OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 27, 2014, 07:02:10 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is It Necessary to Abstain from Meat for One Week Before Communion?  (Read 19480 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #135 on: February 06, 2009, 08:28:42 PM »

Thank you, Elpidophoros, it is useful to know the actual practices (3 days fast) of the parish to which you belong?    I guess it is a Greek parish?

Also thanks for pointing out that the Kolyvades want a 3 day fast before Communion.  This had completely slipped my mind in the hurly burly of the thread.



I respect deeply those who keep one week xerophagy for agion potirion .
I should to confess that ,the " One Week Xerophagy"is not the normal pactice in my jurisdiction. We learnt that the standard requirement is "trimeron xerophagy(three days)". We were taught that this is the tradition of kolyvades fathers——it's proved in the post of Fr.Athanasios.
So,for the people who want receive weekly on sunday:he should keep xerophagy on Thursday Friday and Saturday.Friday is fast day anyway.So every week he keep two days xerophagy more. If he chose to receive on Saturday,he keep xerophagy on WednesdayThursday Friday,only one day xerophagy more.
I think this is why those who want more frequent communion usually partake on Saturday.(other reason: saturday liturgy is more early and short,so they can break their fast early——somebody could get problem without water till midday).

So,in our humble local traditon,the requirements for Holy Communion are:
1,Blessing from SF
2,Awareness of the efimerios(he should be informed at least in order to cut the amnos in proper size)
3,Trimeron-xerophagy(three days to Abstain from oil and wine etc....)
4,Metaleipseos prayer(3psalms+1canon+10prayers)
5,Fasting(from any food or water)from midnight

These are "normal requirements ". No confession be required everytime, but the blessing of SF figures that the one be blessed to receive is in a healthy spiritual status according to his SF.
Of course the  "normal requirements "are flexible. For instance: use Jesus Prayer in the place of metaleipseos; Make more prostrations instead of one or two days' xerophagy......depends on SF and personal situation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I did not get point of some advocators of "frequent reception".
Abandon Mysteries is bad,yes ,we agree.....
Frequent reception is good ,yes,we agree....

Then? How about preparation? If you guys think ebdomo-xerophagy is too much,Ok,let's keep trimeron.If you say trimeron also is too much as a general rule,then I got hamenos totally.So how do we prepare? Deep breathing and get relax???

Logged
SakranMM
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 327

Most Holy Theotokos, save us!


« Reply #136 on: February 06, 2009, 08:32:23 PM »

Irish Hermit:

We can't pretend that we're in 16th century Moscow or 11th century Constantinople.  The Church is not stagnant.  With that said, it's not revisionism I'm advocating - if anything, those that only communion once, twice, or four times a year are the revisionists.  Communing this infrequently demands extensive preparation, like a one-week fast.

Just because the Russian or Serbian church has been fasting a week before communion for three or four centuries doesn't make it right!  How in the world does fasting from meat for a week, a 3-4 minute confession, then saying a few prayers, make you worthy of communion?  As if anything makes you worthy!  This kind of thing is "yia-yia-ology"...old women passing this kind of thing on to their kids without having any clue why the church does it, other than that's what their yia-yia taught them.

If you noticed in my original post, I don't advocate minimalist preparation.  Yes, fasting is essential.  Prayer is essential.  But you absolutely cannot separate communion from normal life.  Communion is meant to sanctify life, not separate us from it.

In terms of Eucharistic participation, until the 4th cent., the presupposition was that all baptized Christians were worthy to receive communion, and everybody would receive unless they were under penitential restriction.  Just read the text of the liturgy - it presupposes that everyone present will commune.  It's the saddest thing in the world when the priest brings the chalice out, and no one approaches.

After the 4th century, the above supposition is turned on its head, and the Christian was seen as unworthy to receive communion; this was especially strong in monastic circles.


I can't speak for what every single individual Christian was doing in Antioch, Moscow, or Constantinople for that matter.  But what I can say is that this excessive kind of preparation is linked directly to the reasons which I gave before.  It's a result of people beginning to see communion as simply a means of individual grace and sanctification instead of linking directly with corporate membership in the Church as understood in the New Testament.

This kind of thinking isn't "Schmemannite" or "modern."  This line of thinking is in continuation with the tradition of the Church, the text of the liturgy, and the Holy Fathers.  The abuse is abstaining from communion all year, fasting for a week and going to a 3 minute confession, declaring yourself worthy to commune, then going back to your original unworthy state 2 seconds later.  This is not what Christ intended. This is not what the liturgy presupposes.  Read the texts of it.

True preparation is continual Christian life.  Excessive preparation leads one to spiritual pride, thinking that what they do makes them worthy, rather than simply the mercy of God.  Prepare for communion - yes.  Do so with spiritual pride - no.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 08:38:14 PM by SakranMM » Logged

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..."
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #137 on: February 06, 2009, 08:40:32 PM »

The problem with citing the 3rd century practice is that these people were living under persecution, were a focused community, etc.  The move away from frequent communion coincided with the influx of the masses.  It was not something that happened as late as the 11th or 16th centuries.

