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Author Topic: Homosexuality -a perverted manifestation of sexuality  (Read 12320 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pravoslavije-gal
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« on: June 21, 2007, 06:35:15 AM »

 The Orthodox Church proceeds from the invariable conviction that the divinely established marital union of man and woman cannot be compared to the perverted manifestations of sexuality. She believes homosexuality to be a sinful distortion of human nature, which is overcome by spiritual effort leading to the healing and personal growth of the individual. Homosexual desires, just as other passions torturing fallen man, are healed by the Sacraments, prayer, fasting, repentance, reading of Holy Scriptures and patristic writings, as well as Christian fellowship with believers who are ready to give spiritual support.

Holy Scriptures and the teaching of the Church unequivocally deplore homosexual relations, seeing in them a vicious distortion of God-created human nature.

“If a man lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination” (Lev. 20:13). The Bible relates the story about the heavy punishment to which God subjected the people of Sodom (Gen. 19:1-19) precisely for the sin of sodomy. St. Paul, describing the moral condition of the Gentiles, names homosexual relations among the most “vile affections” and “fornications,” defiling the human body: “Their women did change natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise -the men, leaving the natural use of women, burned in their lust for one another; men with men working that which is shameful, and receiving for themselves the recompense of their effort that was due’(Rom. 1:26-27). “Be not deceived neither homosexuals, nor sodomites... shall inherit the kingdom of God,” wrote the Apostle to the people of corrupted Corinth (I Cor. 6:9-10). The patristic tradition equally clearly and definitely denounce any manifestation of homosexuality. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, the works of Ss. Basil the Great, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa and Blessed Augustine and the Canon of St. John the Faster-all express the unchangeable teaching of the Church that homosexual relations are sinful and should be condemned. People involved in them do not have the right to be members of the clergy (Gregory the Great, Canon 7, Gregory of Nyssa, Canon 4; John the Faster, Canon 30). Addressing those who stained themselves with the sin of sodomy, St. Maxim the Greek made this appeal: “Look at yourselves, damned ones, what a foul pleasure you indulge in! Try to give up as soon as possible this most nasty and stinking pleasure of yours, to hate it, and to denounce eternally as enemies of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and corrupters of His teaching, those who argue that it is innocent. Cleanse yourselves oft his blight by repentance, ardent tears, alms-giving as much as you can and pure prayer... Hate this unrighteousness with all your heart, so that you may not be sons of damnation and eternal death.”

http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/currentissues/articles/churchAndSoci
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Make no mistake sisters and brothers homosexuality is an abomination to our lord
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The apostle Paul listed homosexuals among "the unrighteous" who would not inherit the kingdom of God <1 Cor. 6:9>, and declared that God's wrath stands against such behavior, whether practiced by men or women <Rom. 1:26-27>.
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2007, 10:04:50 AM »

Quick question ... How is this an Orthodox-Catholic Discussion issue?  Are you saying or implying that the Roman Catholic Church views homosexuality as anything other than gravely disordered and homosexual activity as anything other than sinful?
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2007, 07:09:59 PM »

Quote
The Orthodox Church proceeds from the invariable conviction that the divinely established marital union of man and woman cannot be compared to the perverted manifestations of sexuality. She believes homosexuality to be a sinful distortion of human nature, which is overcome by spiritual effort leading to the healing and personal growth of the individual. Homosexual desires, just as other passions torturing fallen man, are healed by the Sacraments, prayer, fasting, repentance, reading of Holy Scriptures and patristic writings, as well as Christian fellowship with believers who are ready to give spiritual support.

Very true. I'd like to see more stuff like this posted here...  let's really get into the meat of what ancient Christianity taught Grin
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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2007, 07:28:50 PM »

Quick question ... How is this an Orthodox-Catholic Discussion issue?  Are you saying or implying that the Roman Catholic Church views homosexuality as anything other than gravely disordered and homosexual activity as anything other than sinful?

Perhaps because no one other than the pope could get away with with such pontificating. But I really have to say, the 'argument' posted above would make any bible-thumping fundamentalist evangelical protestant proud...fortunately the Orthodox Church isn't so shallow.

