OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 02, 2014, 03:21:37 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: USA territory  (Read 11309 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #90 on: September 06, 2008, 12:15:39 AM »

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11582.0.html

Just found that thread... Sorry, but I'm going to have to go with the 64% that voted yes rather than the 17% that voted no....

44 people....wow I don't why with such an overwhelming concensus....we should be One Church by now...oh wait, we ARE One Church in Christ...
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #91 on: September 06, 2008, 12:17:47 AM »

Please don't present any more facts or alternative points of view on this thread. Apparently, they are "upsetting" to some.

Hey, facts an be terrible and offensive things...I mean, after all, they're just so demanding and overbearing, like they expect you to accept them for no other reason than their being facts.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2008, 12:21:46 AM »

I was just asking a question... Aren't Old Calendarists considered to be out of communion with the Orthodox Church?

Sorry, but I do not like the idea of division according to ethnicity, especially when we should be under one jurisdiction... To me it's just leaning a bit towards racism, and there is nothing else I hate in this world more than racism. it isn't racism, it's just leaning too much towards it.

That's not what's getting you flamed, Constantinople 1872 agreed with you and even issued anathemas to that extent. It's the demand for autocephaly AND patriarchal status that some are uncomfortable with...you must keep in mind that the synodal condemnation of racism also includes a condemnation of nationalism.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2008, 12:22:28 AM »

Sorry, but I'm going to have to go with the 64% that voted yes rather than the 17% that voted no....
Ah, so "marority rules"? Well in that case, I'm going to have to go with the vast majority of the Church which doesn't recognize the autocephaly of the OCA. There you go! Problem solved! No need for consensus in a Pan-Orthodox Synod. You are under the Moscow Patriarchate.

To some maybe. Wink

Of course, as far as I am concerned, we are unified. This Ukrainian boy has no problem with going to listen to the Arabic at the Antiochians, or worship with the Greeks. I even sucked it up and went to the Russians once.
What? Unity in diversity? Is outrage!
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2008, 12:25:10 AM »

Ah, so "marority rules"? Well in that case, I'm going to have to go with the vast majority of the Church which doesn't recognize the autocephaly of the OCA. There you go! Problem solved! No need for consensus in a Pan-Orthodox Synod. You are under the Moscow Patriarchate.
 What? Unity in diversity? Is outrage!

Patriarch Alexy II FTW!

And Unity in Diversity is a concept Americans can not comprehend.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2008, 12:28:30 AM »

And Unity in Diversity is a concept Americans can not comprehend.
Americans in the USA or Americans in Canada?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2008, 12:34:02 AM »

Actually, what makes the most sense, based on what the canons say, going by the numbers and in the light of the Gospel is that we need to call a Pan-Orthodox Synod to resolve the two issues of the autocephaly of the OCA (issue No. 1), and the juridictional issue of the Church in the New Lands including the USA, (issue No. 2). Believe it or not, they are (a) separate issues and (b) issues which effect the whole of the Church Ecumene.

That would probably be the best approach for everyone, but canonically under Chalcedon 28 and the tomos of the Endimousa Synod of Constantinople 1593 I think Constantinople has some pretty stong legal claims. She also pretty much controls the ecclesiastical arguments since dissenters can too easily run afoul of the anathemas of Constantinople 1872.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #97 on: September 06, 2008, 12:34:53 AM »

Americans in the USA or Americans in Canada?

My answer would have to go in Politics.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2008, 12:42:25 AM »

My answer would have to go in Politics.

Now you have me curious...
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2008, 12:46:50 AM »

That would probably be the best approach for everyone,
Shocked
Have aliens abducted GiC and are using his login?
Did I hear you right? Are you suggesting it might be a good idea to get together and talk this through instead of Constantinople just imposing herself? Cheesy

but canonically under Chalcedon 28 and the tomos of the Endimousa Synod of Constantinople 1593 I think Constantinople has some pretty stong legal claims.
Yeah, she does have strong legal claims, but she's also been pretty good at resolving issues diplomatically, (and sometimes expediently), but they get resolved, and all parties seem to be able to reach consensus (case in point, the deposing of the former Patriarch of Jerusalem).

