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Author Topic: St Francis of Assisi  (Read 15924 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2009, 12:49:49 AM »

Elder Joseph was baptized on Cyprus with the name "Frangiskos",  the Hellenized version of Francis.

Frangiskos ("Φραγγισκος") is a common name, particularly on the Islands and simply means "FranK" as in "the Frankish people". In the same way, the name "Germanos" (As in "St. Herman" and "St. Germanos") means "Germanic".
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« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2009, 12:56:40 AM »

I seriously looked into becoming Roman Catholic for about a period of six to nine months; I was probably one or two masses away from signing up for RCIA (working up the nerve and all that) when I heard about an Orthodox parish in town.

Regardless, I was going to be confirmed as "Francis" if I became Catholic.  There just was no other option for me, I felt.  I own several books about the man, as well as the old movie, "St. Francis of Assisi."  Might even keep an eye out for "Brother Sun, Sister Moon," which I saw in college.

Point being, I love the man.  I ordered the icon prints Dn. Lance linked to at one point, and the subdeacon at our church was nice enough to decoupage the St. Francis icon onto a piece of wood for me.  I still ask for his prayers privately.  It may just be something I have to work through now that I'm Orthodox, but I just feel a strong attachment to him.  Always have.

The article that some might be alluding to about why some Orthodox don't like St. Francis is probably this one.
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« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2009, 01:59:57 AM »

I was once told by a very traditional Orthodox priest that Francis only misunderstood God's call to rebuild his church. As we know it was an Eastern rite church he rebuilt. This priest said that God's Church is the Orthodox Church and He wanted Francis to rebuild his Orthodox church that had fallen in to disarray.

Do elaborate please Smiley

The story of Francis of Assisi is that he came upon a dilapidated church and heard God speak to him telling him to rebuild His church. It was an Eastern Rite Church. Hence the cross associated with him is an icon cross. This is the cross that remained in that church. According to the Latins, Francis eventually decided that God mean not to fix His church, but to fix His Church. So he went to the Pope to start his own order of monks to be defenders of the ancient Faith. But the Franciscans ended up going down a very different path.
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« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2009, 02:15:08 AM »

The story of Francis of Assisi is that he came upon a dilapidated church and heard God speak to him telling him to rebuild His church. It was an Eastern Rite Church. Hence the cross associated with him is an icon cross. This is the cross that remained in that church. According to the Latins, Francis eventually decided that God mean not to fix His church, but to fix His Church. So he went to the Pope to start his own order of monks to be defenders of the ancient Faith. But the Franciscans ended up going down a very different path.

The San Damiano Crucifix is indeed Byzantine Style Icon, but does that mean that the Church of San Damiano was necessarily an "Eastern Rite" Church? As I understand it, the inscription on the San Damiano Cross is in Latin only ("Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudeorum"). Why would an "Eastern Rite" Church have a Latin inscription on their Crucifix?
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« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2009, 04:17:25 AM »

I just wanted to throw my ring into the hat here and mention that St. Isaac of Syria is regarded as a Saint and venerated within Holy Orthodoxy, even though he is a "post-schism" saint, being from the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorian).  His writing spread and he was seen as a model Christian, hence becoming venerated despite canonical boundaries and being out of communion with the Church of Christ.

Also, are not some newer Orthodox saints venerated outside of Holy Orthodoxy, such as St. Elizabeth the New Martyr?  I know that she is at least commemorated in public monuments in the United Kingdom, but I suppose that does not equate with Anglican veneration, if the Anglicans even venerate saints anymore...

At any rate, does not the veneration of a Nestorian in the Orthodox Church reveal a potential for the eventual veneration of a post-schism Roman Catholic, provided that his or her life and writings managed to influence and spread into Orthodoxy?  Assuming that there was not anything overtly unorthodox about "St." Francis of Assisi, couldn't his eventual canonization be possible?  I would venture to guess that there were probably some unorthodox things about our blessed Nestorian saint anyway, so perhaps Francis' total orthodoxy wouldn't be a requirement.
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« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2009, 12:05:12 PM »

The Orthodox Church has a saint much like Francis of Assissi.  He is the Russian St. Seraphim of Sarov.  Much of his life parallels that of Francis.  Read more about him and if, in fact, you do wish to change your chrismation (baptismal) name, this would be a good one.

