Author Topic: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me  (Read 2155 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2020, 05:26:41 PM »
I meant this verse

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith

It would include himself

Offline SolEX01

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2020, 05:31:23 PM »
Thank you.   :)

You are going against that scripture with "church of mikeforjesus."

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2020, 05:34:49 PM »
I think I actually meant this but when I read it after this verse it may make you think it is not relevant but I think it is. I also remembered the Romans verse but I meant this verse Romans says those words but Corinthians has that meaning

1 Corinthians 4:6-7
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 05:35:08 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2020, 05:38:42 PM »
I was going to write before this but I thought it may be a stumbling block but now I think it is right that I should do so but die with my beliefs if I am not convinced

I decided I have responsibility to know truth for others. Though I think others are saved I have to make sure I am exposed to the truth. I need more to be convinced if Catholic Church is true so I will go to their church first to convince me to be confirmed and have communion  and to be convinced by them. Afterwards I can return to the Orthodox Church and accept both. I will also go to Orthodox Church to be more sure of the orthodox position. I will see if any of them make a difference

But if I see other Christians can live righteous and according to will of God or I find God can convince me that I only need Him to live righteous than I know salvation is among all christians. The bible says you shall know them by their fruits

People have responsibility for themself to trust the bible that God loves them or join a church. Perhaps God can give them assurance or those are being punished without assurance because they never followed God but they should still believe if they think their path is more pleasing to God or seek what church teaches for assurance but if I am not convinced of needing church for righteous living I die with my own beliefs so I don’t think people should stumble
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 05:49:30 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Ainnir

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2020, 05:40:50 PM »
Just be sure to pray for God's guidance throughout all of that, mike.  :)
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a wretched sinner.

Jacob wrestled with God all through the night.  At the break of day, he became Israel.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #95 on: June 26, 2020, 05:44:41 PM »
Just be sure to pray for God's guidance throughout all of that, mike.  :)

+1

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2020, 05:47:46 PM »
Thankyou I will hopefully
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 05:48:18 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #97 on: June 26, 2020, 05:49:07 PM »
I was going to write before this but I thought it may be a stumbling block but now I think it is right that I should do so but die with my beliefs if I am not convinced

I decided I have responsibility only to save myself.

You can't save yourself if you become your own church.  That's a demonstration of Pride.

Though I think others are saved I have to make sure I am exposed to the truth. I need more to be convinced if Catholic Church is true so I will go to their church first to convince me to be confirmed and have communion  and to be convinced by them. Afterwards I can return to the Orthodox Church and accept both. I will also go to Orthodox Church to be more sure of the orthodox position. I will see if any of them make a difference

But if I see other Christians can live righteous and according to will of God or I find God can convince me that I only need Him to live righteous than I know salvation is among all christians. The bible says you shall know them by their fruits

People have responsibility for themself to trust the bible that God loves them or join a church. Perhaps God can give them assurance or those are being punished without assurance because they never followed God but they should still believe if they think their path is more pleasing to God or seek what church teaches for assurance but if I am not convinced of needing church for righteous living I die with my own beliefs so I don’t think people should stumble

You don't want to die estranged from God.  You are estranging yourself from God with "church of mikeforjesus."

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #98 on: June 26, 2020, 06:03:40 PM »
How do you know ? I think to declare for sure churches are right is not pleasing to God as it may not be true.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 06:11:05 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #99 on: June 26, 2020, 06:11:37 PM »
How do you know ? I think to declare for sure churches are right is not pleasing to God as it may not be true

Do you think God is pleased with all the divisions in Christianity?  Do you think he'll be happy with your creation of "church of mikeforjesus?"  God is very patient and hopes that man will unify himself to him instead of creating division after division.

