Author Topic: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU  (Read 2079 times)

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Offline Saxon

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Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« on: November 08, 2019, 10:21:18 AM »
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Today, November 8, Patriarch of Alexandria and all Africa Theodore II mentioned the name of Metropolitan Epiphany of Kyiv and all Ukraine and called him the Primate of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. It occurred during the Divine Liturgy on the day of the Archangel Michael (according to the New Style) in the Archangel Michael Cathedral in the capital of Egypt.

Two sources have confirmed the reliability of the aforementioned. An official announcement is expected later. This was informed via Facebook by Archbishop Evstratiy (Zoria), a spokesman of the OCU.

Thus, the Patriarchate of Alexandria has joined the Churches recognizing the autocephaly of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. The Church of Alexandria holds second place after the Ecumenical Patriarchate in diptychs.

Source: https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/orthodox_world/77728/
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 10:27:41 AM by Saxon »

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2019, 11:20:21 AM »
Lord, have mercy.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no idea, so there’s that.

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Offline Saxon

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2019, 11:44:59 AM »
Unfortunately, more Hellenistic racial solidarity.

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2019, 12:34:38 PM »
Pope Tawadros II has a cooler hat anyway.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2019, 02:15:44 PM »
I think the Alexandrian patriarch is not happy about it, based on the articles on his positions on the Orthochristian website. Supposedly the Greek state was going to withhold funding if he didn't.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 02:17:35 PM »
Wait a minute, the Coptic and EO Patriarchs of Alexandria are Tawadros (Theodore) II and Theodoros II, respectively? How did that happen? Pure coincidence?
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 02:28:12 PM »
Wait a minute, the Coptic and EO Patriarchs of Alexandria are Tawadros (Theodore) II and Theodoros II, respectively? How did that happen? Pure coincidence?

Yes and it has been discussed at least a few times, especially after the election of the pope Theodore II after the death of pope Shenouda.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2019, 02:49:06 PM »
I kind of remember that.
What conclusion or guesses came from the discussions?
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2019, 02:52:56 PM »
Quite sad, Patriarch Theodore was with Metropolitan Onuphry not so long ago supporting the canonical orthodox church. Certainly the greek government is behind this.

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2019, 03:20:40 PM »
So I guess he lied to Metropolitan Onufriy back when he visited.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2019, 03:33:24 PM »
Pope Tawadros II has a cooler hat anyway.

Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2019, 04:25:21 PM »
He looked like a broken man.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2019, 05:20:12 PM »
You can only imagine what kind of pressure would have to be put on him to reverse coursely strongly on a major issue that he feels strongly about.

Cutting Greek government funding for the Patriarchate might have really just been the first step, as he would be able to foresee. 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 05:20:49 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2019, 06:07:00 PM »
Will Jerusalem be next to fall?
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2019, 06:07:34 PM »
Lord have mercy.  One more name struck from the MP's diptychs.   :(

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2019, 06:11:55 PM »
Will Jerusalem be next to fall?

That's a good guess.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2019, 06:13:29 PM »
Will Jerusalem be next to fall?
I would guess so. Whoever is more susceptible to geopolitical pressure. Maybe Cyprus and Albania. Albania seemed to gave made its position clear, but the way things are going, what more would be a surprise?
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2019, 06:15:15 PM »
Alexandria had been calling for a council on this issue.
You can only imagine what kind of pressure was applied.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 06:15:25 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2019, 06:18:13 PM »
These recognitions of the OCU have been going like theatre, not something organically rising from the canonical laity and clergy in general.

It's like you can only sit back and watch the leaders do what they want.... or rather what they are told to do by other parties. Who knows if even the EP himself really wanted to go down this path to begin with.
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2019, 06:27:22 PM »
Lord have mercy.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2019, 06:35:34 PM »
It's a messed up situation, because he feels pressured into doing the opposite of what he believes is canonically correct. Fear must be a factor for him, a fear of what might happen if he goes against the pressure. He must secretly hope for some intervention or change of circumstances that would prevent him from taking the course that he feels pressured into doing.

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2019, 06:47:45 PM »
It's a messed up situation, because he feels pressured into doing the opposite of what he believes is canonically correct. Fear must be a factor for him, a fear of what might happen if he goes against the pressure. He must secretly hope for some intervention or change of circumstances that would prevent him from taking the course that he feels pressured into doing.

U.S. Intelligence and Dem party, the EU, & the Vatican are all pushing hard for the OCU.  No doubt they're all experts on how and where to apply pressure.  They all hate Russia and MP with a passion.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 06:49:29 PM by PorphyriosK »
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Offline isxodnik

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2019, 08:08:06 PM »
An official announcement is expected later.

Quote
Theodore, by the grace of God Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and all Africa

Protocol number 115/2019

To the most Reverend and most Reverend Bishops of our Holy Apostolic See of St. Mark

Beloved Holy Bishops,

After all that with positive result we discussed and personally with each of you, and after Mature reflection and multiple prayers, calling inspiration of the Comforter of the Holy spirit, and caring for the unity of the Orthodox Church, we came to the decision to recognize the Autocephaly of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine and its Primate, his Beatitude K. K. Epiphany, because the time has come.