Nothing wrong with Christopher, though. That's my name, too. Grin

Oh yeah, I have a spiritual biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov and I pray to him as well. He is my favorite Russian Saint. My favorite Saints of all time and all places is St. Isaac The Syrian, St. Maximus the Confessor, St. Francis of Assisi and of course St. Seraphim of Sarov. I'm part Russian on my Father's side and part Irish on my mother's side.

I have an Icon of St. Christopher and I just got it blessed this past weekend. I pray to him to bare Christ well.
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« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2009, 01:00:42 PM »

Oh yeah, I have a spiritual biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov and I pray to him as well. He is my favorite Russian Saint.
I love St Seraphim! I am also fond of St Nektarios and St Nicholai Velimirovich. And there are countless others. But for some reason, I never warmed up to St Francis of Assisi--not even when I was Roman Catholic. I do not know the reason.
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« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2009, 01:06:14 PM »

Oh yeah, I have a spiritual biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov and I pray to him as well. He is my favorite Russian Saint.
I love St Seraphim! I am also fond of St Nektarios and St Nicholai Velimirovich. And there are countless others. But for some reason, I never warmed up to St Francis of Assisi--not even when I was Roman Catholic. I do not know the reason.

I could not guess... but for me there are so many similarities between St. Seraphim and St. Francis that I am surprised that St. Francis isn't more warmly received among the Orthodox. I can understand that he might not be recognized as a saint because of the schism but the tenor of opposition to him seems intemperate to me. There is something else going on here which I just can't seem to figure out.
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« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2009, 01:22:13 PM »

There is something else going on here which I just can't seem to figure out.
Perhaps it has something to do with the stigmata. I am not aware of any Orthodox saints experiencing such a phenomenon. But I could be wrong.
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« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2009, 01:39:10 PM »

Tangent on the liturgical practices of New Skete (except as they relate specifically to the skete's veneration of Francis of Assisi) moved here:  Liturgical Practices of New Skete
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« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2009, 02:10:37 PM »

There is something else going on here which I just can't seem to figure out.
Perhaps it has something to do with the stigmata. I am not aware of any Orthodox saints experiencing such a phenomenon. But I could be wrong.

Here's something interesting I came across while looking for something else. Bp. KALLISTOS draws a similarity between East and West in the much-debated matter of stigmata:

    It is sometimes said, and with a certain truth, that bodily transfiguration by divine light corresponds, among Orthodox saints, to the receiving of the stigmata among western saints. We must now, however, draw too absolute a contrast in this matter. Instances of bodily glorification are found in the [W]est, for example, in the case of an Englishwoman, Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941): a friend records how on one occasion her face could be seen transfigured with light (the whole account recalls Saint Seraphim: see The Letters of Evelyn Underhill, edited by Charles Williams, Lonedon, 1943, p. 37). Similarly, in the [E]ast stimatization is not unknown: in the Coptic life of Saint Macarius of Egypt, it is said that a cherub appeared to him, "took the measure of his chest," and "crucified him on the earth."

Ware, Fr. Timothy. The Orthodox Church. (NY: Penguin Books, 1963), pp. 238-9. (fn).

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« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2009, 02:15:02 PM »

The San Damiano Crucifix is indeed Byzantine Style Icon, but does that mean that the Church of San Damiano was necessarily an "Eastern Rite" Church? As I understand it, the inscription on the San Damiano Cross is in Latin only ("Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudeorum"). Why would an "Eastern Rite" Church have a Latin inscription on their Crucifix?

My Orthodox Mission (i.e. Temple) has a San Damiano Crucifix as do I hanging above my icons at home in my icon corner. Does anyone have a link to Orthodox discussion the facts of this Icon?

Thanks.
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« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2009, 02:21:09 PM »

Bp. KALLISTOS draws a similarity between East and West in the much-debated matter of stigmata:
I am wondering if this is a personal opinion of His Grace.
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« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2009, 02:25:26 PM »

What of the allegations that St. Francis exulted in his own self-sanctity rather than give glory to God?  (Highlight used to emphasize the fact that I see this as mere allegation, something that hasn't been proven yet, IMO.)

