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Orthodoc
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« Reply #270 on: February 05, 2009, 02:47:04 AM »

Ozgeorge, Like I stated earlier in the thread!
Thanks Ukie.
I think I just want to sit and drink a glass of tsipouro to His All Holiness's health (who sent me a fax today btw) and just ignore some self-seeking "useful idiots" who chant mantras of unity while bulldozing their way through the Church.

It's comments like this that illict the responses you are getting from some of us!  Don't dish it out if you can't take it back!

Orthodoc

Well, ain't it the truth Orthodoc? Tell me, which Church is:
Just the one American Church.

?





The OCA.
Oh?
Well I'm afraid most of the Orthodox Church disagrees with you.

Not if you are taking church membership or the Hierachs of each into consideration.  The Moscow Patriarchate has 100+ million members.  There were 700 bishops alone who cast votes for the new Patriarch.  What's the mebership of the POC?  How many bishops are there in total that do not recognize the OCA autocephally as opposed to those Patriachates that do?

This is one of the reasons it is taking so long for this so called pan Orthodox council to be convened.  The POC realizes that on any isuue that comes up for a vote he will only have one vote the same as any other Orthodox bishop.  And if you compare the number of bishops who are not under his authority with those how are, he will never be able to control the council.

It's time for bed.  I'm too tired to concentrate.  Good night one and all!

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« Reply #271 on: February 05, 2009, 03:22:39 AM »

Ozgeorge, Like I stated earlier in the thread!
Thanks Ukie.
I think I just want to sit and drink a glass of tsipouro to His All Holiness's health (who sent me a fax today btw) and just ignore some self-seeking "useful idiots" who chant mantras of unity while bulldozing their way through the Church.

It's comments like this that illict the responses you are getting from some of us!  Don't dish it out if you can't take it back!

Orthodoc

Well, ain't it the truth Orthodoc? Tell me, which Church is:
Just the one American Church.

?





The OCA.
Oh?
Well I'm afraid most of the Orthodox Church disagrees with you.

and if it was up to a vote, I'd worry about it.
Actually, it's worse for you. It's up to a Great Synod. And it's a-comin'.

Ah yes, the Great Synod. Seems it's been in the planning stages before you and me, and I have not reason to think at present that it won't leave the drawing board before we are gone.

And I don't think it will be the rubber stamp the EP might expect it to be.  In particular as no one seems to buy his interpretation of canon 28 Chalcedon. Besides, why would they give up their jurisdictions to the EP?  and the MoP can't turn his back on the OCA while the EP is in his face in Estonia and Ukraine (no "the").

Quote
In the meantime, the OCA gets no recognition of autocephaly from any of the Ancient Patriarchates.


Alexandria and Jerusalem cut their deals with Constantinople (actually, Greece) over their jurisdictions in America.  Antioch has already given her archdiocese, once part of the OCA/metropolia, autonomy.

Who's going to chair the council?  Archbishop Spyridon? (btw, since the EP appointed him bishop of Chaldea, an area under Antioch, what do the canons say about appointing bishops beyond your jurisidiction?).

Quote
So if they want to go off and form some "American Church" and become legends in their own lunchtimes, they can go the way of the "The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in North America" et al .....and disappear into oblivion to be "resurrected" by crackpots on crack and pot who like to play dress-up.

The EP still talks as if Constantinople (I don't use the "I" word) is the Christian capital of a world empire.  I'd be more careful talking about "dress-up."


Quote
Alternatively, the OCA can work with the Church of Christ to resolve this issue.


Since the EP refers to his patriarchate as "the Holy Great Church of Christ" ("Great Church of Christ in Constantinople" in the Greek Constitution), I assume this is what you are talking about.  Since said Church barely recognizes the OCA, it makes working together rather difficult.

What about the three Moscow parishes in Australia?  Why is nobody getting twisted out of shape about them?
Because they don't seek to impose themselves. Anyway, what do you care? They are your Church now, remember?

Any problem with even handness, even self criticism?

I only see the EP trying to impose himself.
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« Reply #272 on: February 05, 2009, 03:36:23 AM »

Seven pages ialmisry, and still the best thought you can contribute is a verbose version of:
Tongue "SO NYAAAHHHHHHHH "

 Roll Eyes

Off you go then, into the Magic Kingdom of the One American Church.
Say hello to the elves for me.
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« Reply #273 on: February 05, 2009, 04:09:06 AM »

[Actually, it's worse for you. It's up to a Great Synod. And it's a-comin'.