You can't be a member of Catholic and Orthodox churches at the same time.  Pick one and stick with it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 06:12:09 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #100 on: June 26, 2020, 06:14:31 PM »
No He is not pleased but He knew they would happen that is why my way is better and I think he is pleased with my view as it may be most biblical
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 06:21:19 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #101 on: June 26, 2020, 06:14:45 PM »
The church view doesn’t give much hope to people who may not be able to believe the claims of the true church for sure in the remaining time they have if it is not the truth. How can one actually be sure he is in the true church even if he thinks he is. Unless it is possible for them to find out.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 06:24:45 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #102 on: June 26, 2020, 06:23:38 PM »
How do you know ? I think to declare for sure churches are right is not pleasing to God as it may not be true.

If what Christ instituted, and all the saints preached, and martyrs died for is actually true.... what then?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #103 on: June 26, 2020, 06:25:12 PM »
Also you are supposed to believe truly that your church is true do any actually believe and how do they know they are not mistaken.

Because they are taught from the very beginning that the Orthodox (or Catholic for sake of argument) church is the one true church.  You've been exposed to the divisions of Protestantism and as a consequence, you've become divided yourself.

The church view doesn’t give much hope to people who may not be able to believe the claims of the true church for sure in the remaining time they have if it is not the truth. Unless it is possible for them to find out.

People look for truths that they are comfortable with, like you creating your own church.  You're not comfortable with what the other churches say about themselves.  In the 1950's, when Orthodox started marrying non-Orthodox in large numbers, conservative communities did not welcome the new members with open arms.  As a consequence, people left the church for other churches where they felt welcomed and comfortable.  Even today, some non-Orthodox are uncomfortable with attending an Orthodox church and stick with what they're familiar with.  It's become so desparate, that Archbishop Elphidophoros calls for non-Orthodox to receive Communion because they've already been blessed by the sacrament of Marriage.  To accept Holy Communion, one must accept that the body of blood of Jesus Christ is in the chalice.  One must also believe in the teachings of the Orthodox church.  Where is communion in "church of mikeforjesus?"

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #104 on: June 26, 2020, 06:25:40 PM »
How do you know ? I think to declare for sure churches are right is not pleasing to God as it may not be true.

If what Christ instituted, and all the saints preached, and martyrs died for is actually true.... what then?

Of course I would have to join but it does not seem Gods will for me that is why I am going to find out
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 06:27:04 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #105 on: June 26, 2020, 06:28:02 PM »
No He is not pleased but He knew they would happen that is why my way is better and I think he is pleased with my view as it may be most biblical

Your interpretation of biblical does not equal the church's interpretation of biblical.  You're hiding behind the bible because of the fallacies of Protestantism.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #106 on: June 26, 2020, 06:41:08 PM »
Also you are supposed to believe truly that your church is true do any actually believe and how do they know they are not mistaken.

Because they are taught from the very beginning that the Orthodox (or Catholic for sake of argument) church is the one true church.  You've been exposed to the divisions of Protestantism and as a consequence, you've become divided yourself.

The church view doesn’t give much hope to people who may not be able to believe the claims of the true church for sure in the remaining time they have if it is not the truth. Unless it is possible for them to find out.

People look for truths that they are comfortable with, like you creating your own church.  You're not comfortable with what the other churches say about themselves.  In the 1950's, when Orthodox started marrying non-Orthodox in large numbers, conservative communities did not welcome the new members with open arms.  As a consequence, people left the church for other churches where they felt welcomed and comfortable.  Even today, some non-Orthodox are uncomfortable with attending an Orthodox church and stick with what they're familiar with.  It's become so desparate, that Archbishop Elphidophoros calls for non-Orthodox to receive Communion because they've already been blessed by the sacrament of Marriage.  To accept Holy Communion, one must accept that the body of blood of Jesus Christ is in the chalice.  One must also believe in the teachings of the Orthodox church.  Where is communion in "church of mikeforjesus?"

