteries whch gave us holy men and women in numbers which today we cannot even dream of.

Quote
Are there any writings that suggest otherwise?

Well, yes, you can run through books which speak of communing once a year.  You can find booklets from Athos from around 1900 which direct both monks and laity to commune once a year.

But above all, we have the unwavering tradition.  This is the greatest and most compelling of "writings."

Father, what is DL if no one is communing?

I remember going up in one parish and being told that it was a "no communion Sunday."  What was meaning then of, that "Send down Thy Holy Spirit upon us and these Gifts spread forth," that "In faith and love draw near."  And why did we sing "Let our mouths be filled with Thy praise O Lord,....For Thou hast made us worthy to partake of Thy holy, divine, immortal and life-creating Mysteries....?"

I've heard worse: someone told me of assisting at DL where no gifts were offered.

I would submit too, Father, that the nominalism that St. Simeon the New Theologian fought has a lot to do with this "praxis."  Does he speak of the frequency of communion?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:27:39 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2009, 11:34:57 AM »

The new practice of weekly Communion is only a few decades old.  It is too early to see what the final fruits of it will be. 
New? I seem to remember St. Paul saying, "As often as you meet together." Now, perhaps you want to argue that people did not meet together weekly before 1950. Even if that were true (and I'm not convinced it is), communing weekly would still not be a new practice, because then people have always communed as often as they met together. The only thing which has changed is that automobile ownership has allowed many more people to come to church and commune more frequently.

It's a different world in Europe.  Serbia is the country which I know.   Communion only a few times a year turns it into a very deep communal event.

One of THE major days when all the Church receives Communion is the first Saturday of the Great Fast.   People have fasted and prepared during the first week and been to Confession.  On the Saturday morning (I am thinking of our monastery) all the huge chalices have been brought out and and cleaned.  Some hold almost 2 litres.   People begin to arrive. Soon it turns into a torrent,  as people come down from the hills and surrounding villages.   Even the monastery's hermits who live in small dwellings in the nearby hills and commune infrequently make an appearance.  All the priests in the monastery are exhausted from hearing so many Confessions and weary also from the rigours of the first week of fasting.  Many have not eaten the entire week.  All of them must assist in distributing Holy Communion.

One of the wonderful things about these experiences is the strong sense of spiritual community it generates.... we all know that we had fasted together through the previous week and then we were all united to Christ and we felt, kind of tangibly almost, that we were united to one another through Holy Communion.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2009, 11:39:42 AM »

I recall St. Ambrose complaining of infrequent communion, and St. Augustine speaks of his mother's daily communion.

Exactly! This was the practice of the Ancient Church, and is the reason we have the Liturgy of the Presanctified during weekdays of Lent.
Infrequent Communion is misguided and based on a patently false piety. To abstain from Communion means that we are not properly prepared for it- wouldn't true Orthodox piety mean that we should be always ready to receive Communion? Infrequent Communion therefore is not piety, but a mark of impiety.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,076


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2009, 11:39:48 AM »

It is imposible to reduce preparation for Communion to a matter of "what is required" since every individual may have different advice from his or her spiritual father. 

So you will not answer the question directly.  I think I have proved my point.

Quote
Checked with a young priest who graduated three years ago.  The answer is, Yes.  That is the expected norm.  But he has authority to vary it for individual parishioners.

In other words, it is not a "requirement".  

Quote
In other words, the clergy receive some kind of mysterious blagodatz once they are ordained deacon that the laity do not have in order to be "allowed" to waive this "requirement."  I would call this clericalism of the worst kind.

Quote
That's the way you would call it?  Unfortunate, but you have the right to see it as you like.   It has been the practice of all the Orthodox Churches for centuries past though.

This is exactly what it is.  Clericalism, pure and simple.  This is not Christian.  The clergy do not have some kind of special grace that "allows" them to commune at every liturgy, wheras the lesser beings known as laity must commune only between once and four times a year.  Your fuzzy "oh what a shame it is that you see it this way" answer is no answer at all.  Neither is your oft-repeated mantra that it has been the practice for years.  Case closed.

Quote
Frequent communion, every three or four weeks, is the norm for our converts. 

I would see communing once every three weeks as a bare minimum for laity to strive for, not "frequent communion", as you call it.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:45:45 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2009, 11:58:50 AM »

This problem is of long standing: I recall St. Ambrose complaining of infrequent communion, and St. Augustine speaks of his mother's daily communion.

I don't have the source, but I remember reading something by St. Basil the Great that encouraged people to receive at least twice a week.