I know of one person who constantly claims that Francis exalted himself on the same level as Jesus.  Having originally been a Franciscan before my conversion to Orthodoxy, I never saw that in any of Francis' writings.  I remember Francis saying that if any of his friars were to find a copy of the Gospels lying on the floor, they were to pick it up, kiss it, and replace it on the altar.

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« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2009, 02:27:37 PM »

Oh yeah, I have a spiritual biography of St. Seraphim of Sarov and I pray to him as well. He is my favorite Russian Saint.
I love St Seraphim! I am also fond of St Nektarios and St Nicholai Velimirovich. And there are countless others. But for some reason, I never warmed up to St Francis of Assisi--not even when I was Roman Catholic. I do not know the reason.

I could not guess... but for me there are so many similarities between St. Seraphim and St. Francis that I am surprised that St. Francis isn't more warmly received among the Orthodox. I can understand that he might not be recognized as a saint because of the schism but the tenor of opposition to him seems intemperate to me. There is something else going on here which I just can't seem to figure out.
Before you continue to act so incredulous, have you read this article that DavidBryan linked above?  A Comparison: Francis of Assisi and St. Seraphim of Sarov (OrthodoxInfo.com).  I personally don't agree or disagree with anything written there, but the essay should give you a good idea of why many Orthodox don't like Francis of Assisi.
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« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2009, 02:44:39 PM »

The San Damiano Crucifix is indeed Byzantine Style Icon, but does that mean that the Church of San Damiano was necessarily an "Eastern Rite" Church? As I understand it, the inscription on the San Damiano Cross is in Latin only ("Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudeorum"). Why would an "Eastern Rite" Church have a Latin inscription on their Crucifix?

My Orthodox Mission (i.e. Temple) has a San Damiano Crucifix as do I hanging above my icons at home in my icon corner. Does anyone have a link to Orthodox discussion the facts of this Icon?

Thanks.

Well, this isn't an Orthodox source,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_damiano_cross

but what it says is Orthodox.  As for the Serbian origin, I don't know about that historically.
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« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2009, 03:01:35 PM »

Before you continue to act so incredulous, have you read this article that DavidBryan linked above?  A Comparison: Francis of Assisi and St. Seraphim of Sarov (OrthodoxInfo.com).  I personally don't agree or disagree with anything written there, but the essay should give you a good idea of why many Orthodox don't like Francis of Assisi.

No, I've read it I just think that it's modernist polemical propaganda. Are you now to also chalk up Saint Macarius of Egypt as satanic too? Sorry I'm just not buying this.

Honestly the dislike of mortification within modern Orthodox circles is strange and unorthodox to me.
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« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2009, 03:13:33 PM »

Before you continue to act so incredulous, have you read this article that DavidBryan linked above?  A Comparison: Francis of Assisi and St. Seraphim of Sarov (OrthodoxInfo.com).  I personally don't agree or disagree with anything written there, but the essay should give you a good idea of why many Orthodox don't like Francis of Assisi.

No, I've read it I just think that it's modernist polemical propaganda. Are you now to also chalk up Saint Macarius of Egypt as satanic too? Sorry I'm just not buying this.

Honestly the dislike of mortification within modern Orthodox circles is strange and unorthodox to me.

I think the problems with St. Francis are more from the Franciscans, and their involvement with the Crusades and the Inquisition.
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« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2009, 03:30:49 PM »

No, I've read it I just think that it's modernist polemical propaganda. Are you now to also chalk up Saint Macarius of Egypt as satanic too? Sorry I'm just not buying this.

Honestly the dislike of mortification within modern Orthodox circles is strange and unorthodox to me.

I'm going to have to agree on this point.  I do not see anything within Orthodox theology that condemns self-mortification.  I understand that you could argue that it is "gnostic" in posture and that Christ came to heal and offer salvation to all of material creation as well, including our bodies, but I am fairly certain that some Orthodox monastics have inflicted physical pain to reduce passions and temptations within themselves.  Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
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« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2009, 03:44:42 PM »

No, I've read it I just think that it's modernist polemical propaganda. Are you now to also chalk up Saint Macarius of Egypt as satanic too? Sorry I'm just not buying this.

Honestly the dislike of mortification within modern Orthodox circles is strange and unorthodox to me.