Communion is mostly a time to bring believers together to strengthen their remembrance of Christ and Christ promises to be where 2 or 3 are gathered and to bless them. I am not sure I believe it is necessary to take it to be saved upon death for that purpose because  Jesus said He is the bread of life and His words are spirit I am not going to discuss that right now but I could later but if it was one can still have it among others.  Jesus said He will give some of the hidden manna to eat to believers so it is Jesus who gives it to those who are prepared and He may mean He is the hidden manna for all believers
Anyway every priest I went to said I can have communion if I believe but doubt anyway I do believe it could be the  body of blood in the church just not only in the church I do believe it could be only in the church just don’t know it is and that it is body and blood but  I think it could be and this told to me is sufficient to allow one to have it.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #107 on: June 26, 2020, 06:52:34 PM »
No He is not pleased but He knew they would happen that is why my way is better and I think he is pleased with my view as it may be most biblical

Your interpretation of biblical does not equal the church's interpretation of biblical.  You're hiding behind the bible because of the fallacies of Protestantism.

I am told not to even reply to use because everyone just tries to show he knows better and you could try to confuse one and to try to take the peace out of one. But I believe I should give an answer to one but if I can’t at a time it doesn’t mean you are right I still may believe it but not be able to answer now. As for what you said I can only say what you are saying is not true. I do not believe Protestantism is wrong about bible alone but I don’t agree with how all Protestants interpret the bible or how they judge others who do not agree with everything they believe

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #108 on: June 26, 2020, 07:14:38 PM »
Communion brings people together to remember Christ death so people should do it that is why it was commanded because you can help people and Christ will bless you as you do it where 2 or 3 are gathered but there are other ways you can commune and Christ to be with you
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 07:23:26 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #109 on: June 26, 2020, 10:04:48 PM »
Communion brings people together to remember Christ death so people should do it that is why it was commanded because you can help people and Christ will bless you as you do it where 2 or 3 are gathered but there are other ways you can commune and Christ to be with you

Other ways?  of communion?  Care to explain?   ???

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #110 on: June 26, 2020, 10:47:32 PM »
Whenever people are commemorating the death of Christ if they have examined themself with the help of others even if not in a church Christ is present to give of Himself. Whenever they are contrite.But I think it is still a command to be done in a church because God wanted churches to exist to help one another. More are helped the more you do so in person but if you don’t have a large following as you should you can still help some but you have less reward because less are benefited. But perhaps Christ wanted people to go to church and break bread and drink wine and be present to be remembered only during that time in a special way to give certain blessings to be saved upon death to those who come together as a congregation and give them greater reward
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 10:53:30 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #111 on: June 26, 2020, 11:00:57 PM »
Whenever people are commemorating the death of Christ if they have examined themself with the help of others even if not in a church Christ is present to give of Himself. Whenever they are contrite.But I think it is still a command to be done in a church because God wanted churches to exist to help one another. More are helped the more you do so in person but if you don’t have a large following as you should you can still help some but you have less reward because less are benefited. But perhaps Christ wanted people to go to church and break bread and drink wine and be present to be remembered only during that time in a special way to give certain blessings to be saved upon death to those who come together as a congregation and give them greater reward

We go to church to remember the resurrection of Christ yet we preach Christ crucified.  Without the crucifixion, there's no resurrection.

I'm having a difficult time understanding your statement.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #112 on: June 26, 2020, 11:15:37 PM »
We remember Christ death and resurrection. I have given an attempt at explaining. I don’t think others are completely deprived of Christ outside communion they still commune with Him through prayer and His word they lose a blessing of commemorating Him having that blessing and reward I believe He will make Himself present in communion which is symbolic of Himself who is the bread of life because He wants it done in church. If others don’t do it they lose its blessing and reward but they can still be saved. He wants it to be done for witnessing
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 11:19:10 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2020, 11:28:29 PM »
There are other ways to witness to Christ.  I'm not sure if there are other ways of communing with Christ (unless you obtain theosis).  I think you're mixing up witness with communing.

