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Author Topic: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics  (Read 25489 times) Average Rating: 1
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GiC
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« on: June 20, 2008, 12:25:16 AM »

So condeming Love as misplaced is what Christian moral theology has come to? If so, I'm glad I got out of it while I still had a couple of my wits about me.
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2008, 12:36:23 AM »

..so pronounced great Mathematical Moralist  Roll Eyes

DON'T FEED the TROLL
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2008, 12:48:20 AM »

..so pronounced great Mathematical Moralist  Roll Eyes

DON'T FEED the TROLL

 Roll Eyes Lack of love is an ugly thing.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 12:48:58 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2008, 12:54:07 AM »

Roll Eyes Lack of love is an ugly thing.

Didn't you just say in another thread people should be allowed to express their opinion without being judged for it? 
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2008, 12:58:34 AM »

Didn't you just say in another thread people should be allowed to express their opinion without being judged for it? 

Where have I judged anyone? Do you think the above snide comment is a loving comment, or even an opinion?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 12:59:11 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2008, 01:00:12 AM »

Roll Eyes Lack of love is an ugly thing.

Nice, catchy axiom, but hardly apropos.
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2008, 01:05:29 AM »

Nice, catchy axiom, but hardly apropos.

I must have missed something; I thought calling people trolls was fairly unloving.
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2008, 01:07:34 AM »

I must have missed something; I thought calling people trolls was fairly unloving.

Only if untrue  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2008, 01:09:40 AM »

Where have I judged anyone? Do you think the above snide comment is a loving comment, or even an opinion?

If you are referring to your own snide comment, I agree with you, there was nothing loving or even opinionated about it, just pure judgement. Wink
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2008, 01:10:59 AM »

I must have missed something; I thought calling people trolls was fairly unloving.

It's just Αριστοκλής' way of saying that he kindly disagrees, but is unable to offer a viable counterpoint at this particular time. Which is perfectly fine, he doesn't have to agree with me...he doesn't even have to offer a reason why he disagrees with me. I mean, that's really what religion is, conclusions without a reason or logical argument.
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2008, 01:13:31 AM »

Please don't let my refusal to take your bait as vindication of your chumming activity.
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2008, 01:17:01 AM »

Please don't let my refusal to take your bait as vindication of your chumming activity.

Why? You people let the lack of an absolute proof for the non-existence of a deity serve as vindication for your belief in your deity...my logic is no more flawed.  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2008, 01:18:00 AM »

If you are referring to your own snide comment, I agree with you, there was nothing loving or even opinionated about it, just pure judgement. Wink

Oh, I see - you don't agree that lack of love is an ugly thing and you think that I was making a snide comment instead of one that I thought might be consistant with Orthodox tendancies. Now I understand your point. However, I do think that lack of love is very ugly and blatant name-calling is pretty underhand. But it's ok, GIC, isn't a Christian; he jumped ship and his opinions aren't really acceptable, so he deserves no respect, at all.
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2008, 01:20:23 AM »

I mean, that's really what religion is, conclusions without a reason or logical argument.

So what do you think of people who follow religion?  Is faith grounded on conclusions without a reason or logical argument?
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2008, 01:26:02 AM »

...my logic is no more flawed.  Grin
However, hopeless.
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2008, 01:26:15 AM »

So what do you think of people who follow religion

I think that if religion helps people get through their life or be a better person then it's fine, if on the other hand it's used as an excuse to condemn, dismiss, or diminish human beings who do not hold to your dogmas, then it becomes an insturment of evil and oppression.

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Is faith grounded on conclusions without a reason or logical argument?

No, not all faith, the fact that I have faith that when I take my next step, nuclear forces wil prevent me from falling through the earth is based on a very logical argument. But some faith most certainly is grounded on 'conclusions without a reason or logical argument.'
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2008, 01:28:54 AM »

Oh, I see - you don't agree that lack of love is an ugly thing and you think that I was making a snide comment instead of one that I thought might be consistant with Orthodox tendancies. Now I understand your point. However, I do think that lack of love is very ugly and blatant name-calling is pretty underhand. But it's ok, GIC, isn't a Christian; he jumped ship and his opinions aren't really acceptable, so he deserves no respect, at all.