Very true. I'd like to see more stuff like this posted here...  let's really get into the meat of what ancient Christianity taught Grin

Hmmm, and I wonder why it might just maybe be in your interest to distort the Christian Religion Wink
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2007, 07:29:45 PM »

Quick question ... How is this an Orthodox-Catholic Discussion issue?  Are you saying or implying that the Roman Catholic Church views homosexuality as anything other than gravely disordered and homosexual activity as anything other than sinful?

The thread is now in the Faith Issues section - thank you for raising the question!
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2007, 07:35:36 PM »

For the record, I'm on our newbie' side here.

I'm also awaiting the teaching of the Great Ancient Atheists, they being as free to make up morals and doctrine as the homosexual activists are.
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2007, 07:38:12 PM »

GIC

Quote
Hmmm, and I wonder why it might just maybe be in your interest to distort the Christian Religion

Actually, this is a perfect example of why I don't have to distort Christianity: I think ancient Christianity does a good job at refuting itself when considered in a modern framework. Wink  I think this type of thinking is dangerous, in that it psychologically harms millions of people. The moderates provide a shield for Christianity, because they cave when it comes to controversial issues. But zealous people like Pravoslavije-gal, he'll give it to ya straight. You can try to do damage-control all you want, but on the internet you're fighting a losing battle.
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2007, 08:22:55 PM »

Actually, this is a perfect example of why I don't have to distort Christianity: I think ancient Christianity does a good job at refuting itself when considered in a modern framework. Wink  I think this type of thinking is dangerous, in that it psychologically harms millions of people. The moderates provide a shield for Christianity, because they cave when it comes to controversial issues. But zealous people like Pravoslavije-gal, he'll give it to ya straight. You can try to do damage-control all you want, but on the internet you're fighting a losing battle.

If the battle was easy it wouldn't be worth fighting Wink Plus, I think we moderates do a pretty good job of distancing ourselves and our religion from the more extreme elements; heck, we're not even in communion with (read: not even the same Church as) the most reactionary orthodox groups.

We make people feel warm and fuzzy inside, Atheism does not...that's an unequaled advantage when dealing with your typical person.
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 08:28:04 PM »

3 out of 4 posts are condemning homosexuality. You seem a little obsessed with pointing out the sins of others.
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 08:42:35 PM »

Pravoslavije-gal,
I suggest you read the gospels, especially...
John 8:
 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2007, 09:22:43 PM »

Pravoslavije-gal,
I suggest you read the gospels, especially...
John 8:
"Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

You are interpreting Scriptures to your peril.  That verse is irrelevant, for the Church does not throw stones at people.  She is asking the homosexuals to REPENT.

Cleanse yourselves oft his blight by repentance, ardent tears, alms-giving as much as you can and pure prayer... Hate this unrighteousness with all your heart, so that you may not be sons of damnation and eternal death.
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2007, 09:26:46 PM »

You are interpreting Scriptures to your peril.  That verse is irrelevant, for the Church does not throw stones at people.  She is asking the homosexuals to REPENT.

Cleanse yourselves oft his blight by repentance, ardent tears, alms-giving as much as you can and pure prayer... Hate this unrighteousness with all your heart, so that you may not be sons of damnation and eternal death.

I suggest that you read all of P-gals posts.  My comment was to her, not to the church.
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2007, 09:30:52 PM »

I suggest that you read all of P-gals posts.  My comment was to her, not to the church.

I've read her post, and nothing in it is contrary to what the Church teaches.
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2007, 09:48:12 PM »

I've known several people who are Homosexual who are active in their churches, help others, contribute to charity, etc.  That is outside of Orthodoxy.  Inside of Orthodoxy, in two of the three parishes I've spent any time around, there have been people who were more or less known to be Homosexual.  These are people who attend every week, do a lot of work in the parish and so on.
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2007, 10:25:15 PM »

Pravoslavije-gal,
I suggest you read the gospels, especially...
John 8:
 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4 they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5 Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" 6 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 9 But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again."

I suggest that you read all of P-gals posts.  My comment was to her, not to the church.

