Author Topic: Patriarch Bartholomew Tells Patriarch Theophilos no Meeting, Chastises English  (Read 4571 times)

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Offline Tzimis

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I'm staying out of the inter-patriarchal fighting.  However...

How is the Patriarch of Jerusalem the child of anyone?

Until it had ecumenically-recognized autocephaly, it was under real jurisdiction from Antioch, IIRC.  Jerusalem is the holy city, but it wasn't much of an ecclesial center post-sack (70 AD).
It's kind of a weird issue because on one hand you are right, but on the other hand it was a bishopric, so it is not nothing ecclesiologically, and it is called Mother of All Churches, so in a sense one would consider this bishopric to be the mother of Constantinople.

Exactly, and until the small fishing village of Byzantium was established by an Ecumenical COuncil it was a suffragan see of no import.
Unfortunately.  Until you devise a time machine to change that.  Its history. 
Didn't Pharoah say. Let it be written, let it be done?  ;)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 08:35:08 PM by Tzimis »

Offline Brilko

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Pharoah said, “Bury me not on the lone prairie. Build a giant pyramid over me.”

Offline ICXCNIKA

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I'm staying out of the inter-patriarchal fighting.  However...

How is the Patriarch of Jerusalem the child of anyone?

Until it had ecumenically-recognized autocephaly, it was under real jurisdiction from Antioch, IIRC.  Jerusalem is the holy city, but it wasn't much of an ecclesial center post-sack (70 AD).
It's kind of a weird issue because on one hand you are right, but on the other hand it was a bishopric, so it is not nothing ecclesiologically, and it is called Mother of All Churches, so in a sense one would consider this bishopric to be the mother of Constantinople.

Exactly, and until the small fishing village of Byzantium was established by an Ecumenical COuncil it was a suffragan see of no import.
Unfortunately.  Until you devise a time machine to change that.  Its history. 
Didn't Pharoah say. Let it be written, let it be done?  ;)

You're right. Constantinople is history. It doesn't exist. The Roman Empire and more specifically it's eastern half doesn't exist. Time to live in the real world and give up byzantine intrigues.
Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.—Oscar Wilde

Offline Tzimis

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I'm staying out of the inter-patriarchal fighting.  However...

How is the Patriarch of Jerusalem the child of anyone?

Until it had ecumenically-recognized autocephaly, it was under real jurisdiction from Antioch, IIRC.  Jerusalem is the holy city, but it wasn't much of an ecclesial center post-sack (70 AD).
It's kind of a weird issue because on one hand you are right, but on the other hand it was a bishopric, so it is not nothing ecclesiologically, and it is called Mother of All Churches, so in a sense one would consider this bishopric to be the mother of Constantinople.

Exactly, and until the small fishing village of Byzantium was established by an Ecumenical COuncil it was a suffragan see of no import.
Unfortunately.  Until you devise a time machine to change that.  Its history. 
Didn't Pharoah say. Let it be written, let it be done?  ;)

You're right. Constantinople is history. It doesn't exist. The Roman Empire and more specifically it's eastern half doesn't exist. Time to live in the real world and give up byzantine intrigues.
Why aren't you a protestant than?

Offline platypus

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You guys crack me up.

Why are you so scared of him?

I've tried to refrain from jumping into this debate, since my Church is in communion with both Moscow and the EP. But I feel compelled to answer your question. I am a former Roman Catholic; I belonged to a Church where all the official power is in the hands of one man. When I came into faith, I studied Church history and came to the conclusion that such a setup is completely historically indefensible. I chose the Orthodox Church over the Roman almost solely over the issue of ultramontanism. I didn't really understand at that point about the fasts, the saints, traditional liturgy, or any of the other things that matter to me now.

If all this had been going on five years ago, I would not have joined the Orthodox Church. I would've looked, seen that one bishop was taking over the Church while everyone except the Russians stood passively by, and then started looking elsewhere.

I do not understand you cavalier attitude towards these events, at all.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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I'm staying out of the inter-patriarchal fighting.  However...

