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Author Topic: God is wonderful in His creation...  (Read 5226 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 10, 2006, 02:01:07 PM »

Spiny creature's genome insight
By Molly Bentley

Scientists have unravelled the genetic code of the sea urchin, an animal whose evolutionary lineage may be key to understanding the relationship of humans and other vertebrates to invertebrates.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6130244.stm

==============================================================================================

Interesting read... I am always amazed at the complexity of God's creation (the notes about the Sea Urchin's immune system are fascinating!).
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2006, 06:29:34 PM »

And to think I was eating them in Greece.....
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2006, 06:51:42 PM »

Well, it's not like it's quite cannibalism....
Unless you have a spikey backside, too Wink

(one never knows...)
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2006, 07:01:00 PM »

Well, it's not like it's quite cannibalism....
Unless you have a spikey backside, too Wink

(one never knows...)
Well . . . that puts me in an awkward situation  Embarrassed
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2006, 07:13:34 PM »

Well . . . that puts me in an awkward situation  Embarrassed

It could be worse... I don't know how, though.  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2006, 09:37:23 PM »

The complexity of God's creation would be an argument against evolution, my friend.

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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2006, 11:44:14 PM »

Nobody was saying otherwise, friend.  I cracked a joke... some people got it.
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2006, 12:01:39 AM »

I think that young earth creationism is worth joking about too. There needs to be a middleground between what we read in Scripture and what we observe in the natural world.

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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2006, 12:09:08 AM »

The complexity of God's creation would be an argument against evolution, my friend.

And two and a half hours later:

I think that young earth creationism is worth joking about too.

Evolution and Creationism are both laughable...did God just take a really long time because it was a hard job or something?

I think this, when combined with the HOCNA thread, is proof enough, two separate people are posting on matthew's account, I'd strongly suggest changing your password, and perhaps looking into the basics of network security.
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2006, 12:32:46 AM »

Evolution and Creationism are both laughable...did God just take a really long time because it was a hard job or something?

Please do not create a false dichotomy between evolution and young earth creationism. The antiquity of the universe does not prove evolution, and neither does it negate the historicity of Genesis.
God's relationship with time is beyond human comprehension. There's no reason why His created work must be limited to 144 hours, less than 10,000 years ago.

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand ayears in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Perhaps these sites will be helpful:

www.answersincreation.org
www.reasons.org
www.godandscience.org

Romans 1:20 states that the attributes of God are clearly seen in the Creation. Therefore, the Creation cannot lie. If you believe that God created supernovas that never happened, starlight in transit, and radioactive decay just to fool the unbelieving, then how do you know that God didn't create us five minutes ago, with false memories of a false history? That the earth is ancient was discovered long before Darwin was even born.

In the church fathers, we find disagreement as to the length of the creation days:

Justin Martyr

"For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years [Gen. 5:5]. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression ‘The day of the Lord is a thousand years’ [Ps. 90:4] is connected with this subject" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 81 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

"And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since ‘a day of the Lord is a thousand years,’ he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin" (Against Heresies 5:23:2 [A.D. 189]).

Clement of Alexandria

"And how could creation take place in time, seeing time was born along with things which exist? . . . That, then, we may be taught that the world was originated and not suppose that God made it in time, prophecy adds: ‘This is the book of the generation, also of the things in them, when they were created in the day that God made heaven and earth’ [Gen. 2:4]. For the expression ‘when they were created’ intimates an indefinite and dateless production. But the expression ‘in the day that God made them,’ that is, in and by which God made ‘all things,’ and ‘without which not even one thing was made,’ points out the activity exerted by the Son" (Miscellanies 6:16 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"For who that has understanding will suppose that the first and second and third day existed without a sun and moon and stars and that the first day was, as it were, also without a sky? . . . I do not suppose that anyone doubts that these things figuratively indicate certain mysteries, the history having taken place in appearance and not literally" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:1:16 [A.D. 225]).

"The text said that ‘there was evening and there was morning’; it did not say ‘the first day,’ but said ‘one day.’ It is because there was not yet time before the world existed. But time begins to exist with the following days" (Homilies on Genesis [A.D. 234]).

