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Author Topic: Oriental Orthodox - Armenian liturgy  (Read 6613 times) Average Rating: 0
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marlo
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« on: January 16, 2007, 12:37:12 PM »

hi there

i would like to know why the Oriental orthodox does not have a problem if the other churches like the Armenian uses the unleavened bread for the Eucharist. this issue is one of the big problems in the EO-Catholic dialog, and i would like to know why this is not an issue on the Oriental orthodox. Also why is the Armenian Nicene Creed different from the rest of the Oriental orthodox creed and it also does not poses a communion problem with the oriental orthodox, any information is greatly appreciated

thanks
marlo


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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2007, 07:31:48 PM »

hi there

i would like to know why the Oriental orthodox does not have a problem if the other churches like the Armenian uses the unleavened bread for the Eucharist. this issue is one of the big problems in the EO-Catholic dialog, and i would like to know why this is not an issue on the Oriental orthodox. Also why is the Armenian Nicene Creed different from the rest of the Oriental orthodox creed and it also does not poses a communion problem with the oriental orthodox, any information is greatly appreciated

thanks
marlo

It seems to me that Armenians can trace their unleavened tradition to very ancient times.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2007, 08:13:44 PM »

The practice of using unleavened bread for the Eucharist is very ancient in the Armenian Church and predates any of the Christological disputes.  I've been told leaven is not used because leaven is seen as somehow representing sin or impurity.  Since Christ is pure, we don't put leaven in the bread that is used in church.  I think that is why it is not a big issue.  In other words, our practices are different, but the underlying doctrine is the same.


With regard to the Nicene Creed, there are slight differences, but I've been told that is because we use the original version of it, whereas other Churches have revised it a little.  For example, the version we use is in the first person plural ("We believe...")  Other Churches have changed it to the first person singular ("I believe...")  I don't know why that is.  Anyway, it does not reflect a doctrinal difference, which is why it is not a problem.

The article found in the following thread discusses the Armenian use of unleavened bread.  The discussion starts at about the 19th paragraph.


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9335.0.html

If you click on the "Armenian Church" tag below, you will find other threads discussing the Armenian Church.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2007, 01:09:15 AM »

i also noticed that the nicene-constantinople creed with the holy spirit statement is different from the Armenian to the rest of the Oriental Orthodox, it seems that this difference of wordings or "additions" does not affect any Oriental Orthodox being in communion with Armenians  because the words can change but the teaching is the same. am i right with this?

if this is the case,, then the Eastern Orthodox is in error by applying the word per word of the Nicene-constantinople creed to the Latins, since the Latins insists that the word "and the Son" or filioque does indeed include the in "Holy Spirit proceeds from the father"! as per the Latin tradition teaches.

last one, was there any issue about concelebration with a Coptic Oriental orthodox priest in the Armenian church where the Armenian priest uses the unleavened bread, does the Coptic Priest uses a leaven bread on its own?


thanks
marlo


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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2007, 01:41:10 AM »

i also noticed that the nicene-constantinople creed with the holy spirit statement is different from the Armenian to the rest of the Oriental Orthodox, it seems that this difference of wordings or "additions" does not affect any Oriental Orthodox being in communion with Armenians  because the words can change but the teaching is the same. am i right with this?

if this is the case,, then the Eastern Orthodox is in error by applying the word per word of the Nicene-constantinople creed to the Latins, since the Latins insists that the word "and the Son" or filioque does indeed include the in "Holy Spirit proceeds from the father"! as per the Latin tradition teaches.


I am not even remotely an expert on the Creed or the Filioque, but I know that whatever the wording difference is in the Creed, the Armenians are in agreement with the other OO's and the EO's on the issues of the Filioque and whatever else is covered in the Creed.  Our wording is a little different in the part concerning the Holy Spirit, but again I think that was due to our keeping the original version after others changed it.  For example, we don't say from Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds, although we are in agreement with the EO's that He proceeds from the Father only (whatever that means.)  I have heard that the parts about from Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds were put into the Creed later.  I think the Latins put in the phrase about Him proceeding from the Father and Son, and in answer to that the Orthodox put in a phrase about Him proceeding only from the Father.  I don't know.  I could be wrong, but this is what I heard. 

I think you'll see in the Armenian Church that we preserve a lot of really old things that other Orthodox once had but changed.  For example there are some things in our liturgy which ancient liturgies once had but only the Armenians have now.  Also, we are the only Church to keep Christmas on January 6 (old calendar January 19.)  There was a time when all Christians did that, celebrating Christ's birth on the same day as His baptism. 


