OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 22, 2014, 03:43:41 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 174462 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #990 on: June 05, 2009, 08:34:24 AM »

So I do not see how you can claim "notoriously unstable." 

Well, I do so claim.

Teachings which have been taught and believed for centuries as part of the sacred Tradition may be annulled and superseded by subsequent teachings and definitions.
Well, there's an easy way for you to prove this.  Show us a teaching from any Catholic Council claimed mostly by Latins to be "Ecumenical" which asserts that Purgatorial fire must be believed.  I haven't found it in Florence or Trent.  You seem so sure that Purgatorial fire is a dogma in the Latin Church, though I haven't found it in any conciliar teaching of the Catholic Church post-Schism. Huh  In fact, at Florence, where we all know it was definitely debated, the notion of Purgatorial fire was purposefully excluded from the conciliar decrees!  That seems to be more solid proof than anything that the idea of Purgatorial fire is nothing more than theologoumenon.

Once again, let me repeat my request for a conciliar decree from the Latin Catholic Church definitively asserting belief in Purgatorial fire. And please don't dodge the question.  Just give us a quote or admit that it doesn't exist.

Humbly,
Marduk
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #991 on: June 05, 2009, 09:02:29 AM »


he Florence decree does not even mention Purgatorial fire.  So it might very well be true that there has been no definite Latin - much less generally Catholic - teaching on Purgatorial fire.

Florence was an unmitigated disaster in almost all its actions and decrees.  It failed spectacularly in its aims and it ought to be burieed forever.  The Orthodox spit on it and refer to it disparagingly as a pseudo-council.  It has no place in contemporary discussions in the ecumenical arena except as a how-not-to example

EWTN admits this, quoting Norman Tanner:


The Greek bishops and theologians attended the council of Ferrara from 9 April 1438. The council was transferred to Florence on 10 January 1439.

There, in the session on 6 July 1439, the decree of union with the Greek church was approved.

Subsequently decrees of union with the Armenian and Coptic churches were approved.

Finally the council was transferred to Rome on 24 February 1443.

There other decrees of union with the Bosnians, the Syrians and finally with the Chaldeans and Maronites of Cyprus, were approved.

The last session of the council was held on 7 August 1445.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM


Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #992 on: June 05, 2009, 09:09:43 AM »

So I do not see how you can claim "notoriously unstable." 

Well, I do so claim.

Teachings which have been taught and believed for centuries as part of the sacred Tradition may be annulled and superseded by subsequent teachings and definitions.
Well, there's an easy way for you to prove this.  Show us a teaching from any Catholic Council claimed mostly by Latins to be "Ecumenical" which asserts that Purgatorial fire must be believed.  I haven't found it in Florence or Trent.  You seem so sure that Purgatorial fire is a dogma in the Latin Church, though I haven't found it in any conciliar teaching of the Catholic Church post-Schism. Huh  In fact, at Florence, where we all know it was definitely debated, the notion of Purgatorial fire was purposefully excluded from the conciliar decrees!  That seems to be more solid proof than anything that the idea of Purgatorial fire is nothing more than theologoumenon.

Once again, let me repeat my request for a conciliar decree from the Latin Catholic Church definitively asserting belief in Purgatorial fire. And please don't dodge the question.  Just give us a quote or admit that it doesn't exist.

Humbly,
Marduk

There is none, although people such as Cardinal Julian spoke strongly at Florence for purgatorial fire.

But the fact of the matter is that dozens of Popes and thousands of Catholic Saints and theologians have been lying to the Catholic faithful for many centuries past, teaching them about purgatorial fire, promulgating it as an unquestionable part of the Tradition. 

Don't deceive us any more, Marduk, with your clever argumentation on this point. And don't ask me to supply the hundreds of possible quotes.  If you don't already know them you are not worth your salt as a Catholic.
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #993 on: June 05, 2009, 09:42:31 AM »

So I do not see how you can claim "notoriously unstable." 

Well, I do so claim.

Teachings which have been taught and believed for centuries as part of the sacred Tradition may be annulled and superseded by subsequent teachings and definitions.
Well, there's an easy way for you to prove this.  Show us a teaching from any Catholic Council claimed mostly by Latins to be "Ecumenical" which asserts that Purgatorial fire must be believed.  I haven't found it in Florence or Trent.  You seem so sure that Purgatorial fire is a dogma in the Latin Church, though I haven't found it in any conciliar teaching of the Catholic Church post-Schism. Huh  In fact, at Florence, where we all know it was definitely debated, the notion of Purgatorial fire was purposefully excluded from the conciliar decrees!  That seems to be more solid proof than anything that the idea of Purgatorial fire is nothing more than theologoumenon.

Once again, let me repeat my request for a conciliar decree from the Latin Catholic Church definitively asserting belief in Purgatorial fire. And please don't dodge the question.  Just give us a quote or admit that it doesn't exist.

There is none.
Shocked  Grin

Quote
But the fact of the matter is that dozens of Popes and thousands of Catholic Saints and theologians have been lying to the Catholic faithful for many centuries past, teaching them about purgatorial fire, promulgating it as an unquestionable part of the Tradition.
Why are Latins who teach purgatorial fire "liars?"  Teaching that Purgatorial fire exists is different from teaching that "it is an unquestionable part of the Tradition."  So I suppose every Orthodox person who teaches others about toll houses is a "liar."  Father Seraphim Rose is on record as stating that toll houses are in indispensable part of Tradition.  Can I quote you as stating that Father Seraphim Rose is a liar? 