Again, if someone is keeping all the fasts, their prayer rule, etc., along with reading the prescribed communion prayers and attending the Vespers/Vigil, then fine, I think they can and should receive communion often without keeping the 3 day fast....

...But I'd have to say in my experience many if not most people are not doing this regularly.
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #138 on: February 06, 2009, 09:15:57 PM »

I have to respectfully disagree with you here.  In all of the early texts - Acts, and the Didache, for example, weekly communion (at least 1x per week) is the absolute norm.

This practice of communion 4x a year or less is the more recent development, and I consider it to be a departure from early tradition, due to the factors I alluded to in my earlier post.[/color]

Is is still hard to believe that people here have no real appreciation for Church tradition but want to ignore what their Church has been doing for centuries and jump back to what they imagine was happening in the first century  -  where?  in Rome? Jerusalem?  Athens?  Antioch?  This is the kind of revisionism which we find in Fr Schmemman - let's get rid of our church vestments and wear our street clothes in the Altar because this is what the Apostles and the clergy of the first century Church were wearing.


Dear Father, Please see my post above (Reply #126 in response to yours), as I would hesitate to think that I imagined those things which I put forward as points for your consideration.

Thank you!

Kissing your right hand,
Presbytera Mari
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,448



« Reply #139 on: February 06, 2009, 10:54:05 PM »

I respect deeply those who keep one week xerophagy for agion potirion .
I should to confess that ,the " One Week Xerophagy"is not the normal pactice in my jurisdiction. We learnt that the standard requirement is "trimeron xerophagy(three days)". We were taught that this is the tradition of kolyvades fathers——it's proved in the post of Fr.Athanasios.
So,for the people who want receive weekly on sunday:he should keep xerophagy on Thursday Friday and Saturday.Friday is fast day anyway.So every week he keep two days xerophagy more. If he chose to receive on Saturday,he keep xerophagy on WednesdayThursday Friday,only one day xerophagy more.
I think this is why those who want more frequent communion usually partake on Saturday.(other reason: saturday liturgy is more early and short,so they can break their fast early——somebody could get problem without water till midday).

So,in our humble local traditon,the requirements for Holy Communion are:
1,Blessing from SF
2,Awareness of the efimerios(he should be informed at least in order to cut the amnos in proper size)
3,Trimeron-xerophagy(three days to Abstain from oil and wine etc....)
4,Metaleipseos prayer(3psalms+1canon+10prayers)
5,Fasting(from any food or water)from midnight

These are "normal requirements ". No confession be required everytime, but the blessing of SF figures that the one be blessed to receive is in a healthy spiritual status according to his SF.
Of course the  "normal requirements "are flexible. For instance: use Jesus Prayer in the place of metaleipseos; Make more prostrations instead of one or two days' xerophagy......depends on SF and personal situation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I did not get point of some advocators of "frequent reception".
Abandon Mysteries is bad,yes ,we agree.....
Frequent reception is good ,yes,we agree....

Then? How about preparation? If you guys think ebdomo-xerophagy is too much,Ok,let's keep trimeron.If you say trimeron also is too much as a general rule,then I got hamenos totally.So how do we prepare? Deep breathing and get relax???


Just as a side question, where are you, Elpidophoros?  For someone Chinese, you use an awful lot of Greek in your English.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,541


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #140 on: February 07, 2009, 01:00:38 AM »

Why doesn't everybody just ask their own priest?

Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,063



« Reply #141 on: February 07, 2009, 01:19:31 AM »

Why doesn't everybody just ask their own priest?



Thank you Salpy!  Amen!! 
Logged

Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,189


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #142 on: February 07, 2009, 03:40:50 AM »

I haven't read all of these posts, but I will try to eventually. Being new to Orthodoxy, I am very interested to know more about preparation and protocol for Communion. When I asked my Priest why most people at the Church did not take Communion, he said that this was a problem. He said that in our Ethiopian Orthodox Church there is too much fear about judgment coming to those who take Communion but still have some sin in their life. So, who of us is without sin, and thus Ethiopians abstain from the sacraments out of a paralyzing fear. At least this is what the Priest told me, and he viewed it as a problem that needed to be corrected. But I told him that it was better to have that problem than to have the people casually receive the sacraments without self-examination and repentance (as is the case in many Protestant Churches.) But to my understanding, the Archdeacon told me that I must fast from midnight in order to recive Communion, and that I must attend the entire Liturgy from 7:00 a.m. We only make it to the Church a few times a year, because it is seven hours away.  So, I do observe this rule because I definitely desire to receive the Mysteries if I travel that far. But this is all I know so far.
Selam
Logged

"If you stop to throw stones at every dog that barks at you along the way, you will never reach your goal." [Turkish Proverb]
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #143 on: February 07, 2009, 06:13:08 AM »

i rather take Holy communion Once or twice or four times a year worthily than approach every sunday unworthily.....some orthodox churches are following the latin example of monthly confession as well  .....people can fall into a trap thinking there sins are tiny minor and they approach holy communion unconfessed....