Actually, I don't see Pravoslavije-gal condemning any homosexual person in her OP or in any other of her posts, which makes your quote from the Gospels irrelevant.  The OP appears instead to focus all of her attention on condemning homosexual behavior and calling its practitioners to repent.  Is not the call to repent the very heart of the Gospel of Christ?  Did not St. John the Forerunner call out King Herod on his sexual immorality?
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2007, 10:29:39 PM »

But I really have to say, the 'argument' posted above would make any bible-thumping fundamentalist evangelical protestant proud...fortunately the Orthodox Church isn't so shallow.

Hmmm, and I wonder why it might just maybe be in your interest to distort the Christian Religion Wink
What, perchance, would you say the Church teaches on this matter?
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2007, 12:59:39 AM »

What, perchance, would you say the Church teaches on this matter?

'Love thy neighbour as thyself.'

'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.'

'And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.'
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2007, 01:48:19 AM »

Actually, I don't see Pravoslavije-gal condemning any homosexual person in her OP or in any other of her posts, which makes your quote from the Gospels irrelevant.  The OP appears instead to focus all of her attention on condemning homosexual behavior and calling its practitioners to repent.  Is not the call to repent the very heart of the Gospel of Christ?  Did not St. John the Forerunner call out King Herod on his sexual immorality?

I remember one Orthodox priest explaining to us that homosexuality was a form of idolatry. To be a homosexual is not of itself a sin, it is morally neutural (like having either brown or blue eyes)...it is rather what a person does with this ingredient in their 'personality package' that makes it either good or bad. It is 'disordered' and 'gravely sinful' to use this orientation to live in a sexual relationship because (as St. Paul says so well) it becomes a kind of idolatry because the homosexual person 'makes an image of out of his/her own kind' and is attracted to him/herself in a form. If however a person with homosexual (or more properly homoerotic) tendencies lives a chaste life of service to family (takes care of an aged mother or father) or some other form of chaste service to community, then he/she can indeed rise to great selflessness and even holiness. In other words, the basic orientation tends to usually force one to look at self or an image of self as THE 'idealized love/infatuation' object. For this reason (as I understand it) St. Paul likens homosexuality to idol worship...because it idealizes the same sex and makes it the object of love. God has rather created man to love his opposite and woman to love hers...so that the two are complimented and completed rather than love themselves alone. When we love our compliment and are completed---that love is 'open' to new life (children) and 'gives birth' to them in complete selflessness and brings LIFE into the world. Parents therefore become co-creators with God.
 
Romans 1:17-28 (English Standard Version)

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
   
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2007, 01:54:32 AM »

'Love thy neighbour as thyself.'

'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.'

'And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.'
"Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ, from Whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

"Now this I affirm and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds;..."
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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2007, 02:20:18 AM »

This post is most certainly NOT the truth spoken in love! It is the truth, yes, but it is not spoken with love, it is spoken with much judgment and an air of condemnation.  This will not bring anyone to repentance, if anything, it is alienating.  You generally don't help people repent by telling them how disgusting they are. 

There is absolutely no reason for this to have been posted. I don't think there is any confusion about what the Church teaches. Heterosexual self-righteousness alienates gays both in and out of the Church, and those who hate gays will be judged for it. 
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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2007, 05:18:07 AM »

From the GOAA website:

"...fornication, adultery, abortion, homosexuality and any form of abusive sexual behavior are considered immoral and inappropriate forms of behavior in and of themselves, and also because they attack the institution of marriage and the family.

The position of the Orthodox Church toward homosexuality has been expressed by synodicals, canons and patristic pronouncements beginning with the very first centuries of Orthodox ecclesiastical life. Thus, the Orthodox Church condemns unreservedly all expressions of personal sexual experience which prove contrary to the definite and unalterable function ascribed to sex by God's ordinance and expressed in man's experience as a law of nature. The Orthodox Church believes that homosexuality should be treated by religion as a sinful failure. In both cases, correction is called for. Homosexuals should be accorded the confidential medical and psychiatric facilities by which they can be helped to restore themselves to a self-respecting sexual identity that belongs to them by God's ordinance. In full confidentiality the Orthodox Church cares and provides pastorally for homosexuals in the belief that no sinner who has failed himself and God should be allowed to deteriorate morally and spiritually."
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2007, 05:56:33 AM »

'Love thy neighbour as thyself.'