Yes, I see that yesterday the Ecumenical Patriarch wrote to Patriarch Kirill of the Russians about speeding up preparations for the Great Council.

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=18034&t=Bartholomew+I%3AKirill+will+foster+Orthodox+unity

Wednesday, February 04, 2009

Bartholomew I: Kirill will foster Orthodox unity

      "The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople now expects 
an acceleration in the common journey toward the long-awaited
grand pan-Orthodox synod...".

I think that we must hope very fervently that this proposed Council does not come about. The matter of ranking the Churches in the diptychs is the primary item on the agenda and it will turn into an unholy turf war which will embarrass all of us in front of  the rest of the world.   

The dyptichs have always been decided at Ecumenical Councils, with the bishops taking into account both the historical importance and traditional ranking of the Patriarchates COUPLED with a pragmatic assesment of the contemporary importance of the Patriarchates.  In this way Constantinople booted the Patriarchate of Alexandria out of second place and took second place for itself.

We will find that the Church of Russia will be lobbying that its size and importance must be recognised in the 21st century.  I doubt whether it would try to persuade the Churches to displace Constantinople and assign it to first ranking but it could very well go for second. 

The potential damage which this proposed Council could inflict on Orthodoxy was Fr Justin Popovich's primary anxiety.  His concerns are documented somewhere on the Net.


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« Reply #274 on: February 05, 2009, 04:34:34 AM »

Ozgeorge, Like I stated earlier in the thread!
Thanks Ukie.
I think I just want to sit and drink a glass of tsipouro to His All Holiness's health (who sent me a fax today btw) and just ignore some self-seeking "useful idiots" who chant mantras of unity while bulldozing their way through the Church.

It's comments like this that illict the responses you are getting from some of us!  Don't dish it out if you can't take it back!

Orthodoc

Well, ain't it the truth Orthodoc? Tell me, which Church is:
Just the one American Church.

?





The OCA.
Isa, if we ever become the one and ONLY Orthodox church in North America, only then can you call the OCA the ONE American Church.
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« Reply #275 on: February 05, 2009, 04:37:04 AM »

In particular as no one seems to buy his interpretation of canon 28 Chalcedon.
I don't buy it, and obviously you don't, but can you prove that no one else outside of Constantinople's direct jurisdiction buys it?
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« Reply #276 on: February 05, 2009, 04:44:37 AM »

In particular as no one seems to buy his interpretation of canon 28 Chalcedon.
I don't buy it, and obviously you don't, but can you prove that no one else outside of Constantinople's direct jurisdiction buys it?

Well, Saint Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain thought it was a bunch of baloney!
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Re: the claims of the EP to universal jurisdiction either in the case of appeals, or over all unclaimed territory in the world:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prerogatives_of_the_Ecumenical_Patriarchate#Universal_right_of_appeal

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prerogatives_of_the_Ecumenical_Patriarchate#Jurisdiction_in_.22Barbarian_Lands.22
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« Reply #277 on: February 05, 2009, 04:51:58 AM »

Well, Saint Nikodemos of the Holy Mountain thought it was a bunch of baloney!
Um, you're own source says that according to St. Nikodemus, the Oecumenical Patriarchate should be appointing the Bishops of the Synod of Moscow:
Quote
Concerning the meaning of the reference to "barbarian Lands," St. Nicodemos writes:

    "Not only are the Metropolitans of the said dioceses to be ordained by him, but indeed also the bishops located in barbarian regions that border on the said dioceses, as, for instance, those called Alani are adjacent to and flank the diocese of Pontus, while the Russians border on that of Thrace."

Well, well, well.
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« Reply #278 on: February 05, 2009, 04:57:52 AM »

Ozgeorge, Like I stated earlier in the thread!
Thanks Ukie.
I think I just want to sit and drink a glass of tsipouro to His All Holiness's health (who sent me a fax today btw) and just ignore some self-seeking "useful idiots" who chant mantras of unity while bulldozing their way through the Church.

It's comments like this that illict the responses you are getting from some of us!  Don't dish it out if you can't take it back!

Orthodoc

Well, ain't it the truth Orthodoc? Tell me, which Church is:
Just the one American Church.