You seem to miss the point also. No one is suggesting that we receive Communion unprepared. What we are discussing here is what is the ancient tradition of the Orthodox Church, and the ancient tradition of the Orthodox Church is frequent Communion.
bstaining from Communion is not a "pious" practice, but a superstition which damages our spiritual health.

I repeat:
"To abstain from Holy Communion, whether out of piety or laxity, was an evil and pernicious custom, one which in effect negates our baptism and separates us from what should be (but generally is not) our ‘daily bread’, the very Body and Blood of the Lord."(source)[/i]

The Fathers of the Holy Mountain have tried to reintroduce this ancient tradition:
" Indeed, the Kollyvades  Fathers, who advocated a return to frequent communion, were regarded as dangerous innovators in the face of such unenlightened customs passing as tradition, when in fact they were simply pleading for a restoration of the age-old practice of the Church."
Source "A Traditionalist Critique of The Orthodox Church"- Heromonk Patapios

It is not "Orthodox" to abstain from Communion.



I understand exactly what your saying but in my mind i can't seperate frequent and recieving unprepared ....im used to week preperation for the Holy Gifts maybe 4 or 5 times a year..that how i was raised...taught
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,053


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #144 on: February 07, 2009, 09:28:07 AM »

I understand exactly what your saying but in my mind i can't seperate frequent and recieving unprepared ....im used to week preperation for the Holy Gifts maybe 4 or 5 times a year..that how i was raised...taught

Those of us who support frequent communion are trying to get to the point where people are living their lives as best they can, always being prepared not only for communion, but for the dread Judgment Day.  We're striving for general holiness, not an intense burst a few times per year; we want to try and be holy just as He is Holy, asking Him to perfect our imperfect actions and intentions, and pleading that He accept our meager sacrifice as worthy of Him out of His compassion and mercy for us, not out of the inherent worthiness (which is zero) of the offering.

Supporting the fasts of the Church, praying, giving alms, asking forgiveness of those whom we may have wronged - this should be a regular practice of all Christians at all times; seeing a spiritual father regularly (2-6 times a year, maybe more, depending on your relationship; one should not feel totally 'independent,' but at the same time one should not be 'mindlessly dependent,' either) should happen regardless of frequency of reception of the Holy Mysteries.  Saying the prayers of preparation the evening before and morning of are useful and beneficial; but they'll be even more effective if they're part of a regular prayer routine.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Elpidophoros
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: OX
Posts: 292



« Reply #145 on: February 07, 2009, 10:59:18 AM »

Thank you, Elpidophoros, it is useful to know the actual practices (3 days fast) of the parish to which you belong?    I guess it is a Greek parish?
Father bless!
I saw here some people have a morbid prejudice toward certain traditions,so I'll not reveal my parish and make it target of attack.
Our jurisdiction is EP, and I want to say that,as far as I saw,the"trimeron xerophagy" is a standard teaching in most parishes in the Church of Greece and Cyprus.
Maybe someone want to argue with me about that.Yes I know in many "greek parishes" do not observe it strictly.But it's oikonomia or barely bad habit.Just like many "greek papades" omit all litanies and prayers between evangelion and cheroubikon(some read them secretly during apostolos or even trisagion).Yes,they do this,by good word it's "oikonomia" ;by bad word,you can say it's a liturgical abuse.But even the same priests who do this,dare not call this practice standard or official.
In Hellas and Cyprus even in the most "lax" parish in which the same folk and papas who do not keep trimeron xerophagy ,dare not claim that the trimeron or metaleipseos are excrescent ,unnecessary or optional.They will tell you that for some reasons they do not follow it exactly,but dare not treat the established rule and traditon as stupid things or even cacodoxy......
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 11:06:36 AM by Elpidophoros » Logged
Elpidophoros
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: OX
Posts: 292



« Reply #146 on: February 07, 2009, 11:03:26 AM »

For someone Chinese, you use an awful lot of Greek in your English.

Those words are "ecclesiastical" rather than "greek",right?( like 'epitrachelion','phelonion'...klp...)
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,404



« Reply #147 on: February 07, 2009, 11:19:21 AM »

The new practice of weekly Communion is only a few decades old.  It is too early to see what the final fruits of it will be. 
New? I seem to remember St. Paul saying, "As often as you meet together." Now, perhaps you want to argue that people did not meet together weekly before 1950. Even if that were true (and I'm not convinced it is), communing weekly would still not be a new practice, because then people have always communed as often as they met together. The only thing which has changed is that automobile ownership has allowed many more people to come to church and commune more frequently.

Historically the obligation was to attend church every week, no matter what church. Even if one didn't partake, one attended; and from medieval times on, most people came, but most people didn't partake. In other words, most people came to seem communion offered. One even finds RC manuals stating that the job of the laity in the liturgy was to watch.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,894


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #148 on: February 07, 2009, 11:41:47 AM »

For someone Chinese, you use an awful lot of Greek in your English.