How is the Patriarch of Jerusalem the child of anyone?

Until it had ecumenically-recognized autocephaly, it was under real jurisdiction from Antioch, IIRC.  Jerusalem is the holy city, but it wasn't much of an ecclesial center post-sack (70 AD).
It's kind of a weird issue because on one hand you are right, but on the other hand it was a bishopric, so it is not nothing ecclesiologically, and it is called Mother of All Churches, so in a sense one would consider this bishopric to be the mother of Constantinople.

Exactly, and until the small fishing village of Byzantium was established by an Ecumenical COuncil it was a suffragan see of no import.
Unfortunately.  Until you devise a time machine to change that.  Its history. 
Didn't Pharoah say. Let it be written, let it be done?  ;)

You're right. Constantinople is history. It doesn't exist. The Roman Empire and more specifically it's eastern half doesn't exist. Time to live in the real world and give up byzantine intrigues.
Why aren't you a protestant than?

How telling.
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Offline hecma925

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...shouldn't Patriarch Theophilus be writing in Arabic or Russian given the realities on the ground in the communities of the Holy Land? ;-)
What, no Hebrew?
The EP should have responded in Turkish, if that's the case.
That would make sense. He is a Turkish citizen and resides in Turkey.

He's done his military service as well.  He speaks the language fluently.

But since that's not a tongue common between the two Patriarchs/Patriarchates, that doesn't make sense.  English and Greek do.

Ah, but he scolded a brother Patriarch for using one language over the other.  That doesn't make sense.
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Offline rakovsky

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it is called Mother of All Churches, so in a sense one would consider this bishopric to be the mother of Constantinople.

One gets into tricky territory when basing arguments on self-styled titles (and this includes "Ecumenical," FWIW), unless we're going to read Alexandria's "Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Prelate of Prelates, the Thirteenth of the Apostles and Judge of the Universe" more literally. 
It's based on practical fact. One could say that Jerusalem is younger as a Patriarchate than Constantinople, but certainly Jerusalem is older as a bishopric than Constantinople, or anyplace else for that matter, AFAIK. Christ founded His Church in Judea, and He instructed that the Word be spread first to the Jews and then to the ends of the earth. So Jerusalem and its eparchy are the de facto mother eparchy of all other eparchies, even before Constantinople became a Patriarchate.

A peasant mother can bear a warrior who becomes emperor, but she is still her mother. Jerusalem is still the ultimate parent of Constantinople as an eparchy.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 12:54:31 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Here's a full English translation of the letter...

http://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2020/01/14/patriarch-bartholomews-reply-to-patriarch-theophilos/
It begins:
Quote
Theophilos, fraternally embracing your honorable Beatitude in Christ, we address you with great delight.
Big hug and smiles!!!...????

Quote
First of all, we are unpleasantly surprised by the fact that for the first time in the long history of our two Patriarchates, the rightly-called “Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem”
Uh, why is it supposed to be called Greek Orthodox and not just Orthodox, or Eastern Orthodox? Isn't it called something like "Rum Orthodox" in Arabic, which actually means something like Roman Orthodox?!
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Offline Alpha60

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I'm staying out of the inter-patriarchal fighting.  However...

How is the Patriarch of Jerusalem the child of anyone?

Until it had ecumenically-recognized autocephaly, it was under real jurisdiction from Antioch, IIRC.  Jerusalem is the holy city, but it wasn't much of an ecclesial center post-sack (70 AD).
It's kind of a weird issue because on one hand you are right, but on the other hand it was a bishopric, so it is not nothing ecclesiologically, and it is called Mother of All Churches, so in a sense one would consider this bishopric to be the mother of Constantinople.

Exactly, and until the small fishing village of Byzantium was established by an Ecumenical COuncil it was a suffragan see of no import.