As others have told you, keep praying to God.  Do not listen to your own thoughts because they are leading you astray.  If your thoughts are that dominant, seek external help.  Creating your own church is a symptom of dominant, excessive thoughts.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2020, 11:30:44 PM »
We go to church to remember the resurrection of Christ yet we preach Christ crucified.  Without the crucifixion, there's no resurrection.

I'm having a difficult time understanding your statement.
I think mike just doesn't want people outside Orthodoxy to be wrong or go to hell.  According to that premise, there has to be some way that their gatherings and Lord's supper is ok and potentially salvific.  No, it's not Orthodox, but sometimes we have to grapple with difficult things.  Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't.  :)
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #115 on: June 26, 2020, 11:31:28 PM »
They can still remember Him as they examine themselves through His word and seeking fellowship with others but Christ wanted full grace only to be done in the church to receive full grace and His full communion in church because He wants others to taste His grace in the church to witness to others
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 11:41:09 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline recent convert

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #116 on: June 28, 2020, 12:18:29 PM »
You can confess to a priest but it is not necessary. If he is a elder you may get better advise if he has experience

It is necessary, the priest still fulfills sacraments that go back to the book of Leviticus traceable to the burnt, grain, peace, sin etc. offerings. The priestly role in confession is traceable to Ezekiel 3 etc. especially in that Ezekiel was a priest. The excess ordinances of offerings etc. have been spiritualized but the essence of confession pronounced by the Lord ( John 20:19-23 etc.) is a continuation & fulfillment of the old.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #117 on: June 28, 2020, 12:34:00 PM »
I am convinced my position is true and most pleases God.

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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #118 on: June 28, 2020, 12:49:12 PM »
We no longer need to see a priest for guidance but we have the Holy Spirit in us and access to the Father at all times for wisdom. You can go to any Christian for support if they have walked with the Lord more where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name there am I jesus says it can be any 2. He is there for 1 too but one can pray for agreement together in unity

You have mentioned this "2 or 3 are gathered" verse multiple times in this thread, but what does the entire passage actually say? Here's the part you seem to be thinking of, Matt. 18:19-20:

Quote
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

However, here is what came directly before those passages, Matt. 18:15-18, which provide the context for the part you are bringing up:

Quote
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

So it is true that the passage speaks of two or three gathering and agreeing. However, the main point of the passage is what to do when Christians don't agree on things, when someone is confronted about something and won't relent. In that case the church plays a specific but important role. The passage says that if you can't get your fellow Christian to come around, and even after bringing in other Christians no progress can be made, then you should go to the church. But how will you do that if you have left the church or are just sort of drifting? (I've thought a lot about this in my own personal struggles)  And as if to emphasize the importance of the Church, Christ gives power to "bind" and "loose" (Matt. 18:18), and we know he was addressing his close disciples (Matt. 18:1). Everyone has been given gifts, some for having pastoral authority and leading, others for doing various ministries while being led...

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7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation...

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

-- Heb. 13:7, 17

"And Moses said to the children of Israel, 'Because ye have wept and have asked for flesh, behold the Lord will give you flesh to eat; not one day, nor two, nor five, nor ten, but a month of days shall ye eat, until it goeth out of your nostrils, and becometh nauseous to you.'" (The Book of the Bee, 30)

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #119 on: June 28, 2020, 10:06:06 PM »
I believe He means in general  where 2 or 3 are gathered to fellowship He is there

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation...