'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.'

'And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.'

It is exactly because of love that orthodoxy wants people to leave homosexuality and become one with god.

We dont want people to not enter the kingdom of god as saint paul tells us Homosexuals WILL NOT ENTER
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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2007, 06:34:44 AM »

This will not bring anyone to repentance.....There is absolutely no reason for this to have been posted. I don't think there is any confusion about what the Church teaches. Heterosexual self-righteousness alienates gays both in and out of the Church, and those who hate gays will be judged for it.

Sad, but true. And I have seen this for myself, which is why I loathe these threads and in the past have tried to steer them in gentler directions, but now I just give up. It seems that every couple of months, someone with a bee in their bonnet about homosexuality will post something to say what an evil, disgusting sin it is.... blah, blah, blah... And every time I just cringe and pray that no practicing homosexual who might be seeking a way out of their lifestyle reads it and thinks that the Orthodox Church is as obsessed with condemning homosexuality as Westboro Baptist Church.
We have a completely different view of sin, one which involves the passions which require taming and brideling, rather than the unhealthy approach of trying to pretend they don't exist.
The homosexuals I know who have found a way out, found it in Orthodoxy precisely because the Orthodox Church has this view of sin being an illness requiring treatement, and that there is no such thing as an incurable illness in the Orthodox Church. But in order to do this, the Orthodox Church must be able to make the distinction between the passions and actual sin, but this distinction is not permitted to come through if every couple of months, someone starts a thread saying something like "homosexuality is a perverted manifestation of sexuality" without qualifying this with what the Church holds about the passions in general which are ALL "perverted manifestations" of created Human Nature, and none of them are more "perverted" than any other one.
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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2007, 06:40:25 AM »

On the one hand, Christ gave us a new standard of moral behavior without abrogating the law of what is right and wrong.  So, for example, He did not say to the woman who was going to be stoned to death for adultery that adultery is ok; He simply said "Go and sin no more."

On the other hand, some standards of right and wrong have changed even in the Orthodox Church.  For example, the Church Fathers seem to have been universally against artificial birth control (while distinguishing between that and abortion-causing drugs).  Now, however, the Orthodox Church (to the best of my knowledge) allows birth control in certain circumstances.  For another example, Jesus made his position on divorce very clear:  no divorce, except (perhaps) for sexual immorality, and marriage to another after divorce is to be regarded as adultery.  Yet, the Orthodox Church allows divorce and remarriage.

So, here are my questions.  I'm not trying to be belligerent; I genuinely want to know:

(1)  What is the standard for changing moral teachings in the Orthodox Church ?  (economia?)

(2)  Why not allow homosexuality ?


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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2007, 06:43:43 AM »

P.S.  Why is it that some people get so upset over homosexuality (which affects a small number of people), but heterosexual sins (which affect the vast majority of people) receive far less attention, passion, and condemnation?
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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2007, 06:58:17 AM »

Why not allow homosexuality ?
Do you mean the passion of same gender attraction, or the sin of homosexual acts?
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« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2007, 07:34:48 AM »

Do you mean the passion of same gender attraction, or the sin of homosexual acts?

Actually, my question is trying to get to the basis of jurisprudence in Orthodox Church:  how it classifies certain actions to be sinful, how it changes its position, and why. 

I think I understand the official teaching on homosexuality.  Let me recite my understanding of it, and you can correct me if I'm wrong.  According to the official teaching, sexual activity is only for a man and a woman who are married to each other.  Any other sexual activity is sinful.  That is because God created sex as a way to make babies and to make love.  Moreover, according to this view, homosexual sex is an even greater sin than heterosexual sins  because it substitutes two people of the same gender for two people of the opposite gender.  Therefore, according to this view, homosexual sex should be regarded as both sinful and perverted.  Furthermore according to this view, same sex attraction should be regarded as a kind of deformity or defect.  However, according to this view, same sex attraction can be overcome (and, perhaps "cured"), by grace and asceticism and the sacraments.  That is my understanding of the official view.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That said, the Orthodox Church has held certain positions on moral issues in the past which it has since changed.  In my previous post I cited artificial birth control and divorce as two examples.  And, I'm curious why the Orthodox Church doesn't change its position on homosexuality too.