She also pretty much controls the ecclesiastical arguments since dissenters can too easily run afoul of the anathemas of Constantinople 1872.
I actually think that needs to happen, the "dissenters" need to run afoul of them and be made examples of. We actually need to enforce the anathemas of Constantinople 1872, and the first place I would start would be to retract the autocephaly of the Church of Greece to set the example.

My answer would have to go in Politics.
LOL Cheesy You know I'm just teasing!
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2008, 12:50:40 AM »

LOL Cheesy You know I'm just teasing!

Hehehe...I am so biting my tongue right now...
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2008, 12:57:00 AM »

Hehehe...I am so biting my tongue right now...

Calm blue ocean....calm blue ocean.....calm blue ocean......
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,462


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2008, 01:07:46 AM »

Hehehe...I am so biting my tongue right now...

So am I....   Tongue
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:10:43 AM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2008, 01:27:35 AM »

Shocked
Have aliens abducted GiC and are using his login?
Did I hear you right? Are you suggesting it might be a good idea to get together and talk this through instead of Constantinople just imposing herself? Cheesy

It's amazing how much more objective you can be when you're not personally involved in the situation. Then again, it's amazing in it's own way that I still insist on coming to the defence of Constantinople. Wink

Quote
Yeah, she does have strong legal claims, but she's also been pretty good at resolving issues diplomatically, (and sometimes expediently), but they get resolved, and all parties seem to be able to reach consensus (case in point, the deposing of the former Patriarch of Jerusalem).

I really think that the superb intellectual capabilities and diplomatic abilities of Constantinople is what has allowed her to keep her traditional privileged and respected place throughout the era of nationalism when, as example after example as demonstrated, people would rather have their own racial/national Church out of communion with everyone else than be part of the Orthodox Communion. The legal and canonical claims are really only of interest to those of us who have studied canon law and, as my own interest in the subject is evidence of, are really just academic. Most are more concerned with their day to day life in the parish...the technicalities of civil as opposed to common law and the decrees of a council that haven't actually been translated to English or even Modern Greek or any other living language really doesn't matter to the overwhelming majority.

Quote
I actually think that needs to happen, the "dissenters" need to run afoul of them and be made examples of. We actually need to enforce the anathemas of Constantinople 1872, and the first place I would start would be to retract the autocephaly of the Church of Greece to set the example.

I'd personally work it out behind the scenes first...the last thing needed is a scandal...but I do agree with you. The 19th century was the era of nationalism and it was probably more devastating to the Orthodox Church than any other faith...don't get me wrong, the Catholics had their problems, but they eventually managed them, Orthodoxy is still suffering from the effects...and to make mattes worse this type of nationalism is still alive in eastern Europe. The world today is more like the world of the Roman Empire than the divided nation-states of the 1800's, but in a better way...not through force of arms but through common ideology we are slowly comming to realize that there is more that unites us as human beings than separates us as citizens of different nation-states.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #104 on: September 06, 2008, 01:30:11 AM »

So am I....   Tongue

Oh come one...you know you want to chime in, especially after a comment like:

I was speaking about this: "Old Calendarist Traditionalist GOC (aka the EP)"

I don't know whether you should take that as an insult or a complement. Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,349


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #105 on: September 06, 2008, 01:49:25 AM »

I know its WAY too early for me to really form an opinion on this...
Yes, it is.  I can think of quite a few things that you, an inquirer/catechumen, SHOULD focus your attention on.  The jurisdictional mess in North America is NOT one of them, especially if this causes you to become disillusioned with Orthodox Christianity and stop pursuing Truth.  Yes, this is an uncanonical mess, and no, the human institution of the Church is not perfect.  But thankfully, as some have tried to point out, the North American jurisdictional situation is not the be-all or the end-all of Orthodoxy, even in North America.  Ultimately it is upon our Orthodox faith in Jesus Christ (i.e., the Holy Mysteries, Holy Tradition, our ascetic way of life, etc.) that we stand or fall.


I give up... You are only trying to rile me and upset me...
You've apparently already done that to yourself. Wink
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:50:13 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,462


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2008, 01:51:22 AM »

I actually didn't notice that as I don't read all the posts on the forum...

