Author Topic: The TLM returns to a New York Parish: New Liturgical Movement Article.  (Read 716 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Xavier

  • Slave of Love consecrated to the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 870
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Full Re-Union come!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: The Pope - but my heart is for Re-Union!
When the TLM was more widely restored by H.H. Pope Benedict XVI, H.H. Patriarch Alexei II of Moscow was one of the first to courageously support it and commend it, against the voices of even some liberal Catholic hierarchs who, to their shame, opposed it. ""We strongly adhere to Tradition," Patriarch Alexei said in an August interview with the Italian newspaper Il Giornale "The recovery and honoring of an ancient liturgical Tradition is a development that we can welcome." Catholic Culture Report

The Traditional Latin Mass is extremely attractive to Catholic youth of today, quite contrary to the predictions of some liberals that the TLM is all about the Western Church's past, and not Her future. Do you think the Traditional Mass will be the future once again of the Western Church, seeing the trend? Fr. Donald Kloster over at Liturgy guy has this summary, "Really, when I began to say the TLM I thought it was just for the good of my priestly spirituality. I never thought the TLM would catch on again in any wider scope; ever.

This past year, I have been doing a National Study on the TLM only parishes in the USA. Currently, there are around 70 of these but they are exploding in numbers with each passing year because the TLM priestly vocations are outpacing Novus Ordo priestly vocations by more than 7 to 1. My preliminary numbers are exceeding my initial expectations.

There is a huge wave transforming the Catholic landscape and it is largely being ignored by the Catholic leadership." Vocations Foundations:

Below article from the wonderful Priests and Scholars at New Liturgical Movement: NLM Article: TLM Returns

"The TLM Returns to a New York Parish

On Monday, February 11th, the feast of Our Lady of Lourdes, the parish of Notre Dame in New Hyde Park, New York, held its first Solemn High Mass since the Second Vatican Council. The church was filled for the celebration of its patronal feast day (on the property, there is a grotto to Our Lady of Lourdes dedicated by the then-Monsignor Fulton Sheen), which was also the 60th anniversary of its dedication. The new pastor, Fr Joseph Scolaro, ordained only five years, writes to say that he has found a very positive response to the reintroduction of many traditional practices of the faith. While there were some requests for the Mass on the part of parishioners, he thought exposure to the usus antiquior would be an opportunity for the entire parish to grow in a greater awareness of the rich tradition of the Church. Many attended for the first time and found it to be a beautiful experience. He was assisted at the Mass by the canons from a nearby parish. (Photos courtesy of Nick Castelli.)

Once again, we are also very much encouraged to see that it is predominantly the young who are taking responsibility for keeping this tradition alive, and sharing it with their fellow Catholics - feliciter! ... (please see the link for more).





« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 03:27:09 AM by Xavier »
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the adoration ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Wonderful!

I prefer the Tridentine Mass far above even traditional Novus Ordo Masses.

To be honest, the way I've been thinking as of recently is that the best possible outcome is that such movements like the Tridentine Mass or the Anglican Ordinariate - while becoming more popular - ought to be seriously influential on how the Novus Ordo Mass is to be practiced, such that there is greater continuity - it's something I agree with Pope Benedict XVI whole heartedly. Until we have a Pope who has the personality of Jude Law, except not as much as of a caricature who claims to be God incarnate -

I think we are stuck with the Novus Ordo Mass for a long while, and by no means can these movements ever cause the Novus Ordo Mass to be replaced.

This is due to several facts.

1. As I've pointed out on the other forum - I would say that at least 70% of people in Western Europe and America are only Catholic because they have a certain ethnic ancestry, and that they don't care about the struggle of learning Latin or doing something that is already unfamiliar to them - they will just do whatever is currently mainstream just to have a ritualistic norm, and never budge for them. To these individuals, Catholicism is "pick and choose," where it's just a cultural construct that can be subjectively interpreted to however people want. This is the number one permanent obstacle to a restoration of Tradition, because any change will cause outcry to these people who want to do whatever is the easiest and takes the least effort to be a Catholic.

2. Movements like the New Ways ministry and the Charismatic movement will consistently do everything they can to wage war against Tradition - the latter which has been endorsed by pretty much every Pope, Paul VI onward maybe except Benedict.

3. The fact that Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II, the former needs no explanation as he was hostile towards Gregorian Chant and felt that it should be replaced, the latter who permitted all sorts of awkward and weird, non-traditional and radical Masses, are Saints - pretty much prevent the Tridentine Mass or the Anglican Ordinariate from ever reaching their true potential.

4. The Baby Boomers and "hip and down with the cool kids" Bishops, Priests, and Cardinals are still active and will do everything they can to defend the poison they've infected into the Roman Church.


Honestly, after having been exposed to the Oriental Rites (that is, the Coptic Rite) and my study of Ancient Church history I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the text of the Novus Ordo or some (not all) of the innovations of the Mass of Pope Paul VI; for instance, having the laity do the readings, present the gifts, or Communion in the Hand.