That said, surely the historical important of “Rome 2” as we might well call it owes as much to the will of Emperor Constantine as anything else.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Alpha60

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By the way, this letter did leave me dumbfounded, hence my lack of immediate reply to this thread.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Tzimis

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...shouldn't Patriarch Theophilus be writing in Arabic or Russian given the realities on the ground in the communities of the Holy Land? ;-)
What, no Hebrew?
The EP should have responded in Turkish, if that's the case.
That would make sense. He is a Turkish citizen and resides in Turkey.

He's done his military service as well.  He speaks the language fluently.

But since that's not a tongue common between the two Patriarchs/Patriarchates, that doesn't make sense.  English and Greek do.

Ah, but he scolded a brother Patriarch for using one language over the other.  That doesn't make sense.
Chances are that the Patriarch didn't actually write it. Someone in his staff heard dictated words and translated it to English. Maybe that person is out of a job now. Who knows for sure.

Offline jewish voice

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...shouldn't Patriarch Theophilus be writing in Arabic or Russian given the realities on the ground in the communities of the Holy Land? ;-)
What, no Hebrew?
The EP should have responded in Turkish, if that's the case.
That would make sense. He is a Turkish citizen and resides in Turkey.

He's done his military service as well.  He speaks the language fluently.

But since that's not a tongue common between the two Patriarchs/Patriarchates, that doesn't make sense.  English and Greek do.

Ah, but he scolded a brother Patriarch for using one language over the other.  That doesn't make sense.
Chances are that the Patriarch didn't actually write it. Someone in his staff heard dictated words and translated it to English. Maybe that person is out of a job now. Who knows for sure.
most likely right except the out of the job part

Offline LizaSymonenko

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You guys crack me up.

Why are you so scared of him?

I've tried to refrain from jumping into this debate, since my Church is in communion with both Moscow and the EP. But I feel compelled to answer your question. I am a former Roman Catholic; I belonged to a Church where all the official power is in the hands of one man. When I came into faith, I studied Church history and came to the conclusion that such a setup is completely historically indefensible. I chose the Orthodox Church over the Roman almost solely over the issue of ultramontanism. I didn't really understand at that point about the fasts, the saints, traditional liturgy, or any of the other things that matter to me now.

If all this had been going on five years ago, I would not have joined the Orthodox Church. I would've looked, seen that one bishop was taking over the Church while everyone except the Russians stood passively by, and then started looking elsewhere.

I do not understand you cavalier attitude towards these events, at all.

I'm not being cavalier at all.  I am being honest... that everyone is pointing fingers at the EP... while being blind to the games of others.

I truly welcome you to Orthodoxy... and hope you realize that the Faith has not suffered.... and it is the Faith that is common to all of us, regardless bickering of bishops.  Let them bicker, but, know the Lord is in charge... and I hope you chose Orthodoxy due to the beliefs, doctrine, dogmas, and not because of the leadership... but, because it is the True Church of Christ.

We should all know that while all these disagreements appear "bad" from the outside... it truly is not as bad as it is being made out to be.  There is nothing new here.  These are growing pains, that have occurred since the first days of the Church.

Today's issues all stem from a country that wished to have a Church independent from an enemy country, with which they are currently (and have historically for centuries) been at war with.

None of this would have happened, had the invading country simply stepped away and permitted people to have their own Church.

None of these arguments, disagreements, anger, etc... would be taking place today. 

So, who truly is to blame here?

I am not the one who is cavalier or blind or any manner of things I have been called over the last many months.

I am a person of faith... who realizes that this will all blow over one day, and the Church will remain... even if we, humans, devour each other... the Church will remain unshakable.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Luke

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Wouldn't it be nice if the leaders lived under the same rules as the lay people?  If lay people bicker in the Church, the leaders try to get them to work things out, but it is OK for the leaders to bicker.

Offline jewish voice

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Whatever side Jerusalem patriarchy is on is the side I will stand with. Jerusalem is a light unto all the nation's may she be the fairest of all fairness joyfully of all joyfulness may her name be as music to all ears and your soul leap with joy for your Lord stands in the midst of her calling all nation's to come and worship their Lord and to taste of her sweet nectar which pours out from her freely given to all.