I didn't know it was possible for an Orthodox Church to not be in communion with Orthodoxy Wink haha
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2008, 01:53:19 AM »

The 19th century was the era of nationalism and it was probably more devastating to the Orthodox Church than any other faith...
Sad but true. Some may argue that the Faith is intact despite nationalism, but I think the Faith has had to make so many compromises to accommodate nationalism that it's barely recognizable any more. Any attack on our ecclesiology is an attack on the Faith because, according to the Founder of Christianity, the Church is the Icon of the Holy Trinity Who Is the Community par excellence- Diverse, yet Unified (John 17:21).
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:53:49 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,462


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2008, 01:53:50 AM »

My jurisdiction is an Old Calendarist canonical jurisdiction.

Generally speaking people only apply the term Old Calendarist towards those of us who are separate on principle; the more common way of referring to Churches such as yours is an Old Calendar Church.

I personally don't care since Old Calendarist is a term applied to us originally as a pejorative but people do get confused over who is who.

Ozgeorge's use of the term was of course a deliberate use of (insert appropriate literary device; it's too late for me to remember).
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:59:43 AM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2008, 02:10:11 AM »

Ozgeorge's use of the term was of course a deliberate use of (insert appropriate literary device; it's too late for me to remember).
"an irritant"  Cheesy
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,331


WWW
« Reply #110 on: September 06, 2008, 02:37:33 AM »

We CANNOT be visible and effectively show the people of America true Orthodoxy if we ourselves don't even represent it, even in something as basic as our organization and structure.

88Devin12, I couldn't agree more with the sentiments expressed by PtA and others in the forum.

If others, outside of this forum, see you ranting and raving about not having American Unity, they'll ignore you and look the other way.

Think about the Parable of the Good Samaritan - two Priests with their own issues and agendas walked past the injured man who needed help while the Good Samaritan tended to the needs of the injured man.  Let the Priests with their own issues and agendas hash out North American Unity, if such a thing is possible in today's world; Meanwhile, continue down the path of what it means to be an Orthodox Christian and a follower of Christ rather than allowing passions to get out of control over matters that you have no control over.
Logged
88Devin12
Moderated
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,922



« Reply #111 on: September 06, 2008, 10:47:59 AM »

The thing is, because there is no single jurisdiction, I almost fell to a group that isn't even Orthodox...
When I'm at home (and not at school), I live in a town that has an "Orthodox" church...  However they made their own bishop and are a group of ex-Catholics and ex-Orthodox. They aren't Orthodox even though they say they are.

If I didn't start attending the Orthodox Church I go to now, I probably would have fallen to the false-Orthodox church in my hometown. There are people out there who may not be so lucky... They may end up joining a church other than an Eastern Orthodox Church because they may confuse it with the multiple EO jurisdictions in America that actually are true Orthodox jurisdictions.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 10:48:44 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #112 on: September 06, 2008, 11:02:30 AM »

I remember a couple years ago at the local summer exhibition here in Canada, they had deepfried Coke. Sounds like a very delicious way to have a heart attack!
How do you fry a liquid?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #113 on: September 06, 2008, 11:05:38 AM »

ozgeorge, The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese may have land here, but that doesn't mean the autocephalous OCA should give up land to it... I'm sorry but I think the land lays under the jurisdiction of the autocephalous OCA rather than the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America which is under the authority of the EP, who is over 5,000 miles away.

When that canon was written about barbarian lands, they didn't know about the Americas. Barbarian lands meant (for the most part), lands that they knew about, and that was more or less "barbarian" or non-Roman... Everything they knew of was land-locked and could be reached by foot, not to mention the only land that was 3,000-5,000 miles away was Central and Southeast Asia as well as eastern Russia.

We aren't talking about some nation that is landlocked with Europe here... There is almost 4,000 miles of water between the Americas and Europe. There are many differences between America and Europe. Not to mention that the USA is a mixture of people from all countries of the world... NOT JUST GREEKS, but all other Orthodox Christians as well...

What needs to happen is a unification in America, NOT under the Ecumenical Patriarch, but rather under an American Metropolitan/Patriarch...

Yet there is already a Metropolitan in the USA right now... (at least a position)

Instead of dividing Orthodoxy in America, why can't we put our ethnicities aside and have a Metropolitan/Patriarch? (who ISN'T the EP or any other foreign Patriarch)

I know its WAY too early for me to really form an opinion on this... But I want the people after me, and even possibly including myself to live in a unified American Orthodox Church...