In the context used, I don't think labeling GIC a troll is name calling in the sense you are insinuating.  He is in fact actually trolling, i.e. posting to the list for the soul purpose of rankling a group of people he despises, people of religious faith, us.

Of course lack of love can be an ugly thing, but I don't think the post in question showed a lack of love.  I think it showed someone frustrated that GIC again appeared to be turning a thread into one of his psychological games.  And it appears he was in fact was successful! Wink Touche' GIC! Wink
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2008, 01:30:02 AM »

But some faith most certainly is grounded on 'conclusions without a reason or logical argument.'

And what type of faith would that be?
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2008, 01:35:01 AM »

In the context used, I don't think labeling GIC a troll is name calling in the sense you are insinuating.  He is in fact actually trolling, i.e. posting to the list for the soul purpose of rankling a group of people he despises, people of faith, us.

I don't think you quite get me, I don't despise people because they believe in a god, I despise people when they use their belief in a god to advocate evil against their fellow human beings. I actually think Riddikulus and Ozgeorge, though both quite religious, have been very reasonable in this regard and I harbour no ill will whatsoever against either their persons or beliefs. Unfortunately, when Christianity is presented in the manner you have attempted, I cannot be so kind or forgiving to that system of belief.
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2008, 01:36:15 AM »

And what type of faith would that be?

Belief in anything lacking well-founded scientific research to support it.
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2008, 01:37:48 AM »

I don't think you quite get me, I don't despise people because they believe in a god, I despise people when they use their belief in a god to advocate evil against their fellow human beings. Unfortunately, when Christianity is presented in the manner you have attempted, I cannot be so kind or forgiving to that system of belief.


Where have I or anyone else on this list used our belief in a god to advocate evil against fellow human beings?

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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2008, 01:39:19 AM »

Belief in anything lacking well-founded scientific research to support it.

What part of christian faith would you say is founded on well-founded scientific research?  And what parts aren't? I'd be interested in the Gospel according to GIC.  Kind of like following the Thomas Jefferson bible where you cut out the parts you don't like or agree with?
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2008, 01:42:02 AM »

I don't think you quite get me, I don't despise people because they believe in a god, I despise people when they use their belief in a god to advocate evil against their fellow human beings. I actually think Riddikulus and Ozgeorge, though both quite religious, have been very reasonable in this regard and I harbour no ill will whatsoever against either their persons or beliefs. Unfortunately, when Christianity is presented in the manner you have attempted, I cannot be so kind or forgiving to that system of belief.

It's also heartening to see you've not strayed from your debate style.  Pump up people's emotions, then write a post that makes you seem like the reasonable one.  I'd like to see you and Obama do a debate circuit.  It would put the Obama vs. Hillary debate show to shame! Wink
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2008, 01:44:57 AM »

Where have I or anyone else on this list used our belief in a god to advocate evil against fellow human beings?

Are you kidding me? This entire thread is about mocking two people's love for each other because one minor detail doesn't jive with ancient jewish cultural customs that were codified and claimed to have been sent from the mouth of a god. For two pages now people have been condemning them and demanding that they be deprived of their livelihood for the crime of love.

When religion is used to attempt to deprive any group, be it a religious minority, women, homosexuals, etc., of their civil and human rights it is being used for the cause of evil against fellow human beings.
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 01:48:44 AM »

What part of christian faith would you say is founded on well-founded scientific research?  And what parts aren't? I'd be interested in the Gospel according to GIC.  Kind of like following the Thomas Jefferson bible where you cut out the parts you don't like or agree with?

There's enough evidence to reasonably suggest that the scripture is a moderately accurate mythical history...somewhat akin to the early history of Rome as written by Livy. Jesus was probably a historical person, one of the several messiah-teachers of the day, he was probably a good man with good teachings as recorded in the Gospels, and he was probably tortured and executed by the Romans.