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Offline Opus118

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Here's a full English translation of the letter... it's even more racist than the Orthodox Times let on!

http://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2020/01/14/patriarch-bartholomews-reply-to-patriarch-theophilos/
I thought it was fine, you guys are too picky.
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline rakovsky

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Here's a full English translation of the letter... it's even more racist than the Orthodox Times let on!

http://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2020/01/14/patriarch-bartholomews-reply-to-patriarch-theophilos/
I thought it was fine, you guys are too picky.
I heard from Greeks that American southern white society sometimes looked at Greek Americans as Colored. That makes the letter's emphasis on the preeminence of blood and Genos ironic.
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Offline Opus118

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Here's a full English translation of the letter... it's even more racist than the Orthodox Times let on!

http://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2020/01/14/patriarch-bartholomews-reply-to-patriarch-theophilos/
I thought it was fine, you guys are too picky.
I heard from Greeks that American southern white society sometimes looked at Greek Americans as Colored. That makes the letter's emphasis on the preeminence of blood and Genos ironic.
I read it differently. I assume they know each other fairly well. I read this as an exchange of digs/gibes; maybe friendly maybe not, with the first part reflecting that the E patriarchate as too American, the second part reflecting that the J patriarchate is too racist. Samn would know the attributes of the J patriarchate, I do not.

The thing that confuses me is that there are interviews of Patriarch Bartholomew where he discusses that he is first among equals and the EP website states that as well. Where does he explicitly claim he is first without equals?



If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline rakovsky

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The thing that confuses me is that there are interviews of Patriarch Bartholomew where he discusses that he is first among equals and the EP website states that as well. Where does he explicitly claim he is first without equals?

The Archons' website has the EP's interview where he claims "supreme authority" to deal with other churches' issues:
Quote
Ecumenical Patriarch: As mentioned above, all recognized Autocephalous Churches received their autocephaly from the Ecumenical Patriarchate, not because they were once in its jurisdiction but because the Church of Constantinople, on the basis of the Sacred Canons, has the supreme authority and the right to deal with issues of other local Churches. What is claimed, that every local Church can grant autocephaly to a territorial area within its jurisdiction is not canonically the case and such a tactic never prevailed in the practice of the Orthodox Church. Obviously it is claimed by some because they want to reduce the role of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. This, however, does not express ecclesiastical reality. The Patriarchate of Georgia, for example, has never been in our jurisdiction. But from Constantinople it received autocephaly and patriarchal status.
https://www.archons.org/-/politika-interview
When the interviewer objects that a canon requires a bishop to act in consent with other bishops, the EP counters that this restriction only applies to internal affairs of local churches. Then he claims that he does not act unilaterally because he cooperates with his own synod. The EP's implication is that he can act without the consent of other primates in deciding the other churches' fates:
Quote
Interviewer: ...As we have learned from leading theologians of Constantinople, primacy does not presuppose the structure of a pyramid in the Church, but the agreement of one with the many, according to the 34th Canon of the Holy Apostles, which says that the first does nothing without the consent of the many.

Ecumenical Patriarch: ...Certainly, we also take into account the 34th Canon of the Holy Apostles, but this rule refers to the bishops of each nation, who should recognize their head as their head and do nothing without consulting him, and correspondingly, the first bishop should not act without consulting his bishops. This Canon attempts to ensure unity and harmony in the local Church. It is not a Canon concerning the relations of the local Churches, but the internal governance of a local Church. Therefore, it does not refer to the relationship of the Ecumenical Patriarch with the other Churches.
...
The Ecumenical Patriarch does not operate unilaterally and of his own will, but cooperates and co-decides with the Holy and Sacred Synod. But it is a fact that the Ecumenical Councils have given responsibilities and obligations to the Church of Constantinople that the other Churches do not have. ... I love the Slavs and appreciate their devotion and their faith. But that some of them do not accept the lead of the Mother Church; that is a fact.
https://www.archons.org/-/politika-interview