We CANNOT be visible and effectively show the people of America true Orthodoxy if we ourselves don't even represent it, even in something as basic as our organization and structure.
It's not too early for me, and I agree with you on every point.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #114 on: September 06, 2008, 11:06:29 AM »

Patriarch Alexy II FTW!

And Unity in Diversity is a concept Americans can not comprehend.

Utter BS.

Within my diocese alone (and to make that more specific, within one state within that diocese) there is a parish that uses primarily Spanish, many that use primarily English, and some that offer additional services in Slavonic.  Others, such as my own, use an amalgamation of music and customs from all over the Orthodox world.  Unity in diversity doesn't necessarily mean having some parishes that are entirely Greek-oriented, or Russian-oriented, or American-oriented; it can also mean blending elements of each of those in any individual place.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #115 on: September 06, 2008, 11:11:48 AM »

88Devin12,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
ROCORorthodox asked a question and I answered it.
However, one thing I would point out in regards to this:I hear this all the time. So what? The Roman Catholic Church in the USA is under the Pope in Rome who is 7,091 km / 4,406 miles from Washingron, and they don't seem to do too badly for themselves. Smiley
Perhaps you've heard of a recent scandal here, that points of which are attributed to this distance.  Ditto some of the other goofiness going on here.

Rome claims over local control is part of what led to 1054.

The EP touted Spyridon as an American primate (he was born here), partly from the idea that any Greek anywhere can replace another anywhere.  Iakovos of blessed memory knew otherwise, which is why he was forced out.  Spyridon learned the hard way that the EP's ignoring this is not going to fly.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 11:14:40 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #116 on: September 06, 2008, 11:15:51 AM »

^ You're surely getting fired up over the opinion of someone 8,800 miles away. Smiley
WWI
WWII
Iraq War
1054
There's precedence.

I don't know what you all say on Sunday, but we say "One, Holy, Catholic (i.e. universal) and Apostolic Church."  We are all in this together.

Why is OzGeorge interested in the words of someone (how many miles from Australia to Constantinople?) on the situation 8, 800 miles away.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 11:22:34 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #117 on: September 06, 2008, 11:59:41 AM »

And nor should the Baptist Union, the Congregationalists, the Anglican Communion..... Wink
up until you brought the Vatican into it, I think all the examples given were Orthodox.

Quote
But the reality is that historically, the Orthodox Church has not existed on national boundaries- this is a new phenomenon.
Actually, no.  The Armenian kingdom got its own hierarchy when it converted, before Nicea, the first Christian state.

The canons speak of the ecclesiastical divisions following the civil. The site is down so I can't post the wording right now.  I hope to soon.  Its in the Post Nicene Fathers volume on the Ecumenical Councils, which includes an excursus on the relationship between Roman Law and Orthodox Catholic Canon.


Quote
And even in this modern phenomenon of "Nationalist Churches", the Orthodox Church still maintains this tradition as can be seen in the case of the autocephalous Church of Greece which does not have jurisdiction over all the lands within the borders of Greece.
A result of the piecemeal liberation of Greece, and a constant source of feuding.  The EP excommunicated those in revolt, but the Ottomans hung him from the patriarchate on Pascha anyway.  Btw, his relics are in the Archbishop of Greece's Cathedral, with no mention of the Turks, wheras his icon within the gate where he was hung has to be hung backwards (to venerate it, you have to take it out and switch it, and then put it back) a comment perhaps on the "Secular" Turks and the "Nationalist State Orthodox" Greeks.
Btw, the EP got the American parishes when Meltius (who was made Archbishop of Athens when his relative became Prime Minister of Greece, he had been booted out of Jerusalem, and was a bishop of Cyprus: he fled  to America when the king came back), who had set himself up as primate of America, was elected EP: he transferred them from himself as American primate to himself as EP.  He retired as Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria.

Quote
The North of Greece (Epiros), the Islands and parts of Central Greece (Macedonia)
The Hellenization of the Slavs (Macedonian, Serb, Bulgarian or whatever else you want to consider them: they weren't Greek) shows why the National Churches arose as a solution.  Yes, I realize them's fighting words in some parts.  In someone wantst to apply, maybe the private forum would be better, rather than derail this thread.