"And since he [the pagan Celsus] makes the statements about the ‘days of creation’ ground of accusation—as if he understood them clearly and correctly, some of which elapsed before the creation of light and heaven, the sun and moon and stars, and some of them after the creation of these we shall only make this observation, that Moses must have forgotten that he had said a little before ‘that in six days the creation of the world had been finished’ and that in consequence of this act of forgetfulness he subjoins to these words the following: ‘This is the book of the creation of man in the day when God made the heaven and the earth [Gen. 2:4]’" (Against Celsus 6:51 [A.D. 248]).

"And with regard to the creation of the light upon the first day . . . and of the [great] lights and stars upon the fourth . . . we have treated to the best of our ability in our notes upon Genesis, as well as in the foregoing pages, when we found fault with those who, taking the words in their apparent signification, said that the time of six days was occupied in the creation of the world" (ibid., 6:60).

"For he [the pagan Celsus] knows nothing of the day of the Sabbath and rest of God, which follows the completion of the world’s creation, and which lasts during the duration of the world, and in which all those will keep the festival with God who have done all their work in their six days" (ibid., 6:61).

Cyprian

"The first seven days in the divine arrangement contain seven thousand years" (Treatises 11:11 [A.D. 250]).

Augustine

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20 [A.D. 408]).

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation" (ibid., 2:9).

"Seven days by our reckoning, after the model of the days of creation, make up a week. By the passage of such weeks time rolls on, and in these weeks one day is constituted by the course of the sun from its rising to its setting; but we must bear in mind that these days indeed recall the days of creation, but without in any way being really similar to them" (ibid., 4:27).

"[A]t least we know that it [the Genesis creation day] is different from the ordinary day with which we are familiar" (ibid., 5:2).

"For in these days [of creation] the morning and evening are counted until, on the sixth day, all things which God then made were finished, and on the seventh the rest of God was mysteriously and sublimely signalized. What kind of days these were is extremely difficult or perhaps impossible for us to conceive, and how much more to say!" (The City of God 11:6 [A.D. 419]).

"We see that our ordinary days have no evening but by the setting [of the sun] and no morning but by the rising of the sun, but the first three days of all were passed without sun, since it is reported to have been made on the fourth day. And first of all, indeed, light was made by the word of God, and God, we read, separated it from the darkness and called the light ‘day’ and the darkness ‘night’; but what kind of light that was, and by what periodic movement it made evening and morning, is beyond the reach of our senses; neither can we understand how it was and yet must unhesitatingly believe it" (ibid., 11:7).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Creation_and_Genesis.asp


Furthermore, the Scripture itself hints at the antiquity of the earth:

Genesis 49:26
The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Deuteronomy 33:15
And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills

Habakkuk 3:6
He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways [are] everlasting.


Did Christ take a really long time to become incarnate because it was hard to do?

Peace.
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2006, 12:46:21 AM »

Matthew,

I must commend you on your ability to cut and paste, forgive me if I dont quote the whole thing. Now on the substance, or lack thereof, in this discussion. Whether God was involved or not is irrelevant to the issue of evolution. It's a scientific theory that neither affirms or denies the existance or presence of a supernatural entity. Theistic evolution is still evolution, it just makes religious people feel better to stick a reference to God in there. As to the arguments you linked to about interpretations of Genesis, it's all semantics and, quite frankly, irrelevant. Genesis is an allegory, not a history...regardless of what Pastor Bob from your local Bible-Believing Baptist Church says...it really doesn't matter if it makes sense form a historical perspective.
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2006, 12:53:25 AM »

It's a scientific theory that neither affirms or denies the existance or presence of a supernatural entity.

That may be true, but the real question should be whether the evidence warrants even having the theory and forcing a compromise of traditional Christianity.

Genesis is an allegory, not a history...regardless of what Pastor Bob from your local Bible-Believing Baptist Church says...it really doesn't matter if it makes sense form a historical perspective.

Please do not create a false dichotomy between evolution and Protestant fundamentalism. That Genesis is history can be demonstrated by Scripture and the patristic literature. For example, would the Church declare Adam and Eve as saints if they never existed? Given that the Holy Spirit leads the Church to all truth, I honestly doubt it.