I'm going to have to agree on this point.  I do not see anything within Orthodox theology that condemns self-mortification.  I understand that you could argue that it is "gnostic" in posture and that Christ came to heal and offer salvation to all of material creation as well, including our bodies, but I am fairly certain that some Orthodox monastics have inflicted physical pain to reduce passions and temptations within themselves.  Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

The only thing I would say is that even if we found some modern Orthodox who don't disparage mortification we have to recognize that mortification per se isn't being directly criticized with one's disliking of Stigmata... it's the fact that the heavenly powers would wound the bodies of the devout that might be thought to be out of character with Orthodox therapeutic notions of the presence to the divine. I can understand the point but I tend to share Bp. KALLISTOS' view that we shouldn't be too hasty into jumping to rash conclusions regarding such things.
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« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2009, 04:37:42 PM »

but I am fairly certain that some Orthodox monastics have inflicted physical pain to reduce passions and temptations within themselves.  Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
You are correct. Have you ever read "The Ladder od Divine Ascent" by St John Climacus? It is very good.
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« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2009, 04:38:56 PM »

I think the problems with St. Francis are more from the Franciscans, and their involvement with the Crusades and the Inquisition.
...and today's modernism.  Sad
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« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2009, 04:50:42 PM »

I think the problems with St. Francis are more from the Franciscans, and their involvement with the Crusades and the Inquisition.
...and today's modernism.  Sad

ah, yes...a Crusade and Inquisition of a different sort.  Or is it? Sad
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« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2009, 05:06:01 PM »

I think the problems with St. Francis are more from the Franciscans, and their involvement with the Crusades and the Inquisition.
...and today's modernism.  Sad

ah, yes...a Crusade and Inquisition of a different sort.  Or is it? Sad

Correct if I am in error but I was under the impression that it was the Dominicans who operated the Inquisition?
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« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2009, 05:47:24 PM »

Dominicans were more common but Franciscans were involved also.
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« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2009, 02:47:10 PM »

You are correct. Have you ever read "The Ladder od Divine Ascent" by St John Climacus? It is very good.

I actually just ordered this last week from Holy Transfiguration Monastery.  I should be getting it on Monday!
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« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2009, 03:03:04 PM »

You are correct. Have you ever read "The Ladder od Divine Ascent" by St John Climacus? It is very good.

I actually just ordered this last week from Holy Transfiguration Monastery.  I should be getting it on Monday!
Read it slowly. It is very deep.  Smiley
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« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2009, 07:49:38 PM »

The story of Francis of Assisi is that he came upon a dilapidated church and heard God speak to him telling him to rebuild His church. It was an Eastern Rite Church. Hence the cross associated with him is an icon cross. This is the cross that remained in that church. According to the Latins, Francis eventually decided that God mean not to fix His church, but to fix His Church. So he went to the Pope to start his own order of monks to be defenders of the ancient Faith. But the Franciscans ended up going down a very different path.

The San Damiano Crucifix is indeed Byzantine Style Icon, but does that mean that the Church of San Damiano was necessarily an "Eastern Rite" Church? As I understand it, the inscription on the San Damiano Cross is in Latin only ("Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudeorum"). Why would an "Eastern Rite" Church have a Latin inscription on their Crucifix?

I am also interested in what is the source that San Damiano was "an Eastern Rite Church".  Could Nigula or anyone else who might have information on this claim please post a link or title? 

Thank you in advance.

Ebor
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« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2009, 10:08:17 PM »

I'm also having a hard time seeing how San Damiano could have been an Eastern rite church.  Assisi was practically razed in the 6th century by the Ostrogoths and, by the time of the Great Schism, was firmly in the Ghibelline camp and previously had been under the rule of the Lombards and the Franks. 
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« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2009, 10:24:10 PM »

I'm also having a hard time seeing how San Damiano could have been an Eastern rite church.  Assisi was practically razed in the 6th century by the Ostrogoths and, by the time of the Great Schism, was firmly in the Ghibelline camp and previously had been under the rule of the Lombards and the Franks. 