Those words are "ecclesiastical" rather than "greek",right?( like 'epitrachelion','phelonion'...klp...)
Well, isn't the word "ecclesiastical" itself a Greek word?  Derived from εκκλησία (ekklesia), which is Greek for "church".  I imagine, then, that most of the words we deem ecclesiastical are Greek in origin. Wink
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 11:47:09 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,509


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #149 on: February 07, 2009, 07:28:01 PM »

I thought you had to have approval from your priest and approval of the priest at the parish you visit in order to have communion. If that is the case wouldn't you ask what the requirements are for a given parish and follow them? It seems like an issue of respect to me. I don't take off my shoes as I enter my house. But I have friends that do so at their homes. So when I visit their house I take off my shoes as I enter. But that doesn't mean that I have to change my practice at my own home.
Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #150 on: February 07, 2009, 07:43:16 PM »

For someone Chinese, you use an awful lot of Greek in your English.

Those words are "ecclesiastical" rather than "greek",right?( like 'epitrachelion','phelonion'...klp...)

They're ecclesiastical if there's no English word that's equivalent or refers to the same thing; they're Greek if there is.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,018



« Reply #151 on: February 07, 2009, 08:19:05 PM »

Here's a translation from an American born Greek speaker, but not literate in Greek, of the Greek phonetics in Reply # 145.  All the terms are ecclesiastical terminology which does translate into the English language.

"trimeron xerophagy"  The 3 day (dry) fast.  (My note:  A GOAA priest taught that this practice emanates from when the Kolivades movement was taking place in Greece, they preached following the annual guide to fasting (lenten periods, Wed. & Fri., other special fast days called for on the ecclesiastical calendar) and receipt of Communion at every Liturgy; weekly attendance.  In order to address the practice they confronted of fasting and communing 4 times annually, they recommended fasting, once, for 3 days, prior to returning to weekly communal participation.)

"oikonomia,"  economy.

"papdes," priests

"evangelio,"  The Gospel Reading

"cheroubikon," The Cherubic Hymn

"metalepseos"  I'm not sure about the exact translation, but it refers to the receipt of Communion.  It is used in the formal name of the "Communion of the Apostles" Icon.

"cocodoxy" This is not a term I've ever encountered, but "caco"="bad" (Orthodoxy) "glory," seems to be what the writer may be attempting to refer to.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 08:25:51 PM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #152 on: February 08, 2009, 09:40:58 AM »

Those of us who support frequent communion are trying to get to the point where people are living their lives as best they can, always being prepared not only for communion, but for the dread Judgment Day. 
Exactly. If we are not prepared for Holy Communion, then we are not prepared to face the Dreadful Judgement Seat of Christ either.

I thought you had to have approval from your priest and approval of the priest at the parish you visit in order to have communion. If that is the case wouldn't you ask what the requirements are for a given parish and follow them? It seems like an issue of respect to me. I don't take off my shoes as I enter my house. But I have friends that do so at their homes. So when I visit their house I take off my shoes as I enter. But that doesn't mean that I have to change my practice at my own home.
I don't think it's as simple as that. This is not about "different practices" which no doubt obviously exist, what it is about is: "what is the teaching of the Orthodox Church? Does the Church advocate frequent Communion or infrequent Communion?" If a week's fasting is a "requirement" then clearly, to Commune weekly would require the Faithful to perpetualy fast (which is actually forbidden by the Church). Such practices as requiring a week of fasting before Communion are innovations and not the original practice of the Orthodox Church.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,448



« Reply #153 on: February 08, 2009, 04:52:48 PM »

For someone Chinese, you use an awful lot of Greek in your English.

Those words are "ecclesiastical" rather than "greek",right?( like 'epitrachelion','phelonion'...klp...)

Actually, no.  For example:

Hellas.  It's Greece in English, nothing ecclesiastical about that.

Kata lathos.  It's by mistake in English.  Kata lathos is jargon in English. 

Arabic, unlike English, has linguistic constraints that impede wholescale adoption of Greek.  Chinese likewise has constraints too (though not the same ones), so I was just suprised to see so much Greek.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #154 on: February 08, 2009, 06:25:25 PM »

Is It Necessary to Abstain from Meat for One Week Before Communion?

Would it be useful to now make some sort of summation which answers the question posed?

There are three ways of abstaining from meat before Communion...

1.  Abstaining from meat for one week before Communion

2.  Abstaining from meat for three days before Communion

3.  Abstaining from meat from the Saturday midnight before Communion.


What should I do personally in the matter of how long to abstain from meat?

1.  If you live in one of the "home countries" of Orthodoxy there will be an already established praxis in your parish or your monastery.  In humility and obedience, simply abide by that.  If you believe your circumstances warrant something different, go to your spiritual father and seek his direction and blessing.   You can always return to him if you believe it needs adjusting later.