Peace.
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2006, 12:57:35 AM »

Matthew B, (this is making arguing with two personalities much easier)

Please do not create a false dichotomy between evolution and Protestant fundamentalism. That Genesis is history can be demonstrated by Scripture and the patristic literature. For example, would the Church declare Adam and Eve as saints if they never existed? Given that the Holy Spirit leads the Church to all truth, I honestly doubt it.

Now that you mention it, I dont recall a feast day for them, surely it should be more publicized considering how significant of figures they are in the Scriptures.
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2006, 01:04:06 AM »

Again, please do not perpetuate the false dichotomy between young earth creationism and evolution. One can be doctrinally conservative while also recognizing the antiquity of the universe, which only serves to reinforce the eternality of God. That God created all things in six days, and formed Adam from the dust of the ground, I do not question. But God's concept of time is obviously different from ours, and there's no reason why each "day" would need to be a literal 24-hours, especially with the various possible meanings of the Hebrew "yom."

Peace.
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2006, 01:09:51 AM »

Well Matthew (A and B), you win the energizer bunny award tonight. You out lasted me in this  incredibly long exchange of posts with absolutely no content tonight. I think there's more intellectual stimulation in the singing of 99 bottles of beer on the wall in the Random Postings thread, good night.
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« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2006, 01:13:29 AM »

It's not my fault if you cannot see why the false dichotomy shouldn't exist. There's only one Matthew, my friend. It wouldn't be so hard to understand what I'm saying if you just tried. "Creationism" and "evolution" are thorougly Western terms, and you've ignored the other possible options which exist in between, and the patristic quotes which I've provided.
I have no hostile feelings toward you, and seek to understand your positions, so it would be good if you were to do the same.

Peace.
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2006, 02:36:18 PM »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6146908.stm

Neanderthal DNA secrets unlocked
By Paul Rincon
Science reporter, BBC News

A genetic breakthrough could help clear up some long-standing mysteries surrounding our closest evolutionary relatives: the Neanderthals.

Scientists have partially reconstructed the genome of a Neanderthal man who lived 38,000 years ago.

The genetic information they extracted from a thigh bone has allowed them to identify more than a million building blocks of Neanderthal DNA so far.

Details of the efforts appear in the journals Nature and Science.

"The sequence data will serve as a DNA time machine," said co-author Edward Rubin, from the Joint Genome Institute in Walnut Creek, California.

That will tell us about aspects of Neanderthal biology that we can never get from their bones and associated artefacts."

Studying the Neanderthal genome will shed light on the genetic changes that made our species what it is, after the evolutionary lineages of Neanderthals and modern humans diverged from one another.

It could also reveal what colour hair, eyes and skin Neanderthals had, whether they were capable of modern speech, shed light on aspects of their brain function and determine whether they contributed to the modern human gene pool through interbreeding.

'Technical triumph'

Researchers have already sequenced mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from 12 Neanderthals. This is DNA from the cell's powerhouses, which is passed down from mother to child. It tends to be preserved longer than nuclear DNA.

While mtDNA has confirmed that Neanderthals were indeed different from us, the information gleaned from it is limited.

 To answer more detailed questions about our evolutionary cousins, scientists had to extract DNA that came from the cell's nucleus. This "nuclear DNA" encodes most of an organism's genetic blueprint.

Researchers used cutting-edge DNA sequencing techniques to retrieve genetic material from the Neanderthal femur found in the Vindija Cave, Croatia.

Writing in Nature journal, Professor Svante Paabo and colleagues describe how they recovered more than one million base pairs - the building blocks of DNA - by directly reading the genetic sequence.

In another paper published in Science, Professor Rubin's team used a different approach called metagenomics, where the fragments of Neanderthal genetic material were incorporated into bacteria which then copied themselves, generating a living "library" of DNA sequences. This method resulted in the recovery of 65,250 base pairs of Neanderthal DNA.

While direct sequencing allows scientists to recover more genetic material, it is a random process. The metagenomic approach should allow scientists to call up specific genetic sequences of interest from the DNA "library" in a targeted manner.