I have to agree.  Just based on sheer geography and the history of the region, I would be shocked to learn that San Damiano was an Eastern Rite Church.
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« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2009, 12:03:52 AM »

I just wanted to throw my ring into the hat here and mention that St. Isaac of Syria is regarded as a Saint and venerated within Holy Orthodoxy, even though he is a "post-schism" saint, being from the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorian).  His writing spread and he was seen as a model Christian, hence becoming venerated despite canonical boundaries and being out of communion with the Church of Christ.

Also, are not some newer Orthodox saints venerated outside of Holy Orthodoxy, such as St. Elizabeth the New Martyr?  I know that she is at least commemorated in public monuments in the United Kingdom, but I suppose that does not equate with Anglican veneration, if the Anglicans even venerate saints anymore...

At any rate, does not the veneration of a Nestorian in the Orthodox Church reveal a potential for the eventual veneration of a post-schism Roman Catholic, provided that his or her life and writings managed to influence and spread into Orthodoxy?  Assuming that there was not anything overtly unorthodox about "St." Francis of Assisi, couldn't his eventual canonization be possible?  I would venture to guess that there were probably some unorthodox things about our blessed Nestorian saint anyway, so perhaps Francis' total orthodoxy wouldn't be a requirement.

Did anyone have anything to say about this?  I honestly just thought I'd get at least one bite...
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« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2009, 12:43:04 AM »

The story of Francis of Assisi is that he came upon a dilapidated church and heard God speak to him telling him to rebuild His church. It was an Eastern Rite Church. Hence the cross associated with him is an icon cross. This is the cross that remained in that church. According to the Latins, Francis eventually decided that God mean not to fix His church, but to fix His Church. So he went to the Pope to start his own order of monks to be defenders of the ancient Faith. But the Franciscans ended up going down a very different path.

The San Damiano Crucifix is indeed Byzantine Style Icon, but does that mean that the Church of San Damiano was necessarily an "Eastern Rite" Church? As I understand it, the inscription on the San Damiano Cross is in Latin only ("Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudeorum"). Why would an "Eastern Rite" Church have a Latin inscription on their Crucifix?

I am also interested in what is the source that San Damiano was "an Eastern Rite Church".  Could Nigula or anyone else who might have information on this claim please post a link or title? 

Thank you in advance.

Ebor

I'm also having a hard time seeing how San Damiano could have been an Eastern rite church.  Assisi was practically razed in the 6th century by the Ostrogoths and, by the time of the Great Schism, was firmly in the Ghibelline camp and previously had been under the rule of the Lombards and the Franks. 

I'm also having a hard time seeing how San Damiano could have been an Eastern rite church.  Assisi was practically razed in the 6th century by the Ostrogoths and, by the time of the Great Schism, was firmly in the Ghibelline camp and previously had been under the rule of the Lombards and the Franks. 

I have to agree.  Just based on sheer geography and the history of the region, I would be shocked to learn that San Damiano was an Eastern Rite Church.

Did the source say it was an Eastern Rite Church?  I think the claim was just that the style of cross had been introduced from the East.  The Latin Poles had no problem taking an Eastern Theotokos, which the Black Madonna is, as their icon (quite literally).
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« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2009, 12:50:04 AM »

I just wanted to throw my ring into the hat here and mention that St. Isaac of Syria is regarded as a Saint and venerated within Holy Orthodoxy, even though he is a "post-schism" saint, being from the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorian).  His writing spread and he was seen as a model Christian, hence becoming venerated despite canonical boundaries and being out of communion with the Church of Christ.

Also, are not some newer Orthodox saints venerated outside of Holy Orthodoxy, such as St. Elizabeth the New Martyr?  I know that she is at least commemorated in public monuments in the United Kingdom, but I suppose that does not equate with Anglican veneration, if the Anglicans even venerate saints anymore...

At any rate, does not the veneration of a Nestorian in the Orthodox Church reveal a potential for the eventual veneration of a post-schism Roman Catholic, provided that his or her life and writings managed to influence and spread into Orthodoxy?  Assuming that there was not anything overtly unorthodox about "St." Francis of Assisi, couldn't his eventual canonization be possible?  I would venture to guess that there were probably some unorthodox things about our blessed Nestorian saint anyway, so perhaps Francis' total orthodoxy wouldn't be a requirement.