But the extraordinary claims of scripture require extraordinary evidence...and sound evidence for the existence of anything metaphysical simply doesn't exist.
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2008, 01:51:55 AM »

Are you kidding me? This entire thread is about mocking two people's love for each other because one minor detail doesn't jive with ancient jewish cultural customs that were codified and claimed to have been sent from the mouth of a god. For two pages now people have been condemning them and demanding that they be deprived of their livelihood for the crime of love.

When religion is used to attempt to deprive any group, be it a religious minority, women, homosexuals, etc., of their civil and human rights it is being used for the cause of evil against fellow human beings.

Are you kidding me?  Where have I said anything at all, much less mocking, about the topic.  You addressed me, "in the manner you attempted." I haven't posted a thing on the issue of these two men.

And you weren't talking about someone disapproving of someone's behavior, or someone denying what you believe are someone's civil rights, you said, "advocate evil".  I'm not sure that anyone's opinion has risen to the level of advocating evil.  It's a nice try on your part though to demonize their opinion.
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2008, 01:53:10 AM »

I warned you about the troll...
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2008, 01:55:32 AM »

In the context used, I don't think labeling GIC a troll is name calling in the sense you are insinuating.  He is in fact actually trolling, i.e. posting to the list for the soul purpose of rankling a group of people he despises, people of religious faith, us.

Of course lack of love can be an ugly thing, but I don't think the post in question showed a lack of love.  I think it showed someone frustrated that GIC again appeared to be turning a thread into one of his psychological games.  And it appears he was in fact was successful! Wink Touche' GIC! Wink

Ok, now I get it. If one calls someone a name in frustration, and because it seems to fit one's opinion of the person in question, it isn't showing a lack of love. I mean look at GIC; he simply won't stop being annoying and he absolutely refuses to fall into line with what he considers to be extremist points of view. Calling him a troll is perfectly acceptable. No lack of love or insult there. Really, one is doing him a favour. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2008, 01:58:10 AM »

Ok, now I get it.
I don't think you do.
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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2008, 01:58:18 AM »

There's enough evidence to reasonably suggest that the scripture is a moderately accurate mythical history...somewhat akin to the early history of Rome as written by Livy. Jesus was probably a historical person, one of the several messiah-teachers of the day, he was probably a good man with good teachings as recorded in the Gospels, and he was probably tortured and executed by the Romans.

If someone does believe in the myths, do you respect their faith?

And to get back to the question, if someone believes believes in any of the myths, i.e. the resurrection, the virgin birth, etc. do you then believe their faith is ground on conclusions without reason or a logical argument? And if so, do you believe they are unreasonable and illogical in general, or just in matters of faith?
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2008, 02:07:10 AM »

Are you kidding me?  Where have I said anything at all, much less mocking, about the topic.  You addressed me, "in the manner you attempted." I haven't posted a thing on the issue of these two men.

My appologies, I was merely making general commentary on the conduct of the side you appear to have taken in this debate (and you made that side quite clear when you opened your participation with a direct attack on Riddikulus)

Quote
And you weren't talking about someone disapproving of someone's behavior, or someone denying what you believe are someone's civil rights, you said, "advocate evil".  I'm not sure that anyone's opinion has risen to the level of advocating evil.  It's a nice try on your part though to demonize their opinion.

Oh, I would beg to differ, some have opposed offering homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual couples, some have suggested that homosexual priests should be deprived their livelihood by being removed from the priesthood. Some here have indeed risen to the level of advocating evil.
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2008, 02:09:02 AM »

I warned you about the troll...

I can't resist GIC! Wink He does a fairly good job of representing the primary attacks on faith in society today.  The main reason I've continued to engage when I do is that so few kids today grow up with any faith, any church, etc. and thus my kids(all 5 of them) are bombarded with "how can you believe that silly stuff."  Understanding GIC helps me to help them deal with the questions.