Quote
Don't deceive us any more, Marduk, with your clever argumentation on this point. And don't ask me to supply the hundreds of possible quotes.  If you don't already know them you are not worth your salt as a Catholic.
Actually, since you are so adamant about this, I would like just 7 quotes, if you could, from Latin Fathers who state that "Purgatorial fire is an unquestionable part of the Tradition."  I am sure there are many Latin saints and theologians who teach ABOUT Purgatorial fire, or casually mention it in a homily.  But I can't imagine there are "thousands" or even "hundreds" who claim "Purgatorial fire is an unquestionable part of the Tradition." You make this haughty claim, so I hope you can back it up.

As far as my being Catholic, I don't see how my knowledge of particular Latin theologoumena has anything to do with my being Catholic. On my journey to Catholicism, 95% of my reading was MAGISTERIAL Church documents.  That I never found any definitive teachings on Purgatorial fire was a sure sign to me that it was only theologoumenon.  No skin off my nose. Grin  I'm not deceiving anyone by merely stating what the Catholic Church dogmatically teaches.  I suggest that maybe it is you who are being deceptive by trying to make a mountain out of not even a molehill.

Humbly,
Marduk
Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #994 on: June 05, 2009, 10:49:05 AM »

I'm still a little confused on chastisement, but I guess it is something like "castigo" in Italian. Still I don't approve the concept. I don't approve the definition of purgatory as a third state, as it contradicts the parable of Lazarus. Jesus indicated only the bosom of Abraham (now paradise) and hades as two distinct places. Even the idea to distinguish between those in hades who are purging and are aware of their final salvation, and those in hades who are tormented and aware of their damnation, sounds to me a little strange. I prefer to believe that purification is offered to all through the fire of hades (the same supernatural fire experienced by the rich man), even if some of them will never be purified at all. I think this was the opinion of those Church Fathers who used concepts near to "apokatastasis".
The problem - i repeat - is having an official doctrine on something no-one of the Church Fathers dared to explain and dogmatize such as life after death. If a non-belief in purgatory were an heresy, there would have been attempts by the Church to clarify the dogma and put heresy to rest long before you introduced it in your official doctrine.
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #995 on: June 05, 2009, 10:49:10 AM »

So I suppose every Orthodox person who teaches others about toll houses is a "liar." 

I call this "the tactic".  When all else fails, start talking about "toll-houses".  Wink

Can I quote you as stating that Father Seraphim Rose is a liar?
 

You have already stated that St Mark of Ephesus was a liar.  I do not think it is wise for others to follow your example.



Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #996 on: June 05, 2009, 11:07:44 AM »

Sigh.  This all seems like a tempest in a teapot to me.

Either:  There's a purgatory with real fire, that everyone has to pass through, either on earth or after death before getting into Heaven.

Or:  There's just Heaven, and any cleansing has to be done before you die.

Either way, the real question I have is - how can any of us possibly KNOW whether this is true, one way or the other?

Why not just live your life doing the best you can to please God, and assume that His mercy will make everything after your death go well?
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #997 on: June 05, 2009, 11:08:25 AM »

Father Seraphim Rose is on record as stating that toll houses are in indispensable part of Tradition.  Can I quote you as stating that Father Seraphim Rose is a liar? 

You would be sinning if you pretended to be so quoting me since I have not said Father Seraphim was a liar.

It is noticeable throughout Fr Seraphim's "The Soul After Death" that he seems to have a multiple belief disorder. He wavers between allegorical
tollhouses (in this he contradicts the teaching of the recent Russian Saints) and an adherence to the physical reality of the tollhouses.

At times he adopts the demythologized approach and at other times he asserts the "traditional" teaching and especially that of Saint Ignaty
Brianchaninov from whom he draws extensively for his own teaching on the tollhouses.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #998 on: June 05, 2009, 11:11:11 AM »


Either:  There's a purgatory with real fire, that everyone has to pass through, either on earth or after death before getting into Heaven.

Or:  There's just Heaven, and any cleansing has to be done before you die.


Thanks.  It's nice to have your refreshing honesty.
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #999 on: June 05, 2009, 11:37:59 AM »

Why not just live your life doing the best you can to please God, and assume that His mercy will make everything after your death go well?

Amen.
Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #1000 on: June 05, 2009, 11:48:04 AM »

And P.S., just wanted to add, I'm not trying to be rude to anyone.

It's just that I'm going through one of my periodic "bouts with doubt".  One of the good things about that is that focusing the mind on the Big, Huge, Ultimate Question (is there or isn't there a God?) makes you far less likely to stress out over little things like purgatory.  Grin
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #1001 on: June 05, 2009, 12:05:52 PM »

It's just that I'm going through one of my periodic "bouts with doubt".  One of the good things about that is that focusing the mind on the Big, Huge, Ultimate Question (is there or isn't there a God?) makes you far less likely to stress out over little things like purgatory.  Grin

I once heard an abbot of a monastery say that the dry periods we experience are when we grow the most in our faith.  If there is only consolation, there will never be any real growth.

Hang in there and keep praying.  Smiley
Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #1002 on: June 05, 2009, 01:14:26 PM »

I once heard an abbot of a monastery say that the dry periods we experience are when we grow the most in our faith.  If there is only consolation, there will never be any real growth.