2.  If you live in the "diaspora" and there is no clear-cut praxis in your parish, then you need to seek out your parish priest or spiritual father and ask him for his direction and blessing.  In all cases one should strive to act obediently and with humility.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 06:40:55 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
frost
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian, grew up in OCA
Posts: 108


« Reply #155 on: February 08, 2009, 07:10:50 PM »

Actually, xerophagia (literally; dry eating) means more than abstaining from meat. It means observing the entire fasting discipline, abstaining from meat, fish, eggs, dairy, wine and oil.

We might also consider Our Lord's own words addressed to us in every Liturgy:

Piete ex aftou, pantes   .... Piite ot neia, Vsii.......Drink of this, All of you

Note:`  Our Lord said   "All of You"   not some of you !

The fact is that until later centuries, those who did not commune were required to leave the church with the penitents and catachumens. From the most ancient times, regular participation (koinonia) has been the rule, not the exception.

The fact is that many of the customs received from the Synodal period of the Russian church are defective, and were due to the civil government interference in the life of the church. Peter the Great abolished the Patriarchate, closed nearly all the monasteries, and made the clergy into government employees. The rules for extensive preparation for communion (it's called "goveniye" in Russian) date from this time, when the laity only came to communion once a year, in order to fulfill a legal requirement. In those times, very few of the laity observed the church's appointed fasts, and only confessed once a year; and so special preparation was necessary.

As Christians, we must remember that Our Lord's commandments are more important than any custom invented by men. Even so, all of us should prepare for participation in the Eucharist according to the directions of our spiritual father and the parish priest who is serving the Liturgy.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #156 on: February 08, 2009, 07:21:46 PM »

Actually, xerophagia (literally; dry eating) means more than abstaining from meat. It means observing the entire fasting discipline, abstaining from meat, fish, eggs, dairy, wine and oil.

Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil


Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #157 on: February 08, 2009, 07:52:22 PM »

The fact is that many of the customs received from the Synodal period of the Russian church are defective, and were due to the civil government interference in the life of the church.

These were not customs which resulted from the Synodal period in Russia. Russia simply shared the universal customs of the Orthodox Churches.

For example at the time of Peter the Great these Russian customs were also the norm throughout Greece and Mount Athos and the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  I don't know about Jerusalem, Alexandria and Antioch but since they came within the Greek sphere of influence these customs probably applied there too.

The Kollyvades movement coincides roughly with Peter's reign.  Their desire to introduce frequent communion caused uproar and division on the Holy Mountain.  It was so disruptive that several Patriarchs tried to intervene and pour oil on troubled waters.

For example there is this from Patriarch Theodosius II to the Athonite monks
in about 1770:

"He wrote to the monks of Athos saying that the early Christians
received Holy Communion every Sunday, while those of the subsequent
period received it every forty days, after penance; he advised
that whoever felt himself prepared should follow the former, whereas
if he did not he should follow the latter."

http://www.synodinresistance.org/pdfs/2008/11/29/20081129bMannafromAthos.pdf
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 08:00:55 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #158 on: February 08, 2009, 07:59:21 PM »

We might also consider Our Lord's own words addressed to us in every Liturgy:

Piete ex aftou, pantes   .... Piite ot neia, Vsii.......Drink of this, All of you

Note:`  Our Lord said   "All of You"   not some of you !

The fact is that until later centuries, those who did not commune were required to leave the church with the penitents and catachumens.


Not sure how that would be implemented?  During the period when I was a young monk I attended Liturgy every day.   Likewise many people,  especially the retired people, came to daily Liturgy at the monastery or at the parish churches.  It seems a bit mean to have asked these pious daily attenders (not to mention the monks and nuns, and the bishop in attendance in the Altar every morning) to leave the church at the start of the Anaphora!!
Logged
Tzimis
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,374



« Reply #159 on: February 08, 2009, 07:59:47 PM »

Actually, xerophagia (literally; dry eating) means more than abstaining from meat. It means observing the entire fasting discipline, abstaining from meat, fish, eggs, dairy, wine and oil.

Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil



I thought wine and oil is allowed on Saturday in observance of the sabbath. Huh
Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #160 on: February 08, 2009, 08:00:24 PM »

Actually, xerophagia (literally; dry eating) means more than abstaining from meat. It means observing the entire fasting discipline, abstaining from meat, fish, eggs, dairy, wine and oil.

Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil

It's not "understood" that you mean that unless you're trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition.  Why would abstaining from meat, the lowest and least restrictive degree of fasting, be "understood" to include more severe degrees of fasting?
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #161 on: February 08, 2009, 08:07:52 PM »

Actually, xerophagia (literally; dry eating) means more than abstaining from meat. It means observing the entire fasting discipline, abstaining from meat, fish, eggs, dairy, wine and oil.

Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil

It's not "understood" that you mean that unless you're trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition.  Why would abstaining from meat, the lowest and least restrictive degree of fasting, be "understood" to include more severe degrees of fasting?