Then there's also that canon (don't have time to look it up right now), which calls for the excommunication of anyone who does not Commune for a period of three weeks.
Logged
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,076


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2009, 11:59:03 AM »

[You have seen that Irish Hermit did not reply that the Patriarch would tell me that such a burdensome fasting regimen is a requirement.  This is because he knows full well that His Holiness would not take such a position. 
 

Your assesment of the reason for my response time is wrong!  Don't be impatient!   Smiley

1.  I live in a time zone which is about 16 hours ahead of yours.  Our sleep times and active times are out of whack.

2.  There *are* other things to do in the day than play with the computer (although I enjoy that immensely.)

and 3,  you will see that I have now replied, up above. 

Wrong.  I received your first obfuscating answer and then made these comments.

Quote
Elpidophorus expressed it very well:

"The reality is the one week fasting is standard in serbian church,but still has room for oikonomia.
I think His Beatitude would say that the one week fasting is normal but everyone should discuss with his SF for his/her own status."

You are intentionally muddying the waters by introducing this fabrication of "oikonomia" and the red herring of  pastoral sensitivity elsewhere in your posts.  You cannot give dispensation to do something that was and is the normal practice!  The dispensation should be given for the reverse, ie, to go to communion only four times a year!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:59:39 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2009, 12:03:28 PM »

It is imposible to reduce preparation for Communion to a matter of "what is required" since every individual may have different advice from his or her spiritual father. 

So you will not answer the question directly.  I think I have proved my point.

Your question is:  "If I asked his Holiness Patriarch Pavle of this, would he say that such a fast is "required", as you put it?"

I cannot read the mind of His Holiness but I believe he would.

Why do I believe this?

1. The entire country observes such a fast and has done so for centuries

2.  It is taught in the seminary/faculty in Belgrade close to His Holiness' residence.

3.  It is taught to the seminarians at the Prizren seminary where His Holiness used to be bishop.

4.  If His Holiness wished to change this ancient manner of his people preparing for Holy Communion, he would have done something about it, especially with the seminary training of young priests.

 
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2009, 12:08:27 PM »

It is imposible to reduce preparation for Communion to a matter of "what is required" since every individual may have different advice from his or her spiritual father. 

So you will not answer the question directly.  I think I have proved my point.

Quote
Checked with a young priest who graduated three years ago.  The answer is, Yes.  That is the expected norm.  But he has authority to vary it for individual parishioners.

In other words, it is not a "requirement".  

Quote
In other words, the clergy receive some kind of mysterious blagodatz once they are ordained deacon that the laity do not have in order to be "allowed" to waive this "requirement."  I would call this clericalism of the worst kind.

Quote
That's the way you would call it?  Unfortunate, but you have the right to see it as you like.   It has been the practice of all the Orthodox Churches for centuries past though.

This is exactly what it is.  Clericalism, pure and simple.  This is not Christian.  The clergy do not have some kind of special grace that "allows" them to commune at every liturgy, wheras the lesser beings known as laity must commune only between once and four times a year.  Your fuzzy "oh what a shame it is that you see it this way" answer is no answer at all.  Neither is your oft-repeated mantra that it has been the practice for years.  Case closed.

Quote
Frequent communion, every three or four weeks, is the norm for our converts. 

I would see communing once every three weeks as a bare minimum for laity to strive for, not "frequent communion", as you call it.



Pravoslavbob,

I cannot reply to the rest of your message.  I see that we live in two different worlds.  I can repect those who practise frequent Communion (although I do not see it as a necessity) but you have nothing but scorn for those who wish to maintain the older tradition of the Church which has guided her for hundreds of years.  I cannot deal with this level of contempt for the Church's tradition.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2009, 12:11:22 PM »

but you have nothing but scorn for those who wish to maintain the older tradition of the Church which has guided her for hundreds of years.  I cannot deal with this level of contempt for the Church's tradition.

The "Older Tradition" of the Church is daily Communion (as repeatedly evidenced by various posters in this thread), not infrequent Communion. Infrequent Communion is an innovation.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #76 on: February 06, 2009, 12:13:21 PM »

[You have seen that Irish Hermit did not reply that the Patriarch would tell me that such a burdensome fasting regimen is a requirement.  This is because he knows full well that His Holiness would not take such a position. 
 

Your assesment of the reason for my response time is wrong!  Don't be impatient!   Smiley

1.  I live in a time zone which is about 16 hours ahead of yours.  Our sleep times and active times are out of whack.

2.  There *are* other things to do in the day than play with the computer (although I enjoy that immensely.)

and 3,  you will see that I have now replied, up above. 