Hang in there and keep praying.  Smiley

Will do.  And I'm also going to build a garden.  Perhaps sticking my hands in manure every day will help me grow too!  Grin
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #1003 on: June 05, 2009, 02:27:33 PM »

Will do.  And I'm also going to build a garden.  Perhaps sticking my hands in manure every day will help me grow too!  Grin

Manure is the best! I had one metric ton of it dumped in my yard last fall for my garden. It works wonders! And it also helps us remember that anything we do aside from Christ----is nothing but dung.  Smiley
Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #1004 on: June 05, 2009, 03:24:28 PM »

Will do.  And I'm also going to build a garden.  Perhaps sticking my hands in manure every day will help me grow too!  Grin

Manure is the best! I had one metric ton of it dumped in my yard last fall for my garden. It works wonders! And it also helps us remember that anything we do aside from Christ----is nothing but dung.  Smiley

Yes, and/or straw (http://maverickphilosopher.powerblogs.com/posts/1141517739.shtml).  Wink

(which would make a KICKIN' soil mix! Grin)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 03:25:35 PM by theistgal » Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #1005 on: June 05, 2009, 03:41:15 PM »

Now I'm reminded why I hated gardening. Tongue
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #1006 on: June 05, 2009, 04:56:31 PM »

Quote
That seems to be more solid proof than anything that the idea of Purgatorial fire is nothing more than theologoumenon.

Wait, are you saying that purgatory in the Roman Catholic Church is theologoumenon? Or is Purgatorial Fire theologoumenon? Or are they both the same thing?
Logged

signature
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1007 on: June 05, 2009, 06:57:22 PM »

Quote
That seems to be more solid proof than anything that the idea of Purgatorial fire is nothing more than theologoumenon.

Wait, are you saying that purgatory in the Roman Catholic Church is theologoumenon? Or is Purgatorial Fire theologoumenon? Or are they both the same thing?

From Fr Hardon, one of Catholicism's major apologists and theologians

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456).
 
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

And - from the teachings of Peter conveyed as divinely revealed truth by Pope Paul VI

2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments

That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those "who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments.

~Pope Paul VI

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html


« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 06:57:59 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1008 on: June 05, 2009, 07:38:03 PM »

Quote
That seems to be more solid proof than anything that the idea of Purgatorial fire is nothing more than theologoumenon.

Wait, are you saying that purgatory in the Roman Catholic Church is theologoumenon? Or is Purgatorial Fire theologoumenon? Or are they both the same thing?
Purgatorial fire is theologoumenon, not the concept of Purgatory. As Father Ambrose quoted from a "major apologist and theologian", it is a belief restricted to the Latin Church, and even then, he does not say that it is a defined belief of the Latin Church (i.e., imposed on the faithful).  In the Catholic Church as a whole, purgatorial fire is nothing more than theologoumenon.
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1009 on: June 05, 2009, 07:43:57 PM »

And - from the teachings of Peter conveyed as divinely revealed truth by Pope Paul VI

2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments

That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those "who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments.

~Pope Paul VI
We don't need your misleading highlights to read the truth of the matter.  Pope Paul VI specifically indicated that the "divinely revealed truth" is that "sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice."  I hope you are not going to deny that divinely revealed truth.  The rest is simply his own, non-dogmatic explanation of it.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 07:44:32 PM by Mardukm » Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1010 on: June 05, 2009, 07:52:17 PM »


Either:  There's a purgatory with real fire, that everyone has to pass through, either on earth or after death before getting into Heaven.

Or:  There's just Heaven, and any cleansing has to be done before you die.


Thanks.  It's nice to have your refreshing honesty.
It's honest because she is a LATIN Catholic, and that is what she learned from her teachers in her particular Church.  I am an ORIENTAL Catholic and have never been taught nor believed in Purgatorial fire. In any case, does sister Theistgal's OWN belief mean that if a Latin Catholic did not believe in Purgatorial fire, or that a Latin Catholic catechist taught there is no real purgatorial fire, then that means he or she is excommunicated?  I've challenged you to give us a formal magisterial definition on the matter (definitions are where one finds proscriptions of excommunications or anathemas for lack of belief in something), and you have admitted that there is none.  The dishonesty seems to rest with your claims.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1011 on: June 05, 2009, 07:56:29 PM »

[
As Father Ambrose quoted from a "major apologist and theologian",

You seem unaware of Fr Hardon's place and stature in the Catholic Church?  He is not only a significant theologian esteemed by the Popes but he is on the path to canonisation.

Source :: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hardon

John A. S. A. Hardon, S.J. (June 18, 1914 – December 30, 2000) was a Catholic priest, writer, and theologian. He is the founder of The Holy Trinity Apostolate.[1][2]

Hardon was born into a devout Catholic family in Midland, Pennsylvania and raised in Cleveland, Ohio. He obtained his bachelor's degree at John Carroll University before entering the Society of Jesus in 1936. He obtained a master's degree in philosophy at Loyola University Chicago, studied theology at West Baden College in West Baden, Indiana and was ordained a priest on June 18, 1947 on his 33rd birthday. He received his doctorate in theology from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome.