?





The OCA.
Isa, if we ever become the one and ONLY Orthodox church in North America, only then can you call the OCA the ONE American Church.
Isn't that what an autocephalous Church implies? That it is the only church with jurisdiction in it's territory?
Hence why we cannot recognise your autocephaly.
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« Reply #279 on: February 05, 2009, 05:27:06 AM »

Isn't that what an autocephalous Church implies? That it is the only church with jurisdiction in it's territory?

Apparently not, George.

All the bishops in northern Greece and some in central Greece are members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece, and at the same time Constantinople lists them on its websiite as members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Constantinople.  Much canonical irregularity.   Huh
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« Reply #280 on: February 05, 2009, 05:32:07 AM »

All the bishops in northern Greece and some in central Greece are members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece
No they aren't Irish Hermit. The Church of Greece acted as though they are, and a few of them (the minority) acted as though they were; and as a result, an Endemousa Synod excommunicated the Archbishop of Athens in 2004.
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« Reply #281 on: February 05, 2009, 06:06:25 AM »

I'd be more careful talking about "dress-up."
Why? Do you fear the wrath of the Synod of the Patriarchate of America?
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« Reply #282 on: February 05, 2009, 06:07:17 AM »

All the bishops in northern Greece and some in central Greece are members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece
No they aren't Irish Hermit. The Church of Greece acted as though they are, and a few of them (the minority) acted as though they were; and as a result, an Endemousa Synod excommunicated the Archbishop of Athens in 2004.

Dear George,

Go on the web.  Find the current list of the members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece.

Then find the current list of the members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Constantinople.
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« Reply #283 on: February 05, 2009, 06:19:23 AM »

Dear George,

Go on the web.  Find the current list of the members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece.

Then find the current list of the members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Constantinople.

Dear Irish Hermit,
Read what I said again....very slowly......

All the bishops in northern Greece and some in central Greece are members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece
No
they
aren't
Irish
Hermit.
The
Church
of
Greece
acted
as
though
they
are.......
So, what would you expect to see when you go to the website of the Church of Greece?
And now, the clarification (again): http://www.goarch.org/news/goa.news1121
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« Reply #284 on: February 05, 2009, 06:35:36 AM »

No they aren't Irish Hermit. The Church of Greece acted as though they are, and a few of them (the minority) acted as though they were; and as a result, an Endemousa Synod excommunicated the Archbishop of Athens in 2004.


That's interesting, George.    I did not know that the bishops of one autocephalous Church had the canonical right to excommunicate the Primate of another autocephalous Church.

If this is the case why doesn't the Endemousa Synod excommunicate the Primate of the soi-disant autocephalous Church of America? 

In fact why doesn't it excommunicate all the bishops around the world who have shamelessly violated Canon 28 and invaded the canonical territory of the Great Church of Constantinople, in America, Western Europe and Australia, Japan and Asia?
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« Reply #285 on: February 05, 2009, 06:49:06 AM »

So, what would you expect to see when you go to the website of the Church of Greece?
And now, the clarification (again): http://www.goarch.org/news/goa.news1121

But George, this 2004 Statement seems out of touch with reality with its claims.   Its strange claims seem to confirm the statement of Constantinople's chief canonist for the Holy Synod, Metropolitan Panteleimon Rodopoulos, that Constantinople may be ailing and acting aberrantly.


Take one  claim in the Statement "... the Ecumenical Patriarch remaining her primate..."  Now WHO looks on the Patriarch in Constantinople as the Primate of the Church of Greece? 

Is the Great Throne ailing and acting aberrantly? There are some who think so  - even some of its leading hierarchs. 

Interesting tidbit from an earlier thread on OrthodoxChristianity.

[begin quote] "... the opinions I espouse are quite common and quite popular within the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Just read anything on the matter written by the Oecumenical Patriarch, or by the chief canonist for the Holy Synod, Metropolitan Panteleimon Rodopoulos,

I see that Rodopoulos quotes Zonaras in his "Ecclesiological Review of the Thirty-Fourth Apostolic Canon" and the implication seems to be that at the present time the Ecumenical Patriarchate is ailing in some way and acting aberrantly:

""Just as bodies, if the head does not maintain its activity in good health, function faultily or are completely useless, so also the body of the Church, if its preeminent member, who occupies the position of head, is not maintained in his proper honor, functions in a disorderly and faulty manner."