Wrong.  I received your first obfuscating answer and then made these comments.

How very insulting you can be!  I made no "obfuscating" answer.   My entire purpose in this thread has been an attempt to explain things and not to cause obfuscation.

Why is there this level of anger and umbrage among those who desire to force weekly or daily Communion on the Church?    Does infrequent Communion threaten you in some way?  I just do not understand. 
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #77 on: February 06, 2009, 12:17:53 PM »

Does infrequent Communion threaten you in some way?  I just do not understand. 

No one is condemning anyone for practicing infrequent Communion, but teaching that it is a "requirement" or "tradition" of the Orthodox Church is heresy and misleading.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #78 on: February 06, 2009, 12:22:58 PM »

All posters are reminded of this post by the administrator of the forum:

I would like this thread to stay on the theoretical and not turn personal, thanks. This is a general request for all parties.

Fr Anastasios
Administrator

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2009, 12:24:06 PM »

The "Older Tradition" of the Church is daily Communion (as repeatedly evidenced by various posters in this thread), not infrequent Communion. Infrequent Communion is an innovation.

That's not quite accurate , you know.  The older tradition of the Church was that believers gathered to break bread ansd listen to the apostolic teaching ONCE a week, on a Saturday night or early Sunday morning (Sunday being a regular work day in those days.)

We have no evidence that, for example, the Christians in Jerusalem or Rome gathered every morning to celebrate the Eucharist and commune.  We know that in some places, where persecution made gathering especially dangerous, Christians would take Communion home from the eucharistic gatherings but where is the evidence that they made use of this every day?
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2009, 12:26:08 PM »

Why is there this level of anger and umbrage among those who desire to force weekly or daily Communion on the Church?    Does infrequent Communion threaten you in some way?  I just do not understand. 
Bless Father,

I must admit--when I was a catechumen, I attended a Church (in America) which practices the 1-4 times per year tradition. When the priest opened the Royal Doors and approached with the chalice, no one came forward. I was devastated! But I now understand that there are different traditions. I appreciate that you respect the practice of those who commune frequently and infrequently. I also have noticed a level of anger and umbrage on this forum as of late (especially geared toward you) and I am greatly saddened to see it.

Kissing your right hand,
Mickey
Logged
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,076


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2009, 12:32:55 PM »

I am not sure if we can encapsulate our history so easily and then simply throw it away.

From around 350 AD to around 1950 AD the Orthodox Churches followed a certain pattern of preparation for Holy Communion.

In other words we are looking at a 1,600 old tradition.  This is virtually the entire span of the existence of the Church.

We cannot just throw it away so glibly.

I do not see how a tradition which has spanned the life of the Church can be labelled "degenerate" or "a deviation" or erroneous"  as people have labelled it here.

We have seen the fruits of this pattern of receiving Communion - the thousands upon thousands of Saints in our holy Church.

The new practice of weekly Communion is only a few decades old.  It is too early to see what the final fruits of it will be. 

Those who want to follow the new ways should not lash out at those who adhere to the old ways or think of them as stupid or uneducated or "behind the times."     They *are* the ones in tune with all their ancestors and the Saints.   

Someone said that the two ways are incompatible.  If that is true and we are forced to choose just one way then let us continue to adhere to the authentic tradition of our Church.   


Your kind of thinking represents the worst kind of traditionalist posturing current in the Orthodox Church today.  (And believe me, I know that there are problems on the other end of the Orthodox spectrum, so please don't use this as a way to deflect the thrust of my argument.)  It is anti-intellectual, anti-historical, and obtusely incorrigible in its unwillingness to admit that the traditions of men can poison the Church.  You seem ready to deem any bizarre practice to be "holy" if it has been practiced for a certain amount of time, no matter what the evidence to the contrary might be.   (Myself and many others have posted ample evidence here, so I will not repeat it.)   You elevate the corrupt practices of men to the status of Holy Tradition and dress them up with all kinds of pious words about how revered these practices are.  This is indefensible.  

Your oft-repeated claims that the practice of infreqent communion has created many thousands of saints is not substantiated by any evidence.  Any saints that were deacons, priests, hieromonks, hierodeacons, or bishops were sure to have communed frequently.   As for the others, thank God that His Grace is at work in the Church despite the best efforts of men to destroy the very fabric of the Church Herself.   If it were up to men, the Church would have been destroyed eons ago.  But thank God that He has promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against Her.  What a travesty it is that the very great Mystery that constitutes the Church, that makes Her what She is, is denied to Her members weekly around the globe!