Father Hardon was a very prominent member of the Jesuit community, which is known for its academic rigor, and wrote dozens of books on religion and theology, including: The Catholic Catechism (1975), a defining volume of Catholic orthodoxy; and the Modern Catholic Dictionary[3](1980), the first major Catholic reference dictionary published after the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965). Hardon was also a major contributor to Catholic newspapers and magazines and was executive editor of The Catholic Faith magazine. Hardon had a close working relationship with Pope Paul VI, engaging in several initiatives at the Pope's request, including his authoring of The Catholic Catechism.

Father Hardon's Catholic Catechism was a significant post–Vatican II work in the sense that it essentially brought modern Catholic teaching and faith into one book, unlike any other before, and was a precursor to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is the official codified teaching of the Catholic Church, promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992. Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of that document.

Father Hardon died in Clarkston, Michigan, on December 30, 2000 after suffering from several illnesses. Having been known throughout his life as a holy man, there is interest among some Catholics for his beatification and a Church-sanctioned prayer for that cause has been written. According to Church law, Father Hardon could have his cause for beatification opened by the Church as early as December 30, 2005. If that happens it would place him on the path towards possible sainthood. An effort is underway to establish a Father Hardon library and study center at the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in La Crosse, Wisconsin.


Update on the Beatification of Fr John Hardon
http://www.mariancatechist.com/html/general/stjohnhardon.htm
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1012 on: June 05, 2009, 08:00:37 PM »

It's honest because she is a LATIN Catholic, and that is what she learned from her teachers in her particular Church.  I am an ORIENTAL Catholic and have never been taught nor believed in Purgatorial fire. In any case, does sister Theistgal's OWN belief mean that if a Latin Catholic did not believe in Purgatorial fire, or that a Latin Catholic catechist taught there is no real purgatorial fire, then that means he or she is excommunicated?  I've challenged you to give us a formal magisterial definition on the matter (definitions are where one finds proscriptions of excommunications or anathemas for lack of belief in something), and you have admitted that there is none.  The dishonesty seems to rest with your claims.

In other words, the entire thing is a mess.   The sacred Tradition has no validity and certainty for Catholics at all until it is given a formal magisterial definition.   That is a ridiculous position.  It is bogged down in a dead legalism which denigrates the Tradition.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1013 on: June 05, 2009, 08:04:41 PM »

And - from the teachings of Peter conveyed as divinely revealed truth by Pope Paul VI

2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments

That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those "who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments.

~Pope Paul VI
We don't need your misleading highlights to read the truth of the matter.  Pope Paul VI specifically indicated that the "divinely revealed truth" is that "sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice."  I hope you are not going to deny that divinely revealed truth.  The rest is simply his own, non-dogmatic explanation of it.


An example of the word games which remind the Orthodox time and again that dialoguing with some Catholics can be an exercise in futility.
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1014 on: June 05, 2009, 08:29:25 PM »

I'm still a little confused on chastisement, but I guess it is something like "castigo" in Italian. Still I don't approve the concept. I don't approve the definition of purgatory as a third state, as it contradicts the parable of Lazarus. Jesus indicated only the bosom of Abraham (now paradise) and hades as two distinct places. Even the idea to distinguish between those in hades who are purging and are aware of their final salvation, and those in hades who are tormented and aware of their damnation, sounds to me a little strange. I prefer to believe that purification is offered to all through the fire of hades (the same supernatural fire experienced by the rich man), even if some of them will never be purified at all.
Well, then I really don't see what your objection is.  Your own explanation of your belief does not contradict anything of the dogma of Purgatory at all.  First, approaching it from your perspective as a Latin, the Latin Church does not claim to know who is going to hell - only God knows that.  That is why one of the Eucharistic Prayers of the Latin Liturgy (I forget the number) is a general prayer for the dead, and not just the righteous.  

Second, you say you don't approve that there is a third state, yet simultaneously admit that hades exists. Huh  Huh  Huh  Hades certainly is not eternal bliss ("heaven") nor eternal damnation ("hell").  No matter how you cut it, that's a "third state" brother.

Third, perhaps (just perhaps) you are stuck in your prior Latin understanding of Purgatory as a "place" instead of a "state."  The idea, as you have expressed your belief in, that purification can occur in Hades seems - to me anyway - to match up with the idea of Purgatory.  The dogma of Purgatory does not claim there is a certain "place" for the righteous, and a certain "place" for reprobates.  It simply states that the purification or perfection of the souls of the righteous DOES IN FACT STILL OCCUR in the afterlife.  THAT's IT. It doesn't even dogmatize the idea that ONLY the righteous will experience purifying fires. Actually, it's completely possible that those who WE think are "reprobate" will really - in GOD's EYES - be counted among the "righteous."  The dogma of Purgatory doesn't make any statement on the matter either way.  To repeat, all that the dogma states is that the righteous CAN still experience purification or perfection after death. THAT's IT. The dogma of Purgatory does not make any positive or negative statement about ANYTHING else (aside from the fact that the prayers and suffrages of the Church, especially the Holy Sacrifice, redounds to the benefit of these souls).    