The funny thing is, at my business I'm the only one of two people in my office who are christians.  My best friend is pretty close to being an atheist.  Yet any talks we have on this subject never blow up or get ugly, ever.  The web can easily become an anonymous pressure chamber where people swing between saying things they'd never say to someone's face and the next minute becoming all holier than thou.  But it does allow debate to strip away the BS and get to the heart of issues.
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« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2008, 02:10:18 AM »

If someone does believe in the myths, do you respect their faith?

No, I don't respect the faith itself, I don't really see any reasonable reason why I should. But I might very well respect the person, you don't have to agree with someone on every issue to respect them and believe they are good people.

Quote
And to get back to the question, if someone believes believes in any of the myths, i.e. the resurrection, the virgin birth, etc. do you then believe their faith is ground on conclusions without reason or a logical argument? And if so, do you believe they are unreasonable and illogical in general, or just in matters of faith?

No, their faith has no reason or logical argument behind it, infact most probably wouldn't even claim it does. But that doesn't mean that they are generally unreasonable or illogical people, it may be just that one thing (and very often is), humans have an amazing ability to compartmentalize.
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2008, 02:10:47 AM »

Some here have indeed risen sunk to the level of advocating evil.

Indeed, the gay activists are.
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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2008, 02:15:24 AM »

My appologies, I was merely making general commentary on the conduct of the side you appear to have taken in this debate (and you made that side quite clear when you opened your participation with a direct attack on Riddikulus)

Oh, I would beg to differ, some have opposed offering homosexual couples the same rights as heterosexual couples, some have suggested that homosexual priests should be deprived their livelihood by being removed from the priesthood. Some here have indeed risen to the level of advocating evil.

Taking sides?  That's silly.  I was just of the opinion she wrote two posts within a few minutes of each other that seemed hypocritical and I commented on one of them.  I might have been wrong, my comment might have been innapropriate, but I wasn't taking sides.  Although, I'm pretty sure you'd like to turn all these debates into people taking "sides".  Wink
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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2008, 04:25:59 AM »

GiC; you are forgetting that they knew that they would lose their positions if they proceeded.

Personally I am somewhat on the fence about marjuana. It is considered a drug by the majority of society because of those that abuse it, I  understand that. But if one smokes it and then takes a drug test and fail, they will be fired. It doesn't matter if they use it properly, you do "a" the consequence is "b."  So if I know that there are random drug tests and I smoke pot then I am putting my job on the line.

Homosexuals can work for the salvation army-and they do. But they can't be "officers." That is the established policy laid out when they achieve that position. So if they were to declare themselves homosexual after achieving that position they would be fired, they would know that in no uncertain terms.

Should the people that commit hate crimes against homosexuals be able to work for GLAAD? What if someone achieved a leadership position in GLAAD and then decided to loudly protest against homosexuality on their breaks? Would that be acceptable?

How about a neo-nazi working for the Jewish Federation?

If you work for an organization with clearly defined policies and you violate them you are essentially asking to be fired.
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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2008, 09:29:08 AM »

Gic:


To Dissenting Priests

"It is your duty to to fix the lines (of doctrine) clearly in your minds: and if you wish to go beyond them you must change your profession. This is your duty not specially as Christians or as priests but as honest men. There is a danger here of the clergy developing a special professional conscience which obscures the very plain moral issue. Men who have passed beyond these boundary lines in either direction are apt to protest that they have come by their unorthodox opinions honestly. In defense of those opinions they are prepared to suffer obloquy and to forfeit professional advancement. They thus come to feel like martyrs. But this simply misses the point which so gravely scandalizes the layman. We never doubted that the unorthodox opinions were honestly held: what we complain of is your continuing in your ministry after you have come to hold them. We always knew that a man who makes his living as a paid agent of the Conservative Party may honestly change his views and honestly become a Communist. What we deny is that he can honestly continue to be a Conservative agent and to receive money from one party while he supports the policy of the other."

    --from Christian Apologetics by C.S. Lewis
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« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2008, 10:34:28 AM »

GiC; you are forgetting that they knew that they would lose their positions if they proceeded.