I'm personally against versus popularum simply because it inherently shifts the focus away from God and takes away the solemness of the Mass, and while I think that some of the Novus Ordo music - like the Celtic Alleluia - can be rendered in a beautiful manner, there's cringe-worthy music like "We are the Church" or "Lord of the Dance," and I think that Gregorian Chant or Anglican Chant or any form of traditional Western chant ought to have a more prominent role in the Catholic Mass.

Something like this is what I have in mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONAX9JAbWWk

Or better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPaShDCcWlo\

(Anglican Ordinariate)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VkfON4DAh4

While Latin is beautiful and is an intrinsic part of the Mass, there was at least a pragmatic logic as to why Latin was the norm in the Roman Church before the Gothic period - it was centered in Western Europe with a variety of unorganized, Latin based languages that most of those people could pick up and understand what was going on, as Latin connected everyone. But now that the Roman Church has a universal level and is accessible in all languages, including non-Romance based languages, I don't see how Latin is so important such that it's impossible that the native tongue can't sound beautiful.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 02:13:07 PM by Eamonomae »
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Also, I hope that non-Catholic, traditional Western Rites can spread and become more popular - and this includes High Church Lutheranism and Anglicanism as well as Western Rite Orthodox - can spread all the more rapidly and give more role models for Catholics to follow, as these non-Catholic Christian denominations won't go away any time soon, so it's better they are more helpful in influencing Catholic praxis than harmful.

Saint Patrick's Orthodox Church

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixor3GA8obk

High Church Lutheran Mass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-_32SuVOSI
« Last Edit: June 13, 2019, 02:28:44 PM by Eamonomae »
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Also, bring back the incense.
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline Svartzorn

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 743
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: ?
Well, good for catholics.
I've seen some stuff from those charismatics and neocatechumens and it made my skin crawl.
I went to some catholic masses when I was a kid and things were different. A catholic friend once took me to one of his parishes on the occasion of the festivities of St. John (it tends to be a big thing where I live). We just spent our time talking outside where there were stands selling a variety of foods. Normal 'till then.
Then I started hearing the "service" from within the parish. I don't mean to be disrespectful but they sounded like a bunch of hippies. Specially considering the fact that I had already experience with orthodox services, the whole thing just sounded alien, lacking any kind reverence.
Just streghtened my conviction that I did the right thing by leaving catholicism for orthodoxy.
There seems to be a bunch of very traditional groups within catholicism, but they seem to be very scattered and low in numbers. From the outside, it really looks very chaotic, specially with the ones that take cheap shots on orthodoxy (mostly by saying the Moscow Patriarchate is a globalist instrument of the KGB).
For what? Arresting me for what? I'm not allowed to stand up for myself? I thought this was America! Huh? Isn't this America? I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,502
  • even as to rule over them is the only liberty
  • Faith: Catholic, Carmelite
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Raleigh
Not to be Captain Obvious, but there was nothing but the Latin Mass when Vatican II happened, so merely promoting it again may not do much to clear out the rubble.
Wishing to grant pardon for ancient debts, he who cancels the debts of all people came himself and dwelt among those who were estranged from his divine grace; and tearing apart the record of sin, he hears from everyone: Alleluia.

Offline PorphyriosK

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 740
Not to be Captain Obvious, but there was nothing but the Latin Mass when Vatican II happened, so merely promoting it again may not do much to clear out the rubble.


Offline Katechon

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 27
  • Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Not to be Captain Obvious, but there was nothing but the Latin Mass when Vatican II happened, so merely promoting it again may not do much to clear out the rubble.

Well, it is an implicit break with the authoritaristic epistemology that stood behind the reform of the liturgy.
Perhaps that's the reason why the establishment hates it.
Although most Tradcats are painfully unaware of this fact.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,936
  • OCNet Systems and Network Operations
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Not to be Captain Obvious, but there was nothing but the Latin Mass when Vatican II happened, so merely promoting it again may not do much to clear out the rubble.

Actually, this is a gross over-simplification.  The Roman Rite mass had been in a process of steady decay since the Council of Trent declared war on the Rood Screen at the suggestion of the friars, and enforced a standardized use which replaced most of the ancient cathedral uses of Europe, even the majority of those which had 200 years or more of attestation.  The Breviary had been in decline since before the Great Schism, due to priests privatizing the Divine Office and removing it from parish life, even from monastic life (somewhat) in the case of the Carthusians.  The Anglicans, while wrecking most everything else, managed to accomplish something amazing by revitalizing the Divine Office and until the mid 20th century, Mattins, Litany, the damaged-but-not-beyond-repair (see St. Tikhon) Holy Communion liturgy and Evensong, and in some places Prime and Compline, formed a routine part of parish life.  Pope Pius X tried to fix things, and some of his reforms were good, but his attempt at improving the Roman Breviary was not entirely successful; Pope Pius XII caused catastrophic damage with sweeping changes to the Paschal Triduum.  Vatican II continued the trend by authorizing more sweeping changes, like suppressing Prime, which is an act of pure liturgical stupidity, and then Cardinal Bugnini and his secretive cabal of liturgical radicals brought forth the Pauline Missal.