Now, here are my questions again (hopefully clarified):

(1)  What is the basis of Orthodox jurisprudence? 

(2)  How does the Orthodox Church classify certain actions to be sinful ?

(3)  How does it change its position on the sinfulness of certain actions ?

(4)  Why ?

(5)  Why not change its position on homosexuality ?


Finally, I'm not trying to cause offense, and I apologize if I do.  I am not trying to tell the Orthodox Church how to behave.  As a prospective convert, I am trying to understand the Orthodox Church.

I have to log off after I post this and get on with the day, but I look forward to any responses, and I thank you in advance. 

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« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2007, 09:00:39 AM »

My position on homosexuality is pretty similar to Tamara's priest's. Of course by itself is not a sin, since millions and millions of people worldwide are created by God with this sexual orientation (and as we very well know, everything created by Him is "very good" and never sinful). What people do with their homosexuality, and, broader, what people do with their sexuality in general, is a different story altogether. If a person is a Christian, this person has to strive for sexual purity, that is, either to be completely chaste (regardless of sexual orientation), or to have sex exclusively within marriage (which the Church understands exclusively as a union between one man and one woman).

I personally have several very good friends (one of them a childhood friend, almost a brother), who are homosexuals. Believing what I believe, I would certainly not tell them that they have a "right" to exercise their homosexuality as they please. No matter how much I love them and care for them, I would not do unto them what I do not want to be done unto me (i.e. giving me a message that I am "entitled" to exercising my sexuality in a wild, wanton, pagan, unrestrained, un-Christian way).
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« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2007, 10:23:33 AM »

  However, according to this view, same sex attraction can be overcome (and, perhaps "cured"), by grace and asceticism and the sacraments. 
Wrong.
The passions are not "eliminated", nor can they be, nor should they be. In the case of Man, "Dispassionate" does not mean "Passionless", it means that we are in control of our passions and not the other way around. Anyone who thinks that they have removed their passions is in spiritual delusion. And as St. Evagrius Ponticus says: "Without temptation, no one would be saved"
Orthodoxy speaks a different language and has a different understanding of "sin" to most non-Orthodox Christian groups. A passion is not a sin in Orthodoxy, but if unbridled, will certainly lead to sin. This difference in understanding is the problem I'm talking about in this post.
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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2007, 10:48:52 AM »

My position on homosexuality is pretty similar to Tamara's priest's. Of course by itself is not a sin, since millions and millions of people worldwide are created by God with this sexual orientation (and as we very well know, everything created by Him is "very good" and never sinful).
I have to disagree. God doesn't create anyone gay. One becomes gay from indulging in the act of homosexuality, brought on by there passions. If they believe that they are born gay. Their demon has deceived them into believing they can do nothing to overcome there sinful condition. They will continue to be in hell. They may even still feel the burning. All we can do is pray that god have mercy on there souls and give them strength to overcome. The same goes for other sinful life styles. As Orthodox Christians we should never condem anyone. Just pray for there repentance and change of life style. I'm not gay. But I can somehow see how difficult it is for someone who is and is struggling to overcome. I can't see how god can comdem someone working out there salvation through abstanance. I can see someone giving up the struggle and allowing the demons full control. It must be a very difficult battle indeed. Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2007, 10:55:37 AM »

"Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into Him who is the head, into Christ, from Whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

"Now this I affirm and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds;..."

Condemnation is neither truth nor love, it is nothing but pride, vainglory, and prelest. And it is those latter, neither truth nor love, that has here been presented.

That is why I say, with our Lord, to Pravoslavije-gal:

'Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'

I dont know what so troubles her soul that she feels the need to seek comfort in her condemnation of others, but that is what really needs to be addressed.
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« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2007, 10:56:32 AM »

I have to disagree. God doesn't create anyone gay. One becomes gay from indulging in the act of homosexuality, brought on by there passions. If they believe that they are born gay. Their demon has deceived them into believing they can do nothing to overcome there sinful condition.