Quote
The problem - i repeat - is having an official doctrine on something no-one of the Church Fathers dared to explain and dogmatize such as life after death. If a non-belief in purgatory were an heresy, there would have been attempts by the Church to clarify the dogma and put heresy to rest long before you introduced it in your official doctrine.
So far, your expressed belief does not seem to contradict anything of the dogma of Purgatory, as distinct from the several undefined pious beliefs you have mentioned.  Would it be correct to say that your only real objection then is that it has been dogmatized?  That souls can experience purification after death seems to be a UNANIMOUS belief of the early Church.  Are you saying that it is OK now for individuals to reject this teaching?  Personally, the obligation of Sacred Tradition itself would have been sufficient for me to believe in what the Catholic Church calls Purgatory. It was only dogmatized because the Protestants were denying it.  But even without the dogmatization, its unanimous existence in Sacred Tradition would be sufficient to impose an obligation of assent of faith on the matter for any apostolic Christian.

Blessings
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1015 on: June 05, 2009, 08:31:44 PM »

Dearest Father Ambrose,

Thanks for the info, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with our topic.  I put my statement in quotes because I was quoting you, not because I denied it. Huh

Humbly,
Marduk

[
As Father Ambrose quoted from a "major apologist and theologian",

You seem unaware of Fr Hardon's place and stature in the Catholic Church?  He is not only a significant theologian esteemed by the Popes but he is on the path to canonisation.

Source :: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hardon

John A. S. A. Hardon, S.J. (June 18, 1914 – December 30, 2000) was a Catholic priest, writer, and theologian. He is the founder of The Holy Trinity Apostolate.[1][2]

Hardon was born into a devout Catholic family in Midland, Pennsylvania and raised in Cleveland, Ohio. He obtained his bachelor's degree at John Carroll University before entering the Society of Jesus in 1936. He obtained a master's degree in philosophy at Loyola University Chicago, studied theology at West Baden College in West Baden, Indiana and was ordained a priest on June 18, 1947 on his 33rd birthday. He received his doctorate in theology from the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome.

Father Hardon was a very prominent member of the Jesuit community, which is known for its academic rigor, and wrote dozens of books on religion and theology, including: The Catholic Catechism (1975), a defining volume of Catholic orthodoxy; and the Modern Catholic Dictionary[3](1980), the first major Catholic reference dictionary published after the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965). Hardon was also a major contributor to Catholic newspapers and magazines and was executive editor of The Catholic Faith magazine. Hardon had a close working relationship with Pope Paul VI, engaging in several initiatives at the Pope's request, including his authoring of The Catholic Catechism.

Father Hardon's Catholic Catechism was a significant post–Vatican II work in the sense that it essentially brought modern Catholic teaching and faith into one book, unlike any other before, and was a precursor to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is the official codified teaching of the Catholic Church, promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992. Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of that document.

Father Hardon died in Clarkston, Michigan, on December 30, 2000 after suffering from several illnesses. Having been known throughout his life as a holy man, there is interest among some Catholics for his beatification and a Church-sanctioned prayer for that cause has been written. According to Church law, Father Hardon could have his cause for beatification opened by the Church as early as December 30, 2005. If that happens it would place him on the path towards possible sainthood. An effort is underway to establish a Father Hardon library and study center at the Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in La Crosse, Wisconsin.


Update on the Beatification of Fr John Hardon
http://www.mariancatechist.com/html/general/stjohnhardon.htm
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1016 on: June 05, 2009, 08:46:29 PM »

It's honest because she is a LATIN Catholic, and that is what she learned from her teachers in her particular Church.  I am an ORIENTAL Catholic and have never been taught nor believed in Purgatorial fire. In any case, does sister Theistgal's OWN belief mean that if a Latin Catholic did not believe in Purgatorial fire, or that a Latin Catholic catechist taught there is no real purgatorial fire, then that means he or she is excommunicated?  I've challenged you to give us a formal magisterial definition on the matter (definitions are where one finds proscriptions of excommunications or anathemas for lack of belief in something), and you have admitted that there is none.  The dishonesty seems to rest with your claims.

In other words, the entire thing is a mess.   The sacred Tradition has no validity and certainty for Catholics at all until it is given a formal magisterial definition.   That is a ridiculous position.  It is bogged down in a dead legalism which denigrates the Tradition.
The position is not ridiculous, you trying to make a mountain of not even a molehill is.  Individual Catholics are just fine with their faith without wondering if it's defined or not.  Each Catholic learns from their teachers.  If it ever comes to a head, then and only then will there be a need for a definition. Sister Theistgal does not even want to be bothered by this debate - and probably a multitude of Catholics are not even concerned with the matter.  As your posts demonstrates, it is people like you who try to make an artificial " mess"  of what Catholics believe.  No Catholic waits hand and foot for definitions (well - a few might).  Many Catholics live their Faith without need for definitions.  The Catholic Church makes definitions only when it is needed.  There is no preoccupation with defining things, any more nor less than the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils did.

The problem here is not Catholicism, but your own twisted, straw-man version of it, more likely.  As a great Latin Archbishop once said, not 100 people in the world reject Catholicism for what it is, but rather what they THINK it is.  Father, I sincerely believe you are one of those 100 people. Grin

Humbly,
Marduk
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1017 on: June 06, 2009, 12:33:48 AM »

It's honest because she is a LATIN Catholic, and that is what she learned from her teachers in her particular Church.  I am an ORIENTAL Catholic and have never been taught nor believed in Purgatorial fire. In any case, does sister Theistgal's OWN belief mean that if a Latin Catholic did not believe in Purgatorial fire, or that a Latin Catholic catechist taught there is no real purgatorial fire, then that means he or she is excommunicated?  I've challenged you to give us a formal magisterial definition on the matter (definitions are where one finds proscriptions of excommunications or anathemas for lack of belief in something), and you have admitted that there is none.  The dishonesty seems to rest with your claims.

