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Author Topic: The sui iuris Churches of the Eastern Rite  (Read 9987 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 17, 2008, 11:57:58 AM »

Split from: Orthodox understanding of the roman catholic divine mercy devotion

-- Friul


Um, I'm not Greek Catholic; I'm Byzantine Rite Catholic.

Same thing.  Posters (who are not of the Roman Catholic denomination like myself) are instructed to use the term Greek Catholic or Eastern Rite Catholic as a more appropriate term than something offensive which starts with U.   Smiley

(Oh dear, only my third post here and I'm already in trouble!!!  Grin)

Nah, I wasn't clear in which Jurisdiction one would have heard the Divine Mercy Chaplet until I noticed your "Byzantine Catholic" descriptor under your profile.  My sincere apologies.   Smiley

Edited to clarify my understanding as to how I'm supposed to refer to Byzantine Rite Catholics even when a Byzantine Rite poster refers to his/herself as such.
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2008, 11:59:39 AM »

Same thing.  Posters (who are not of the Roman Catholic denomination) are instructed to use the term Greek Catholic as a more appropriate term than something offensive which starts with U.   Smiley

Nah, I wasn't clear in which Jurisdiction one would have heard the Divine Mercy Chaplet until I noticed your "Byzantine Catholic" descriptor under your profile.  My sincere apologies.   Smiley

But my church is called Byzantine Catholic, not Greek Catholic -- so why would I say Greek Catholic?   Huh

I'm getting a little upset here, so I think I am just going to sign off now because I am crying.   Sad
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2008, 12:04:22 PM »

Um, I'm not Greek Catholic; I'm Byzantine Rite Catholic (actually Latin Rite Catholic, but married to a Byzantine Rite Catholic - is that enough info, sir?  Wink  police).

I never thought of that scenario - a Latin Catholic marrying a Greek Catholic where the Sacrament of Matrimony is completely different in both Rites yet accomplishes the same thing.  In comparison, a Marriage between any Catholic and an Orthodox can only take place in an Orthodox Church officiated by an Orthodox Priest.  Thank you for actually educating me in this forum.   Wink
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 12:11:27 PM »

But my church is called Byzantine Catholic, not Greek Catholic -- so why would I say Greek Catholic?   Huh
I'm getting a little upset here, so I think I am just going to sign off now because I am crying.   Sad

OK, Eastern Rite Catholic is acceptable from my point of view - Forgive me for opening my big mouth.   Cry
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 12:12:43 PM »

OK, Eastern Rite Catholic is acceptable from my point of view - Forgive me for opening my big mouth.   Cry

What exactly is wrong with "Byzantine Rite Catholic"?  I even included the term in the wedding video which we posted on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYwEd3O_ECA
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2008, 12:21:56 PM »

What exactly is wrong with "Byzantine Rite Catholic"?  I even included the term in the wedding video which we posted on Youtube:

AFAIK, nothing if one can make the distinction between a Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Service.
Some people can be confused by the identical Liturgy and Sacraments celebrated by Byzantine Rite Catholics and Eastern Orthodox adherents.

Beautiful wedding video.   Wink
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2008, 12:24:07 PM »

AFAIK, nothing if one can make the distinction between a Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Service.
Some people can be confused by the identical Liturgy and Sacraments celebrated by Byzantine Rite Catholics and Eastern Orthodox adherents.

Beautiful wedding video.   Wink

Thank you!

Is it possible that you just aren't that familiar with the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church?  Perhaps you aren't aware that they are *supposed* to be using the identical Liturgy and Sacraments of their Eastern Orthodox counterparts.  John Paul II particularly encouraged this.  Here is a description of Byzantine Catholics from byzcath.org:

Quote
The spiritual heritage of the Byzantine Catholic Church is the same given to us by the Apostles and which matured in the Christian East, during the period of the Byzantine Empire. This heritage includes the doctrines, liturgical practices and underlying theology and spirituality which came from the Christian Church of the Byzantine Empire. This heritage is shared among all of the Christian peoples, regardless of ethnicity or nationality, who trace their spiritual roots to the Great Church of Constantinople, and the Byzantine religious culture which grew from that Church. From the First Millennium, Christians of the Byzantine tradition have referred to themselves as "Orthodox Christians". Byzantine Catholics are Orthodox Christians who embrace full communion with the Church of Rome and its primate, Pope John Paul II, the successor of St. Peter, the first among the Apostles.