Language question

Professor Paabo told BBC science correspondent Pallab Ghosh that he planned to look at the form of the gene FOXP2 in Neanderthals; this gene is implicated in the development of language skills and has undergone evolution in modern humans since our divergence from chimpanzees.

"We have two little snippets of two little genes involved in skin and hair colour, but they don't give any hint of a special variant that would be of interest," Paabo told BBC News.

The two teams basically agree, within their margins of error, that the evolutionary lineages of Neanderthals and modern humans split somewhere around 500,000 years ago. This fits with previous estimates from mtDNA and archaeological data.

Professor Paabo, from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, and his team also show that Neanderthals came from a very small ancestral population of about 3,000 individuals.

At their peak, Neanderthals dominated a wide range, stretching from Britain and Iberia in the west to Israel in the south and Uzbekistan in the east. This stocky, muscular human species was our closest evolutionary relative.

Modern humans entered Europe about 40,000 years ago; and within 10,000 years, the Neanderthals had largely disappeared from the continent. By 24,000 years ago, the last survivors had vanished from their refuge in the Iberian Peninsula.

Extinct relative

The question of whether modern humans and Neanderthals mated when they encountered each other 40,000 years ago is highly controversial. One US scientist recently suggested modern humans might have acquired a variant of the brain gene microcephalin through interbreeding with Neanderthals.

Edward Rubin's team found no evidence for a Neanderthal contribution to the modern gene pool, but Professor Paabo's analysis hints at a possible contribution in the other direction - from modern humans into Neanderthals. The researchers say more extensive sequencing is needed to address this possibility.

Professor Chris Stringer, from London's Natural History Museum said the results "confirm the distinctiveness of the Neanderthals, and support previous estimates of the divergence time.

"Having a Neanderthal genome will also throw light on our own evolution, by allowing a three-way comparison of the genetic blueprints that produced Neanderthals, and that today produce us and our closest living relatives, the chimpanzees."

The researchers plan to produce a rough draft of the full Neanderthal genome sequence within the next two years.

Paul.Rincon-INTERNET@bbc.co.uk

================================================================================================================

Fascinating, Captain.  Eagerly anticipating the 3-way comparison they describe at the end.
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2006, 04:42:10 PM »

Is outrage! Evil evolutionist plot. Lies, lies, lies.  Cheesy

Thanks for finding this.

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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2006, 05:06:50 PM »

Is outrage! Evil evolutionist plot. Lies, lies, lies.  Cheesy

Thanks for finding this.

Αριστοκλής, The Evil Evolutionist

They're fudging the data?  Then why couldn't we be related to the lions or something more majestic than the poo-throwers or the chimpanzees?  Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2006, 06:20:58 PM »

That is Way Cool about the Neanderthal DNA.  Thanks for posting it.

Ebor
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« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2006, 03:36:28 AM »


That Neandertal was a distinct species does not demonstrate that they shared a common ancestor with modern humans, nor that scientists have discovered a mechanism which would explain how the transition from ape to man was possible.

If the human mind is nothing more than the product of a blind evolutionary process, how can we trust our theory of evolution in the first place?

The Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism   
Alvin Plantinga 
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/philosophy/virtual_library/articles/plantinga_alvin/naturalism_defeated.pdf

Peace.
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« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2006, 08:11:14 AM »

The Neanderthalls were not a distinct speacies, but a sub-species of humans.
We're Homo Sapiens Sapiens
and they're Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis (insert correct Latin term here).
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2006, 05:25:15 PM »

The Neanderthalls were not a distinct speacies, but a sub-species of humans.
We're Homo Sapiens Sapiens
and they're Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis (insert correct Latin term here).

Quote
Jeffrey Laitman, a professor and director of the Center for Anatomy and Functional Morphology at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City, said the finding could help solve an anthropological puzzle.
"Are they a sub-group of humans or a separate species? That's the crux of the issue. This genome work speaks very strongly that they are a distinct species and, equally importantly, that there is no evidence that there was any mixture -- no interbreeding -- between the two species," he said.
http://www.stjhs.org/healthnews/healthday/061115HD536110.htm

Quote
A computer analysis of the skulls of modern humans, Neanderthals, monkeys and apes shows that we are substantially different, physically, from those early humans.

New York University paleoanthropologist Katerina Harvati said Neanderthals should be considered a separate species from Homo sapiens, and not just a sub-species.

"We interpret the evidence presented here as supporting the view that Neanderthals represent an extinct human species and therefore refute the regional continuity model for Europe," she and colleagues wrote in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/01/26/neanderthals.ancestor1.reut/index.html

Again, we have no reason to believe that Neandertal and modern humans shared a common ancestor unless we accept common descent in the first place.

Peace.
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2006, 06:38:05 PM »

"We" don't?  Perhaps you do not, but you are neither a biologist, a paleontologist or an anthropologist.  What are your qualifications to speak for what "we" know or don't know, may I ask?  There is the sub-species theory and the 2 species hypothesis.  Either way there there is still some relation between Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens.

Quote
However, Neanderthals and modern humans (Homo sapiens) are very similar anatomically -- so similar, in fact, that in 1964, it was proposed that Neanderthals are not even a separate species from modern humans, but that the two forms represent two subspecies: Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens sapiens. This classification was popular through the 1970's and 80's, although many authors today have returned to the previous two-species hypothesis. Either way, Neanderthals represent a very close evolutionary relative of modern humans.
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/neand.htm

http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/homoneaderthalensis.htm  for some fascinating items on remains of Neanderthal. and this quote at the end:

Quote
The eventual fate of the Neanderthals in the modern human phylogeny is still a much questioned issue, and a vigorously debated one. However, one thing is certain, the issue is not as cut and dry as many supporters of the Out of Africa II theory oftentimes claim. It seems highly unlikely that the Neanderthals contributed absolutely nothing to the modern genome, but whether they left a large heritage in modern humans or an insignificant one is a question that might not be answered satisfactorily for a long time.

Sometimes it is better to leave a question open to new data, then to make definite statements.

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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2006, 06:39:52 PM »

The Neanderthalls were not a distinct speacies, but a sub-species of humans.
We're Homo Sapiens Sapiens
and they're Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis (insert correct Latin term here).

"Neanderthalensis"

 Wink Smiley

Ebor
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2006, 06:40:06 PM »

Again, we have no reason to believe that Neandertal and modern humans shared a common ancestor unless we accept common descent in the first place.

Peace.

No reason except the overwhelming fossil and DNA evidence that you refuse to objectively consider Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2006, 07:29:49 PM »

No reason except the overwhelming fossil and DNA evidence that you refuse to objectively consider Roll Eyes

I'm just posting so that your post is read again by Matthew777.  Wink
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2006, 04:45:58 AM »

No reason except the overwhelming fossil and DNA evidence that you refuse to objectively consider Roll Eyes

Our human minds prevent us from considering the evidence objectively, we must have a lense through which evidence is interpreted. The methodology of modern science is to explain the natural world through natural mechanisms. But creation is a theological, rather than a scientific concept. All one must do is look at the inability of natural selection acting on random mutation to create the human person and the theological answer starts to look more satisfying.

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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2006, 07:36:02 AM »

Goobleygook!
You've just applied a part of Quantum Theory to Theology. ROFL...
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2006, 12:11:58 AM »

Our human minds prevent us from considering the evidence objectively, we must have a lense through which evidence is interpreted.

What on earth is that all about, please?  A biologist, I think, can look at a speciman and objectively find things that are the same or different compared to specimans from the same or a different species.  An astronomer can look at photographs of the skies and objectively see that an object has moved relative to the star field.

Quote
The methodology of modern science is to explain the natural world through natural mechanisms. But creation is a theological, rather than a scientific concept.

Oh?   Undecided  Is calling it the "Beginning of the Universe" better at being scientific?

Quote
All one must do is look at the inability of natural selection acting on random mutation to create the human person and the theological answer starts to look more satisfying.

How does one do that?  Human beings are here and have been for some while.  How do you know what natural selection is able or unable to do?

Ebor
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