Quote
are under the juridiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. So if you want to strictly use historical Orthodox Church precedents, there it is.
For the jurisdictional mess.  Yes, there's your precedence for it.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #118 on: September 06, 2008, 12:04:07 PM »

I know I certainly need to calm down... But I have to say that I really do not like the idea of comparing the Pope and his position/"authority" to that of the Ecumenical Patriarch
you're in good company. Patriarch Alexei and many, many others don't either.

 
Quote
or any Orthodox patriarch for that matter.
I certainly don't hate the Pope, but the authority of the Pope over areas that didn't belong to his jurisdiction was one of the main reasons the schism occurred...

ozgeorge, the thing is though, the OCA is already autocephalous, for any Patriarch to claim authority over the same areas as another Autocephalous area would be nearly equivalent to the Pope's claim of authority over all Christians.
Why the Ravenna document is mistaken.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #119 on: September 06, 2008, 12:06:13 PM »

He was merely stating that one does not have to be in your backyard to be a sufficient head/hierarch/leader/whatever.  Especially in this modern age, the EP could easily administer to a flock in North America,
only if the Turk lets him.

 
Quote
the Moscow Patriarch could do the same, etc.
The coming war might make that a problem.  Read the life of St. Nicholas of Japan and the Russo-Japanese War.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #120 on: September 06, 2008, 12:23:21 PM »

As much as I would love to teach you ecclesiology...actually I'm lying, I have no such interst...
If you have no dog in this fight, stop your barking. police


Quote
So, let me just suggest you read Metropolitan Maximos of Sardis' The Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Orthodox Church. Thessaloniki, 1972.

It was published in Greek and English, so take your pick. But in either case, it would probably be helpful to the conversation if you at least had a grasp of what exactly the role of Constantinople has been over the past 1600 years or so as well as the role and the nature of the role it has played in imperial, ecclesiastical, and canonical law.
Maximos of Sardis, the EP, Thessaloniki, in Greek or English.
A Greek head of an extinct ancient Greek church under the vestige of the Greek speaking Empire of the East, published in a see in Greece (is it CoG's free and clear, or does the EP still have claims?) in a language that it is insisted the liturgy must be in although the younger generations do not understand it and the middle ones have to have it in transcription.  Gee, I wonder which side he will come on.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying the EP has more right to be over the churches in the Americas instead of giving the Americas the right to have their own Patriarch?
Of course he is.

Quote
Sorry GIC, but I never listen to anything you say...
Good answer. Wise choice.
Of course you don't. You're becomig Orthodox.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 12:26:23 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #121 on: September 06, 2008, 12:30:29 PM »

Autocephaly needs to be both granted and recognized by the whole Church.
History shows otherwise, starting with the GoC.

Quote
If the Ecumenical Patriarchate granted autocephaly to the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, but neither the Patriarchate of Jerusalem or Antioch recognised it, then a Pan-Orthodox Synod would need to be called to resolve the issue.
Wasn't called  for Russia, Bulgaria, Albania, etc...

Quote
Why should it be any different with the OCA?

Why indeed.

Quote
The situation is ambiguous to say the least, especially when the Moscow Patriarchate which supposedly recognizes the autocephaly of the OCA has it's own Parishes in the US!
Weren't you the one who brought up the EP's parishes in Greece?


Quote
And now, the MP also recognises ROCOR which has parishes in the US. Yet none of the ancient Patriarchates accepts the autocephaly of the OCA. The majority of the Church does not accept the autocephaly of the OCA. If the OCA doesn't care what the rest of the Church thinks, then by all means, let them separate from us and go their own way and call themselves what they want.
Like Russia did, when all the ancient Patriarchs were signed over to the Vatican at Florence. Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 12:43:54 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #122 on: September 06, 2008, 12:34:45 PM »

Only if you take Orthodox Canon Law seriously.
Yes indeed (the web site is up again):
Trullo: Canon XXXVIII.

The canon which was made by the Fathers we also observe, which thus decreed:  If any city be renewed by imperial authority, or shall have been renewed, let the order of things ecclesiastical follow the civil and public models.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiv.iii.xxxix.html

oops, down again.  There are more canons, I just am getting started.