As far as concelebrations are concerned, I have just never heard of there being a problem concerning the bread.  I assume that when a Coptic priest celebrates with an Armenian priest in an Armenian church, unleavened bread is used.  Likewise, I would imagine that when an Armenian priest celebrates with Copts in a Coptic chruch that leavened bread is used.  It is just not an issue between us.

In fact there was a time a few years ago when our parish donated some money to a nearby Coptic parish that was just establishing itself.  As a gesture of gratitude, a deacon from the Coptic church brought over some of their bread that they give out when people leave.  He brought it just in time for us to give it to our congregation as they were leaving.  (Forgive me, I don't know what this bread is called in English.  In Armenian it is called "mas," which means "portion.")  Anyway Coptic mas is leavened, whereas Armenian mas is always unleaved, like the bread used for Communion.  This didn't create a problem.  The bread given by the Coptic deacon was given out and everyone loved it.
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2007, 02:31:34 AM »

well, since the latins also uses unleavened bread. Photius or Michael both Patriarch of constantinople  is  wrong on calling the latins heretics due to difference on how both perform the liturgy like the case of unleavened bread.

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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2007, 08:21:22 AM »

Marlo,

Armenian practises are a little different but so are in other churches too. For ex, the Armenian practise regarding commixture, is different from other EO and OO churches.
Also in the Syriac and Indian churches communion for adults is normatively in one species only. The chalice has not been withheld or anything just that normally adults are not communed by intinction.  In the OO communion this does not present any problem because the underlying doctrine is the same.
Even between Rome and the EO, the nature of the bread is not much of a problem nowadays. The filoque is a greater controversy as some EO's say that the filoque distorts the understanding of the trinity.
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2007, 03:22:58 PM »

Well, what is the Armenian text of the Creed?  Smiley

I have always understood that the center of the Filioque debate was the understanding of the Trinity, and not mere wording, and that this in itself is highly debatable and not very clear.  For sure, nowadays, the RC Church seem to teach a Trinity close to Orthodoxy, but the debate is probably the historical writings that were considered inspired to the RC's.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2007, 08:20:02 PM »

Here's the Creed as said in the Armenian Church:

http://www.armenianchurch.net/worship/creed.html
 
 
  Creed of the Armenian Church

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible;

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels;

Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints.

We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church;

In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins;

In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.

 

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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2007, 08:57:03 PM »

If anything, the Armenian version of the Creed seems to be more thorough, except the part of the procession which is missing.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2007, 01:31:37 AM »

The Oreintal Orthodox order is to use leaven bread only. It represents the resurrection of Christ.

Also communion is taken Body first and blood second.

Anything diferent from the above is questionable.
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2007, 02:14:26 AM »

Dear Amdetsion,

That's not always the case.  The Armenians who are are sister Church use unleavened bread and the Syrians and Indians from what I know mix the Body and Blood together.

So, I can never say that the Armenians or Syrians or Indians are questionable.  Otherwise, our own bishops are responsible for communing with them if they feel something is questionable.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2007, 02:26:07 AM »

The Oreintal Orthodox order is to use leaven bread only. It represents the resurrection of Christ.

Also communion is taken Body first and blood second.

Anything diferent from the above is questionable.

Tell that to your Church Fathers who remained in communion with the Armenians for several centuries despite our use of unleavened bread.   Smiley  You might want to ask your priest about this and get his take on it.  

We also mix the Holy Body and Holy Blood together. 

Another thing unique to us, besides the use of unleavened bread, is the fact that we don't use a communion spoon.  I think all the other OO's use them, like the EO's.  Not using one is another of those really ancient practices you'll find preserved in the Armenian Church.  The priest just uses his fingers to take the Holy Body, dipped in the Holy Blood, and puts it on the tongue of the faithful.  After all, it is the hand of the priest that was annointed by the Bishop, not a spoon.  Still, the fact that other OO's use a spoon does not create a problem for us.  When I go to a Coptic church I take the Holy Blood from the spoon, like everyone else.

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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2007, 03:27:24 AM »

Amdetsion, you should know that the Liturgical practice of the Armenians in regard to the use of unleavened bread is something the wider OO community has always been aware of; to my knowledge no objection has ever been raised.