Did anyone have anything to say about this?  I honestly just thought I'd get at least one bite...
Did Isaac the Syrian support wholeheartedly a papacy that was the very cause of schism? Wink
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« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2009, 01:26:03 AM »

Did Isaac the Syrian support wholeheartedly a papacy that was the very cause of schism? Wink

Nope.  He just "wholeheartedly" supported the Nestorian heresies that caused the first schism in the Apostolic Church since the formation of the Creed. Wink

And just to clarify, this was St. Isaac of Syria, not St. Isaac the Syrian.  They are two different saints, but both of equally blessed memory!
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« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2009, 02:02:55 AM »

Did the source say it was an Eastern Rite Church?  I think the claim was just that the style of cross had been introduced from the East. 

No source for the claim has been given. The person who stated that it was, Nigula (a former admin here), did not give any information to support that assertion that San Damiano was an Eastern Rite Church.  In his post from the 22nd is the following quote:

"The story of Francis of Assisi is that he came upon a dilapidated church and heard God speak to him telling him to rebuild His church. It was an Eastern Rite Church. Hence the cross associated with him is an icon cross."

The request is that some source to back up this statement be given.

Ebor
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« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2009, 03:29:53 AM »

By the way, I really like your avatar.  Are those beagles or hounds?  I have 2 beagles.
Thanks for noticing. Smiley  I'm not really sure what breed of dogs they are.  I just copied the pic from www.ihasahotdog.com.
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« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2009, 10:56:29 AM »

Did Isaac the Syrian support wholeheartedly a papacy that was the very cause of schism? Wink

Nope.  He just "wholeheartedly" supported the Nestorian heresies that caused the first schism in the Apostolic Church since the formation of the Creed. Wink

And just to clarify, this was St. Isaac of Syria, not St. Isaac the Syrian.  They are two different saints, but both of equally blessed memory!

While he was Assyrian, nothing in St. Isaac's writing hint of Nestorianism.  He was not, however, in communion with any Chalcedonian Patriarchate.

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« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2009, 03:40:30 PM »

I just wanted to throw my ring into the hat here and mention that St. Isaac of Syria is regarded as a Saint and venerated within Holy Orthodoxy, even though he is a "post-schism" saint, being from the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorian).  His writing spread and he was seen as a model Christian, hence becoming venerated despite canonical boundaries and being out of communion with the Church of Christ.

Also, are not some newer Orthodox saints venerated outside of Holy Orthodoxy, such as St. Elizabeth the New Martyr?  I know that she is at least commemorated in public monuments in the United Kingdom, but I suppose that does not equate with Anglican veneration, if the Anglicans even venerate saints anymore...

At any rate, does not the veneration of a Nestorian in the Orthodox Church reveal a potential for the eventual veneration of a post-schism Roman Catholic, provided that his or her life and writings managed to influence and spread into Orthodoxy?  Assuming that there was not anything overtly unorthodox about "St." Francis of Assisi, couldn't his eventual canonization be possible?  I would venture to guess that there were probably some unorthodox things about our blessed Nestorian saint anyway, so perhaps Francis' total orthodoxy wouldn't be a requirement.
What basis would we have for glorifying Francis of Assisi?  A sense of his worthiness developed within the milieu of a misguided Roman piety that one is unwilling to give up to become Orthodox?

Personally, I don't see anything glaringly wrong with "St." Francis; I just don't see why I should make a big deal about him.
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« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2009, 05:40:38 PM »

Personally, I don't see anything glaringly wrong with "St." Francis; I just don't see why I should make a big deal about him.

I really do not know enough about him, I was just saying that if his life and writing were pious enough and Orthodox enough then Easterns depicting him as a saint might not be out of order.  I understand that people are upset about his depiction in an "Orthodox" monastery, but really these kinds of activities will ultimately die out if the majority of the Orthodox world refuses them.
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« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2009, 05:49:55 PM »

I just wanted to throw my ring into the hat here and mention that St. Isaac of Syria is regarded as a Saint and venerated within Holy Orthodoxy, even though he is a "post-schism" saint, being from the Assyrian Church of the East (Nestorian).  His writing spread and he was seen as a model Christian, hence becoming venerated despite canonical boundaries and being out of communion with the Church of Christ.