The EP's website has the declaration by the the GOA's hierarch, Abp. Elpidophoros, "First without equals: A response to the text on primacy of the Moscow Patriarchate", in which he asserts that the EP has the universal jurisdiction over the whole Church that he claims the Pope of Rome held in medieval times, and he asserts that the EP consequently is "First Without Equals":
Quote
In the long history of the Church, the presiding hierarch of the universal Church was the bishop of Rome. After Eucharistic communion with Rome was broken, canonically the presiding hierarch of the Orthodox Church is the archbishop of Constantinople. In the case of the archbishop of Constantinople, we observe the unique concomitance of all three levels of primacy, namely the local (as Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome), the regional (as Patriarch), and the universal or worldwide (as Ecumenical Patriarch). This threefold primacy translates into specific privileges, such as the right of appeal and the right to grant or remove autocephaly (examples of the latter are the Archdioceses-Patriarchates of Ochrid, Pec and Turnavo, etc.), a privilege that the Ecumenical Patriarch exercised even in cases of some modern Patriarchates, not yet validated by decisions of the Ecumenical Councils, the first of which is that of Moscow.
...
If we are going to talk about the source of a primacy, then the source of such primacy is the very person of the Archbishop of Constantinople, who precisely as bishop is one "among equals," but as Archbishop of Constantinople, and thus as Ecumenical Patriarch is the first without equals (primus sine paribus).

SOURCE: https://www.patriarchate.org/-/primus-sine-paribus-hapantesis-eis-to-peri-proteiou-keimenon-tou-patriarcheiou-moschas-tou-sebasmiotatou-metropolitou-prouses-k-elpidophorou
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 01:48:23 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline platypus

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Today's issues all stem from a country that wished to have a Church independent from an enemy country, with which they are currently (and have historically for centuries) been at war with.

And this is the difference in how we think. I love my own country, and I understand the desire to have a church free from foreign rule. But, for me, the Orthodox faith is infinitely more important. If a bishop teaches things contrary to the orthodox faith (say, pseudo-ultramontanism), this is far more serious to me than issues of patriotism.

I am a person of faith... who realizes that this will all blow over one day, and the Church will remain... even if we, humans, devour each other... the Church will remain unshakable.

On this, we can agree.
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Offline rakovsky

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Today's issues all stem from a country that wished to have a Church independent from an enemy country, with which they are currently been at war with.

And this is the difference in how we think.
Platypus,
The statement to which you are responding is misleading or incorrect on two counts:
First, probably most of Ukraine - Catholics, Protestants, and all self-identified Orthodox - wants their Church independent of the MP, similar to how most of America and England wants their Church to be independent of Rome. This of course does not mean that canonical Orthodox want their Church to be independent of the MP, just as it doesn't mean that most American Catholics wish independence from Rome.

Second, certainly "Today's issues" do not all stem from Ukraine's relations with Russia. The EP's claim to supremacy over the Church is a separate issue, with the EP's interference in Ukraine serving as only a major example of this problem. The EP himself announced in his interview that the EP's granting of autocephaly to Georgia is a separate proof of the EP's supremacy over the Church.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 05:47:46 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline isxodnik

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"Liza, what do you say about the EP's ethnophyletism?"
"Russia has invaded Ukraine!"

"Liza, what do you say about war criminals who even the SS thought were scumbags?"
"I am a person of faith!"
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 08:38:35 PM by isxodnik »
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline Fr. George

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Here's a full English translation of the letter... it's even more racist than the Orthodox Times let on!

http://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2020/01/14/patriarch-bartholomews-reply-to-patriarch-theophilos/
I thought it was fine, you guys are too picky.
I heard from Greeks that American southern white society sometimes looked at Greek Americans as Colored.

Not "sometimes."  Depending on the decade, "most of the time."  Targeted by the KKK, etc.

That makes the letter's emphasis on the preeminence of blood and Genos ironic.

Anyone that emphasizes "blood" as a marker for Hellenism isn't taking into account... well... 2,500+ years of Hellenism (before the 18th century).
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, & godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope & glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed & purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.  Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. (Titus 2:11-15)

Offline Ainnir

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"Liza, what do you say about the EP's ethnophyletism?"
"Russia has invaded Ukraine!"