Personally I am somewhat on the fence about marjuana. It is considered a drug by the majority of society because of those that abuse it, I  understand that. But if one smokes it and then takes a drug test and fail, they will be fired. It doesn't matter if they use it properly, you do "a" the consequence is "b."  So if I know that there are random drug tests and I smoke pot then I am putting my job on the line.

Homosexuals can work for the salvation army-and they do. But they can't be "officers." That is the established policy laid out when they achieve that position. So if they were to declare themselves homosexual after achieving that position they would be fired, they would know that in no uncertain terms.

Should the people that commit hate crimes against homosexuals be able to work for GLAAD? What if someone achieved a leadership position in GLAAD and then decided to loudly protest against homosexuality on their breaks? Would that be acceptable?

How about a neo-nazi working for the Jewish Federation?

If you work for an organization with clearly defined policies and you violate them you are essentially asking to be fired.

Yes, and an officer in the Arian Brotherhood who converts to Judaism might very well loose his position. And as private organizations the Arian Brotherhood and the Church both have the political right to select their membership and conduct their affairs as they see fit. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Of course, my point isn't about what one's political rights are, but rather about civil and human rights. Part of freedom of conscious is that everyone is not required to respect the civil and human rights of others in their thoughts, speech, ans associations; however, my point is that to do so is wrong.

Yes, the Church can exclude homosexuals from the priesthood, they can place religious doctrines above human beings, just as the Klan can place their racial doctrines above human beings...but in both cases, honest and uprights citizens are compelled by duty to publicly condemn these institutions for the evils they advocate. Just because I defend your political right does not mean that I can morally support your actions.

I am not saying that members of the Church should be compelled by law to stop discriminating based on gender and sexual orientation, I am simply saying that the fact that they do so makes them bad and immoral people. But bad and immoral people have the same rights as good and upright citizens.
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« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2008, 11:58:23 AM »

Then you are good and moral and why do you spend so much time discussing with people you should already know are intransigently bad and immoral?
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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2008, 01:46:28 PM »

Yes, and an officer in the Arian Brotherhood who converts to Judaism might very well loose his position.

That's Aryan. Different kind of brotherhood from Arius' altogether.  Wink
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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2008, 01:58:15 PM »

There's enough evidence to reasonably suggest that the scripture is a moderately accurate mythical history...somewhat akin to the early history of Rome as written by Livy. Jesus was probably a historical person, one of the several messiah-teachers of the day, he was probably a good man with good teachings as recorded in the Gospels, and he was probably tortured and executed by the Romans.

But the extraordinary claims of scripture require extraordinary evidence...and sound evidence for the existence of anything metaphysical simply doesn't exist.

GIC,

Just wondering who or what you've read that's led you to this conclusion. Crossan, Ehrman, Mack? ... Perhaps it hasn't been the detractors themselves that have have convinced you, but a lack of extant texts from the era? Just curious.

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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2008, 02:15:01 PM »

GIC,

Just wondering who or what you've read that's led you to this conclusion. Crossan, Ehrman, Mack? ... Perhaps it hasn't been the detractors themselves that have have convinced you, but a lack of extant texts from the era? Just curious.

The beliefs that Christ was a historical person and a good man would be consistent with those of a JW.
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2008, 02:45:46 PM »

The beliefs that Christ was a historical person and a good man would be consistent with those of a JW.
... and of a Christian. Wink
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« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2008, 02:53:34 PM »

... and of a Christian. Wink

Except Christians believe that Christ rose from the dead on the 3rd day where JW's merely say that Jesus died on a stake and reinterpret the Gospels to de-emphasize the divinity and resurrection of Christ.   Wink
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« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2008, 02:54:39 PM »

Except Christians believe that Christ rose from the dead on the 3rd day where JW's merely say that Jesus died on a stake and reinterpret the Gospels to de-emphasize the divinity and resurrection of Christ.   Wink
Which would lead us to the same conclusion that He is an historical person.
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