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #123 on: September 06, 2008, 12:36:02 PM »

The great Balkanisation of Orthodoxy...  Wink
Didn't the Balkans already do that?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #124 on: September 06, 2008, 12:37:45 PM »

Unity and autocephaly are two completely different issues.  Stop conflating them.
Not completly, because one isn't going to happen, I guarentee you, until the other.  Compare the history of Orthodoxy before the Bolshevik Revolution.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #125 on: September 06, 2008, 12:40:29 PM »

Ironically, four of the Churches which recognize the OCA. I wonder if they'll recognize the new Patriarch of Washington? Cheesy

Interesting, given their history, they might know first hand why the Americas need their own Church.  The Albanian Church, btw, got started in the US (Boston) because the Greek priests refused to bury Albanians.

Patriarch of Dallas sounds better. Cheesy
San Antonio, and you have a deal.

Political comment deleted.--YtterbiumAnalyst
 Political comment outside the Politics forum.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:19:41 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #126 on: September 06, 2008, 12:59:11 PM »

What makes the most sense, based on what the canons say
isn't that the point of contention?

Quote
and simply going by the numbers
the converts and half breeds are going to outnumber the heritage Orthodox VERY soon, if not already
 

Quote
- there should be a united jurisdiction under the Ecumenical Patriarch.

let's throw in reality: I can't tell you how many Greek Orthodox who have gone elsewhere because they got tired of being told they weren't Greek Americans, they were Greeks living in America, and tired of the power of, say, the Greek press in Greece over their destinies (a source of the removal of Iakovos).


Quote
The convert community by in large trashes the EP
only because he trashes them.  Witness the "reception" the Evangelical Orthodox got from the EP.  Now, we have, for instance, HORROR OF HORRORS an Orthodox Bible in English due to them.
A convert I know, not Evangelical Orthodox but from the Vatican, when inquiring to convert was given a Greek grammar and told to study that.

Quote
and the Russians would never agree to it.
So Russia saves Orthodoxy yet again.
 
Quote
So it's kind of a pipe dream.
The word is vision.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #127 on: September 06, 2008, 01:03:12 PM »

Actually, what makes the most sense, based on what the canons say, going by the numbers and in the light of the Gospel is that we need to call a Pan-Orthodox Synod to resolve the two issues of the autocephaly of the OCA (issue No. 1), and the juridictional issue of the Church in the New Lands including the USA, (issue No. 2). Believe it or not, they are (a) separate issues and (b) issues which effect the whole of the Church Ecumene.
are they separate? Then why are the replicating in Asia, Great Britain, Estonia, Ukraine...

It's not that we can't manage to do something.  Africa (much of which are "New Lands") has none of these problems.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #128 on: September 06, 2008, 01:15:30 PM »

Why AMM? Why would it be better for Americans to be under the EP? Do you believe they should be under the EP just because it would be better for the Church in Constantinople?

GIC, as I said, I don't pay attention to your posts, so why reply to me?

Uniting the OCA, the Antiochian NA and the GO of America, the American Orthodox Church would have nearly 2.6 million members, and over 1,300 parishes.

The jurisdiction under the EP in the Americas has about 500,000 members and 750 parishes.

Adding that would put it over 3 million members and over 2,000 parishes.

This doesn't include the various other jurisdictions in America.

For comparison's sake,
The Ecumencial Patriarchate of Constantinople has about 3,500,000 members worldwide. (500,000 of which are in the USA)

Keep in mind, there are OVER 2.5 million Orthodox Christians in the Americas that ARE NOT under the EP... So WHY should he automatically be granted control of them all?
I will say I would question your numbers, but giving the fact that conversions are rendering this moot, I won't dwell on it.

Quote
I am NOT trashing the EP and I do not hate him... However I do recognize that Orthodoxy in America is growing, and gaining converts... It isn't some branch of Orthodoxy practiced by cradle Orthodox that keep to themselves, Orthodox here in America aren't a diaspora anymore.

Carefull.  Saying that can get you deposed.  Look at Iakovos of blessed memory.  Btw, I'll offer his early and forceful involvement at the forefront of the civil rights movement in this country as an example of the need of local, and locally orientated, hierarchies. Not ones immersed in foreign entanglements.