Dear Veniamin,

I confess that you have lost me.  It is just the opposite to what you say.  Meat is NOT the "lowest and least restrictive level of fasting."  It is the highest and the most restrictive.   No matter how much the fast may be relaxed on a special Feastday, meat and milk and eggs are NEVER permitted. 

Btw, please do not accuse me of "trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition."  I spoke the truth and do not deserve to be addressed so scornfully.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 08:08:34 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #162 on: February 08, 2009, 08:22:34 PM »

I confess that you have lost me.  It is just the opposite to what you say.  Meat is NOT the "lowest and least restrictive level of fasting."  It is the highest and the most restrictive.   No matter how much the fast may be relaxed on a special Feastday, meat and milk and eggs are NEVER permitted.

See, you contradict yourself even within the same statement!  How is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  During Cheesefare Week, we must abstain from meat, yet are allowed milk and eggs and fish and wine and oil.  How then is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  Abstaining from wine and oil is the most restrictive because it is the one that requires us to also abstain from fish, and dairy, and meat.

Quote
Btw, please do not accuse me of "trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition."  I spoke the truth and do not deserve to be addressed so scornfully.

As you have already been quite in an outright lie concerning your allegations that the Pope was commemorated during the Divine Liturgy in Constantinople, I am quite entitled to mistrust every single word from you until its validity is proven.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #163 on: February 08, 2009, 08:24:50 PM »

Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil



I thought wine and oil is allowed on Saturday in observance of the sabbath. Huh

Yes indeed.  The only exception is Great and Holy Saturday.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #164 on: February 08, 2009, 08:48:29 PM »

I confess that you have lost me.  It is just the opposite to what you say.  Meat is NOT the "lowest and least restrictive level of fasting."  It is the highest and the most restrictive.   No matter how much the fast may be relaxed on a special Feastday, meat and milk and eggs are NEVER permitted.

See, you contradict yourself even within the same statement!  How is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  During Cheesefare Week, we must abstain from meat, yet are allowed milk and eggs and fish and wine and oil.  How then is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  Abstaining from wine and oil is the most restrictive because it is the one that requires us to also abstain from fish, and dairy, and meat.
Again, you have lost me.  We seem to be working with upside down triangles!  We see  meat as the most restrictive because it is the one level of fasting which cannot be broken.  For example, the great feast of Annunciation falls always in the Great Fast and while fish and wine and oil are allowed, meat (and milk and eggs) never can be.

Quote
Btw, please do not accuse me of "trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition."  I spoke the truth and do not deserve to be addressed so scornfully.

Quote
As you have already been quite in an outright lie concerning your allegations that the Pope was commemorated during the Divine Liturgy in Constantinople, I am quite entitled to mistrust every single word from you until its validity is proven.
 
I am not guilty of lying.  I may be mistaken as any mortal man may be, but I do not resort to lying.  That is a very very nasty allegation. I see you are a Section Moderator; as such you should not be accusing Forum members in this manner.  Forum members are entitled to be treated with the respect laid out in the Rules.  If you have a genuine complaint please follow the Rules and refer it to a Moderator.
Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #165 on: February 08, 2009, 09:04:34 PM »

I confess that you have lost me.  It is just the opposite to what you say.  Meat is NOT the "lowest and least restrictive level of fasting."  It is the highest and the most restrictive.   No matter how much the fast may be relaxed on a special Feastday, meat and milk and eggs are NEVER permitted.

See, you contradict yourself even within the same statement!  How is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  During Cheesefare Week, we must abstain from meat, yet are allowed milk and eggs and fish and wine and oil.  How then is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  Abstaining from wine and oil is the most restrictive because it is the one that requires us to also abstain from fish, and dairy, and meat.
Again, you have lost me.  We seem to be working with upside down triangles!  We see  meat as the most restrictive because it is the one level of fasting which cannot be broken.  For example, the great feast of Annunciation falls always in the Great Fast and while fish and wine and oil are allowed, meat (and milk and eggs) never can be.

From dictionary.reference.com:

Quote
Restrictive
Re*strict"ive\, a. [Cf. F. restrictif.]

1. Serving or tending to restrict; limiting; as, a restrictive particle; restrictive laws of trade.
(empasis mine).

So, once again, how is fasting from meat the most "limiting," when it allows for consumption of all other foods and there are levels of fasting that are more "limiting" than that of abstaining from meat alone?

Quote
Btw, please do not accuse me of "trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition."  I spoke the truth and do not deserve to be addressed so scornfully.

Quote
Quote
As you have already been quite in an outright lie concerning your allegations that the Pope was commemorated during the Divine Liturgy in Constantinople, I am quite entitled to mistrust every single word from you until its validity is proven.
 
I am not guilty of lying.  I may be mistaken as any mortal man may be, but I do not resort to lying.  That is a very very nasty allegation. I see you are a Section Moderator; as such you should not be accusing Forum members in this manner.  Forum members are entitled to be treated with the respect laid out in the Rules.  If you have a genuine complaint please follow the Rules and refer it to a Moderator.