So, are all the psychology books in Greece over 70 years old?
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« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2007, 11:10:06 AM »

So, are all the psychology books in Greece over 70 years old?
No they aren't. I just don't put my trust into modern psychology along with some modern science witch comes up short with proving that there is a gay gene in our DNA. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2007, 11:12:38 AM »

No they aren't. I just don't put my trust into modern psychology along with some modern science witch comes up short with proving that there is a gay gene in our DNA. Roll Eyes

From one Demetrios G. to another Demetrios G., good answer. I'd say 'modern PC science'.  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2007, 11:35:17 AM »

So, are all the psychology books in Greece over 70 years old?

We must have had different psychology books then.  For all the psychology classes I have taken and studied on my own, most professors in the end admit that although there may be some genetic reasons to pre-dispose one to homosexuality, it would be mostly minor and most of the homosexual tendencies are influenced not by a 'gay gene,' but by the enviroment one grows up in and specifically the interaction with one's parenting figures.  This seems to give much greater evidence of a root.
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« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2007, 11:42:35 AM »

We must have had different psychology books then.  For all the psychology classes I have taken and studied on my own, most professors in the end admit that although there may be some genetic reasons to pre-dispose one to homosexuality, it would be mostly minor and most of the homosexual tendencies are influenced not by a 'gay gene,' but by the enviroment one grows up in and specifically the interaction with one's parenting figures.  This seems to give much greater evidence of a root.

Actually, most research I've seen suggest it is phenotypical; neither developed from genetics nor from early childhood interactions. Though there is some evidence to suggest that certain women are more genetically predisposed to have homosexual children (but it's not genetic, because the father would not have an influence). The best and most accepted theories are that sexual orientation is developed during the fetus' gestation period.
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« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2007, 11:54:07 AM »

Actually, most research I've seen suggest it is phenotypical; neither developed from genetics nor from early childhood interactions. Though there is some evidence to suggest that certain women are more genetically predisposed to have homosexual children (but it's not genetic, because the father would not have an influence). The best and most accepted theories are that sexual orientation is developed during the fetus' gestation period.

Your views don't surprize me.Your always trying to explain spirtual disease as a scientific phenomena.
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« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2007, 12:40:59 PM »

Your views don't surprize me.Your always trying to explain spirtual disease as a scientific phenomena.

Well it shouldn't surprise you that I believe we live in a rational world and that conditions in this rational world have rational explinations...how could a rational human being living in the 21st century believe otherwise?
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« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2007, 01:01:28 PM »

Demetrios G., I am not arguing that to be considered homosexual, a person must somehow become involved in homosexual activity (in one's deeds or at least in one's thoughts, dreads, etc.) So, in this regard, you are right, God does not create gays - it's one's choice. I was only saying that many people are "wired" with homosexual "inclinations," so to say. It's not a secret that very many kids experience sexual arousal when they play with their playmates of the same sex, etc. In some people, these inclinations are stronger than in others. And maybe it is so for a reason - if these people remain stimulated with objects of their own sex and not by individuals of the opposite sex, then these people probably should seek chastity, monasticism.
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« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2007, 01:18:54 PM »

The passions are not "eliminated", nor can they be, nor should they be.

Thank you for your response, Ozgeorge. 

However, I did not write "eliminated" in my post.  I wrote "overcome" and "cured."  There is a difference. 

Neverthless, I apologize for not being more specific.   I intended (and I failed to communicate) what you said very well in both of your posts:  that the passions are to be controlled and divinized and, as such, are gateways to our divinization.

Now:  how is it that the Church can declare something immoral at one point in time (such as divorce or birth control) and then allow it at a later time?  I gather that this involves the concept "economia" (i.e., discretion or judgement).  Perhaps I am wrong.  But if I am right, how exactly does this happen?  And, why can't it happen for homosexuals, both in their same sex attraction and in their conduct?

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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2007, 02:13:18 PM »

Now:  how is it that the Church can declare something immoral at one point in time (such as divorce or birth control) and then allow it at a later time?  I gather that this involves the concept "economia" (i.e., discretion or judgement).  Perhaps I am wrong.  But if I am right, how exactly does this happen?  And, why can't it happen for homosexuals, both in their same sex attraction and in their conduct?