You have disingenuously mixed up pastoral sensitivity in your argument as to why infrequent communion should be considered a pious practice.  This has nothing to do with it.  The pastoral thing to do would be to gently encourage people to commune more frequently, and to gently and lovingly integrate this return to genuine Christian practice over a period of time.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 12:46:44 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #82 on: February 06, 2009, 12:33:56 PM »

Does infrequent Communion threaten you in some way?  I just do not understand. 

No one is condemning anyone for practicing infrequent Communion, but teaching that it is a "requirement" or "tradition" of the Orthodox Church is heresy and misleading.

In that case, much of Orthodoxy has been in heresy for many centuries.

My own spiritual father would be a heretic since he would never allow the monks to go to communion more than a maximum of five times a year (once during each fast, and once on your Nameday.)

In particular you are, unwittingly I am sure, accusing the holy Serbian Church of being in heresy.   Very few priests will give Communion to people outside of the four annual fasting periods.  There are a few exceptions in some city parishes.

I heartily recommend that people take the opportunity to visit the home countries of Orthodoxy and see at first hand the traditional ways of preparing for Holy Communion.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #83 on: February 06, 2009, 12:37:16 PM »

That's not quite accurate , you know.  The older tradition of the Church was that believers gathered to break bread ansd listen to the apostolic teaching ONCE a week, on a Saturday night or early Sunday morning (Sunday being a regular work day in those days.)

We have no evidence that, for example, the Christians in Jerusalem or Rome gathered every morning to celebrate the Eucharist and commune.  We know that in some places, where persecution made gathering especially dangerous, Christians would take Communion home from the eucharistic gatherings but where is the evidence that they made use of this every day?

This is incorrect.
We have plenty of evidence that the Church originally practiced daily Communion.
In his Confessions, St. Augustine states that his mother (St. Monica) practiced daily Communion (a fact mentioned on this thread). We also have the witness of the fact that the Liturgy of the Presanctified was appointed to be celebrated on the weekdays of Lent so that the Faithful could Commune on days when the Divine Liturgy was not celebrated (a fact mentioned twice on this thread).
Also, St. Symeon the New Theologian tried to bring back the Ancient Tradition of daily Communion in the Church (Source)
Infrequent Communion is therefore an innovation and the ancient practice of the Orthodox Church was daily (not weekly) Communion.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Online Online

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 35,606



« Reply #84 on: February 06, 2009, 12:54:37 PM »

Does infrequent Communion threaten you in some way?  I just do not understand. 

No one is condemning anyone for practicing infrequent Communion, but teaching that it is a "requirement" or "tradition" of the Orthodox Church is heresy and misleading.

In that case, much of Orthodoxy has been in heresy for many centuries.

My own spiritual father would be a heretic since he would never allow the monks to go to communion more than a maximum of five times a year (once during each fast, and once on your Nameday.)

No disrespect intended, Father, but then did he have Typikon services outside the Fasting periods?

Quote
In particular you are, unwittingly I am sure, accusing the holy Serbian Church of being in heresy.   Very few priests will give Communion to people outside of the four annual fasting periods.  There are a few exceptions in some city parishes.

I can't see the justification of this if a Divine Liturgy of Basil or more so St. John is being celebrated.

Quote
I heartily recommend that people take the opportunity to visit the home countries of Orthodoxy and see at first hand the traditional ways of preparing for Holy Communion.

I seem to recall in Egypt and Palestine that Communion was given every DL.  In Syria usually you had to go and as for it after DL.  But then, these are areas where Sunday is a workday and going to Church can get you killed.

That's not quite accurate , you know.  The older tradition of the Church was that believers gathered to break bread ansd listen to the apostolic teaching ONCE a week, on a Saturday night or early Sunday morning (Sunday being a regular work day in those days.)

We have no evidence that, for example, the Christians in Jerusalem or Rome gathered every morning to celebrate the Eucharist and commune.  We know that in some places, where persecution made gathering especially dangerous, Christians would take Communion home from the eucharistic gatherings but where is the evidence that they made use of this every day?

This is incorrect.
We have plenty of evidence that the Church originally practiced daily Communion.
In his Confessions, St. Augustine states that his mother (St. Monica) practiced daily Communion (a fact mentioned on this thread). We also have the witness of the fact that the Liturgy of the Presanctified was appointed to be celebrated on the weekdays of Lent so that the Faithful could Commune on days when the Divine Liturgy was not celebrated (a fact mentioned twice on this thread).
Also, St. Symeon the New Theologian tried to bring back the Ancient Tradition of daily Communion in the Church (Source)
Infrequent Communion is therefore an innovation and the ancient practice of the Orthodox Church was daily (not weekly) Communion.