Also, are not some newer Orthodox saints venerated outside of Holy Orthodoxy, such as St. Elizabeth the New Martyr?  I know that she is at least commemorated in public monuments in the United Kingdom, but I suppose that does not equate with Anglican veneration, if the Anglicans even venerate saints anymore...

At any rate, does not the veneration of a Nestorian in the Orthodox Church reveal a potential for the eventual veneration of a post-schism Roman Catholic, provided that his or her life and writings managed to influence and spread into Orthodoxy?  Assuming that there was not anything overtly unorthodox about "St." Francis of Assisi, couldn't his eventual canonization be possible?  I would venture to guess that there were probably some unorthodox things about our blessed Nestorian saint anyway, so perhaps Francis' total orthodoxy wouldn't be a requirement.
What basis would we have for glorifying Francis of Assisi?  A sense of his worthiness developed within the milieu of a misguided Roman piety that one is unwilling to give up to become Orthodox?

Personally, I don't see anything glaringly wrong with "St." Francis; I just don't see why I should make a big deal about him.

Would this qualify for glorification:

"In addition to the other many and great gifts and preeminent qualities, which he had, he was also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ’s, according to Paul. Let us describe him; these were his characteristics. Along with his excellence he was meek and humble. (We do not speak here of God and divine matters, for he was quite a defender of these.) He did not remember evil and was good-natured, desiring to return good for evil. He never quarreled. He was always patient and magnanimous in the face of adversity. He was above vanity and sensuality. He was always temperate and not extravagant in all personal necessities, and for all that time he was not ill. He endured quietly and silently, always graciously, to the limits of what was done to him, so that all would see him as reasonable, attentive and keen witted. And consequently he never allowed his eyes to be void of tears, but sympathized with a flow of tears."

All the above describe St. Francis of Assisi perfectly, including the stigmata.  However, the above is from St. Gregory Palamas' entry in the Synaxarion.  If St. Isaac of Nineveh, who was not in communion with the Orthodox Church, can be venerated because he was popular and his holiness attested, I don't see why St. Francis or any Western saint could not be venerated if their holiness is attested to and the writing not heterodox even if they were in a Church considered heterodox like St. Isaac.

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« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2009, 06:51:19 PM »

What basis would we have for glorifying Francis of Assisi?  A sense of his worthiness developed within the milieu of a misguided Roman piety that one is unwilling to give up to become Orthodox?

Was this directed toward me?  Huh
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« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2009, 06:56:18 PM »

What basis would we have for glorifying Francis of Assisi?  A sense of his worthiness developed within the milieu of a misguided Roman piety that one is unwilling to give up to become Orthodox?

Was this directed toward me?  Huh
No, but if the shoe fits... Wink
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« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2009, 07:55:19 PM »

Ozgeorge:

I as alsways told that "Germanos" came from the Latin Germanus, meaning "brotherly". I have never heard of it being related to the German nation.

Some of my Georgian friends prefer to call me "Germane" becasue they are more fond of Germany than France ! Others simply becasue Francis is unpronouncable in Gergian ! (It comes out Prandzisi)

I would also point out that the text of Fr. Joseph's Life, wich I purchased in the bookstore of Fr. Efrem's St Anthony's monastary in Arizona, actually used the name "Francis" for the Elder in his childhood. I had read the name Frangiskos somewhere else.

We can admit that the western powrs had some influence over the Greek Islands during the many years of occupation. And that may be why the Elder was named Frangiskos or Francis. It does nothing to impune his Orthodoxy or his piety. May the lord grant him eternal rest with the righteous !

FF
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« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2009, 08:13:22 PM »

What basis would we have for glorifying Francis of Assisi?  A sense of his worthiness developed within the milieu of a misguided Roman piety that one is unwilling to give up to become Orthodox?

Was this directed toward me?  Huh
No, but if the shoe fits... Wink

I can appreciate the humor but I'm a touch offended by this whole thread. There has been a lot of extremes in this thread which don't seem valid even when I place myself squarely on the Orthodox side of the argument.
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« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2009, 11:11:34 PM »

Quote
However, the above is from St. Gregory Palamas' entry in the Synaxarion. 


Which Synaxarion is this? An Orthodox one, or a Byzantine Catholic one?
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