Economia is not the same as declaring that something is no longer immoral.  Rather, it is the Church recognizing that while the accommodated action is not the ideal to which we are called, it is better than the alternative.  I'm not aware of any instance where the Church has declared something immoral and then said, "Ha, just kidding.  It's okay now."  Economia isn't allowed for its own sake, but as a method of pastoral care.
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« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2007, 02:37:10 PM »

Economia is not the same as declaring that something is no longer immoral.  Rather, it is the Church recognizing that while the accommodated action is not the ideal to which we are called, it is better than the alternative.  I'm not aware of any instance where the Church has declared something immoral and then said, "Ha, just kidding.  It's okay now."  Economia isn't allowed for its own sake, but as a method of pastoral care. 

Well, and for some Economy is the easy way out. 

Now:  how is it that the Church can declare something immoral at one point in time (such as divorce or birth control) and then allow it at a later time?  I gather that this involves the concept "economia" (i.e., discretion or judgement).  Perhaps I am wrong.  But if I am right, how exactly does this happen?

Theoretically, Economy (or Economia) has a few basic underlying principles: (a) it is applied by those who have canonical authority (it doesn't make sense that one who would not have the authority to "bind" someone with "penance" would yet have the authority to apply Economy); (b) it is applied to individual cases, with the intent of aiding the individual in their reconciliation to the Lord and the Church; (c) it is not just leniency, but rather any deviation from the exactness of the canons (akrevia) - so Economy covers both leniency and added punishment; and (d) it is not precedent setting (a principle growing out of (b)) - just because someone else had Economy of leniency applied to their case for the exact same act doesn't mean that you should get Economy, or even Economy to the same degree.

Since point (a) leads directly into your question "how does this happen," I suppose the proper way that Economy is applied is thus:

Person X is in front of their Spiritual Father and confesses to sin Y (different from Cos ZY in all subsets - sorry, bad math joke).  The Spiritual Father applies Economy when he decides to make the penance anything more or less than what the canons prescribe.
Person Z is brought before Spiritual Court for sin a.  The Spiritual Court (or the Bishop) applies Economy when they/he decides to make the penance anything more or less than what the canons prescribe.
Heretic L stands before a synod (ecumenical, local, patriarchal, imaginary.... oops, forget the last one).  The Synod applies Economy when yada, yada, yada.

Essentially, these are the only 3 bodies which can bind penances (Bishop, Spiritual Father, Synod), and they are the only ones empowered to interpret the canons and apply them with pastoral discretion.

And, why can't it happen for homosexuals, both in their same sex attraction and in their conduct? 

I believe Economy is used with homosexuals (for both sins of thought and of action) all the time, though maybe not with the same frequency (read: percentage of population) as heterosexuals confessing premarital sex or lustful thoughts.  I think this is where we get into trouble: we let lots of the premarital sex and lust and masturbation slide by with little if any correction (because they're "normal"), but we throw away the key for sodomy / homosexual sex (which is masturbation anyway) because it "isn't normal."

I'm not arguing that lust, masturbation, and premarital sex isn't bad - but let's treat it equally, whether its hetero- or homo-sexual.
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« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2007, 03:04:20 PM »



I'm not arguing that lust, masturbation, and premarital sex isn't bad - but let's treat it equally, whether its hetero- or homo-sexual.

Amen, brother Cleveland!
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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2007, 05:07:24 PM »

Amen, brother Cleveland!

Cleveland makes an exellent point.  Again, the key is tendency for falls or slippage and open sinning.  I don't know many conservative Priests that would commune people who OPENLY live together before marriage, or who OPENLY live in adultery any more than they would commune an OPEN homosexual.  In reality, a person who struggles with his / her sin is different than a person who refuses to recognize his / her sinful action as sin.  I don't see a person who has homosexual tendencies but keeps them in check any different than I see a married heterosexual person who fights the tendency to lust after other women.  One may be more "natural" based on the majority of the population, but both are equal struggles.
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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2007, 05:23:45 PM »

Well it shouldn't surprise you that I believe we live in a rational world and that conditions in this rational world have rational explinations...how could a rational human being living in the 21st century believe otherwise?

Can you rationally expain how Christ was raised from the dead.  Wouldn't you say than, that rationalization has it's limits no matter what century we live in.
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