I would point also to the origin of the antidoron: people used to be given the Eucharist to take home and consume during the week.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 12:56:56 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #85 on: February 06, 2009, 01:01:34 PM »

Here is a quote from Heiromonk Patapios of the Holy Mountain:

"‘There is no difference between someone not being born at all and someone dying of hunger after being born.’ For the authors of an eighteenth-century treatise on frequent communion – the translation of which forms the major part of this volume – the then, as now, widespread practice of infrequent communion was largely a matter of ‘superstitions and prejudices’. To abstain from Holy Communion, whether out of piety or laxity, was an evil and pernicious custom, one which in effect negates our baptism and separates us from what should be (but generally is not) our ‘daily bread’, the very Body and Blood of the Lord. ‘When one partakes of Divine Communion, the entire God-Man enters like a sun and becomes intermingled and blended with the entire man. He illumines, brightens, and sanctifies all the powers and senses of man’s soul and body, and transforms him from corruption into incorruption.’ To cut oneself off voluntarily from such deifying grace must, surely, be seen as both incomprehensible and indefensible."


"Manna from Athos: The Issue of Frequent Communion on the Holy Mountain in the Late Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries". By Hieromonk Patapios and Archbishop Chrysostomos. Oxford: Peter Lang, 2006. p187
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #86 on: February 06, 2009, 01:01:45 PM »

We have plenty of evidence that the Church originally practiced daily Communion.

This was a practice of the Church in Carthage but it was not the universal practice there either.  It was not the practice of either Rome or the East (the Greeks.)

Quote
In his Confessions, St. Augustine states that his mother (St. Monica) practiced daily Communion

St. Augustine's letter to Januarius, giving the custom of the Church of Carthage...

"Some receive daily the Body and Blood of the Lord, others receive it on certain days; in some places no day is omitted in the offering of the Holy Sacrifice, in others it is offered only on Saturday and Sunday, or even only on Sunday; and as to other such differences as may be noted, there is freedom in all these matters, and there is no better rule for the earnest and prudent Christian than to act as he sees the Church act wherever he is staying."

Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #87 on: February 06, 2009, 01:06:12 PM »

"Some receive daily the Body and Blood of the Lord, others receive it on certain days; in some places no day is omitted in the offering of the Holy Sacrifice, in others it is offered only on Saturday and Sunday, or even only on Sunday; and as to other such differences as may be noted, there is freedom in all these matters, and there is no better rule for the earnest and prudent Christian than to act as he sees the Church act wherever he is staying."

You seem to miss the point.
St. Augustine is talking about the frequency of the offering of the Divine Liturgy. He says in some places it is daily, in others only on weekends. But the assumption is that all Christians will Commune at the Divine Liturgy when it is offered.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #88 on: February 06, 2009, 01:10:59 PM »

My own spiritual father would be a heretic since he would never allow the monks to go to communion more than a maximum of five times a year (once during each fast, and once on your Nameday.)

Quote
No disrespect intended, Father, but then did he have Typikon services outside the Fasting periods?.

Liturgy was served every day in the monastery,  The officiating priest communed.

Likewise in the bishop's church in the nearby city of Kraljevo, Liturgy was served every day.  Most usually only the officiating priest communed.  Ditto for those parishes which have a daily Liturgy.

It is the same in the Athonite monasteries - Liturgy is served every day whether or not there are any other communicants beside the officiating priest (and deacon.)

I was altarbor for Bishop (Patriarch) Pavle in the cathedral at Prizren for two weeks during the Great Fast.  Presanctified was served every weekday by His Holiness himself.  It was attended by all 40 of the seminary students every morning.  Nobody communed.  Only Bishop Pavle and any priests serving with him.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #89 on: February 06, 2009, 01:11:48 PM »

But I now understand that there are different traditions.

The ancient tradition of the Orthodox Church is frequent Communion and nothing else. There is no room for "variety of practice" in this. A Christian should Commune frequently. Period.

"To abstain from Holy Communion, whether out of piety or laxity, was an evil and pernicious custom, one which in effect negates our baptism and separates us from what should be (but generally is not) our ‘daily bread’, the very Body and Blood of the Lord."(source)
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Tags: communion fasting 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.166 seconds with 73 queries.