In other words, the entire thing is a mess.   The sacred Tradition has no validity and certainty for Catholics at all until it is given a formal magisterial definition.   That is a ridiculous position.  It is bogged down in a dead legalism which denigrates the Tradition.
Get a load of you.  I give a strict interpretation of the words as it is.  It is YOU who highlight two separate sections of the quote, and create a straw man caricature of what it actually said.  And then you have the gall of accusing me of playing word games?  The hypocrisy.
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1018 on: June 06, 2009, 12:51:10 AM »

Erased due to repeat post.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 12:58:23 AM by Mardukm » Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1019 on: June 06, 2009, 12:54:23 AM »

Father Seraphim Rose is on record as stating that toll houses are in indispensable part of Tradition.  Can I quote you as stating that Father Seraphim Rose is a liar? 

You would be sinning if you pretended to be so quoting me since I have not said Father Seraphim was a liar.
So if a Catholic person were to claim that a theologoumenon is an "indispensable part of Tradition," then the Catholic is a liar.  But if an Eastern Orthodox person claims that a theologoumenon is an "indispensable part of Tradition," he is not.  Some more of your typical double standard.  And you're a priest-monk.  Have you no shame, Father?

Quote
It is noticeable throughout Fr Seraphim's "The Soul After Death" that he seems to have a multiple belief disorder. He wavers between allegorical
tollhouses (in this he contradicts the teaching of the recent Russian Saints) and an adherence to the physical reality of the tollhouses.

At times he adopts the demythologized approach and at other times he asserts the "traditional" teaching and especially that of Saint Ignaty
Brianchaninov from whom he draws extensively for his own teaching on the tollhouses.
Father Seraphim is not displaying a "disorder." It seems to me that he is simply explaining that there are different understandings of the toll house doctrine in Eastern Orthodoxy.  However, he does assert that that the tollhouse doctrine is an indispensable part of the Tradition of EO'xy.  But, unlike you, I wouldn't call a person who holds a sincere belief a "liar."  I rather respect and try to understand where other Traditions are coming from.  I wouldn't go around calling people crazy or a liar for holding a particular belief.  As an Oriental, there are several things I disagree on with the Latin and Eastern Byzantine Traditions, but, true to my Oriental roots, I try to understand what others are saying to see if, despite our different expressions, we might not really be saying the same thing.  I think many EO, such as yourself, are more legalistic in the approach to faith, and therefore have a real problem with other apostolic Traditions besides the Byzantine.  This discussion on purgatorial fire is a case in point.  It is not the Latin Church who is making it a divisive issue, but people like yourself in order to appease your legalistic mindset (though you simultaneously claim otherwise).  Another example - it is not Orientals or Catholics who make a divisive issue about using unleavened bread in the Eucharist, but you find it a lot from the Eastern Orthodox.  There are SOOO many other issues on which a non-EO polemicist can accuse the EO Church as a whole of being legalistic and hypocritical.  Sometimes, I am tempted to give in to that anger and make generalizations.  But I realize that polemical EO such as yourself do not represent ALL of Eastern Orthodoxy, and that there is, despite what many might say, a genuine hope for unity in understanding and brotherly love among the Churches.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 01:01:35 AM by Mardukm » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1020 on: June 06, 2009, 08:43:00 AM »


Father Seraphim is not displaying a "disorder." It seems to me that he is simply explaining that there are different understandings of the toll house doctrine in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I take it it that you do not have any great familiarity with his book. 

Quote
However, he does assert that that the tollhouse doctrine is an indispensable part of the Tradition of EO'xy.  But, unlike you, I wouldn't call a person who holds a sincere belief a "liar."

Let me repeat this:  I DID  NOT  CALL  FATHER  SERAPHIM  A LIAR.   

Quote
I rather respect and try to understand where other Traditions are coming from.  I wouldn't go around calling people crazy or a liar for holding a particular belief.  As an Oriental, there are several things I disagree on with the Latin and Eastern Byzantine Traditions, but, true to my Oriental roots, I try to understand what others are saying to see if, despite our different expressions, we might not really be saying the same thing.  I think many EO, such as yourself, are more legalistic in the approach to faith, and therefore have a real problem with other apostolic Traditions besides the Byzantine.  This discussion on purgatorial fire is a case in point.  It is not the Latin Church who is making it a divisive issue, but people like yourself in order to appease your legalistic mindset (though you simultaneously claim otherwise).  Another example - it is not Orientals or Catholics who make a divisive issue about using unleavened bread in the Eucharist, but you find it a lot from the Eastern Orthodox.  There are SOOO many other issues on which a non-EO polemicist can accuse the EO Church as a whole of being legalistic and hypocritical.  Sometimes, I am tempted to give in to that anger and make generalizations.  But I realize that polemical EO such as yourself do not represent ALL of Eastern Orthodoxy, and that there is, despite what many might say, a genuine hope for unity in understanding and brotherly love among the Churches.

I realise that ecumenists of your particular ilk are convinced that the Orthodox understandings of such things as original sin and purification after death and the immaculate conception are essentally the same.    At the risk of bring accused of 'legalism' let me say that they are not.