As has been noted, it is not a modern innovation, but rather quite an ancient practice. Fr. Shenouda Maher Ishak, of the Coptic Orthodox Church, cites (on p. 32) Sts. Epiphanius (4th C.) and John Chrysostom (also 4th C.) as witnesses to this practice, in his book Liturgical and Ritual Issues and Proposals Concerning the Restoration of Communion. He also notes that Ethiopia preserves a similar tradition in its use of unleavened bread on Holy Thursday.
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2007, 04:02:42 AM »

Another thing unique to us, besides the use of unleavened bread, is the fact that we don't use a communion spoon.  I think all the other OO's use them, like the EO's.  Not using one is another of those really ancient practices you'll find preserved in the Armenian Church.  The priest just uses his fingers to take the Holy Body, dipped in the Holy Blood, and puts it on the tongue of the faithful.  After all, it is the hand of the priest that was annointed by the Bishop, not a spoon.

A good tradition.

The Melchites do likewise, but only fairly recently and for the wrong reason: as a deviation from the Byzantine norm supposedly because of the question of germs. 
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2007, 03:12:41 PM »

Interesting.

I apologize for my ignorance.

I thought it was a standard practice to use leaven bread only in the oriental orthodox church. I have taken communion in all but the Syrian and Armenian and this is what was done.

I see that this may not mean that it is the "standard" or most ancient tradtion.


I do remember now that in Ethiopia we have tradition of unleaven bread also. Particularly in our monastic centers. And also the cup is drank from by all communicants similar to when the cummunion was instituted in some of our ancient christian capitals like Axum. Thus no cross spoon.

I have to do more research on this area for sure.

Thanks for the information.
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2007, 06:08:22 PM »

Just to clarify for those who don't know:

The bread of the Armenian Liturgy is not paper-thin and crisp, such as the Latin Church uses. It is actually freshly made for each Liturgy, stamped with a seal, and has the texture of soft bread. It has more in common with eastern usage than western, despite the fact that it is unleavened.

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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2007, 07:30:42 PM »

Just to clarify for those who don't know:

The bread of the Armenian Liturgy is not paper-thin and crisp, such as the Latin Church uses. It is actually freshly made for each Liturgy, stamped with a seal, and has the texture of soft bread. It has more in common with eastern usage than western, despite the fact that it is unleavened.



Good clarification.

It seems that if you did not think too much about it it would appear as if the host was leavened although heavier do to it actually not having any leavening. Right!

If so then case closed for my part.

Thanks
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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2007, 06:46:52 PM »

Amdetsion, you should know that the Liturgical practice of the Armenians in regard to the use of unleavened bread is something the wider OO community has always been aware of; to my knowledge no objection has ever been raised.


There were objections in history. For example, some Syrian fathers (notably Mar Dionysius Bar Salibi) writing against the Armenian Church. But the general consensus was against such differing opinions. The unity and communion with Armenian Church is understood in terms of unity in faith - which takes precedence over other issues. It was strengthened, especially after the Addis Ababa council in 1965.  It was THE council that brought the OO together.

Paul

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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2007, 07:09:45 PM »

There were objections in history. For example, some Syrian fathers (notably Mar Dionysius Bar Salibi) writing against the Armenian Church. But the general consensus was against such differing opinions. The unity and communion with Armenian Church is understood in terms of unity in faith - which takes precedence over other issues. It was strengthened, especially after the Addis Ababa council in 1965.  It was THE council that brought the OO together.

Paul

I feel we strongly need another OO council in light of many many many things that are going on these days that effect us as OO's.  I'd like to see a united view on the dialogues with the EO's and what we should consider, and issues concerning internal problems of the OO Church in each case, and how we as one Orthodox family can help to solve rather than allow locals fight one another.  There's also the case with politics, on Israel being considered God's hallowed land that should still belong to the Jews, or the growing issue of women's priesthood, etc.  In this day in age, I see "signs" of a much-needed ecumenical council.

God bless.
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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2007, 07:12:41 PM »

Quote
I'd like to see a united view on the dialogues with the EO's


That already exists.
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« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2007, 07:23:58 PM »

I don't know.  I want something clearer than just "They're Orthodox."  And even if not on this issue, but I would also like to see one at least ending the inner problems of our OO Church that goes around.

I'd also like to see a unified vision of evangelism, and possible unity of jurisdictions in immigrant places rather than a mixing between churches as if causing the illusion of separation.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2007, 04:12:58 PM »

I feel we strongly need another OO council in light of many many many things that are going on these days that effect us as OO's.  I'd like to see a united view on the dialogues with the EO's and what we should consider, and issues concerning internal problems of the OO Church in each case, and how we as one Orthodox family can help to solve rather than allow locals fight one another.  There's also the case with politics, on Israel being considered God's hallowed land that should still belong to the Jews, or the growing issue of women's priesthood, etc.  In this day in age, I see "signs" of a much-needed ecumenical council.

God bless.