Last time I checked, we couldn't warn anyone for lying.  However, since your accusation was publicly made and publicly demonstrated to be false, I am entitled to treat your statements as I would anyone who perjured himself on the stand.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #166 on: February 08, 2009, 09:34:38 PM »

Last time I checked, we couldn't warn anyone for lying.  However, since your accusation was publicly made and publicly demonstrated to be false, I am entitled to treat your statements as I would anyone who perjured himself on the stand.
It has not been demonstrated to be false.  It has merely been *alleged* to be false by one person.  I have suggested to two Moderators who speak Greek that they contact Athos directly and ask what the 20 Abbots and 20 monastery representatives meant by their letter to the Ecumenical Patriarch in December 2006.

Talk of lying and perjury is really offensive but since one Moderator has already made such outrageous allegations, three times and in public, I suppose that you, or any of us for that matter, are free to do so of other Forum members.   What is the world coming to?  Why are you making these allegations in public?  This is just deflecting from the purposes of the Forum.
Logged
Tzimis
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,374



« Reply #167 on: February 09, 2009, 12:37:02 AM »

Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil



I thought wine and oil is allowed on Saturday in observance of the sabbath. Huh

Yes indeed.  The only exception is Great and Holy Saturday.

I think I can see your reasoning father, but the word restrictive is misleading in that some including me for a moment misunderstood it for intensity of the fast rather than restrictive as in the least intensive.
Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #168 on: February 09, 2009, 12:24:24 PM »

When I was in the Latin Catholic Church, I saw the fasting requirements relax to one hour before receiving. As a child and young man I remembered waiting for long periods of time in long confession lines and then as an adult---no confession lines at all. I would see virtually everyone recieve Communion at every Mass--even when some of them that I knew would tell me that they no longer go to confession. I would even see visiting protestants go up to receive, usually at weddings but not exclusively.

After my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, I noticed the opposite--very few receiving Holy Communion except for 1-4 times per year. I was in shock!

What is the common denominator? ----I think it is aversion to the sacrament of Confession. It seemed to me that in the Latin Church---few went to confession but all received Communion. And it seems in the
Orthodox Church---few go to Confession and few go to Communion.

I think both are wrong. But if someone finds it difficult to prepare by prayer and fasting and Confession---and so only receives seldomly, they are honest with themselves and can grow into a deeper understanding.

But on the Latin side, how can a person grow when they are just going out of habit or because "everyone else is going"?

I do not mean this to be sweeping judgement on my behalf. I know there are exceptions on both sides, but these are observations that I have had.

Should someone go infrequently out of pious respect for the Holy Gifts? That does not make sense to me. The Holy Gifts are for our healing and salvation.

Should someone go infrequently because that is what they have learned? No. They should be taught differently.

Should someone go frequently when they are not properly prepared? No. We can point them to 1 Corinthians chapter 11. They must be prepared.

Should someone go infrequently because, in their human frailty, they find it difficult to fast and pray and humble themselves for Confession? This individual must go as often as they can while trying to grow into a deeper understanding and participation of the Sacrament.

I apologize if this wretched sinner has offended anyone. These are observations that are on my mind.

Mickey
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 12:26:20 PM by Mickey » Logged
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,181


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #169 on: February 09, 2009, 01:32:19 PM »

What is the common denominator? ----I think it is aversion to the sacrament of Confession. It seemed to me that in the Latin Church---few went to confession but all received Communion. And it seems in the
Orthodox Church---few go to Confession and few go to Communion.

One has to be careful when linking the Mysteries of confession and communion.  (I'm not sure if you are suggesting here that they are somehow inextricably linked, but I have seen this suggestion come up before, perhaps on this thread.)  Confession is seen as a Mystery that returns the penitent to their original state of baptismal grace.  Regular confession should of course be a part of someone's spiritual discipline when approaching the chalice on a frequent basis, partly because of this, but also largely because it is how most of us receive our spiritual direction nowadays.  However, the idea of linking the two sacraments so strongly has largely come about because of the practice of communing infrequently.  If one rarely receives communion, then of course one should go to confession every time before receiving the Gifts.  But if one is communing regularly, one should be able to go to confession as often as seems good to you and your spriitual father.  For some, this may be once every six weeks, others may go every month, still others may go less frequently if their spiritual father deems it a good practice.   If you and your spiritual father are comfortable with a weekly confession, of course this is fine too.  I just don't think that anyone should feel that this is "required" or make too much of linking confession and communion. Remember that when communion is given, the priest says "the servant of God N. receives....the....Body and Blood...for the remission of sins and unto life everlasting."
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 01:40:18 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #170 on: February 09, 2009, 02:08:46 PM »

One has to be careful when linking the Mysteries of confession and communion. 
But there is a connection. If you do not go to confession periodically (in my case it is every week), you cannot receive Communion frequently--am I incorrect?