Now if this is the case and the EP is indeed, for whatever reason, acting in a "disorderly and faulty manner" - whether in the Ukraine or Estonia or in its contacts with Rome - then we must be cautious in our own contacts with it and not allow the EP's aberrations to affect the entire body of the Church. 

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:3PIJAgyeG1YJ:www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php%3Ftopic%3D13487.45+%22Panteleimon+Rodopoulos%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=30&gl=nz




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« Reply #286 on: February 05, 2009, 06:55:43 AM »

That's interesting, George.    I did not know that the bishops of one autocephalous Church had the canonical right to excommunicate the Primate of another autocephalous Church.
Huh
Do you understand the difference between a Patriarchate, an Autonoumous Church and and Autocephalous Church?

If this is the case why doesn't the Endemousa Synod excommunicate the Primate of the soi-disant autocephalous Church of America?
Why? Has the OCA tried to usurp any of the Dioscese, Exarchates or Metropolitanates of the Patriarchate as the Church of Greece attempted to do? And there is no such thing as "the" Endemousa Synod. An Endemousa Synod is a Pan-Orthodox Resident Synod of all Bishops from all Jurisdictions present in The City at the time of the Synod.
The Synod which upheld the Deposing of the former Patriarch of Jerusalem was an Endemousa Synod as well, which included Bishops from the Patriarchates of Antioch, Alexandria, Moscow, Greece, Cyprus, Serbia, and Poland. 14 Churches in total.

In fact why doesn't it excommunicate all the bishops around the world who have shamelessly violated Canon 28 and invaded the canonical territory of the Great Church of Constantinople, in America, Western Europe and Australia, Japan and Asia?
Why? Why not seek a Concilliar solution to the problem of multiple jurisdictions in the New World? Why does the answer to every problem have to be "Anathema!"?
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« Reply #287 on: February 05, 2009, 06:59:38 AM »

Do you understand the difference between a Patriarchate, an Autonoumous Church and and Autocephalous Church?


I believe I do but just in case we have differing understandings would you offer us some definitions?
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« Reply #288 on: February 05, 2009, 07:02:30 AM »

I believe I do but just in case we have differing understandings would you offer us some definitions?
Later dude. I'm being paged.

 This poster, Irish Hermit, is well known as being a priest. As you are well aware, we do insist that clergy be addressed with the apprpriate dignity of their office.

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« Reply #289 on: February 05, 2009, 07:05:39 AM »


And there is no such thing as "the" Endemousa Synod. An Endemousa Synod is a Pan-Orthodox Resident Synod of all Bishops from all Jurisdictions present in The City at the time of the Synod.

At the present time the Endemousa Synod is simply all the Greek bishops without jobs, with only titular dioceses and without any flock, who hang around Constantinople and draw a salary from the Patriarchate.  I suppose it is a bit like the Vatican's Curia.

Nothing "Pan"-Orthodox about it, I wouldn't say!  How many non-Constantinopolitan bishops participated in the Endemousa Synod of 2004?   How many from Russia? from Antioch?  from Serbia?
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« Reply #290 on: February 05, 2009, 07:11:16 AM »

Why does the answer to every problem have to be "Anathema!"?

Ask the boss.  police He used it against the Archbishop of Athens in 2004 and he got his way.

He threatened to use it against Jerusalem a few years back in Australia and he got his way.  Do you remember that?
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« Reply #291 on: February 05, 2009, 07:46:18 AM »

That's interesting, George.    I did not know that the bishops of one autocephalous Church had the canonical right to excommunicate the Primate of another autocephalous Church.
Huh
Do you understand the difference between a Patriarchate, an Autonoumous Church and and Autocephalous Church?

You did not answer the question....   Do the bishops of one autocephalous Church have the canonical right to excommunicate the Primate of another autocephalous Church as Constantinople did to the Archbishop of Athens in 2004.

Most of us would see this as the same as the papal pretensions to universal jurisdiction.
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« Reply #292 on: February 05, 2009, 08:14:52 AM »

Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?


I certainly don't.  I belong to a ROCOR Parish, and we are 3 miles from an OCA Parish, and we get along fine!
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« Reply #293 on: February 05, 2009, 08:29:56 AM »

I'd be more careful talking about "dress-up."
Why? Do you fear the wrath of the Synod of the Patriarchate of America?

No, but I do fear New Rome acting out much like Old Rome did when she was similarly emfeebled.  You do remember that results, don't you?  That's why Benedict is not in the diptychs.

That's interesting, George.    I did not know that the bishops of one autocephalous Church had the canonical right to excommunicate the Primate of another autocephalous Church.
Huh
Do you understand the difference between a Patriarchate, an Autonoumous Church and and Autocephalous Church?

You did not answer the question....   Do the bishops of one autocephalous Church have the canonical right to excommunicate the Primate of another autocephalous Church as Constantinople did to the Archbishop of Athens in 2004.

Most of us would see this as the same as the papal pretensions to universal jurisdiction.


Yes, and New Rome is acting like Old Rome did: overemphasizing its pretensions as her glory faded, letting jelousy dictate her ecclesiology, with disasterous results.  But New Rome hasn't converted her conquerors like Old Rome, so the results will be more dire.
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« Reply #294 on: February 05, 2009, 08:30:58 AM »

Is the OCA considered schismatic and out of communion by those who don't recognize its autocephalecy?
Schismatic? No.
We just don't recognize it's autocephaly.
As for those of you who would deny any help to the Persecuted Churches- I personally consider you worse than schismatics.


What exactly is a "persecuted" Church?  Would you be referring to Churches such as HOCNA? or possibly ROCIA? Inquiring minds want to know! Smiley
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« Reply #295 on: February 05, 2009, 08:33:15 AM »

Seven pages ialmisry, and still the best thought you can contribute is a verbose version of:
Tongue "SO NYAAAHHHHHHHH "

 Roll Eyes

Off you go then, into the Magic Kingdom of the One American Church.
Say hello to the elves for me.

I'll send you a fax to the Magic Empire of the Romans.  Say hello to the Basileus for me.
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« Reply #296 on: February 05, 2009, 08:34:47 AM »

In particular as no one seems to buy his interpretation of canon 28 Chalcedon.
I don't buy it, and obviously you don't, but can you prove that no one else outside of Constantinople's direct jurisdiction buys it?

SCOBA not being the GOA synod.
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« Reply #297 on: February 05, 2009, 08:37:43 AM »

Dear George,

Go on the web.  Find the current list of the members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece.

Then find the current list of the members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Constantinople.

Dear Irish Hermit,
Read what I said again....very slowly......

All the bishops in northern Greece and some in central Greece are members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece
No
they
aren't
Irish
Hermit.
The
Church
of
Greece
acted
as
though
they
are.......
So, what would you expect to see when you go to the website of the Church of Greece?
And now, the clarification (again): http://www.goarch.org/news/goa.news1121


Hmmm.  So the EP isn't the only jurisdiction on his terriory.  I guess we can't recognize his autocephalosy.
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« Reply #298 on: February 05, 2009, 08:40:56 AM »

I see that Rodopoulos quotes Zonaras in his "Ecclesiological Review of the Thirty-Fourth Apostolic Canon" and the implication seems to be that at the present time the Ecumenical Patriarchate is ailing in some way and acting aberrantly:

""Just as bodies, if the head does not maintain its activity in good health, function faultily or are completely useless, so also the body of the Church, if its preeminent member, who occupies the position of head, is not maintained in his proper honor, functions in a disorderly and faulty manner."

Now if this is the case and the EP is indeed, for whatever reason, acting in a "disorderly and faulty manner" - whether in the Ukraine or Estonia or in its contacts with Rome - then we must be cautious in our own contacts with it and not allow the EP's aberrations to affect the entire body of the Church.   

I don't really want to enter the debate, just a syntactical note about how the above quote from the Metropolitan should be interpreted, based on the sentence structure and comma usage:

""Just as bodies, if the head does not maintain its activity in good health, function faultily or are completely useless, so also the body of the Church, if its preeminent member, who occupies the position of head, is not maintained in his proper honor, functions in a disorderly and faulty manner."

EQUALS - "If the body does not maintain the position of the head, the body functions in a faulty or useless way; so too if the body of the Church does not maintain the proper honor of its preeminent member who occupies the position of head, then the Body of the Church will also function in a disorderly and faulty manner."

NOT - "If the body does not maintain the position of the head, the head functions in a faulty or useless way; so too if the body of the Church does not maintain the proper honor of its preeminent member who occupies the position of head, then the head will also function in a disorderly and faulty manner."
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« Reply #299 on: February 05, 2009, 08:44:27 AM »

That's interesting, George.    I did not know that the bishops of one autocephalous Church had the canonical right to excommunicate the Primate of another autocephalous Church.
Huh
Do you understand the difference between a Patriarchate, an Autonoumous Church and and Autocephalous Church?

You did not answer the question....   Do the bishops of one autocephalous Church have the canonical right to excommunicate the Primate of another autocephalous Church as Constantinople did to the Archbishop of Athens in 2004.

Most of us would see this as the same as the papal pretensions to universal jurisdiction.

IIRC, it's happened in the past.  In the heydays of swirling heresies (4th-8th Centuries) it was more common than it is now; excommunications of one Patriarch by another would happen even before Synods were called to deal with the problem.  It's a means of self-protection, and a means of "shaking up" the one being excommunicated, hopefully stirring them to repent or abdicate.
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« Reply #300 on: February 05, 2009, 08:49:40 AM »

I see that Rodopoulos quotes Zonaras in his "Ecclesiological Review of the Thirty-Fourth Apostolic Canon" and the implication seems to be that at the present time the Ecumenical Patriarchate is ailing in some way and acting aberrantly:

""Just as bodies, if the head does not maintain its activity in good health, function faultily or are completely useless, so also the body of the Church, if its preeminent member, who occupies the position of head, is not maintained in his proper honor, functions in a disorderly and faulty manner."

Now if this is the case and the EP is indeed, for whatever reason, acting in a "disorderly and faulty manner" - whether in the Ukraine or Estonia or in its contacts with Rome - then we must be cautious in our own contacts with it and not allow the EP's aberrations to affect the entire body of the Church.   

I don't really want to enter the debate, just a syntactical note about how the above quote from the Metropolitan should be interpreted, based on the sentence structure and comma usage:

""Just as bodies, if the head does not maintain its activity in good health, function faultily or are completely useless, so also the body of the Church, if its preeminent member, who occupies the position of head, is not maintained in his proper honor, functions in a disorderly and faulty manner."

EQUALS - "If the body does not maintain the position of the head, the body functions in a faulty or useless way; so too if the body of the Church does not maintain the proper honor of its preeminent member who occupies the position of head, then the Body of the Church will also function in a disorderly and faulty manner."

NOT - "If the body does not maintain the position of the head, the head functions in a faulty or useless way; so too if the body of the Church does not maintain the proper honor of its preeminent member who occupies the position of head, then the head will also function in a disorderly and faulty manner."

yes, the Vatican canonists say the same thing.  Hence 1870.
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« Reply #301 on: February 05, 2009, 08:53:43 AM »

Dear George,

Go on the web.  Find the current list of the members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece.

Then find the current list of the members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Constantinople.

Dear Irish Hermit,
Read what I said again....very slowly......

All the bishops in northern Greece and some in central Greece are members of the Synod of the autocephalous Church of Greece
No
they
aren't
Irish
Hermit.
The
Church
of
Greece
acted
as
though
they
are.......
So, what would you expect to see when you go to the website of the Church of Greece?
And now, the clarification (again): http://www.goarch.org/news/goa.news1121


Hmmm.  So the EP isn't the only jurisdiction on his terriory.  I guess we can't recognize his autocephalosy.
A Patriarchate does not have autocephalosy (or autocephaly).
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« Reply #302 on: February 05, 2009, 09:06:57 AM »

I don't really want to enter the debate, just a syntactical note about how the above quote from the Metropolitan should be interpreted, based on the sentence structure and comma usage:

""Just as bodies, if the head does not maintain its activity in good health, function faultily or are completely useless, so also the body of the Church, if its preeminent member, who occupies the position of head, is not maintained in his proper honor, functions in a disorderly and faulty manner."

EQUALS - "If the body does not maintain the position of the head, the body functions in a faulty or useless way; so too if the body of the Church does not maintain the proper honor of its preeminent member who occupies the position of head, then the Body of the Church will also function in a disorderly and faulty manner."

NOT - "If the body does not maintain the position of the head, the head functions in a faulty or useless way; so too if the body of the Church does not maintain the proper honor of its preeminent member who occupies the position of head, then the head will also function in a disorderly and faulty manner."

yes, the Vatican canonists say the same thing.  Hence 1870.

Eh.  Whatever the point, I only wanted a correct interpretation of the statement to be used (you've obviously gotten that).  I don't know if I agree 100% with the implications of Metropolitan Panteleimon's statement, but in a very limited sense it is true; there are writings of the ancient Church about the relationship of a synod to its President that emphasize the necessity for a back-and-forth relationship, that the Synod should do nothing without the President, and the President nothing without the Synod.  The same should go for any Patriarch - when acting as Archbishop (or Metropolitan, in the Russian case) of his own diocese, he is acting as a bishop and needs little input.  When acting as Patriarch to those within the Synodal family, he must act with the cooperation and consent of the Patriarchal Synod.  When the EP acts as First among equals, then he should do so with the consent of the body of equals, and the body of equals should act with the consent of the First.
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« Reply #303 on: February 05, 2009, 09:25:57 AM »

[EQUALS - "If the body does not maintain the position of the head, the body functions in a faulty or useless way; so too if the body of the Church does not maintain the proper honor of its preeminent member who occupies the position of head, then the Body of the Church will also function in a disorderly and faulty manner."

Yes.

"Now if this is the case and the EP is indeed, for whatever reason, acting in a "disorderly and faulty manner" - whether in the Ukraine or Estonia or in its contacts with Rome - then we must be cautious in our own contacts with it and not allow the EP's aberrations to affect the entire body of the Church."
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« Reply #304 on: February 05, 2009, 09:30:56 AM »

A Patriarchate does not have autocephalosy (or autocephaly).

I can't speak for Constantinople, but our Patriarchate (Russia) has autocephaly.  It is one of the nine autocephalous patriarchates in the modern world.
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« Reply #305 on: February 05, 2009, 09:37:22 AM »

When the EP acts as First among equals, then he should do so with the consent of the body of equals, and the body of equals should act with the consent of the First.


There is no such thing as a first among equals; this is a nonsensical term. If someone is first, the others are not equal; if all are equal, then none is first.
 
But the phrase is used as code to convey an ecclesiological concept.  Unfortunately we are not agreed on the code.  :-)
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« Reply #306 on: February 05, 2009, 09:46:34 AM »

I can't speak for Constantinople, but our Patriarchate (Russia) has autocephaly.
Yep. That's because Constantinople granted it's autocephaly.
Who granted Constantinople's autocephaly? Or Antioch's? Or Alexandria's? Or Jerusalem's? Or Rome's?
See the difference?
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« Reply #307 on: February 05, 2009, 09:53:43 AM »

When the EP acts as First among equals, then he should do so with the consent of the body of equals, and the body of equals should act with the consent of the First.

As a Russian I am committed to the belief that there is NO Primus inter pares (First among equals.)  Why?  Because the Russian Church does not believe there is a universal primacy.   The notion is outside authentic Orthodox ecclesiology.   There is local primacy and regional primacy - both are well regulated by the canons of several Ecumenical Councils.  But there is no mention of any universal primacy in the canons and no Council held any discussions or offered any teaching on it.  It just does not exist.

On the other hand, those who follow Constantinople seem to be committed to the concept.  This could backfire when unity is achieved with Rome and Rome assumes the position of "First among equals."  Constantinople will then be subordinated to Rome which will extend over Constantinople its universal primacy.

The Orthodox are on very shaky and very dangerous ground when they play with the concept of universal primacy.  This was the theme of the Ravenna discussions and the Ravenna Document.  It will come back to bite the Orthodox in the behind.  Fortunately,  Russia and Serbia have repudiated Ravenna, while the rest of the Churches have refused to ratify it synodically.  They are simply letting it quietly slide into the void.  There is no conciliar acceptance.   Not sure though if Constantinople ratified it?  Can anyone confirm or deny?
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« Reply #308 on: February 05, 2009, 10:00:26 AM »

As a Russian I am committed to the belief that there is NO Primus inter pares (First among equals.)  Why?
Because of Estonia and nothing more profound than that:
 http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=26546&sec=15&con=56
Moscow is no "hero of Orthodoxy" about this. Moscow walked out of the talks over Estonia, not some high ideals about where they stand on primus inter pares. It was just the usual self-interest of the "Third Rome."
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« Reply #309 on: February 05, 2009, 10:03:02 AM »

I can't speak for Constantinople, but our Patriarchate (Russia) has autocephaly.
Yep. That's because Constantinople granted it's autocephaly.
Who granted Constantinople's autocephaly? Or Antioch's? Or Alexandria's? Or Jerusalem's? Or Rome's?
See the difference?