Quote
The Churches are composed of mostly American citizens, not Greek citizens or Russian citizens. Though these people have a unique culture and an ethnic identity, they are still Americans.
I think the ideal is to be what the Latin church was before Vatican II: the mass was in Latin and the same, but you can tell immediately if the parish was Polish, Italian, Spanish, etc.  The ethnic Orthodox don't have to give up their ethnicities, just realize that Orthodoxy is universal.

Quote
PLEASE, listen to Kevin Allen's podcast... http://audio.ancientfaith.com/illuminedheart/ih_ajalatencore.mp3

I would only accept the EP's control over one condition... If all the jurisdictions are given to him, then he MUST, as soon as possible, grant autocephaly to the church in America.

The Church is Sweden tried that: the EP turned it into a Greek organization and told the other ethnicities to form similar ethnic Ghettos.  I think it was the Greek bishop of Sweden (it was one in Scandinavia, and one who had been chased out of Greece) who has forbidden any work that might suggest that Orthodoxy was for Scandinavians.  One result of this was a group seeking admission has ended up forming the Nordic Catholic Church, with PNC orders.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,349


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #129 on: September 06, 2008, 01:20:08 PM »

The thing is, because there is no single jurisdiction, I almost fell to a group that isn't even Orthodox...
When I'm at home (and not at school), I live in a town that has an "Orthodox" church...  However they made their own bishop and are a group of ex-Catholics and ex-Orthodox. They aren't Orthodox even though they say they are.

If I didn't start attending the Orthodox Church I go to now, I probably would have fallen to the false-Orthodox church in my hometown. There are people out there who may not be so lucky... They may end up joining a church other than an Eastern Orthodox Church because they may confuse it with the multiple EO jurisdictions in America that actually are true Orthodox jurisdictions.
This vagante scenario into which you fell, however, would not have been prevented by the administrative unity for which you clamor.  In fact, the two are totally unrelated.  Regardless of whether the canonical churches on this continent are unified under the oversight of one synod, you will still have pseudo-Orthodox churches based on vaganteism and heresy, and you will have those who naïvely fall prey to these wolves.  To really address the issue that almost ensnared you, you need to focus your attention on doing what is necessary to squash the problem of vagante churches and leave administrative unity of the canonical churches alone.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,866



« Reply #130 on: September 06, 2008, 01:21:20 PM »

You would not believe the lengths I would go to combat such an idea.
I was in Canada last June and July: I have to admit it was somewhat surreal to see monuments to the American Loyalists.  And I say that as a monarchist.  I was there for Canada day, and it was interesting to here the accolades, especially about being thankful for the health care system (I don't remember what you call it).

I remember some Canadian saying, during the NAFTA debate, "isn't not being American what it means to be Canadian?"
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #131 on: September 06, 2008, 01:27:44 PM »

Seeing that this topic has gotten very heated recently and is now being dominated by one poster, I'm locking this for the time being until we can cool off.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:27:51 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
ROCORthodox
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 301



« Reply #132 on: November 14, 2008, 06:51:38 PM »

Now that things have cooled off quite a bit in the 10 weeks or so since this thread was locked, and to allow for discussion of the following question started here:  New OCA Metropolitan: Bp Jonah, I am unlocking this thread.  Please remember, though, that if the discussion becomes too hot or falls under the domination of only one poster, as it has before, I will not hesitate to relock it.  -PeterTheAleut



After listening to the speeches posted on Ancient Faith Radio I heard the idea repeated that the OCA is the American church of Orthodoxy.  Well, why isn't there a Patriarch instead of a Metropolitan?   
« Last Edit: November 15, 2008, 04:47:30 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #133 on: November 14, 2008, 06:56:30 PM »


After listening to the speeches posted on Ancient Faith Radio I heard the idea repeated that the OCA is the American church of Orthodoxy.  Well, why isn't there a Patriarch instead of a Metropolitan?   


Whooooo boy....can of worms....
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #134 on: November 14, 2008, 06:59:15 PM »


After listening to the speeches posted on Ancient Faith Radio I heard the idea repeated that the OCA is the American church of Orthodoxy.  Well, why isn't there a Patriarch instead of a Metropolitan?   

Because autocephaly doesn't require a patriarchate.  Just ask Cyprus.  Or Greece.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Tags: Chalcedon Canon 28 American Unity The Diaspora of the OCA 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.165 seconds with 72 queries.