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Author Topic: on the dead before christ resurrection  (Read 3164 times) Average Rating: 0
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marlo
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« on: January 22, 2009, 06:02:40 AM »

Hi there

What is the Eastern Orthodox teaching regarding the dead? especially before the resurrection of Jesus.
the gospel shows Jesus with Moses and Elijah in the Mountains but,  Both Moses and Elijah had been dead for centuries, and should remain in this state until the First Resurrection.

Why then they are shown alive in the gospel, did they already received the fruits of christ resurrection?

thanks
marlo
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 07:40:16 AM »


From the Russian Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev of Vienna
Russian Orthodox Church's Representative for the EU

"The Descent of Christ into Hades in Eastern and Western Theological
Traditions"


A lecture delivered at St Mary's Catholic Cathedral, Minneapolis, USA,
on 5 November  2002

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/11/1/5.aspx
[For full article]

Extract:
__________________________________________
The descent of Christ into Hades is one of the most mysterious, enigmatic
and inexplicable events in New Testament history. In today's Christian
world, this event is understood differently. Liberal Western theology
rejects altogether any possibility for speaking of the descent of Christ
into Hades literally, arguing that the scriptural texts on this theme should
be understood metaphorically. The traditional Catholic doctrine insists that
after His death on the cross Christ descended to hell only to deliver the
Old Testament righteous from it. A similar understanding is quite widespread
among Orthodox Christians.

On the other hand, the New Testament speaks of the preaching of Christ in
hell as addressed to the unrepentant sinners: 'For Christ also died for sins
once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to
God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which
he went and preached to the spirit in prison, who formerly did not obey,
when God's patience waited.

However, many Church Fathers and liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church
repeatedly underline that having descended to hell, Christ opened the way to
salvation for all people, not only the Old Testament righteous. The descent
of Christ into Hades is perceived as an event of cosmic significance
involving all people without exception. They also speak about the victory of
Christ over death, the full devastation of hell and that after the descent
of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and
demons.
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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 10:17:59 AM »

St John Chrysostom's famous Easter homily expresses the Orthodox position beautifully. Here is an excerpt:

Let no one grieve at their poverty: for the kingdom for all has been revealed. Let no one bewail their faults: for forgiveness has risen from the tomb. Let no one fear death: for the Saviour’s death has freed us. By enduring it he quenched it. He who descended into Hell has despoiled Hell. He embittered it when it tasted his flesh as Isaias proclaimed in prophecy, ‘Death’, he said, ‘was embittered when it met you there below’. Embittered, for it was destroyed. Embittered, for it was mocked Embittered, for it was slain. Embittered for it was wiped out. Embittered, for it was bound fast. It received a body, and came face to face with God. It received earth, and met heaven. It received what it saw, and fell through what it did not see. O death, where is your sting? O hell, where is your victory? Christ has risen, and you are abolished! Christ has risen, and the demons have fallen! Christ has risen, and Angels rejoice! Christ has risen, and life has found freedom! Christ has risen, and there is no corpse in the grave! For Christ, being raised from the dead, has become the first fruits of those who sleep. To him be glory and might to the ages of ages. Amen.
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 11:12:58 AM »


What I was told about the Holy Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, was that that Christ was seen with Moses and Elijah. We know that Moses has died, because it is so written.  However, Elijah, was taken up to Heaven in a chariot pulled by horses of flame.  When Christ revealed Himself between these two entities, Moses represented the "dead" and Elijah represented the "living".  In other words, Christ was here to save both those who have passed away and those who are still alive.

...that's what I was taught.

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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 03:35:18 PM »


What I was told about the Holy Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, was that that Christ was seen with Moses and Elijah. We know that Moses has died, because it is so written.  However, Elijah, was taken up to Heaven in a chariot pulled by horses of flame.  When Christ revealed Himself between these two entities, Moses represented the "dead" and Elijah represented the "living".  In other words, Christ was here to save both those who have passed away and those who are still alive.

