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Author Topic: Eastern Orthodox recognition of Oriental Orthodox sacraments?  (Read 2685 times) Average Rating: 0
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Trevor
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« on: August 20, 2007, 11:20:21 PM »

This topic is split off from the following thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12549.0.html



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Hey, that's supposed to be us OO's whom the EO's are calling the "unbaptized heretics, descended from apostates."
I'm not sure that's really accurate. The fact that many have been received into EO jurisdictions via a profession of faith seems to in some way recognize the validity of OO sacraments as long as their theology is correct.

Will some EO weigh in on this one? I'm relatively unversed in the particulars of the EO opinion of the OO churches.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 01:49:31 AM by Salpy » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2007, 11:32:40 PM »

Will some EO weigh in on this one? I'm relatively unversed in the particulars of the EO opinion of the OO churches.
At the risk of oversimplifying this, let me offer this nutshell definition:

Some EO believe that OO Christology is fundamentally consistent with the Christology of the Council of Chalcedon (451), even though OO reject this council for largely other-than-dogmatic reasons.  Other EO of a much more traditionalist bent still see the OO as monophysite (Eutychian) heretics.

As a counterbalance, some OO believe that EO Christology is fundamentally consistent with the Christology of the Council of Ephesus (449), even though the EO have disparagingly called this council the "Robber Synod".  Other OO of a much more traditionalist bent still see the EO as diaphysite (quasi-Nestorian) heretics.

I could explain this in much greater detail, but we already have whole threads devoted to this subject in both the public and private EO/OO boards.  Rather than take the time to rehash this, I'll just kindly encourage you to search for these threads; they should be pretty easy to find.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 11:38:17 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2007, 11:33:39 PM »

I'm not sure that's really accurate. The fact that many have been received into EO jurisdictions via a profession of faith seems to in some way recognize the validity of OO sacraments as long as their theology is correct.

Not necessarily. EO hardliners avoid that uncomfortable conclusion through the economia escape hatch.  Smiley
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 11:35:23 PM by lubeltri » Logged
Salpy
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2007, 11:43:14 PM »

Hey, that's supposed to be us OO's whom the EO's are calling the "unbaptized heretics, descended from apostates." 

I was kidding.  I suppose I should have made that more clear.  The point of the post really was to get us back on topic.
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2007, 11:55:25 PM »

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I could explain this in much greater detail, but we already have whole threads devoted to this subject in both the public and private EO/OO boards.  Rather than take the time to rehash this, I'll just kindly encourage you to search for these threads; they should be pretty easy to find.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I think I have at least a basic grasp on the theological belief side of things, and I was more wondering about the question of the validity of sacraments, Apostolic Succession, etc. Is the acceptance of OO on profession of faith merely as matter of economia, as our Catholic friend suggested, or is there a recognition of greater legitimacy than is extended to, say, Protestants?
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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2007, 07:09:10 AM »

Correct me if I am wrong please but are not the Syrian Orthodox Church (OO) and the Antiochian Orthodox Church (EO) in intercommunion now?

Protestants have no legitimacy any more than the heretics of the Apostle's time or any others through the ages.
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2007, 12:52:25 PM »

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Correct me if I am wrong please but are not the Syrian Orthodox Church (OO) and the Antiochian Orthodox Church (EO) in intercommunion now?

On a limited basis, I believe, but not in full communion until there is full unity.  Certainly there are warm relations between our churches, and both Patriarch Ignatius IV and Mor Ignatius Zakka are on friendly terms.   

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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2007, 12:54:58 PM »

On a limited basis, I believe, but not in full communion until there is full unity.  Certainly there are warm relations between our churches, and both Patriarch Ignatius IV and Mor Ignatius Zakka are on friendly terms.   

I'm not fully informed of the situation, but ISTM from the limited info I do have that they're not "in communion" as their bishops are not commemorating one another, but they are insofar as they're allowing the faithful to commune in one another's churches for the time being, in limited circumstances.