Logged
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #171 on: February 09, 2009, 02:39:06 PM »

I thought you had to have approval from your priest and approval of the priest at the parish you visit in order to have communion. If that is the case wouldn't you ask what the requirements are for a given parish and follow them? It seems like an issue of respect to me. I don't take off my shoes as I enter my house. But I have friends that do so at their homes. So when I visit their house I take off my shoes as I enter. But that doesn't mean that I have to change my practice at my own home.

I've gone to many a different parish in my day (even around the world) and I've never once been asked anything other than, "What parish do you go to?" Never once have I been refused communion. I think it depends which church you go to and which customs you follow during the liturgy. For example, if you cross yourself right to left, bow at the appropriate times, present an aura of being Orthodox, most priests will take notice of that and if you provide them with a parish they will not question providing the sacraments. Of course I'm sure that each individual situation is different and its always best to check with the priest before you come up to receive.

-Nick
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
monkvasyl
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: UOC 0f USA
Posts: 653



« Reply #172 on: February 09, 2009, 02:51:08 PM »

One has to be careful when linking the Mysteries of confession and communion. 
But there is a connection. If you do not go to confession periodically (in my case it is every week), you cannot receive Communion frequently--am I incorrect?



In same cases if you are a weekly communicate, you must go at least 4 times a year, during the fasting periods.
Logged

The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #173 on: February 09, 2009, 03:02:25 PM »

Seems to me latinazation is creeping into Holy Orthodoxy God save us from that ...to recieve Holy Communion One has to go to confession each time...this is how i was raised.....not to approach unfasted or unconfessed.....

What is going on with some part's of orthodoxy it's becoming lax fast's are shortened approach regularly no confessions or maybe once a month or twice a month or maybe not at all.......

I wonder if the smoke of satan has entered part's of the orthodox church as well ,,as the roman pope proclaimed that it's entered the catholic church.............

« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:03:09 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #174 on: February 09, 2009, 03:10:18 PM »

Seems to me latinazation is creeping into Holy Orthodoxy God save us from that ...to recieve Holy Communion One has to go to confession each time...
Stashko, the linking of the Mysterion of Confession to the Mysterion of Communion is a Latinization.
They are separate Mysterions in Orthodoxy and each stands alone. One does not "have" to go to Confession each time before Communion.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:10:46 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #175 on: February 09, 2009, 03:12:16 PM »

Seems to me latinazation is creeping into Holy Orthodoxy God save us from that ...to recieve Holy Communion One has to go to confession each time...
Stashko, the linking of the Mysterion of Confession to the Mysterion of Communion is a Latinization.
They are separate Mysterions in Orthodoxy and each stands alone. One does not "have" to go to Confession each time before Communion.

Indeed, even amongst us Greek Old Calendarists there is no requirement linking the two. How could there be, when the prayers before communion make it clear that Communion itself forgives various sins?

Of course, regular communion does imply a regular relationship with a spiritual father. And for pastoral reasons, many times people are confessing before every communion. But I have to point out that is a pastoral situation, and not doctrine, as the two keep getting confused in this thread.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:13:03 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #176 on: February 09, 2009, 03:16:20 PM »


Stashko, the linking of the Mysterion of Confession to the Mysterion of Communion is a Latinization.
They are separate Mysterions in Orthodoxy and each stands alone. One does not "have" to go to Confession each time before Communion.

Are there some sources to back up your claim, or we should just rely on your opinion?

Particularly I'm asking for the referrence relating "prepared for communion" viz "confession" viz "sinfull state of man after the fall".

Thank you in advance.
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #177 on: February 09, 2009, 03:19:24 PM »

Seems to me latinazation is creeping into Holy Orthodoxy God save us from that


We Serbs do have certain advantage of seeing that.

We don't need "arguments" of "orthodox" internet "theologians" to explain how it is actually the other way around, and that linking communion with confession is latinization.

We do have a saying, do you know it brother?

"Од воље му као Шокцу пост".

All the arguments of "orthodox" internet "theologians" falls apart against that.
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #178 on: February 09, 2009, 03:22:27 PM »

One has to be careful when linking the Mysteries of confession and communion. 
But there is a connection. If you do not go to confession periodically (in my case it is every week), you cannot receive Communion frequently--am I incorrect?

Mickey we had this exact discussion with our Wednesday evening inquiry group meetings after Vespers and the parish is simply divided on this. One asked the question "are we ever truly prepared or worthy" to receive Communion. When we look at this in such a like the answer ultimately leads to laxity or scrupulosity....

What is the real answer?
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Tzimis
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,374



« Reply #179 on: February 09, 2009, 03:46:14 PM »

I'm going to agree with Fr. Anastasios on this because the sacrament of confession is a separate sacrament in my church. It could also relate to the way Greeks differ slightly to the practices of the Slavic traditions. Our church often uses the our father prayer before receiving communion. We pray this as a community. Now if there are specific sins one my have that will affect there communion with the church then one should non approach the Eucharist in a sinful state.
Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
Tags: communion fasting 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.168 seconds with 71 queries.