Quote
I have served the Church for so many years and I know that from today, by the grace of God, the solution of this great issue for our Church will begin. Harmony, love and hope will arise between us. Through our efforts, through our attempts, we will see Christ tell us that he is in our midst.
https://diak-kuraev.livejournal.com/2628340.html
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 08:08:36 PM by isxodnik »
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2019, 08:26:31 PM »
He looked like a broken man.

Who?  When?
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Offline Saxon

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2019, 09:09:52 PM »
The EP and everything it has done on this issue is so repulsive it defies belief.  I’m embarrassed my own jurisdiction is still in communion with them.

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2019, 10:17:23 PM »
He looked like a broken man.

Who?  When?

Patriarch Theodoros when he was explaining why he did it. The Greek minister was just smirking at him while he looked sad and broken.
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2019, 10:31:16 PM »
Maybe the upside of this will be that the MP will be able to enter union with the OO.
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Offline isxodnik

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2019, 10:32:29 PM »
God forbid.
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2019, 11:39:20 PM »
He looked like a broken man.

Who?  When?

Patriarch Theodoros when he was explaining why he did it. The Greek minister was just smirking at him while he looked sad and broken.

Link?
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2019, 11:49:07 PM »
Maybe the upside of this will be that the MP will be able to enter union with the OO.

One reason these developments in Eastern Orthodoxy disturb me is precisely because the embrace by some Churches of the underlying principles by which the EP proclaimed Ukrainian autocephaly represents the creation of a difference in faith.  We should be drawing closer on the basis of a common faith, not creating differences to keep us divided.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2019, 12:15:07 AM »
Link?
I think he means this photo:

He doesn't look particularly joyful. He looks pale, and in my impression, somber. The gentleman to his right in the tie is the Greek ambassador.

In contrast, here is his photo in an article from a year ago, October 2018 when he was visiting a parish in Ukraine:
Quote

Continuing his fraternal visit to the canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine, His Beatitude Patriarch Theodoros II of Alexandria and All Africa concelebrated the Great Consecration of the rebuilt Holy Transfiguration Cathedral in Bolgrad with His Beatitude Metropolitan Onuphry of Kiev and All Ukraine.

The Alexandrian primate again offered words of support and consolation to the Ukrainian faithful, as he had during the services he celebrated in Odessa, noting that he came to Ukraine to bear witness to his love and to the fact that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate is the only canonical Church in Ukraine, reports the site of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

“Here I lived and shed tears for this country,” the patriarch said. “I have come here to say that I am always with you.”
https://orthochristian.com/116202.html
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 12:15:25 AM by rakovsky »
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2019, 12:21:57 AM »
Maybe the upside of this will be that the MP will be able to enter union with the OO.

One reason these developments in Eastern Orthodoxy disturb me is precisely because the embrace by some Churches of the underlying principles by which the EP proclaimed Ukrainian autocephaly represents the creation of a difference in faith.  We should be drawing closer on the basis of a common faith, not creating differences to keep us divided.
Is a major, important ecclesiological difference, like claiming that the Patriarch of Constantinople is like a medieval Pope who can hear appeals against sister Churches, a difference of "faith"?

I agree that this kind of issue would be a major one creating and deepening divisions, Mor. IMO, Papal Supremacy is the biggest practical obstacle to RC-Orthodox reunion, because it doesn't allow the two Churches in practice to "Agree to Disagree" about anything that the Pope wants to impose his position on. In the EP's new ecclesiology, the Pope of Rome would have the right to arbitrarily and unilaterally decide appeals against Constantinople, or Alexandria. Perhaps a priest in Constantinople could appeal against the EP that he (the priest) got defrocked for persistently putting the filioque in the Creed, for instance.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 12:23:11 AM by rakovsky »
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2019, 12:31:22 AM »
Maybe the upside of this will be that the MP will be able to enter union with the OO.

One reason these developments in Eastern Orthodoxy disturb me is precisely because the embrace by some Churches of the underlying principles by which the EP proclaimed Ukrainian autocephaly represents the creation of a difference in faith.  We should be drawing closer on the basis of a common faith, not creating differences to keep us divided.
Is a major, important ecclesiological difference, like claiming that the Patriarch of Constantinople is like a medieval Pope who can hear appeals against sister Churches, a difference of "faith"?

When the current GOARCH Archbishop said that the EP was "first without equals," he created a difference in faith.  The EP has created differences in faith in granting the Tomos of Autocephaly to the OCU.  Greece and Alexandria have followed the EP in this new ecclesiology.  The MP counters by not reading their names at the diptychs; however, these little schisms are building and building.

I agree that this kind of issue would be a major one creating and deepening divisions, Mor. IMO, Papal Supremacy is the biggest practical obstacle to RC-Orthodox reunion, because it doesn't allow the two Churches in practice to "Agree to Disagree" about anything that the Pope wants to impose his position on. In the EP's new ecclesiology, the Pope of Rome would have the right to arbitrarily and unilaterally decide appeals against Constantinople, or Alexandria. Perhaps a priest in Constantinople could appeal against the EP that he (the priest) got defrocked for persistently putting the filioque in the Creed, for instance.