"Liza, what do you say about war criminals who even the SS thought were scumbags?"
"I am a person of faith!"
Knock it off, isxodnik.  This mimicry is too polemical.  Thanks.  --Ainnir
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a wretched sinner.

Jacob wrestled with God all through the night.  At the break of day, he became Israel.

Offline isxodnik

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You think I misrepresented the meaning?
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline rakovsky

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Ixodnik, I am not a moderator, so my words don't carry any moderator weight here, and I'm definitely not trying to act as a moderator, but I like you and you maybe don't know the rules of the forum, and I don't want you to have problems, so I am letting you know that you can't argue with moderators in the threads. TRANSLATION:
Исходник, Вы мне нравитесь, и возможно не знаете правилы форума, так что желаю Вам осведомить, что запрещено ссориться с модераторами публично на форуме, а можете только по личному сообщению.

To the moderators: I am just trying to be helpful to Iskhodnik and not trying to take over your roles. There have been times over the years that I didn't know a rule that I was breaking. Thanks for understanding.
Peace.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 09:44:22 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline isxodnik

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We're making a big deal out of it, but thank you for your concern ))
- Вы говорите, они вам угрожали?
- Да, сказали "сюда иди".
- Ну, "иди сюда" - это не угроза.
- "Иди сюда" - нет, а "сюда иди" - очень даже.

Offline Ainnir

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We're making a big deal out of it, but thank you for your concern ))
Yes, we are--because repeatedly disrespecting the rules of a given place, organization, or group is a big deal, and should not go unconsequenced.  I've reviewed your history here, and you've been told repeatedly to read the rules, and have repeatedly ignored, rejected, or argued those rules and received warnings for it at least 3 times.  You are receiving 30%, and future infractions of this kind will receive an additional 10% each time, if I am the one who sees it.  You may appeal this decision via PM.

Thanks.  --Ainnir
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a wretched sinner.

Jacob wrestled with God all through the night.  At the break of day, he became Israel.

Offline Ainnir

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To the moderators: I am just trying to be helpful to Iskhodnik and not trying to take over your roles. There have been times over the years that I didn't know a rule that I was breaking. Thanks for understanding.
Peace.

rakovsky, I understand where you're coming from; I'm not unfamiliar with unwittingly bumping into rules.  That is not what's going on here.  Regardless, if you feel moved to intercede in the future, please do so via PM.  Otherwise, I will need to give you points as well.

To everyone else: keep the tone discussion-level, or open a spin-off thread elsewhere.  Thread unlocked.

Thanks.  --Ainnir
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

Pray for me, a wretched sinner.

Jacob wrestled with God all through the night.  At the break of day, he became Israel.

Offline rakovsky

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That is a good idea about interceding via PM.
It is nice writing with you and hearing from you on the forum.
Peace.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Looks like the Poles aren't showing up either, yet their reasoning seem acceptable.

https://orthochristian.com/127361.html?fbclid=IwAR30i2gw_-x2uSqWtswGlI17zLIpwYiiAUE51Lpk-pSaKyaFxQHiUkMiqZw

Offline ialmisry

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Any further news?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Samn!

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Any further news?

Patriarchs attending: Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia.
Sending delegations: Romania, Poland.
Probably attending: Czechs.

Not attending: Constantinople, Alexandria, Georgia, Cyprus, Greece, Albania.
Probably not attending: Antioch, Bulgaria.

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Patriarchs attending: Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia.
Sending delegations: Romania, Poland.
Probably attending: Czechs.

Not attending: Constantinople, Alexandria, Georgia, Cyprus, Greece, Albania.
Probably not attending: Antioch, Bulgaria.