...that's what I was taught.


Agreed.... and there was other important things being imparted to the apostles who witnessed it.  Christ was under attack as a charlatan.  But here we see Moses and Elijah appearing to Him.  Moses represented the Law and Elijah represented the Prophets.  The appearances were a divine approval of Christ to the apostles.  He was not one of the many false Messiahs around at the time.  He was the summation of the Law and the Prophets.  Both bowed down to Him.
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 04:51:20 PM »

St John Chrysostom's famous Easter homily expresses the Orthodox position beautifully. Here is an excerpt:

Let no one grieve at their poverty: for the kingdom for all has been revealed. Let no one bewail their faults: for forgiveness has risen from the tomb. Let no one fear death: for the Saviour’s death has freed us. By enduring it he quenched it. He who descended into Hell has despoiled Hell. He embittered it when it tasted his flesh as Isaias proclaimed in prophecy, ‘Death’, he said, ‘was embittered when it met you there below’. Embittered, for it was destroyed. Embittered, for it was mocked Embittered, for it was slain. Embittered for it was wiped out. Embittered, for it was bound fast. It received a body, and came face to face with God. It received earth, and met heaven. It received what it saw, and fell through what it did not see. O death, where is your sting? O hell, where is your victory? Christ has risen, and you are abolished! Christ has risen, and the demons have fallen! Christ has risen, and Angels rejoice! Christ has risen, and life has found freedom! Christ has risen, and there is no corpse in the grave! For Christ, being raised from the dead, has become the first fruits of those who sleep. To him be glory and might to the ages of ages. Amen.

I absolutely love this Homily - always look forward to it every easter. Maybe because it articulates what the Resurrection means to us better than anyone else has been able to say.
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 01:55:01 AM »

Guys,,

I know the theological and symbolical importance, however, my question or confusion is that
the writer of the gospel said, it was Moses and Elijah, they are both alive, when they should be in fact still dead until the first resurrection.

the point's raised so far is: Moses is dead because it was written, Elijah was alive because he was brought up to heaven, however, since he too is subject to ancestral sin, he should be dead as well until the first resurrection, but due to the grace of God, he did not experience death.

my question is that How this is so, since Christ has not yet gave his life yet, and since Christ should be the first one to be raised from the dead. Did any of the Fathers said that Christ can apply the fruits of his resurrection even before this not happen yet?

thanks
marlo



 


What I was told about the Holy Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, was that that Christ was seen with Moses and Elijah. We know that Moses has died, because it is so written.  However, Elijah, was taken up to Heaven in a chariot pulled by horses of flame.  When Christ revealed Himself between these two entities, Moses represented the "dead" and Elijah represented the "living".  In other words, Christ was here to save both those who have passed away and those who are still alive.

...that's what I was taught.


Agreed.... and there was other important things being imparted to the apostles who witnessed it.  Christ was under attack as a charlatan.  But here we see Moses and Elijah appearing to Him.  Moses represented the Law and Elijah represented the Prophets.  The appearances were a divine approval of Christ to the apostles.  He was not one of the many false Messiahs around at the time.  He was the summation of the Law and the Prophets.  Both bowed down to Him.
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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2009, 03:51:30 AM »

Guys,,

I know the theological and symbolical importance, however, my question or confusion is that
the writer of the gospel said, it was Moses and Elijah, they are both alive, when they should be in fact still dead until the first resurrection.

the point's raised so far is: Moses is dead because it was written, Elijah was alive because he was brought up to heaven, however, since he too is subject to ancestral sin, he should be dead as well until the first resurrection, but due to the grace of God, he did not experience death.

my question is that How this is so, since Christ has not yet gave his life yet, and since Christ should be the first one to be raised from the dead. Did any of the Fathers said that Christ can apply the fruits of his resurrection even before this not happen yet?

thanks
marlo
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ...  How do you understand it?  Is it an event constrained entirely to the time of human history, or is it an event that, though it happened in time, also transcends time?
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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 04:26:20 AM »

my question or confusion is that
the writer of the gospel said, it was Moses and Elijah, they are both alive, when they should be in fact still dead until the first resurrection.

The dead are not asleep or unconscious.  You'll find other instances in the Scriptures of the dead communicating with the living.

For example, in the first book of Samuel,  King Saul communicates with the deceased prophet (chapter 28)

And in 2 Maccabees the prophet Jeremiah appears in a dream to Judas Maccabeus and encourges him to victory in the war.
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2009, 07:05:10 AM »

Please understand that i'm not an eastern orthodox and i'm the one asking, so What is the teaching ?
Guys,,

I know the theological and symbolical importance, however, my question or confusion is that
the writer of the gospel said, it was Moses and Elijah, they are both alive, when they should be in fact still dead until the first resurrection.

the point's raised so far is: Moses is dead because it was written, Elijah was alive because he was brought up to heaven, however, since he too is subject to ancestral sin, he should be dead as well until the first resurrection, but due to the grace of God, he did not experience death.

my question is that How this is so, since Christ has not yet gave his life yet, and since Christ should be the first one to be raised from the dead. Did any of the Fathers said that Christ can apply the fruits of his resurrection even before this not happen yet?

thanks
marlo
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ...  How do you understand it?  Is it an event constrained entirely to the time of human history, or is it an event that, though it happened in time, also transcends time?
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2009, 07:09:40 AM »

I know, i know, He is the God of the Living and not of the dead..
but this did not answer my question, We all know that Christ descended to the dead and preach and saved them, and some of them brought to heaven (Adam and Eve)

but why are these Old testament prophets are already enjoying the fruits of resurrection, before Christ died and was resurrected?

my question or confusion is that
the writer of the gospel said, it was Moses and Elijah, they are both alive, when they should be in fact still dead until the first resurrection.

The dead are not asleep or unconscious.  You'll find other instances in the Scriptures of the dead communicating with the living.

For example, in the first book of Samuel,  King Saul communicates with the deceased prophet (chapter 28)

And in 2 Maccabees the prophet Jeremiah appears in a dream to Judas Maccabeus and encourges him to victory in the war.

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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 01:38:45 PM »

I know, i know, He is the God of the Living and not of the dead..
but this did not answer my question, We all know that Christ descended to the dead and preach and saved them, and some of them brought to heaven (Adam and Eve)

but why are these Old testament prophets are already enjoying the fruits of resurrection, before Christ died and was resurrected?

They're not.

Enoch and Elijah we taken, to return as the two witnesses of Revelation 11, when they will be martyred and then resurrected.  Moses still has not resurrected.
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 03:24:35 PM »

Please understand that i'm not an eastern orthodox and i'm the one asking, so What is the teaching ?
Guys,,

I know the theological and symbolical importance, however, my question or confusion is that
the writer of the gospel said, it was Moses and Elijah, they are both alive, when they should be in fact still dead until the first resurrection.

the point's raised so far is: Moses is dead because it was written, Elijah was alive because he was brought up to heaven, however, since he too is subject to ancestral sin, he should be dead as well until the first resurrection, but due to the grace of God, he did not experience death.

my question is that How this is so, since Christ has not yet gave his life yet, and since Christ should be the first one to be raised from the dead. Did any of the Fathers said that Christ can apply the fruits of his resurrection even before this not happen yet?

thanks
marlo
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ...  How do you understand it?  Is it an event constrained entirely to the time of human history, or is it an event that, though it happened in time, also transcends time?
I asked you my questions because your answers will go a long way toward helping me determine how I should answer your questions.  For one, I think you need to understand first our concept of the interaction between eternity and time.  You appear from your inquiry to be able to see Christ's work of salvation only within its context in the time of human history.  Without even the most basic comprehension of how Christ's resurrection is ALSO an event occurring outside of time as we know it, you will most likely fail to understand my replies to your questions.
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2009, 04:25:42 PM »

Please understand that i'm not an eastern orthodox and i'm the one asking, so What is the teaching ?
Guys,,

I know the theological and symbolical importance, however, my question or confusion is that
the writer of the gospel said, it was Moses and Elijah, they are both alive, when they should be in fact still dead until the first resurrection.

the point's raised so far is: Moses is dead because it was written, Elijah was alive because he was brought up to heaven, however, since he too is subject to ancestral sin, he should be dead as well until the first resurrection, but due to the grace of God, he did not experience death.

my question is that How this is so, since Christ has not yet gave his life yet, and since Christ should be the first one to be raised from the dead. Did any of the Fathers said that Christ can apply the fruits of his resurrection even before this not happen yet?

thanks
marlo
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ...  How do you understand it?  Is it an event constrained entirely to the time of human history, or is it an event that, though it happened in time, also transcends time?
I asked you my questions because your answers will go a long way toward helping me determine how I should answer your questions.  For one, I think you need to understand first our concept of the interaction between eternity and time.  You appear from your inquiry to be able to see Christ's work of salvation only within its context in the time of human history.  Without even the most basic comprehension of how Christ's resurrection is ALSO an event occurring outside of time as we know it, you will most likely fail to understand my replies to your questions.

I will have to admit, that I don't know how the eternity of Christ's Resurrection bears on the question at hand on Moses and Elijah on Mt. Tabor.
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2009, 05:17:48 PM »

I will have to admit, that I don't know how the eternity of Christ's Resurrection bears on the question at hand on Moses and Elijah on Mt. Tabor.

Hint, think back to the Burning Bush, "I am the God of the Living and not of the Dead."
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2009, 05:24:10 PM »

I will have to admit, that I don't know how the eternity of Christ's Resurrection bears on the question at hand on Moses and Elijah on Mt. Tabor.

Hint, think back to the Burning Bush, "I am the God of the Living and not of the Dead."

I understand that, but I don't understand it's bearing on the question at hand: the souls of the departed before the resurrection didn't continue to exist after death because of a prior application of the Resurrection to them a la the IC.  There are plenty of Fathers who speak of the seperation of the soul/spirit from the body as the anecdote from the soul decaying with the body.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2009, 05:58:29 PM »

I understand that, but I don't understand it's bearing on the question at hand: the souls of the departed before the resurrection didn't continue to exist after death because of a prior application of the Resurrection to them a la the IC.  There are plenty of Fathers who speak of the seperation of the soul/spirit from the body as the anecdote from the soul decaying with the body.
Anecdote or antidote?
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2009, 06:34:12 PM »

Guys,,

I know the theological and symbolical importance, however, my question or confusion is that
the writer of the gospel said, it was Moses and Elijah, they are both alive, when they should be in fact still dead until the first resurrection.

the point's raised so far is: Moses is dead because it was written, Elijah was alive because he was brought up to heaven, however, since he too is subject to ancestral sin, he should be dead as well until the first resurrection, but due to the grace of God, he did not experience death.

my question is that How this is so, since Christ has not yet gave his life yet, and since Christ should be the first one to be raised from the dead. Did any of the Fathers said that Christ can apply the fruits of his resurrection even before this not happen yet?

thanks
marlo



 


What I was told about the Holy Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, was that that Christ was seen with Moses and Elijah. We know that Moses has died, because it is so written.  However, Elijah, was taken up to Heaven in a chariot pulled by horses of flame.  When Christ revealed Himself between these two entities, Moses represented the "dead" and Elijah represented the "living".  In other words, Christ was here to save both those who have passed away and those who are still alive.

...that's what I was taught.


Agreed.... and there was other important things being imparted to the apostles who witnessed it.  Christ was under attack as a charlatan.  But here we see Moses and Elijah appearing to Him.  Moses represented the Law and Elijah represented the Prophets.  The appearances were a divine approval of Christ to the apostles.  He was not one of the many false Messiahs around at the time.  He was the summation of the Law and the Prophets.  Both bowed down to Him.

I understand your question but do not know myself..

I am waiting for some enlightenment from some of our posters.
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2009, 06:38:15 PM »

Regarding the significance of Elijah and Moses, read the hymnody of the Vigil (Great Vespers and Matins) for the Transfiguration.
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« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2009, 03:39:42 AM »

who are the two guys standing with Christ, are they angels?

the gospel said "And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him."
is this just like a symbolic illusion made to appear Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus?

I know, i know, He is the God of the Living and not of the dead..
but this did not answer my question, We all know that Christ descended to the dead and preach and saved them, and some of them brought to heaven (Adam and Eve)

but why are these Old testament prophets are already enjoying the fruits of resurrection, before Christ died and was resurrected?

They're not.

Enoch and Elijah we taken, to return as the two witnesses of Revelation 11, when they will be martyred and then resurrected.  Moses still has not resurrected.
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« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2009, 03:46:34 AM »

Regarding the significance of Elijah and Moses, read the hymnody of the Vigil (Great Vespers and Matins) for the Transfiguration.

To which I'll add: Look at any icon of the Transfiguration, and read the inscriptions, if they are legible.
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« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2009, 03:47:45 AM »

This is something i would like to understand, you said: Christ's resurrection is ALSO an event occurring outside of time, if that's the case, this make sense, and i would like to know which Church Father said something like this, I also know that some EO would say that the soul decayed with the body, which is a contradiction to the above statement, unless God can apply the resurrection to individual outside time

thanks
marlo


Please understand that i'm not an eastern orthodox and i'm the one asking, so What is the teaching ?
Guys,,

I know the theological and symbolical importance, however, my question or confusion is that
the writer of the gospel said, it was Moses and Elijah, they are both alive, when they should be in fact still dead until the first resurrection.

the point's raised so far is: Moses is dead because it was written, Elijah was alive because he was brought up to heaven, however, since he too is subject to ancestral sin, he should be dead as well until the first resurrection, but due to the grace of God, he did not experience death.

my question is that How this is so, since Christ has not yet gave his life yet, and since Christ should be the first one to be raised from the dead. Did any of the Fathers said that Christ can apply the fruits of his resurrection even before this not happen yet?

thanks
marlo
The Resurrection of Jesus Christ...  How do you understand it?  Is it an event constrained entirely to the time of human history, or is it an event that, though it happened in time, also transcends time?
I asked you my questions because your answers will go a long way toward helping me determine how I should answer your questions.  For one, I think you need to understand first our concept of the interaction between eternity and time.  You appear from your inquiry to be able to see Christ's work of salvation only within its context in the time of human history.  Without even the most basic comprehension of how Christ's resurrection is ALSO an event occurring outside of time as we know it, you will most likely fail to understand my replies to your questions.
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« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2009, 03:52:00 AM »

Hi  brother

Well, as i have said above, I know the theological and symbolical importance, My question is regarding the Orthodox Teaching on the Dead, if Moses and Elijah are supposed to be still dead until the first resurrection, then who is the two guys with Christ. The Gospel said, it was moses and Elijah, describe as living and conversing with him, Is this an angel, an illusion, or what?

thanks
marlo




Regarding the significance of Elijah and Moses, read the hymnody of the Vigil (Great Vespers and Matins) for the Transfiguration.

To which I'll add: Look at any icon of the Transfiguration, and read the inscriptions, if they are legible.
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2009, 08:39:40 AM »

Hi  brother

Well, as i have said above, I know the theological and symbolical importance, My question is regarding the Orthodox Teaching on the Dead, if Moses and Elijah are supposed to be still dead until the first resurrection, then who is the two guys with Christ. The Gospel said, it was moses and Elijah, describe as living and conversing with him, Is this an angel, an illusion, or what?

thanks
marlo

Samuel was also dead when Saul saw and recognised him. The apostles did not see the resurrected bodies of Moses and Elijah, but only their immortal spirits, which took human form to be visible.

Moses and Elijah's spirits were brought back by Jesus and for Jesus. We know that Jesus' body would be glorified after His passion and resurrection, but this did not prevent Jesus from  being transfigured, which was another form glorification prior to His passion. Likewise, Jesus interpreted the Transfiguration as a foreshadowing of His glorification and the coming of the kingdom of God. Thus, Moses and Elijah's presence predicted that Jesus would give life to them through His exodus that would occur in Jerusalem. What the apostles witnessed was a glimpse of the things that would occur at the end of times.

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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2009, 02:08:06 AM »

Hi brother

thanks for the answer, i would like to clear out what you mean of Moses and Elijah Spirit, is this the human spirit or the soul which you meant, coz, the spirit returns to God when the person dies as per scripture, and the soul as iAlmistry would say that will decay with the body (as he reference some Fathers as his source). If this is their soul, i believe there is an Orthodox tradition that say that the souls of the saints and prophets are in prison waiting for the christ, in which after christ died he went to the dead and preach to them. I also remember that these souls were freed by christ and brought to heaven as the best example i can give is Adam and Eve.

Now, whether it is their spirit or soul, they should still be in fact dead until the first resurrection, or the soul should still be in prison, if God returned them, did they already received the fruits of christ resurrection?

thanks
marlo





Hi  brother

Well, as i have said above, I know the theological and symbolical importance, My question is regarding the Orthodox Teaching on the Dead, if Moses and Elijah are supposed to be still dead until the first resurrection, then who is the two guys with Christ. The Gospel said, it was moses and Elijah, describe as living and conversing with him, Is this an angel, an illusion, or what?

thanks
marlo

Samuel was also dead when Saul saw and recognised him. The apostles did not see the resurrected bodies of Moses and Elijah, but only their immortal spirits, which took human form to be visible.

Moses and Elijah's spirits were brought back by Jesus and for Jesus. We know that Jesus' body would be glorified after His passion and resurrection, but this did not prevent Jesus from  being transfigured, which was another form glorification prior to His passion. Likewise, Jesus interpreted the Transfiguration as a foreshadowing of His glorification and the coming of the kingdom of God. Thus, Moses and Elijah's presence predicted that Jesus would give life to them through His exodus that would occur in Jerusalem. What the apostles witnessed was a glimpse of the things that would occur at the end of times.


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« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2009, 04:02:08 AM »

Hi brother

thanks for the answer, i would like to clear out what you mean of Moses and Elijah Spirit, is this the human spirit or the soul which you meant, coz, the spirit returns to God when the person dies as per scripture, and the soul as iAlmistry would say that will decay with the body (as he reference some Fathers as his source). If this is their soul, i believe there is an Orthodox tradition that say that the souls of the saints and prophets are in prison waiting for the christ, in which after christ died he went to the dead and preach to them. I also remember that these souls were freed by christ and brought to heaven as the best example i can give is Adam and Eve.

Now, whether it is their spirit or soul, they should still be in fact dead until the first resurrection, or the soul should still be in prison, if God returned them, did they already received the fruits of christ resurrection?

thanks
marlo


Hi Marlo,


I mean immortal and incorporeal being of Moses and Elijah when I use the term Spirit in a similar sense of soul. What the apostles saw were actually Moses and Elijah rather than angels or other beings.

The Orthodox tradition says the souls in prison await the resurrection, but there are exceptions to this rule. If God wanted Elijah and Moses to come back to this world and give testimony to Jesus, who could have stopped Him? Although traditional tenets and views connote generalizations, we know that there are exceptions to them. For instance, Matthew states that many bodies of the saints that had slept woke up when Jesus breathed out His last (Matthew 27:52). Thus, they experienced even bodily resurrection before Christ's resurrection. John relates how Jesus brought Lazarus back to life even before His passion (chapter 11). Since Jesus is the author of life, the  significant thing is that some people could temporarily come back to life and experience resurrection through Jesus.
 
Remember what I said in my previous post: Jesus Himself taught that the Christ would be exalted and glorified after His passion, but this did not deny His exaltation and glorification on a mount many days before His passion. If we follow your reasoning, we cannot consider the Transfiguration accurate and true as it presumably contradicts Jesus' statement about the time of His glorification.

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« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2009, 08:53:54 AM »

I understand that, but I don't understand it's bearing on the question at hand: the souls of the departed before the resurrection didn't continue to exist after death because of a prior application of the Resurrection to them a la the IC.  There are plenty of Fathers who speak of the seperation of the soul/spirit from the body as the anecdote from the soul decaying with the body.
Anecdote or antidote?


Antidote.  The soul doesn't die with the body because it is seperated from it.

Btw, as Elijah isn't dead, his conversing with Christ on Tabor isn't a problem.  As for Moses, the problem is not of his existence, but him escaping from Hell/hades.  but as that is more a state than a place, that's not a problem either.
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« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2009, 08:57:23 AM »

Hi brother

thanks for the answer, i would like to clear out what you mean of Moses and Elijah Spirit, is this the human spirit or the soul which you meant, coz, the spirit returns to God when the person dies as per scripture, and the soul as iAlmistry would say that will decay with the body (as he reference some Fathers as his source). If this is their soul, i believe there is an Orthodox tradition that say that the souls of the saints and prophets are in prison waiting for the christ, in which after christ died he went to the dead and preach to them. I also remember that these souls were freed by christ and brought to heaven as the best example i can give is Adam and Eve.

Now, whether it is their spirit or soul, they should still be in fact dead until the first resurrection, or the soul should still be in prison, if God returned them, did they already received the fruits of christ resurrection?

thanks
marlo


Hi Marlo,


I mean immortal and incorporeal being of Moses and Elijah when I use the term Spirit in a similar sense of soul. What the apostles saw were actually Moses and Elijah rather than angels or other beings.

The Orthodox tradition says the souls in prison await the resurrection, but there are exceptions to this rule. If God wanted Elijah and Moses to come back to this world and give testimony to Jesus, who could have stopped Him? Although traditional tenets and views connote generalizations, we know that there are exceptions to them. For instance, Matthew states that many bodies of the saints that had slept woke up when Jesus breathed out His last (Matthew 27:52). Thus, they experienced even bodily resurrection before Christ's resurrection. John relates how Jesus brought Lazarus back to life even before His passion (chapter 11). Since Jesus is the author of life, the  significant thing is that some people could temporarily come back to life and experience resurrection through Jesus.
 
Remember what I said in my previous post: Jesus Himself taught that the Christ would be exalted and glorified after His passion, but this did not deny His exaltation and glorification on a mount many days before His passion. If we follow your reasoning, we cannot consider the Transfiguration accurate and true as it presumably contradicts Jesus' statement about the time of His glorification.



The difference being that the pre-Resurrection resurrections, those who rose, rose to fall asleep again.  Those who rise in Christ's resurrection (e.g. the Theotokos) do so never to fall asleep again.
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« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2009, 03:34:59 AM »

hi ialmistry

so, do you mean to say that the saints that had slept woke up when Jesus breathed out His last (Matthew 27:52)  died again? or this is a special case

thanks
marlo


Hi brother

thanks for the answer, i would like to clear out what you mean of Moses and Elijah Spirit, is this the human spirit or the soul which you meant, coz, the spirit returns to God when the person dies as per scripture, and the soul as iAlmistry would say that will decay with the body (as he reference some Fathers as his source). If this is their soul, i believe there is an Orthodox tradition that say that the souls of the saints and prophets are in prison waiting for the christ, in which after christ died he went to the dead and preach to them. I also remember that these souls were freed by christ and brought to heaven as the best example i can give is Adam and Eve.

Now, whether it is their spirit or soul, they should still be in fact dead until the first resurrection, or the soul should still be in prison, if God returned them, did they already received the fruits of christ resurrection?

thanks
marlo


Hi Marlo,


I mean immortal and incorporeal being of Moses and Elijah when I use the term Spirit in a similar sense of soul. What the apostles saw were actually Moses and Elijah rather than angels or other beings.

The Orthodox tradition says the souls in prison await the resurrection, but there are exceptions to this rule. If God wanted Elijah and Moses to come back to this world and give testimony to Jesus, who could have stopped Him? Although traditional tenets and views connote generalizations, we know that there are exceptions to them. For instance, Matthew states that many bodies of the saints that had slept woke up when Jesus breathed out His last (Matthew 27:52). Thus, they experienced even bodily resurrection before Christ's resurrection. John relates how Jesus brought Lazarus back to life even before His passion (chapter 11). Since Jesus is the author of life, the  significant thing is that some people could temporarily come back to life and experience resurrection through Jesus.
 
Remember what I said in my previous post: Jesus Himself taught that the Christ would be exalted and glorified after His passion, but this did not deny His exaltation and glorification on a mount many days before His passion. If we follow your reasoning, we cannot consider the Transfiguration accurate and true as it presumably contradicts Jesus' statement about the time of His glorification.



The difference being that the pre-Resurrection resurrections, those who rose, rose to fall asleep again.  Those who rise in Christ's resurrection (e.g. the Theotokos) do so never to fall asleep again.
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« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2009, 03:48:32 AM »

Quote
so, do you mean to say that the saints that had slept woke up when Jesus breathed out His last (Matthew 27:52)  died again?


My understanding, marlo, is that they did. Lazarus, resurrected by Christ, went on to become the first bishop of Larnaca (then called Kition) in Cyprus, living about another thirty years after his resurrection. He died (again) and was buried in that city.
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« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2009, 03:41:25 PM »

What is the Eastern Orthodox teaching regarding the dead? especially before the resurrection of Jesus.
the gospel shows Jesus with Moses and Elijah in the Mountains but,  Both Moses and Elijah had been dead for centuries, and should remain in this state until the First Resurrection.

Why then they are shown alive in the gospel, did they already received the fruits of christ resurrection?

thanks
marlo

As has been said, Moses' spirit was made visible (or, rather, the disciples were made to see it), and Enoch, who'd been taken up bodily, was also seen.  Elijah (and Enoch, for that matter) were exceptions, as the rule is that all men departed this life exist in a separation of soul and body, which is unnatural and the last enemy to be destroyed by Christ.

Christ's harrowing of hell is problematic for the linear, western mind, especially when it takes in eastern Christian hymns that say things like "Christ emptied out hades."  On the one hand, we insist that the saints are outside time, as they are tasting of eternity.  On the other hand, we insist that there yet exists and element of "tension" to their existence, as they are still "waiting" for the resurrection and glorification of their physical bodies, which remain here on Earth, in space and time.

Christ bestowed life on those in the tombs when He trampled down death by His Death.  That is, He quickened the souls in hades and gave them a foretaste of the blessedness to come when we will all, body AND soul, be united to our God in our originally-intended, holistic state.  That Elijah was an exception to this temporally speaking, or that Moses was seen spiritually (for he had been enlivened spiritually by Christ when He harrowed hades) should not interfere at all with the ultimate τελος, or goal, of the final, bodily resurrection of all mankind from all ages.

Does that help?  Or have I just repeated what others have said without realizing it?
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