Dear Minasoliman, We we examine the history of OO churches after 1965 (described as the fourth Ecumenical council), we see tremendous progress in many areas. To this day the Sunday school curriculum the Malankara (Indian) Orthodox Syrian Church follows is based on the common OO curriculum. Also it was the 1965 Synod which decided the nature of our relationship with RC, EO and other Churches ( I don't remember if the Assyrian Church was specially mentioned). Our relationship with other Churches followed the principles agreed in 1965 - i.e. more freedom to sister Churches for relationship with EO, but with other Churches very restricted.

After 1965 OO churches faced many internal issues in Egypt, India, Ethiopia etc. But the cooperation is continuing through visits and joint activities in theological dialogues. The head of the Indian church (H.H. Didymus 1) visited H.H. Pope Shenouda in May 2006. Similarly there is good relationship with Armenian and EO Churches. Our relationship is continuing, but Churches are facing internal issues keeping Church fathers busy.

Paul

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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2007, 04:49:29 PM »

There were objections in history. For example, some Syrian fathers (notably Mar Dionysius Bar Salibi) writing against the Armenian Church. But the general consensus was against such differing opinions. The unity and communion with Armenian Church is understood in terms of unity in faith - which takes precedence over other issues. It was strengthened, especially after the Addis Ababa council in 1965.  It was THE council that brought the OO together.

Paul




Thanks Paul.

OO Christians rarely recall the Addis Abeba Council not to mention its significance.

God bless you and the OO church community and all the whole one universal apostolic and orthodox church of the Lord.

Deacon Amde Tsion

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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2008, 07:56:05 AM »

Here's the Creed as said in the Armenian Church:

http://www.armenianchurch.net/worship/creed.html
 
 
  Creed of the Armenian Church

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible;

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels;

Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints.

We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church;

In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins;

In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.

Am I right in thinking this is the Creed as it was formulated by the Council of Nicea? (As opposed to the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed used by all the other Churches)

If so, is there a reason the Armenians did not take on the revised/finalized Creed of the Second Ecumenical Council?
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2008, 11:06:26 PM »

We incorporated the additions of the Second Council.  As you can see, there is language about the Holy Spirit.  What I have heard, however, is that our version is just very ancient.  That's why we say "we," etc.
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2008, 09:41:33 PM »

i also noticed that the nicene-constantinople creed with the holy spirit statement is different from the Armenian to the rest of the Oriental Orthodox, it seems that this difference of wordings or "additions" does not affect any Oriental Orthodox being in communion with Armenians  because the words can change but the teaching is the same. am i right with this?

if this is the case,, then the Eastern Orthodox is in error by applying the word per word of the Nicene-constantinople creed to the Latins, since the Latins insists that the word "and the Son" or filioque does indeed include the in "Holy Spirit proceeds from the father"! as per the Latin tradition teaches.


I am not even remotely an expert on the Creed or the Filioque, but I know that whatever the wording difference is in the Creed, the Armenians are in agreement with the other OO's and the EO's on the issues of the Filioque and whatever else is covered in the Creed.  Our wording is a little different in the part concerning the Holy Spirit, but again I think that was due to our keeping the original version after others changed it.  For example, we don't say from Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds, although we are in agreement with the EO's that He proceeds from the Father only (whatever that means.)  I have heard that the parts about from Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds were put into the Creed later.  I think the Latins put in the phrase about Him proceeding from the Father and Son, and in answer to that the Orthodox put in a phrase about Him proceeding only from the Father.  I don't know.  I could be wrong, but this is what I heard. 

I think you'll see in the Armenian Church that we preserve a lot of really old things that other Orthodox once had but changed.  For example there are some things in our liturgy which ancient liturgies once had but only the Armenians have now.  Also, we are the only Church to keep Christmas on January 6 (old calendar January 19.)  There was a time when all Christians did that, celebrating Christ's birth on the same day as His baptism. 


As far as concelebrations are concerned, I have just never heard of there being a problem concerning the bread.  I assume that when a Coptic priest celebrates with an Armenian priest in an Armenian church, unleavened bread is used.  Likewise, I would imagine that when an Armenian priest celebrates with Copts in a Coptic chruch that leavened bread is used.  It is just not an issue between us.

In fact there was a time a few years ago when our parish donated some money to a nearby Coptic parish that was just establishing itself.  As a gesture of gratitude, a deacon from the Coptic church brought over some of their bread that they give out when people leave.  He brought it just in time for us to give it to our congregation as they were leaving.  (Forgive me, I don't know what this bread is called in English.  In Armenian it is called "mas," which means "portion.")  Anyway Coptic mas is leavened, whereas Armenian mas is always unleaved, like the bread used for Communion.  This didn't create a problem.  The bread given by the Coptic deacon was given out and everyone loved it.