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

-- Heb. 13:7, 17


I don’t disagree with the idea of pastors though not the idea of church where they are lords just examples to the flock

Every Christian has duty to speak the word of God to others that they know and to worry about where others are following. The Holy Spirit has given to some the gift of teaching but it is never exclusive and we have responsibility to seek what other teachers teach and we should seek fellowship with other believers and therefore others should make sure to disciple one they see lacking. You can gather in a church to find such believers but you have to find a church where there is one with actual experience or gift of teaching to instruct one

« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 10:16:38 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #120 on: June 28, 2020, 10:21:30 PM »
But to be sure and because I am believing church could be true if it is possible life is only lived in church I have to experience it I will go to church to see if I need the church and I will seek to join and find the true church.I will see if they make any special difference that God and others can not make.
Also I think you may only need God but others have a duty to correct you if they find you are not following God but those with gift of teaching either have it because they chose to focus on it and growing and God gives it to them or God gave it to them and either way He chooses them to be in charge of a flock. Every church should have one in charge of flock
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 10:34:07 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #121 on: June 28, 2020, 10:39:53 PM »
I don’t think necessarily there is 1 church that is true that has salvation in it or or apostolic churches which only have salvation in it but it may be only those who want to believe in it can stay in it I just go to see if I can be convinced but otherwise I won’t know and I will assume that it seems other Christians can be saved
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 10:47:41 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #122 on: June 28, 2020, 11:00:23 PM »
Perhaps God wants to convince others He is sufficient but He can not get rid of the church system because He can not remove free will of people who would create groups and it had to start with the early church to not allow other groups to think they have better validity
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 11:01:39 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #123 on: June 28, 2020, 11:15:36 PM »
You can confess to a priest but it is not necessary. If he is a elder you may get better advise if he has experience

It is necessary, the priest still fulfills sacraments that go back to the book of Leviticus traceable to the burnt, grain, peace, sin etc. offerings. The priestly role in confession is traceable to Ezekiel 3 etc. especially in that Ezekiel was a priest. The excess ordinances of offerings etc. have been spiritualized but the essence of confession pronounced by the Lord ( John 20:19-23 etc.) is a continuation & fulfillment of the old.

Ezekiel 3 is the role of the prophets God no longer speaks by prophets but through His Son. Even those with the gift of teaching use God’s words to convict not their claim to specially know God will for your life as though they received a word from God
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 11:16:52 PM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #124 on: June 29, 2020, 03:10:18 AM »
The church is all believers. If any wise man among them can prove with the word of God they must listen. The truth is found among the opinions of all believers. They should be convicted by the one who speaks the truth.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 03:15:29 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #125 on: June 29, 2020, 03:27:25 AM »
It is all the believers who are supposed to try to most convince. But exhausting all options you did your responsibility. The word of God is already perfectly clear but some can better convince about it and all are to try to make that reconciliation and if they listen to none you did your responsibility to win them you must let them go so they no longer stumble you with their actions
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 03:30:04 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #126 on: June 29, 2020, 03:49:47 AM »
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

This means whatever the believers do not address and try to fix it will be their fault if they have not done their job in trying to fix it.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 04:00:25 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #127 on: June 29, 2020, 04:45:07 AM »
He was addressing a common believer to try to loose a sin by taking a person through the process
If they do not take them through a process their  sins may be bound  but if they do and they listen their sins can be loosed

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #128 on: July 01, 2020, 12:51:14 AM »
It is the responsibility of those who have knowledge normally elders to teach the way and guide everyone who seeks their help and they should be trying to help all they see with issues . Christ builds His church on the rock which is faith in Christ which is having relationship with Christ and allowing Him to guide one through prayer and reading His word because only those who have relationship with Christ are true believers in Christ who experience His guidance

But one still needs the church which is other believers to confirm he is on the way which God is able to guide alone as David said I have more understanding than all my teachers for I meditate on your precepts but he still had them for safety
Because one may not be diligent
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 01:01:16 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #129 on: July 01, 2020, 01:34:53 AM »
People are not responsible for everyone others have to ask from them if they do not ask no one has responsibility for others but if someone definitely needs their help they should try to help them  too but one is not to interfere in other business when one may not know he knows better
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 01:42:17 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: To be fair I give churches chance to convince me
« Reply #130 on: July 01, 2020, 01:51:11 AM »
It is the responsibility of elders to make men disciples of Jesus and not of themselves be examples to them not lords teach them to learn from all elders and seek wisdom from all church