If others have more credible (or correct) information, please share!
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2007, 02:51:02 PM »

My priest at my Antiochian parish informed me that in the event that full communion is reached in the near future, there will be a joint patriarchate in Damascus between the two friends until one dies. At which point, the one still living would take over. That's great and all, but what a headache for the staffs of both sees... wonder what would happen to the local episcopal jurisdictions...
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 02:52:20 PM by samkim » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2007, 10:19:33 PM »

Let's get a few things straight. Rightly or wrongly (and I feel wrongly) the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and all the East (aka Antiochian Orthodox) and the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch are  NOT IN COMMUNION. The statements by the Antiochians in 1991 (and to a lesser extent 1997) where an opinon of the Antiochians.  The Greeks (aka Constantinople and Mt. Athos) put a "kibosh" on this.

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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2007, 06:20:29 AM »

Just to set the record straight, the Copts too sought clarification from the Syrians and since then the OO have decided to together move ahead in negotiations and dialogue.

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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2007, 04:59:59 PM »

Dear Friends,

Not change the subject, but I'm trying to get a feel for the size of the two Churches of Antioch, Byzantine and Oriental Orthodox.  Thanks for any help you can give with this.

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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2007, 12:43:52 AM »

Dear Friends,

Not change the subject, but I'm trying to get a feel for the size of the two Churches of Antioch, Byzantine and Oriental Orthodox.  Thanks for any help you can give with this.

Sdn. Lazarus

The Syriac Church numbers about 600,000 in Syria and the surrounding area.  The EO number over a million in the same area.  Both however have large missions by emmigration and conversions overseas.

The EO, as Arabs are somewhat better positioned (Syriac is looked with suspicion as a divisive by some government types because it's not Arabic).  Sati al-Husry, an architect of pan-Arabism and a Muslim, called the Arab patriarch of Antioch "the first victory of Arabism."  The Syriacs are on the whole highly educated but are congregated in some isolated areas (which is how they survived).

As for combining the two communities, the Patriarchate of Alexandria has done that with her Greeks and Arabs: DL in all Churches in both languages, an Arab bishop (maybe more now), etc. Something similar would happen in Syria after reunion.  In Egypt there would have to be further reorganization, as the Copts will swamp us: they outnumber us by more than 20 to 1 .  A primate in the Middle East told me that was what was holding up the union: no one wanted to die, and the Copts swamping us, and the Arabs swamping the Syriac was a real (and founded) fear.  Something, though, can be worked out on the model in Alexandria.

Btw when I was in Malula, one of the few areas where they still speak Aramaic, the churches there which submitted to Rome had their services in Arabic, which struck me as odd, as usually the Eastern churches lag behind in language change, and there it was in the forefront.  Although the people spoke our Lord's language.  I would have loved to have seen the primiere of "The Passion of the Christ" there.

Yes.  The monks of Athos nay sayed the agreements, but as they have no Copts, Syriacs, etc. to deal with, so the Patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria went on.

E.g.
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Pastoral_Agreement_between_the_Coptic_Orthodox_and_Greek_Orthodox_Patriarchates_of_Alexandria_%282001%29

There is de facto intercommunion in Syria and Egypt, the former in particular.  I can personally attest to that in the 90's.  I don't think things have moved in the opposite direction.

The fact that both Antioch and Alexandria recognize Syriac and Coptic marriages, something we don't do for any other church, is a partial step to full communion, and a necessary (as the Pastoral Agreement shows) one.
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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2007, 09:26:49 AM »

I'm not fully informed of the situation, but ISTM from the limited info I do have that they're not "in communion" as their bishops are not commemorating one another, but they are insofar as they're allowing the faithful to commune in one another's churches for the time being, in limited circumstances.

If others have more credible (or correct) information, please share!

Alright. That's an interesting albeit unusual situation. Thank you Cool
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