Here is the link to the official statement posted today: https://bg-patriarshia.bg/news.php?id=313841
Also the Russian language site Credo also posted it: https://credo.press/229309/
2020 2 21
Quote
"In connection with the letter received from His Beatitude of Jerusalem Patriarch Theophil III in which he sent an invitation to take part in the fraternal meeting of the Primates of the Local Orthodox Churches and their delegations in Amman, Jordan, the Holy Synod of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church - the Bulgarian Patriarchate announces that it is refraining from participation in the aforementioned meeting and, accordingly, will not send representatives to Amman, the capital of Jordan. " Such an announcement was posted on February 21 by the Office of the Bulgarian Patriarchate on its official website.


Quotes fixed.  --Ainnir
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 09:04:41 PM by Ainnir »

Offline ialmisry

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Sometimes children need to be chastised.

It is funny how nobody had any issues with the MP, when he boycotted an ecumenical council, which he had previously agreed to attend.

These politics are not one-sided.  Open your eyes.

How is the Patriarch of Jerusalem the child of anyone? And how should using English merit being chastised? And you really don't have a problem with aggressive racism, it seems. Wow.
Would the president of a county use a foreign language to communicate with there staff?

~95% of the Jerusalem Patriarchate's members are Arabs. Why is their hierarchy using Greek to begin with?
A couple of reasons. The Patriarchate was reestablished by the Greeks and the three major churches were built and established by them as well.
Wrong. Wrong. And wrong.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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They have to be sometime right? why not Greek speaking?

Because a priest who won't speak anything but Greek in a country with no Greeks is about as useful as a bicycle is to a fish.

The Ecumenical Patriarch is even more useful than you realize.
Useful for whom? and for what?
His All Holiness displayed his uselessness enough in the issue between Antioch and Jerusalem over the latter's uncanonical incursion into the canonical territory of the former.
By the way... if we are arguing use or non-use of Greek... why did he write it in English... as honestly most of his faithful do not use English as their day-to-day language.  Why not use Arabic?  Why English?  Hmmm....

Explain that one, please.
so even the Ukrainicans and their CIA overlords could read it.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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...shouldn't Patriarch Theophilus be writing in Arabic or Russian given the realities on the ground in the communities of the Holy Land? ;-)

What, no Hebrew?
No Hebrew. Why should there be?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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I'm staying out of the inter-patriarchal fighting.  However...

How is the Patriarch of Jerusalem the child of anyone?

Until it had ecumenically-recognized autocephaly, it was under real jurisdiction from Antioch, IIRC.  Jerusalem is the holy city, but it wasn't much of an ecclesial center post-sack (70 AD).
It's kind of a weird issue because on one hand you are right, but on the other hand it was a bishopric, so it is not nothing ecclesiologically, and it is called Mother of All Churches, so in a sense one would consider this bishopric to be the mother of Constantinople.

Exactly, and until the small fishing village of Byzantium was established by an Ecumenical COuncil it was a suffragan see of no import.
Unfortunately.  Until you devise a time machine to change that.  Its history. 
Didn't Pharoah say. Let it be written, let it be done?  ;)
No time machine needed. Unless you want to undo 1454.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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I'm staying out of the inter-patriarchal fighting.  However...

How is the Patriarch of Jerusalem the child of anyone?

Until it had ecumenically-recognized autocephaly, it was under real jurisdiction from Antioch, IIRC.  Jerusalem is the holy city, but it wasn't much of an ecclesial center post-sack (70 AD).
It's kind of a weird issue because on one hand you are right, but on the other hand it was a bishopric, so it is not nothing ecclesiologically, and it is called Mother of All Churches, so in a sense one would consider this bishopric to be the mother of Constantinople.

Exactly, and until the small fishing village of Byzantium was established by an Ecumenical COuncil it was a suffragan see of no import.
Unfortunately.  Until you devise a time machine to change that.  Its history. 
Didn't Pharoah say. Let it be written, let it be done?  ;)

You're right. Constantinople is history. It doesn't exist. The Roman Empire and more specifically it's eastern half doesn't exist. Time to live in the real world and give up byzantine intrigues.
Why aren't you a protestant than?
You're the one practicing Erastianism.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth