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Author Topic: Question on the Current Hierarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate  (Read 5311 times) Average Rating: 0
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sinjinsmythe
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« on: June 04, 2003, 02:09:39 AM »

Here is a link to the following site:http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/resources/hierarchs/constantinople/current.htm#bartholomew_patr

Do some of these hierarchs actually have a flock that they tend to? Huh
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2003, 06:53:14 AM »

Here is a link to the following site:http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/resources/hierarchs/constantinople/current.htm#bartholomew_patr

Do some of these hierarchs actually have a flock that they tend to? Huh

CHRIST IS RISEN!  S'praznidkom on the Leavetaking of Pascha!

AFAIK, Sinjin, most of these hierarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate shown head defunct dioceses that once had large Orthodox populations, but now they are purely titularies, i.e., *without* flocks of their own and act only as Assistant Bishops in some fashion to the Ecumenical Patriarch and members of the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

If some future "Great and Holy Synod" is convoked, the Ecumenical Patriarch can "stack the deck" in its favor by naming even more of these titular bishops without flocks as members of the Patriarchal Holy Synod of Constantinople and, therefore, voting members of such future "Great and Holy Synod."

Hypo-Ortho
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sinjinsmythe
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2003, 01:37:10 PM »

I am surprised that there is not a canon that states that a hierarch must have an actual flock to tend to.  



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If some future "Great and Holy Synod" is convoked, the Ecumenical Patriarch can "stack the deck" in its favor by naming even more of these titular bishops without flocks as members of the Patriarchal Holy Synod of Constantinople and, therefore, voting members of such future "Great and Holy Synod."
Given the current EP, I don't like that one bit.  If he did something like that, it would a disingenuous way to run a synod.
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Anastasios
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2003, 02:08:13 PM »

Hypo,

You are right about that, maybe since they might run out of Greeks, they will consecrate "Greek CATHOLICS" like me* instead lol  Grin

Seriously,  and as sinjin alluded to, it really wrecks eucharistic ecclesiology to have bishops without flocks.  If a bishop is consecrated to celebrate the eucharistic liturgy over a real eucharistic community, but there is none in sight, that is a travesty.

I am much more in favor of smaller bishoprics; if finances is an issue, then have seperate dioceses but leave the financial administration up to the Metropolitan of the region.

For instace, I think it would be really cool to make all the OCA Bishops Metropolitans, then consecrate an additional one to three bishops for dioceses to be created out of that area. And make the current Metropolitan a Patriarch.  Hey, St. Basil consecrated a bishop for 17 people once!

anastasios

*(Yes to anyone that does not know, I am *still* not officially Orthodox ugh.  I am waiting on my spiritual father's and dean of students's advice for my wife.)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2003, 02:56:55 PM by anastasios » Logged

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TomS
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2003, 02:32:01 PM »

I am surprised that there is not a canon that states that a hierarch must have an actual flock to tend to.  

Given the current EP, I don't like that one bit.  If he did something like that, it would a disingenuous way to run a synod.

Are you kidding me? The GOA in conjunction with the EP does that ALL the time. You should read the book about GOA Archbishop Spyridon "the Lonely Path of Integrity". That will really open your eyes about how the church really operates in captivity!   Sad

To continue to remain relevant, the EP needs to move to a FREE COUNTRY. Not one where the info coming in is diluted and the flock cannot see nor interact with him. I fear that he is too removed from all of us.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2003, 02:38:28 PM by TomS » Logged
sinjinsmythe
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2003, 02:43:45 PM »

A while ago in another thread, I believe someone suggested that the EP either move to Athens or move to the US.
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2003, 03:08:14 PM »

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A while ago in another thread, I believe someone suggested that the EP either move to Athens or move to the US.

Now that would complicate things a little bit with the OCA!  I am curious how even a move to Greece would work since Greece is Autocephalous from the EP.  Arn't there pockets of Northern Greece that are under the jurisdiction of the EP?  A move there would probably be less complicated jurisdiction wise.
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TomS
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2003, 04:22:43 PM »

Arn't there pockets of Northern Greece that are under the jurisdiction of the EP?  A move there would probably be less complicated jurisdiction wise.  

Cyprus.
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2003, 04:45:57 PM »

Arn't there pockets of Northern Greece that are under the jurisdiction of the EP?  A move there would probably be less complicated jurisdiction wise.  

Cyprus.

But IIRC Cyprus is under itself (The Church of Cyprus), so that wouldn't work either.
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TomS
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« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2003, 07:22:44 PM »

But IIRC Cyprus is under itself (The Church of Cyprus), so that wouldn't work either.

DOH!

So what happened -- did the other Orthodox Churches kinda make the decision a while ago that they would not be under a Patriarch that is in captivity?

Why did it end up that the Greek Orthodox in America ended up under him. Why didn't they end up under the Church of Greece?

Are these questions answered in "The Orthodox Church" book by Ware?
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« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2003, 07:52:39 PM »

You know Tom, that's a funny story. The reason that America is under the EP is this: Meletios was Archbishop of Athens and was kicked out.  He never resigned.  He then came to the USA, where he strengthened his control over the Greeks here and founded the GOARCH.  He then became EP.  Now, he never had resigned being Archbishop of Athens so he issued a tomos declaring that the GOARCH was thereby transferred from his jurisdiction as Arch. of Athens to his jurisdiction as EP, and then he resigned being Arch. of Athens.  He was later deposed from the EP and later became Patriarch of Alexandria, and also served as the head of the Church of Cyprus. A very controversial figure.

anastasios
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2003, 08:06:20 PM »

Wow. Thanks anastasios. That is a very strange story!


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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2003, 08:21:55 PM »

If you get kicked out/deposed from one local church why is somebody allowed to hop around to to Constantinople, Alexandria, and America?  Is this Meletios the same Meletios that is responsible for the calendar change?
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Anastasios
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2003, 08:34:45 PM »

Nektarios,

Yes, he was the same one that sponsored the Synod of 1922 which among other things voted to allow the Calendar Change.

anastasios
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Anastasios
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2003, 08:36:19 PM »

If you get kicked out/deposed from one local church why is somebody allowed to hop around to to Constantinople, Alexandria, and America?  Is this Meletios the same Meletios that is responsible for the calendar change?

He wasn't deposed; he was kicked out by one faction in the Greek dispute between the Prime Minister and the King (which is why he did not resign his position) and then he was kicked out of the EP by the Turks (in this case he did resign).  As for how he led Cyprus and Alexandria, I just don't know.

anastasios
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2003, 09:41:51 PM »

Anastasie,

Thanks for the information.  This thread (and it's sister thread at the cafe) makes me want to research the topic further.  Do have any not overly polemical recomendations?  

Nektarios
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2003, 03:36:53 AM »

anastasios-san,

     what's wrong with assistant bishop--why create metropolitans and all o' those new levels?  We GOAs have had that tried on us, and we are falling apart faster than anyone but the anglicans  . . . though admittedly, largelthy because the hierarchs are mostly foreigners who don't know how to operate in the USA, the immigrant generations are dying off, and two generations of the you have already been lost.
     but let's not have more and more complex layers. . . . juridical solutions are non-starters.  you started off right--with the Eucharist.  why switch over to juridicality?

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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2003, 10:54:41 AM »

I was reading on the Orthodox missions in Ghana and other African countries and read a little on Patriarch of Alexandria.

Question: Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria and all Africa a Greek? The same with the Patriarch of Jerusalem? OTOH, the Patriarch of Antioch is Arab, I believe.

Is there a tradition that governs?
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« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2003, 11:55:00 AM »

I was reading on the Orthodox missions in Ghana and other African countries and read a little on Patriarch of Alexandria.

Question: Why is the Patriarch of Alexandria and all Africa a Greek? The same with the Patriarch of Jerusalem? OTOH, the Patriarch of Antioch is Arab, I believe.

Is there a tradition that governs?

There are two Popes of Alexandria... the Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church, who is Egyptian, and the Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, who is Greek.  The reason for the two is that after the split in 451, the Greeks sent a Patriarch to replace St. Dioscorous who had been anathamatized by Chalcedon, but the people rejected him, so there were two Patriarches, and two parallel Churches, the original Church of Alexandria, and the one set up by the Greeks to replace it after the split, which had state approval.  The two have remained until today, the Egyptian one with about 10 million people, and the Greek one with about 300 000.

http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org/ (Greek/EO/Chalcedonian)
http://copticpope.org/ & http://copticchurch.com/ (Coptic/OO/non-Chalcedonian)
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Anastasios
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« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2003, 12:53:13 PM »

Fotina,

That is a hot topic.  Until 1950 something there were actually a lot of Greeks still living in Alexandria, while the Arab* population was mostly Coptic Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox versus Greek Eastern Orthodox.

Now the situation does seem to call for change.

Re: Jerusalem: I would read The Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre by St. Raphael Hawaweeny to find out why Arabs are not in charge of that Patriarchate.

In Christ,

anastasios

*Copts usually will argue that they are not Arabs, since they are Egyptians who survived the Arab conquest.  There has been relatively little mixing as well, since to mix means to go Muslim.  So strictly speaking, I would say Copts are not Arabs, yet they speak Arabic and in many cases observe Arab culture so in common parlance they are often included in this group, and many Copts don't seem to mind, yet you must ask a Copt himself, and not a Westerner like me :-)
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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2003, 04:47:24 PM »

Now the situation does seem to call for change.

Only to those that would call Coptic monothelites part of the Orthodox communion.

monothelites?  Wow, I've never even heard that one, does it mean the same thing of monophysite, or is it a different accusation?
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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2003, 05:12:28 PM »

Historically the Oriental Orthodox, including the Copts, were accused of being monophysites, not monothelites. Monophysitism functionally denied Jesus' humanity, reducing Him to one nature (physis), a divine one. Today, however, both Eastern Orthodox (nondogmatically) and Catholics (likewise) agree that the Oriental Orthodox are not monophysites.

Monothelitism was an even more obscure heresy that I believe taught Jesus had only one will. The only church I can think of that went along with that was the Maronite Church in Lebanon, and even they claim they never formally left the Chalcedonian church* but were cut off by circumstances such as the rise of Islam. So it seems the Maronites were, for a few centuries from around 700 to 1100, 'accidental Monothelites' or 'Monothelites by default'. AFAIK there are no Monothelite churches today. (Though there is a small Gnostic church from the Middle East - for real.)

*'Never left communion with Rome' is how they put it as all Maronites today are Catholic. The Crusaders basically 'discovered' them and the Maronites immediately entered/restored communion with the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2003, 06:02:47 PM »

Though there is a small Gnostic church from the Middle East - for real

Serge,

Are you referring to the Mandaeans?

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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2003, 09:13:48 PM »

Quote
Are you referring to the Mandaeans?

Not knowingly - I never heard the term before. What I do know anecdotally is once in California there were some New Age types (In California? Nooooo!) who thought it'd be cool to be Gnostic - guess they thought it meant all the pot and sex they wanted while being 'spiritual'. Well, they somehow tracked down the real Gnostic Church, which I think was somewhere in Iraq, and invited the patriarch to the US. Well, the Gnostic patriarch laid down the law - everything from liturgics (a moat around the church) to the strict fasting laws (including times to abstain from sex - a lot like EOxy). The American New Agers left and so now some Middle Eastern people in California have their small but thriving Ecclesia Gnostica from home.
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