Are you making a distinction between "autocephalous Patriarchates"  (Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania) and "non-autocephalous Patriarchates" (Alexandria, Rome, Antioch.)

I don't grasp the distinction.

Btw, Jerusalem was not given autocephaly until 450 by the Fourth Ecumenical Council and it was given patriarchal status by the Council in Trullo (690 AD?)

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« Reply #310 on: February 05, 2009, 10:07:13 AM »

As a Russian I am committed to the belief that there is NO Primus inter pares (First among equals.)  Why?
Because of Estonia and nothing more profound than that:
 

Seems a piece of mythology.   Grin

The Constantinople claim to be "primus inter pares" (for a while longer, until they achieve unity with Rome)   - what does it entail?  What powers does it confer on Constantinople? 
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« Reply #311 on: February 05, 2009, 10:09:38 AM »

When the EP acts as First among equals, then he should do so with the consent of the body of equals, and the body of equals should act with the consent of the First.

As a Russian I am committed to the belief that there is NO Primus inter pares (First among equals.)  Why?  Because the Russian Church does not believe there is a universal primacy.   The notion is outside authentic Orthodox ecclesiology.   There is local primacy and regional primacy - both are well regulated by the canons of several Ecumenical Councils.  But there is no mention of any universal primacy in the canons and no Council held any discussions or offered any teaching on it.  It just does not exist.

On the other hand, those who follow Constantinople seem to be committed to the concept.  This could backfire when unity is achieved with Rome and Rome assumes the position of "First among equals."  Constantinople will then be subordinated to Rome which will extend over Constantinople its universal primacy.

The Orthodox are on very shaky and very dangerous ground when they play with the concept of universal primacy.  This was the theme of the Ravenna discussions and the Ravenna Document.  It will come back to bite the Orthodox in the behind.  Fortunately,  Russia and Serbia have repudiated Ravenna, while the rest of the Churches have refused to ratify it synodically.  They are simply letting it quietly slide into the void.  There is no conciliar acceptance.   Not sure though if Constantinople ratified it?  Can anyone confirm or deny?

Since when did "Primus Inter pares" mean Universal Primacy....?  I don't consider that a correct definition..... Huh
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« Reply #312 on: February 05, 2009, 10:19:15 AM »

The Constantinople claim to be "primus inter pares" (for a while longer, until they achieve unity with Rome)   - what does it entail?  What powers does it confer on Constantinople? 
Powers? What "powers" does a Primate of a Synod have in the Orthodox Church? Doesn't he work in concert with his Synod? But isn't he the Primate?
Why do you have such difficulty with the Concilliar Nature of the Church?
Is the Orthodox Church One Church? Does she decide things in Councils?
Even recent history shows you how the "primus inter pares" operates with the summoning of the Endemousa Synod which deposed Patriarch Ireneous in 2005. Was it so scary? Why did Moscow participate in the Enemousa Synod of Constantinople which deposed a Patriarch of an Ancient Patriarchate if she opposes "primus inter pares"?
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« Reply #313 on: February 05, 2009, 10:21:32 AM »

Moscow walked out of the talks over Estonia, not some high ideals about where they stand on primus inter pares.

Yes, it was a shame that the issue of Constantinople bringing in delegates from an unrecognised Church caused the Russians to leave.  It would have been much better if they had stayed and taken part in the discussions on universal primacy.

But no great harm was done.  The Orthodox Churches have not ratified trhe Ravenna Document anyway, and a Russian Commission is working at producing a statement on universal primacy. 

Constantinople is insisting that it has the right to bring delegates from its autonomous Churches.  Russia is now claiming the equal right for future meetings of the Commission.  Russia has 7 Churches with the same status as the Estonian Church so that will provide it with an extra 14 delegates. Each Church has 2 delegates, matched by an equal number from the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #314 on: February 05, 2009, 10:23:02 AM »

Sadly, I see now what you mean by "power".
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