(and perhaps so as not to derail this thread, we should start a new one to discuss this?)
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2008, 12:29:26 PM »

Thank you!

Is it possible that you just aren't that familiar with the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church?  Perhaps you aren't aware that they are *supposed* to be using the identical Liturgy and Sacraments of their Eastern Orthodox counterparts.  John Paul II particularly encouraged this.

(and perhaps so as not to derail this thread, we should start a new one to discuss this?)

The Mods will decide whether or not a new thread is necessary.   Wink

I am familiar with the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church.  I haven't been to an Eastern Rite Catholic Church for the same reasons that I very rarely attend Latin Rite Catholic Churches because Canonical Orthodoxy hasn't been in Communion with the Pope of Rome for almost 1,000 years.

I apologize if I upset you because there has been great controversy with Eastern Rite Catholicism on this board about how Eastern Rite Catholics are to be referred as.  I thought I was walking down the politically correct road by using the term "Greek Catholic"....
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2008, 12:33:16 PM »

Well, I'm new to this board.  I came here in sympathy with some of the Orthodox posters who were kicked off Catholic Answers Forum.  So if I have taken offense too quickly, I apologize too.   Smiley

(Please note I added some info to my post above after you replied to it, which may be of interest to you.  angel)
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2008, 01:00:55 PM »

The Mods will decide whether or not a new thread is necessary.   Wink

And it looks like they have - thanks, Mods!  Grin

I have only been in the Byzantine Rite Church for a few years.  As a matter of fact, that's where I met my husband - I was on a blind date with another Byzantine Catholic, who wanted to show me what a B.C. church looked like.  Unfortunately for him, my (future) husband saw us sitting outside chatting, came over, sat between us and started talking to me about the Byzantine Church - totally outshining my poor blind date!  And the rest is history!  Grin
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2008, 01:32:29 AM »

Well, I'm new to this board.  I came here in sympathy with some of the Orthodox posters who were kicked off Catholic Answers Forum.  So if I have taken offense too quickly, I apologize too.   Smiley

(Please note I added some info to my post above after you replied to it, which may be of interest to you.  angel)

Smiley
I forgot to mention that there has been proselytizing by both Orthodox and Catholics on this board.  The Mods do a great job in keeping things civil and cracking down on both sides those who attempt to proselytize.  In fact, the behavior on this forum ought to emulate the behavior in countries where Eastern Rite Catholics and Orthodox Christians literally worship in neighboring Churches provided that the Orthodox do not receive Communion from the Eastern Rite Catholic Church.   Shocked
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2008, 01:40:43 AM »

Smiley
I forgot to mention that there has been proselytizing by both Orthodox and Catholics on this board.  The Mods do a great job in keeping things civil and cracking down on both sides those who attempt to proselytize.  In fact, the behavior on this forum ought to emulate the behavior in countries where Eastern Rite Catholics and Orthodox Christians literally worship in neighboring Churches provided that the Orthodox do not receive Communion from the Eastern Rite Catholic Church.   Shocked

Countries?  USA is one of them. Where I am from you have Greek Catholic parishes and Eastern Orthodox parishes in the same neighborhoods. 
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2008, 01:47:05 AM »

Countries?  USA is one of them. Where I am from you have Greek Catholic parishes and Eastern Orthodox parishes in the same neighborhoods. 

I was being generic in using Countries....   angel
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2008, 02:00:38 AM »

But my church is called Byzantine Catholic, not Greek Catholic -- so why would I say Greek Catholic?   Huh

I'm getting a little upset here, so I think I am just going to sign off now because I am crying.   Sad

Don't cry!  Greek-Catholic and Byzantine Catholic are two ways of saying the same thing!  It's a complicated Eastern European lesson to explain. It involves invasion, occupation, war, emigration, assimilation and education!
It's an interesting tale.  It is just that "Byzantine Catholic" is a newer fangled way of describing the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. In fact the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church still uses Greek Catholic in its official title.
And really the major difference between the Ruthenian (Rusyn) Byzantine Catholics (who used to go by Greek Catholics as well) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholics are the tones and small traditions in the liturgy.

An interesting read are the two books by Father Larry Barriger, an American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese priest,  'A Good Victory' and 'Glory to Jesus Christ.'
These two books will help you understand the shared history of Rusyns in the USA, whether Eastern Orthodox or Catholic under Rome.

In fact, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church USA was set up to be distinct from the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in what, 1915 for the differences in small tradition, singing (tones) etc.. Oh and the fact that some were from this side of the Carpathian mountains and some were from the other side. 

When Rome enforced celibacy vis-a-vis the papal decree 'Cum Data Fuerit' on March 1, 1929 this sparked many Rusyn Americans (who consequentially called themselves Greek Catholics at the time) to form the American Carpatho-Russian Greek Catholic Orthodox Diocese (www.acrod.org) an Eastern Orthodox diocese within the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.

So it is easy to see that the term Greek Catholic has, was and is used to describe the Eastern Christians who have roots/are from the Carpathian Mountains in Eastern Europe.   


Guess what the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church is called in Slovakia?
http://www.grkatpo.sk/

This is the link to the Greckokatolicke archibiskupstvo of Presov.
Greckokatolicke= Greek Catholic.

http://www.grkatke.sk/  In English this is the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Sts. Cyril and Methodius in Kosice  Slovakia.

The people that founded the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church USA (aka Byzantine Catholic Church in these latter days) were from.......... what is now Slovakia.  So these two links to these eparchies in Slovakia are the mother-dioceses of many people who indeed attend the (Ruthenian) Byzantine Catholic Church USA.
And in Slovakia they still call themselves Greckokatolicke,,,,,,,, Greek Catholics!!

I know I know, you aren't in Slovakia and you aren't a pysanky creating card carrying Slav!  But still, have no fear..
Whether we've been called Greek Catholics, Rusysn, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Byzantine Catholics, All you Christians of the True Faith, Carpatho-Russians, Carpatho-Rusysn......

When it all boiled down to it our grandmothers, babas, great aunts and uncles never used any of these terms.

They simply said, "ah, he's a good man he's one of our people."  or "pro nash" for pro nasemu... our people!

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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2008, 03:55:33 AM »

What a fun thread spin-off.

I always thought WE Orthodox should own the term "Greek Catholic" anyway, so Byzantine Catholic (as we never really used that term "Byzantine" to begin with) works for me.  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2008, 03:48:05 PM »

When it all boiled down to it our grandmothers, babas, great aunts and uncles never used any of these terms.

LOL - I know none of my grandmothers, babas, great aunts and uncles used any of them - all were devout Roman Catholics (on my mom's side) and Methodists (on my dad's).  And I'm willing to bet few/none of them even knew the Eastern Rites existed.

And in all humility I must add -- till a few years ago, neither did I!   Embarrassed  So I'm doing my best to make up for lost time.

Thanks for the info!  I appreciate it!

Christos Anesti!  Wink
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2008, 06:36:50 PM »

Don't cry!  Greek-Catholic and Byzantine Catholic are two ways of saying the same thing!  It's a complicated Eastern European lesson to explain. It involves invasion, occupation, war, emigration, assimilation and education!
It's an interesting tale.  It is just that "Byzantine Catholic" is a newer fangled way of describing the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. In fact the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church still uses Greek Catholic in its official title.
And really the major difference between the Ruthenian (Rusyn) Byzantine Catholics (who used to go by Greek Catholics as well) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholics are the tones and small traditions in the liturgy.

An interesting read are the two books by Father Larry Barriger, an American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese priest,  'A Good Victory' and 'Glory to Jesus Christ.'
These two books will help you understand the shared history of Rusyns in the USA, whether Eastern Orthodox or Catholic under Rome.

In fact, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church USA was set up to be distinct from the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in what, 1915 for the differences in small tradition, singing (tones) etc.. Oh and the fact that some were from this side of the Carpathian mountains and some were from the other side. 

When Rome enforced celibacy vis-a-vis the papal decree 'Cum Data Fuerit' on March 1, 1929 this sparked many Rusyn Americans (who consequentially called themselves Greek Catholics at the time) to form the American Carpatho-Russian Greek Catholic Orthodox Diocese (www.acrod.org) an Eastern Orthodox diocese within the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.

So it is easy to see that the term Greek Catholic has, was and is used to describe the Eastern Christians who have roots/are from the Carpathian Mountains in Eastern Europe.   


Guess what the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church is called in Slovakia?
http://www.grkatpo.sk/

This is the link to the Greckokatolicke archibiskupstvo of Presov.
Greckokatolicke= Greek Catholic.

http://www.grkatke.sk/  In English this is the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Sts. Cyril and Methodius in Kosice  Slovakia.

The people that founded the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church USA (aka Byzantine Catholic Church in these latter days) were from.......... what is now Slovakia.  So these two links to these eparchies in Slovakia are the mother-dioceses of many people who indeed attend the (Ruthenian) Byzantine Catholic Church USA.
And in Slovakia they still call themselves Greckokatolicke,,,,,,,, Greek Catholics!!

I know I know, you aren't in Slovakia and you aren't a pysanky creating card carrying Slav!  But still, have no fear..
Whether we've been called Greek Catholics, Rusysn, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Byzantine Catholics, All you Christians of the True Faith, Carpatho-Russians, Carpatho-Rusysn......

When it all boiled down to it our grandmothers, babas, great aunts and uncles never used any of these terms.

They simply said, "ah, he's a good man he's one of our people."  or "pro nash" for pro nasemu... our people!



Excellent & informative.
Post of the month nominee.
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2008, 07:01:18 PM »

So this may be cause for another thread (not to mention commentroversy  Grin); but overall, how is Eastern Catholicism viewed by (most) Eastern Orthodox?
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2008, 11:03:46 PM »

So this may be cause for another thread (not to mention commentroversy  Grin); but overall, how is Eastern Catholicism viewed by (most) Eastern Orthodox?

I know a lot of people who saw it as the Pope holding a gun to there heads and forcing Catholicism but then again these people also equate Orthodoxy with the eastern rite which can also be problematic.
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2008, 12:48:46 AM »

So this may be cause for another thread (not to mention commentroversy  Grin); but overall, how is Eastern Catholicism viewed by (most) Eastern Orthodox?

Go for it, start another thread.  What facet of Eastern Catholicism under Rome do you want to discuss?  The Byzantine Rite Eastern Cathoilc Churches under Rome?  That would be a good place to start given the shared history and closely related Liturgical typicons, same ethnic groups, same small traditions, etc..


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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2008, 10:41:04 AM »

Making a new thread would be best.  I'll make sure to keep my eye on it since it seems to be a subject that can get extremely heated and off topic fast.   Tongue
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2008, 11:53:40 AM »

Making a new thread would be best.  I'll make sure to keep my eye on it since it seems to be a subject that can get extremely heated and off topic fast.   Tongue

Well, since it's already well over 95 degrees out here in Southern CA, perhaps I'll hold off then.  Especially since I'll be away from the computer this afternoon, looking for shady trees.  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2008, 01:17:07 PM »

Well, since it's already well over 95 degrees out here in Southern CA, perhaps I'll hold off then.  Especially since I'll be away from the computer this afternoon, looking for shady trees.  Grin

Just to update - I went into the archives and found several older threads dealing with this issue (how the EO view the EC).  Since I don't want to start any new fires, I'll keep myself warm with the old ones as long as possible.  Grin

Thanks!
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2008, 03:38:55 PM »

Quote
I apologize if I upset you because there has been great controversy with Eastern Rite Catholicism on this board about how Eastern Rite Catholics are to be referred as.  I thought I was walking down the politically correct road by using the term "Greek Catholic"....

To me the most important thing in this discussion is that in Eastern Europe, they call themselves "Greek Catholics"
and that is the legal name of their church.
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 06:44:50 PM »

To me the most important thing in this discussion is that in Eastern Europe, they call themselves "Greek Catholics"
and that is the legal name of their church.

Yes, I discussed this with my husband last night, who confirmed that.

In my defense, I've only belonged to my Byzantine Catholic parish for a short time (less than 5 years) and have not really learned all the history of it.  But I'm learning!

(I'm also learning more, and becoming more interested in, Eastern Orthodoxy - but that's for another thread, another time.  Wink)
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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2008, 01:43:04 AM »

To me the most important thing in this discussion is that in Eastern Europe, they call themselves "Greek Catholics"
and that is the legal name of their church.

Not only in Eastern Europe but in the diaspora as well.  This diaspora includes the U.S.A.
Theistgal, read the books I referenced below.  They will give you history on all of this Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2008, 08:54:39 AM »

Not only in Eastern Europe but in the diaspora as well.  This diaspora includes the U.S.A.
Theistgal, read the books I referenced below.  They will give you history on all of this Smiley
(bold added by me)

Oops - didn't see any books referenced below your message above - or did you mean in your message further towards the top?

(Or is this one of those Alice in Wonderland things, where up is down and black is white and Sonny is Cher?   Grin  Wink )
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« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2008, 08:54:56 AM »

sorry, duplicate post! (it's only 5:50 a.m. here, please cut me some slack  Grin)
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« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2008, 10:50:56 AM »

So this may be cause for another thread (not to mention commentroversy  Grin); but overall, how is Eastern Catholicism viewed by (most) Eastern Orthodox?

I hope I don't open a can of worms by replying, or offend anyone. Having left the Byzantine Catholic Church (Ruthenian) to return to Orthodoxy last year, I can say that what Eastern Catholicism says about itself in print form, etc. is often not consistent with local practice or what is done by its clergy. A parish is often administered just like any other RC parish, without any perceived need for consensus-building with the congregation, or empowering/ ongoing lay participation in decision-making.

The parish I attended went through a parish priest change that resulted in abandoning Great Vespers in favor of weekly Saturday evening Vesperal Liturgies, which turned out to be attended no differently than Great Vespers was, but is easier for the priest to celebrate. (For those who don't know, Byzantines can make their Roman-like "Sunday obligation to attend liturgy" by going to a Liturgy on Saturday evenings- an option generally unheard of in Orthodoxy. This was the main reason given for making the change- helping parishioners who work on Sunday make their obligation- a Roman concept, not necessarily an Orthodox one.)

It is also very difficult for Byzantines to live a life of Orthodoxy when they have an 800 pound gorilla for a sister (no disrespect intended, honestly!). Fasting is mostly optional, though encouraged, similar to the Romans. The Gregorian calendar is used exclusively by American Ruthenians, not the Julian or modified Julian, again like the Romans. They often end up relying on Roman parishes for space to use for eparchial celebrations instead of making the most of what they have, for a variety of reasons having to do with getting as many people to attend as possible, not just Byzantines- good intentioned, perhaps, but not necessarily helping the church to maintain its own identity. The Vatican is also so far away that by the time some papal decree trickles down to an eparchy (which can take years to implement) it has often been so watered down by reinterpretation as to make significantly less difference at the local level. Hence efforts to restore traditions, like Great Vespers, get sidetracked in favor of meeting a more Roman-oriented Sunday obligation, even though a case can probably be more easily made for restoring Great Vespers in response to papal appeals to return to their traditions.

Byzantine Catholic spokespersons often call themselves Orthodox in communion with Rome, but I don't know any Orthodox that buy that, only Byzantines and Romans. Instead, most I know see Byzantine Catholics as Catholic, not Orthodox. It's kind of like believing your own spin, but outside your own circle it is not necessarily being bought. Byzantines believe it, and don't understand why others do not, but are not necessarily so concerned about that that they would do anything that might make them look more different from their Roman sister than they have to. After all, she's a lot bigger.
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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2008, 07:45:22 PM »

... what Eastern Catholicism says about itself in print form, etc. is often not consistent with local practice or what is done by its clergy. A parish is often administered just like any other RC parish, without any perceived need for consensus-building with the congregation, or empowering/ ongoing lay participation in decision-making.

... It is also very difficult for Byzantines to live a life of Orthodoxy when they have an 800 pound gorilla for a sister (no disrespect intended, honestly!).

... Byzantine Catholic spokespersons often call themselves Orthodox in communion with Rome, but I don't know any Orthodox that buy that, only Byzantines and Romans. Instead, most I know see Byzantine Catholics as Catholic, not Orthodox.

Bingo!  These are the exact same issues I was just discussing with my husband this afternoon.  Like him, I love and support my Byzantine Catholic parish; however, these are the very issues that we have both noticed and struggled with.  Thank you for articulating them so clearly!
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« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2008, 09:56:39 PM »

I hope I don't open a can of worms by replying, or offend anyone. Having left the Byzantine Catholic Church (Ruthenian) to return to Orthodoxy last year, I can say that what Eastern Catholicism says about itself in print form, etc. is often not consistent with local practice or what is done by its clergy. A parish is often administered just like any other RC parish, without any perceived need for consensus-building with the congregation, or empowering/ ongoing lay participation in decision-making.

The parish I attended went through a parish priest change that resulted in abandoning Great Vespers in favor of weekly Saturday evening Vesperal Liturgies, which turned out to be attended no differently than Great Vespers was, but is easier for the priest to celebrate. (For those who don't know, Byzantines can make their Roman-like "Sunday obligation to attend liturgy" by going to a Liturgy on Saturday evenings- an option generally unheard of in Orthodoxy. This was the main reason given for making the change- helping parishioners who work on Sunday make their obligation- a Roman concept, not necessarily an Orthodox one.)

It is also very difficult for Byzantines to live a life of Orthodoxy when they have an 800 pound gorilla for a sister (no disrespect intended, honestly!). Fasting is mostly optional, though encouraged, similar to the Romans. The Gregorian calendar is used exclusively by American Ruthenians, not the Julian or modified Julian, again like the Romans. They often end up relying on Roman parishes for space to use for eparchial celebrations instead of making the most of what they have, for a variety of reasons having to do with getting as many people to attend as possible, not just Byzantines- good intentioned, perhaps, but not necessarily helping the church to maintain its own identity. The Vatican is also so far away that by the time some papal decree trickles down to an eparchy (which can take years to implement) it has often been so watered down by reinterpretation as to make significantly less difference at the local level. Hence efforts to restore traditions, like Great Vespers, get sidetracked in favor of meeting a more Roman-oriented Sunday obligation, even though a case can probably be more easily made for restoring Great Vespers in response to papal appeals to return to their traditions.

Byzantine Catholic spokespersons often call themselves Orthodox in communion with Rome, but I don't know any Orthodox that buy that, only Byzantines and Romans. Instead, most I know see Byzantine Catholics as Catholic, not Orthodox. It's kind of like believing your own spin, but outside your own circle it is not necessarily being bought. Byzantines believe it, and don't understand why others do not, but are not necessarily so concerned about that that they would do anything that might make them look more different from their Roman sister than they have to. After all, she's a lot bigger.
My goodness, your reflections sound quite familiar to me.

I was interested to learn that your BC parish had Vespers, and then canned it. I thought Vespers was kind of rare among the BC but coming back. Has the worm turned already?
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« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2008, 10:24:36 PM »

Bingo!  These are the exact same issues I was just discussing with my husband this afternoon.  Like him, I love and support my Byzantine Catholic parish; however, these are the very issues that we have both noticed and struggled with.  Thank you for articulating them so clearly!
I also have experienced this problem.
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« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2008, 02:50:59 AM »

(bold added by me)

Oops - didn't see any books referenced below your message above - or did you mean in your message further towards the top?

(Or is this one of those Alice in Wonderland things, where up is down and black is white and Sonny is Cher?   Grin  Wink )

Father Larry Barriger's books;

    * Barriger, Lawrence. The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese: A History and Chronology. San Bernardino: St. Willibrord's Press, 1999. (ISBN 0912134216)
    * Barriger, Lawrence. Glory to Jesus Christ!: History of the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church. Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2000. (ISBN 1885652445)
    * Barriger, Lawrence. Good Victory: Metropolitan Orestes Chornock and the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese. Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1985. (ISBN 0917651138)



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« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2008, 04:27:47 AM »

Don't cry!  Greek-Catholic and Byzantine Catholic are two ways of saying the same thing!  It's a complicated Eastern European lesson to explain. It involves invasion, occupation, war, emigration, assimilation and education!
It's an interesting tale.  It is just that "Byzantine Catholic" is a newer fangled way of describing the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. In fact the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church still uses Greek Catholic in its official title.
And really the major difference between the Ruthenian (Rusyn) Byzantine Catholics (who used to go by Greek Catholics as well) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholics are the tones and small traditions in the liturgy.

An interesting read are the two books by Father Larry Barriger, an American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese priest,  'A Good Victory' and 'Glory to Jesus Christ.'
These two books will help you understand the shared history of Rusyns in the USA, whether Eastern Orthodox or Catholic under Rome.

In fact, the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church USA was set up to be distinct from the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in what, 1915 for the differences in small tradition, singing (tones) etc.. Oh and the fact that some were from this side of the Carpathian mountains and some were from the other side. 

When Rome enforced celibacy vis-a-vis the papal decree 'Cum Data Fuerit' on March 1, 1929 this sparked many Rusyn Americans (who consequentially called themselves Greek Catholics at the time) to form the American Carpatho-Russian Greek Catholic Orthodox Diocese (www.acrod.org) an Eastern Orthodox diocese within the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.

So it is easy to see that the term Greek Catholic has, was and is used to describe the Eastern Christians who have roots/are from the Carpathian Mountains in Eastern Europe.   


Guess what the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church is called in Slovakia?
http://www.grkatpo.sk/

This is the link to the Greckokatolicke archibiskupstvo of Presov.
Greckokatolicke= Greek Catholic.

http://www.grkatke.sk/  In English this is the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Sts. Cyril and Methodius in Kosice  Slovakia.

The people that founded the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church USA (aka Byzantine Catholic Church in these latter days) were from.......... what is now Slovakia.  So these two links to these eparchies in Slovakia are the mother-dioceses of many people who indeed attend the (Ruthenian) Byzantine Catholic Church USA.
And in Slovakia they still call themselves Greckokatolicke,,,,,,,, Greek Catholics!!

I know I know, you aren't in Slovakia and you aren't a pysanky creating card carrying Slav!  But still, have no fear..
Whether we've been called Greek Catholics, Rusysn, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Byzantine Catholics, All you Christians of the True Faith, Carpatho-Russians, Carpatho-Rusysn......

When it all boiled down to it our grandmothers, babas, great aunts and uncles never used any of these terms.

They simply said, "ah, he's a good man he's one of our people."  or "pro nash" for pro nasemu... our people!

An excellent post, my brother.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2008, 08:12:39 AM »

Hesychios said, "I was interested to learn that your BC parish had Vespers, and then canned it. I thought Vespers was kind of rare among the BC but coming back. Has the worm turned already?"

It was rare, and is getting rarer. There were almost no parishes in the western eparchy that held Vespers before we left. Even the BCC liturgical commission decided to make vesperal liturgy an integral part of the BCCs new service book introduced in late 2006, instead of providing for the more traditional Vespers and Matins.

BCC Vespers and Matins required a parish to have additional materials that were made available on-line from the Metropolitan Cantor's Institute via download, with emails of the changeable propers. Not sure if that is still happening now. In any case, the parish we attended was more of an exception than the rule by having Saturday evening Vespers instead of vesperal liturgy. Not any more. The vesperal liturgy is shorter, easier, more watered down- important to some BCC clergy, especially those with Roman sensibilities- and Vespers was more complex to put together and implement. Nowadays their liturgies seldom take more than an hour, even their vesperal ones. (I will be unavailable to participate here for about a week, not an intention silence.)
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« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2008, 03:57:30 PM »

An excellent post, my brother.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you my brother! 

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« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2008, 05:34:29 PM »

Excuse my ignorance but what is the difference between Great Vespers and a vesperial liturgy?
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« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2008, 05:43:42 PM »

Didn't the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) use the term "Greek Catholic" at one time too?
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« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2008, 06:10:14 PM »

Didn't the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) use the term "Greek Catholic" at one time too?

Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of North America.  Look at the little black divine liturgy book in an OCA parish and you'll see this name in the book.  In fact they were known as this until they did the name change.

One must remember that through the efforts of St. Alexis Toth leading the Carpathian-mountain immigrants into Orthodoxy that the "Greek Catholics" paved the way for Orthodox to be spread throughout the USA.

At one time the Russian Orthodox were only found in the San Francisco area and Alaska.  Then along came St. Alexis Toth and the Carpathian Mountain region immigrants.  The Orthodox church blossomed with their return to the fold and allowed the church to grow across the nation.

Many of these people came from the Austrian-Hungarian Empire province of Galicia.  Basically modern day se Poland, W Ukraine, E Slovakia.  They were forced to adopt Hungarian culture.  Before them they had other rulers, Polish Kings.  After the Austrian-Hungarian Empire they had Soviet rulers.  They weren't ethnically and culturally identical to the occupying forces. This lead to the adoption of other names, Greek Catholic being one of them.  Since the Church was the center of their religious and social lives in the old world and the new world it is only fitting that these people without their own nation adopted the title Greek Catholic.  Later on Carpatho-Russian, Rusyn, Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Byzantine Catholic, and so on were names adopted.  Think of it this way;  A man immigrating from France has no problem saying he's French.  But a person that was from an occupied country who didn't identify with the occupiers couldn't so easily come up with a name for his identity.
And at the heart of it names are just names. 
Our babas never said "oh, we're Rusyn, Ruthenian, Carpatho-Russian, Lemko, etc.." They always said, "our people."  As in, "he's a great man, he's one of our people."  Pro nash for pro nasemu, "our people."

But I suspect that the term Greek Catholic that appears in the cornerstone of so many Greek Catholic Churches under Rome and Greek Catholic churches that are Eastern Orthodox has much to do with the identity of the founders and benefactors of those holy and sacred temples.  They weren't Russian, they weren't Hungarian.  They were Greek Catholic.  Then later on they found new names.  But at that given time and place in their experience as a people they used the term Greek Catholic to describe their group.  The church was the center of it all.  And now that they are gone I miss those days when the church hall was always buzzing with life and the church was always full for all the services.  Church wasn't for Sundays only.  In those days, until recently I may say, many of the church halls were the place where everyone socialized for everything.  No one really ran off and did their own thing.  They were a tight-knit community that worked, lived, played and prayed together.
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« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2008, 10:01:23 PM »

Quote
Many of these people came from the Austrian-Hungarian Empire province of Galicia.

Actually Toth and the Carpatho-Rusyns/ Ruthenians were not from Galicia.  They were from the area now know as Zakarpathia.  This area at times has been ruled by Hungarians and by Slovaks.

In the days of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Zacarpathia was in the Hungarian part of the Empire.  That is why in the old church  history books or memoirs you can read about oppression by the Hungarian Roman Catholic Church or by Hungarians in general.  Even in the schools in this area, the language of instruction towards the end of the Empire was Hungarian.

Galicia (Halychyna) however, was in the Austrian part of the Empire.
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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2008, 10:18:02 PM »

Actually Toth and the Carpatho-Rusyns/ Ruthenians were not from Galicia.  They were from the area now know as Zakarpathia.  This area at times has been ruled by Hungarians and by Slovaks.

In the days of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Zacarpathia was in the Hungarian part of the Empire.  That is why in the old church  history books or memoirs you can read about oppression by the Hungarian Roman Catholic Church or by Hungarians in general.  Even in the schools in this area, the language of instruction towards the end of the Empire was Hungarian.

Galicia (Halychyna) however, was in the Austrian part of the Empire.

  Regardless they were all subjects in their own land.

There is the Zakarpat'ska Oblast in Ukraine today. Is that what you speak of?  That area?

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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2008, 12:31:59 PM »

Excuse my ignorance but what is the difference between Great Vespers and a vesperial liturgy?

Others may correct me if I'm wrong; however, since I've been been printing out the sheet music for our Vespers/Liturgy tonight for the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, I believe it is:

Great Vespers - is Vespers in its entirety, beginning to end, nothing left out.

Vespers/Liturgy (vesperial liturgy) - Starts with Vespers, usually goes up to the Litja, then switches over to the Liturgy (at the Thrice Holy Hymn).  Neither Vespers nor the Liturgy is done completely beginning to end; parts of both are left out/combined.*

Hope that helps (and is correct!).

(and before anyone else says it, yeah, it's not really the proper (Orthodox) way of doing things.)
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« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2008, 01:54:48 PM »

Byzantine Catholic spokespersons often call themselves Orthodox in communion with Rome, but I don't know any Orthodox that buy that, only Byzantines and Romans.

A lot of us "Byzantines and Romans" don't buy it either, by the way.
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« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2008, 02:01:38 PM »

OK, so I have a question and maybe someone could clarify this:

I was told that *some* (by no means all, but some) Eastern Catholic churches were originally Orthodox, and that the Orthodox of those churches *themselves* asked to be united with Rome in order to be protected from other Orthodox churches who had allied themselves with the Communist government (probably in Russia though I'm not sure).  And that they were well aware at the time it might be difficult to preserve their Orthodoxy but because of the situation, felt it was necessary.

Is this correct?  If so, wouldn't those churches still be Orthodox in a sense?
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« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2008, 09:24:39 PM »

OK, so I have a question and maybe someone could clarify this:

I was told that *some* (by no means all, but some) Eastern Catholic churches were originally Orthodox, and that the Orthodox of those churches *themselves* asked to be united with Rome in order to be protected from other Orthodox churches who had allied themselves with the Communist government (probably in Russia though I'm not sure).  And that they were well aware at the time it might be difficult to preserve their Orthodoxy but because of the situation, felt it was necessary.

Is this correct?  If so, wouldn't those churches still be Orthodox in a sense?

You might look at this. Scroll down to the paragraph that begins with "During the Tübingen interlude" (the third paragraph after the title "Reformation and Counter-Reformation: their double impact").
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