It's called antidoron usually in English, qurban in Arabic.
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2008, 09:54:29 PM »

well, since the latins also uses unleavened bread. Photius or Michael both Patriarch of constantinople  is  wrong on calling the latins heretics due to difference on how both perform the liturgy like the case of unleavened bread.



I don't recall the Armenians making a dogmatic point of in and forcing it on others, as the Normans did for Rome.

As for St. Photios, the "Catholic Encyclopedia" states:
Some surprise has been expressed that Photius, so alert in picking flaws in the Latin Liturgy, made no use of a point of attack which occupies so prominent a place in the polemics of the later schismatics. The obvious explanation is that Photius was shrewd and learned enough to see that the position of the Latins could not successfully be assailed.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02172a.htm

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« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2011, 11:47:14 AM »

well, since the latins also uses unleavened bread. Photius or Michael both Patriarch of constantinople  is  wrong on calling the latins heretics due to difference on how both perform the liturgy like the case of unleavened bread.



I don't recall the Armenians making a dogmatic point of in and forcing it on others, as the Normans did for Rome.

As for St. Photios, the "Catholic Encyclopedia" states:
Some surprise has been expressed that Photius, so alert in picking flaws in the Latin Liturgy, made no use of a point of attack which occupies so prominent a place in the polemics of the later schismatics. The obvious explanation is that Photius was shrewd and learned enough to see that the position of the Latins could not successfully be assailed.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02172a.htm


I can't believe I left this dangling.

Another explanation is that the Latins had not taken the leaven out of their bread.  Earlier practice of sending pieces of the papal DL to other Churches, for instance, was called "frumentum" i.e. "leaven."
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« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2011, 11:57:29 PM »

i also noticed that the nicene-constantinople creed with the holy spirit statement is different from the Armenian to the rest of the Oriental Orthodox, it seems that this difference of wordings or "additions" does not affect any Oriental Orthodox being in communion with Armenians  because the words can change but the teaching is the same. am i right with this?

if this is the case,, then the Eastern Orthodox is in error by applying the word per word of the Nicene-constantinople creed to the Latins, since the Latins insists that the word "and the Son" or filioque does indeed include the in "Holy Spirit proceeds from the father"! as per the Latin tradition teaches.

The OO also condemn the filioque. Word for word, the exact same phrasing is not the issue. The issue is that all of the textual variations between the Armenian Creed and the standard OO Creed do not point to any different doctrines. The Latin filioque, however, adds a different doctrine to the Creed. That is how both EO and OO understand the filioque to be unacceptable.
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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2011, 12:00:35 AM »

well, since the latins also uses unleavened bread. Photius or Michael both Patriarch of constantinople  is  wrong on calling the latins heretics due to difference on how both perform the liturgy like the case of unleavened bread.

Photios mostly focused on the filioque, actually. That he was not wrong about.
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2011, 12:01:44 AM »

Also in the Syriac and Indian churches communion for adults is normatively in one species only.

Huh?!

Could you elaborate on this?
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2011, 12:03:54 AM »

*self-deletion*
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 12:08:44 AM by deusveritasest » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: March 06, 2011, 12:06:14 AM »

and the Syrians and Indians from what I know mix the Body and Blood together.

Another good point!
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« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2011, 12:10:35 AM »

Just to clarify for those who don't know:

The bread of the Armenian Liturgy is not paper-thin and crisp, such as the Latin Church uses. It is actually freshly made for each Liturgy, stamped with a seal, and has the texture of soft bread. It has more in common with eastern usage than western, despite the fact that it is unleavened.



I've known about this.

One thing I am confused about is the relationship between the bread for Communion and that which is handed out as the Mas. In some churches the bread for Communion is taken from the same bread the Mas/Antidoron is made of, but I have seen some indicates that this might not be the case in the Armenian church.
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« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2011, 12:22:09 AM »

Here's the Creed as said in the Armenian Church:

http://www.armenianchurch.net/worship/creed.html
 
 
  Creed of the Armenian Church

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.

God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible;

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.

We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels;

Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints.

We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church;

In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins;

In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.

Am I right in thinking this is the Creed as it was formulated by the Council of Nicea? (As opposed to the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed used by all the other Churches)

If so, is there a reason the Armenians did not take on the revised/finalized Creed of the Second Ecumenical Council?

I don't think it is exactly either the Creed of Nicaea or Constantinople, but rather predates both and was the Creed that that of Nicaea was based off of.
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