I think the EP's new ecclesiology makes it easier to reunite with Rome.  The elderly Archons don't care since they have one foot in the grave and the younger Archons wait for the day when their non-Orthodox wives can receive communion in an Orthodox church (or the Archons can receive communion in a RC church, if they aren't doing so already).

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2019, 12:55:34 AM »
Right, the EP is making it easier for the EP to reunite because he is teaching the medieval version of papacy supremacy.
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2019, 05:58:49 AM »
Quote
I have come here to tell you: Remain in the Orthodox faith, in the canonical Church. The apostle Peter saw the tunic of Christ torn in the first century. This tunic was bloodstained for many years, and we must carry this tunic in our hearts. There have been very difficult times in the history of our Church. In these difficult days in Ukraine there is a canonical Church, headed by His Beatitude Metropolitan Onuphry—a blessed man of God and a true monk.

Theodoros of Alexandria, 2018

Quote
Well, what had happened was...

Theodoros of Alexandria, 2019
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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2019, 02:37:58 PM »
Maybe the upside of this will be that the MP will be able to enter union with the OO.

One reason these developments in Eastern Orthodoxy disturb me is precisely because the embrace by some Churches of the underlying principles by which the EP proclaimed Ukrainian autocephaly represents the creation of a difference in faith.  We should be drawing closer on the basis of a common faith, not creating differences to keep us divided.
Amen and amen.
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Offline platypus

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2019, 02:46:22 PM »
Wait a minute, the Coptic and EO Patriarchs of Alexandria are Tawadros (Theodore) II and Theodoros II, respectively? How did that happen? Pure coincidence?

Yes and it has been discussed at least a few times, especially after the election of the pope Theodore II after the death of pope Shenouda.

They will soon merge into one man, ending the Chalcedonian schism.
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Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. -Ecclesiastes 12:8

Offline hecma925

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2019, 09:16:58 PM »
The EP and everything it has done on this issue is so repulsive it defies belief.  I’m embarrassed my own jurisdiction is still in communion with them.

Why embarrassed?  Most of the Churches are still in communion with all.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Santo Chavez

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2019, 09:54:22 PM »
Lord, have mercy.

Sorry to hear that the Patriarch with a magnificent voice buckled out at the last minute in a time of great trial in the Church.

I remember watching all of them videos on the OrthodoxChurch channel on YouTube; the man looked like a great leader; really sorry to hear this.

"Who is next to fall?", I ask myself.

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2019, 01:47:13 PM »
If I'm remembering correctly, Constantinople threw a hissy fit for 70+ years over Bulgaria restoring its autocephaly [yet again]. Constantinople has lost most of what it had to lose, Moscow's just getting started on a similar process I'm guessing. A few months or years or decades and everyone will be talking about 'how good it is for brethren to dwell together in unity...'

...and God knows once Africa gets going on all of this, then it'll be Alexandria's turn! ;-)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 01:49:00 PM by kijabeboy03 »

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2019, 09:35:41 PM »
Maybe the upside of this will be that the MP will be able to enter union with the OO.

One reason these developments in Eastern Orthodoxy disturb me is precisely because the embrace by some Churches of the underlying principles by which the EP proclaimed Ukrainian autocephaly represents the creation of a difference in faith.  We should be drawing closer on the basis of a common faith, not creating differences to keep us divided.

Indeed.  By the way, I don’t see an EO-OO upside to this since His Beatitude Pope Theodore II has a very close relationship to His Holiness Pope Theodore II, and the ecumenical relations of the two churches have been good.  In the extreme disaster of every EO church siding with the EP or the MP and breaking off communion with the others, this would throw a spanner into the works of EO-OO reunification, because now you have three communions rather than two, and there are people in both EO groupings who are anti-OO.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2019, 01:55:46 AM »
Right.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2019, 01:34:16 PM »
Henry Kissinger said this about how to deal with greeks, apparently his plans are working.

Quote
“The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason, we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform.
I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.
Henry Kissinger, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974, (as reported in Oikonomikos Tachydromos, Aug 14, 1997)”
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 01:34:30 PM by juliogb »

Offline kijabeboy03

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Re: Patriarch of Alexandria Recognizes OCU
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2019, 01:32:13 PM »
What was the newspaper's source for that? He sounds like a cartoon villain, and it sure makes Greece out to be far more important than it actually is in this day and age...

Henry Kissinger said this about how to deal with greeks, apparently his plans are working.

Quote
“The Greek people are anarchic and difficult to tame. For this reason, we must strike deep into their cultural roots: Perhaps then we can force them to conform.
I mean, of course, to strike at their language, their religion, their cultural and historical reserves, so that we can neutralize their ability to develop, to distinguish themselves, or to prevail; thereby removing them as an obstacle to our strategically vital plans in the Balkans, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East.
Henry Kissinger, while addressing a group of Washington, D.C. businessmen in Sept.1974, (as reported in Oikonomikos Tachydromos, Aug 14, 1997)”

Offline rakovsky

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The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20