The hope for "unity in understanding and brotherly love among the Churches" is not advanced by your constant insistence that there are no essential differences.   If anything that only impedes any advance towards unity or understanding.  Catholics will wake up one day and say:  "Hey, what was Marduk claiming?  Look here, there are Orthodox quite opposed to him.  We've wasted precious years, misled by accepting what Marduk has told us.  Back to the beginning to find out what the Orthodox really believe."
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #1021 on: June 06, 2009, 06:43:59 PM »


In any case, as you might know, Mark of Ephesus lied...


I wouldn't go around calling people crazy or a liar for holding a particular belief. 


Oh the hypocrisy!  Shocked


Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #1022 on: June 06, 2009, 07:09:10 PM »


In any case, as you might know, Mark of Ephesus lied...


I wouldn't go around calling people crazy or a liar for holding a particular belief. 


Oh the hypocrisy!  Shocked

The difference a day makes....
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1023 on: June 08, 2009, 02:02:34 AM »


Father Seraphim is not displaying a "disorder." It seems to me that he is simply explaining that there are different understandings of the toll house doctrine in Eastern Orthodoxy.

I take it it that you do not have any great familiarity with his book.
 
Unless he himself claims that his explanations are "disordered," then I don't care either way for your caricature of him.  I have read another book by him where he insists it is an indispensable part of Eastern Tradition.

Quote
Quote
However, he does assert that that the tollhouse doctrine is an indispensable part of the Tradition of EO'xy.  But, unlike you, I wouldn't call a person who holds a sincere belief a "liar."

Let me repeat this:  I DID  NOT  CALL  FATHER  SERAPHIM  A LIAR.
Yes, I know you are now claiming that, but you can only claim that by disobeying Christ and applying "weights and measures" (which the Lord hates) - your double standard.  Either you consistently apply your principle which means Father Seraphim is a liar, or you should apologize for calling Catholics liars just because there are those who teach to their own members that something is an indispensable part of Tradition even though it is only theologoumenon.

Quote
Quote
I rather respect and try to understand where other Traditions are coming from.  I wouldn't go around calling people crazy or a liar for holding a particular belief.  As an Oriental, there are several things I disagree on with the Latin and Eastern Byzantine Traditions, but, true to my Oriental roots, I try to understand what others are saying to see if, despite our different expressions, we might not really be saying the same thing.  I think many EO, such as yourself, are more legalistic in the approach to faith, and therefore have a real problem with other apostolic Traditions besides the Byzantine.  This discussion on purgatorial fire is a case in point.  It is not the Latin Church who is making it a divisive issue, but people like yourself in order to appease your legalistic mindset (though you simultaneously claim otherwise).  Another example - it is not Orientals or Catholics who make a divisive issue about using unleavened bread in the Eucharist, but you find it a lot from the Eastern Orthodox.  There are SOOO many other issues on which a non-EO polemicist can accuse the EO Church as a whole of being legalistic and hypocritical.  Sometimes, I am tempted to give in to that anger and make generalizations.  But I realize that polemical EO such as yourself do not represent ALL of Eastern Orthodoxy, and that there is, despite what many might say, a genuine hope for unity in understanding and brotherly love among the Churches.

I realise that ecumenists of your particular ilk are convinced that the Orthodox understandings of such things as original sin and purification after death and the immaculate conception are essentally the same.    At the risk of bring accused of 'legalism' let me say that they are not.

The hope for "unity in understanding and brotherly love among the Churches" is not advanced by your constant insistence that there are no essential differences.   If anything that only impedes any advance towards unity or understanding.  Catholics will wake up one day and say:  "Hey, what was Marduk claiming?  Look here, there are Orthodox quite opposed to him.  We've wasted precious years, misled by accepting what Marduk has told us.  Back to the beginning to find out what the Orthodox really believe."
Yes, this is why it is hard for the EO as a whole to accept the orthodoxy of the OO as regards the natures of Christ (while this particular issue has already been officially resolved between the Catholic and Oriental Orthodox Churches - I myself am a miaphysite Catholic).  Because there are people like you who espouse this principle of closing yourself off to legitimate discussion understanding.  And we have people like brother Isa who prides himself on quoting statements from the EO hierarchy stating that those who use unleavened bread cannot be united to the EO (which is hurtful to OO, particularly the Armenians and Ethiopians).  Your intransigent, divisive principles against Catholics will only be a detrimental to your relationship with the OO in the long run.  Hatred and prejudice tends to rub off on others with whom you come into contact, whether in person or the internet.  I pray you have a change of heart, so God can use you as a tool for understanding instead of the Adversary using you as a tool for discord.

Humbly,
Marduk
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #1024 on: June 08, 2009, 02:07:47 AM »


In any case, as you might know, Mark of Ephesus lied...


I wouldn't go around calling people crazy or a liar for holding a particular belief. 


Oh the hypocrisy!  Shocked
It is so typical of you to quote me incompletely.  Those who have read what I actually stated will disagree with you, and will only demonstrate how underhanded you are in your treatment of others.

Specifically, I stated that I would never call a person a liar just because of their own sincere belief about something.  In contrast, Mark of Ephesus was a liar for inducing people to believe that Florence was going to impose a belief of Purgatorial fire on them - the proof is in the fact that there is not even any mention of Purgatorial fire in the Florence decrees.

I pray you will have a more gentle heart towards your Catholic brethren in the future.

Blessings,
Marduk
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1025 on: June 08, 2009, 03:54:55 AM »

 
Unless he himself claims that his explanations are "disordered," then I don't care either way for your caricature of him.  I have read another book by him where he insists it is an indispensable part of Eastern Tradition.

Well the good Father is simply talking through a hole in his skufya.   You will find clergy and faithful who have never heard of the toll houses.

As well as that you will find clergy who do know of it and deny it has any place in tradition.  In January and February 2003 we had an Archpriest from Irkutsk Fr R.. S.. in our Wellington, New Zealand parish. He is back in Irkutsk where he is first priest at the Theophany (Bogoyavlenski) cathedral. We keep in touch via e-mail and I decided to ask him his opinion of the toll-houses. He is a serious man given to conciseness and he sent back a brief answer...

 
"The opinion about the toll-houses among the people
is quite positive and they love to talk about them.
But among the clergy and theologians there are diverse
opinions, and they consider them to be a uniate-catholic
influence stemming from purgatory."


So there is no consensus in Russia. Some clergy and theologians see tollers as being under "uniate-catholic influence." It is impossible to say that
this is a "universal" and "non-debatable" tradition. Even in Russia it is opposed.

Btw, he mentions also that the reason they are so talked about among the people is Fr Seraphim Rose's book which has been printed in Russian translation in great quantity!

As you know this became such a vexed questuion among American converts (again thanks to Fr Seraphim and his writings) that the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Church Abroad issued a statement at a Synod meeting in December 1980 that the Lord has been pleased to reveal very little about the afterlife and conjectures beyond what He has revealed are not beneficial to our salvation.  (I don't suppose you want to show us where the Saviour taught us of the toll houses in the four Gospels!  Smiley )



Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1026 on: June 08, 2009, 04:02:20 AM »

Let me repeat this:  I DID  NOT  CALL  FATHER  SERAPHIM  A LIAR.
Yes, I know you are now claiming that, but you can only claim that by disobeying Christ and applying "weights and measures" (which the Lord hates) - your double standard.  Either you consistently apply your principle which means Father Seraphim is a liar,

You "logic" is out of the ball park.   This is in fact a good example of why people are wary of your theological opinions.  They can be based on a thin line of logic which is just not apparent to the rest of us.  As so many times before, I would really urge you to run your theological opinions past a competent Catholic theologian before you present them to the world as the teaching of the Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 04:06:25 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1027 on: June 08, 2009, 04:40:23 AM »

[Specifically, I stated that I would never call a person a liar just because of their own sincere belief about something.  In contrast, Mark of Ephesus was a liar for inducing people to believe that Florence was going to impose a belief of Purgatorial fire on them

Saint Mark of Ephesus said to be a liar

I don't think you can manufacture out of thin air charges of Saints being liars.  Obviously you must have some reference for your charge against Saint Mark.  Would you please supply it.

Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #1028 on: June 08, 2009, 08:19:35 AM »

In contrast, Mark of Ephesus was a liar...

This is the second time you have accused a highly venerated saint of the Holy Orthodox Church of being a liar.  It is reasonable at this point that you offer a retraction and an apology to the Orthodox Christians on this forum. Such behavior is reprehensible.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 08:21:21 AM by Mickey » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #1029 on: June 08, 2009, 08:24:39 AM »

I pray you will have a more gentle heart towards your Catholic brethren in the future.

I dearly love my Latin and Eastern Catholic family and friends. It is your odd theology and accusations against Orthodox saints that I am not fond of.

Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #1030 on: June 08, 2009, 10:44:42 AM »

Addendum: I love my protestant family and friends also.  Smiley
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #1031 on: June 08, 2009, 12:35:37 PM »

...how underhanded you are... 


Because there are people like you who espouse this principle of closing yourself off to legitimate discussion understanding.


And we have people like brother Isa

Your intransigent, divisive principles against Catholics…


Hatred and prejudice tends to rub off on others with whom you come into contact, whether in person or the internet.


When we point the finger at someone…there are three fingers pointing back at ourselves.

How very sad it is for me to read your posts.  When someone disagrees with your non-Orthodox theological opinions, you tend to lash out with a myriad of accusations and insults. And it is not enough that you lambaste other posters, but you feel the necessity to call a great Orthodox saint “a liar”.

It is understandable that you fervently attempt to justify your conversion to the Latin Church. But there is no need to attack people so callously.
Logged
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #1032 on: June 08, 2009, 01:48:56 PM »

This thread seems to be getting a little too personal and it is beginning to hinder proper discussion.  I will be locking it until Friday, to allow for cooler heads and a true discussion/debate to start up again.  This is a great catch-all thread, so it will be re-opened.

EDIT: Unlocked.

-- Nebelpfade, Section Moderator
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 07:06:22 PM by Nebelpfade » Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1033 on: March 29, 2010, 01:24:50 AM »

* B U M P *

To offer the possibility to continue the discussion on indulgences
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #1034 on: March 29, 2010, 02:41:17 AM »

* B U M P *

To offer the possibility to continue the discussion on indulgences
OK. Here's a question. Do Orthodox believe that there could be punishment for sins which is not eternal? Or is eternal damnation in hell the only possible punishment in the afterlife for a sin?
Logged
Tags: indulgences purgatory Hell forgiveness after death toll houses apokatastasis 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.179 seconds with 73 queries.