Many diocesan Latin Mass parishes are making good efforts to reverse some of this damage; for example, while the SSPX is stalwart in using the Pius XII Triduum, many Latin Mass communities now have gone back to the ancient Triduum, which has commonalities, such as the specific wording of the Mass of the Presanctified, and the large number of Old Testament lessons used on Holy Saturday in the morning, with the Byzantine Rite and Armenian Rite, which in turn connect it with all of the other liturgies of the East.

More work is needed; ROCOR in my opinion was doing some of the best work on restoring the natural Western Rite under His Grace Jerome Shaw, but then His Grace disobeyed the synod over mass ordinations and the feast of Corpus Christie, and the Western Rite in ROCOR survives mainly due to the decency of Metropolitan Hilarion Kapral, however, recent liturgical work seems to continue in the direction they were pursuing previously.

What I feel is needed is the restoration of regional uses where these survived, and their adaptation to Orthodoxy; in particular, the related family of the Ambrosian, Gallican and Mozarabic Rites, which feature a number of parallels to Orthodoxy, should be emphasized.  Also, a purified Roman Rite, stripped of the Gallicanizations introduced into it in various configurations by the Dominicans and later by Trent.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,502
  • even as to rule over them is the only liberty
  • Faith: Catholic, Carmelite
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Raleigh
All rearranging chairs in Notre Dame though. Doesn't matter what the liturgical books say if there's no faith, reverence, or the fear of God in those using them.
Wishing to grant pardon for ancient debts, he who cancels the debts of all people came himself and dwelt among those who were estranged from his divine grace; and tearing apart the record of sin, he hears from everyone: Alleluia.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,601
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
How do you know Roman Catholics have no faith, reverence, or fear of God?
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Show me the meaning of the word

Leave me alone, I was only singing

"You know, I don't know any writer who doesn't hate writing, so I guess what I'm saying is, I hate my life." - Lawrence O'Donnell

"I like fake violence and real peace." - John Fugelsang

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,502
  • even as to rule over them is the only liberty
  • Faith: Catholic, Carmelite
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Raleigh
How do you know Roman Catholics have no faith, reverence, or fear of God?
"You will know them by their fruits", as it is written. In the current era, chaos.
And it's not all, just those who seem to be running things. Takes a lot of faith to not run screaming for the hills.
Wishing to grant pardon for ancient debts, he who cancels the debts of all people came himself and dwelt among those who were estranged from his divine grace; and tearing apart the record of sin, he hears from everyone: Alleluia.

Offline noahzarc1

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 438
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch and all the East
Not to be Captain Obvious, but there was nothing but the Latin Mass when Vatican II happened, so merely promoting it again may not do much to clear out the rubble.

Actually, this is a gross over-simplification.  The Roman Rite mass had been in a process of steady decay since the Council of Trent declared war on the Rood Screen at the suggestion of the friars, and enforced a standardized use which replaced most of the ancient cathedral uses of Europe, even the majority of those which had 200 years or more of attestation.  The Breviary had been in decline since before the Great Schism, due to priests privatizing the Divine Office and removing it from parish life, even from monastic life (somewhat) in the case of the Carthusians.  The Anglicans, while wrecking most everything else, managed to accomplish something amazing by revitalizing the Divine Office and until the mid 20th century, Mattins, Litany, the damaged-but-not-beyond-repair (see St. Tikhon) Holy Communion liturgy and Evensong, and in some places Prime and Compline, formed a routine part of parish life.  Pope Pius X tried to fix things, and some of his reforms were good, but his attempt at improving the Roman Breviary was not entirely successful; Pope Pius XII caused catastrophic damage with sweeping changes to the Paschal Triduum.  Vatican II continued the trend by authorizing more sweeping changes, like suppressing Prime, which is an act of pure liturgical stupidity, and then Cardinal Bugnini and his secretive cabal of liturgical radicals brought forth the Pauline Missal.

Many diocesan Latin Mass parishes are making good efforts to reverse some of this damage; for example, while the SSPX is stalwart in using the Pius XII Triduum, many Latin Mass communities now have gone back to the ancient Triduum, which has commonalities, such as the specific wording of the Mass of the Presanctified, and the large number of Old Testament lessons used on Holy Saturday in the morning, with the Byzantine Rite and Armenian Rite, which in turn connect it with all of the other liturgies of the East.

More work is needed; ROCOR in my opinion was doing some of the best work on restoring the natural Western Rite under His Grace Jerome Shaw, but then His Grace disobeyed the synod over mass ordinations and the feast of Corpus Christie, and the Western Rite in ROCOR survives mainly due to the decency of Metropolitan Hilarion Kapral, however, recent liturgical work seems to continue in the direction they were pursuing previously.

What I feel is needed is the restoration of regional uses where these survived, and their adaptation to Orthodoxy; in particular, the related family of the Ambrosian, Gallican and Mozarabic Rites, which feature a number of parallels to Orthodoxy, should be emphasized.  Also, a purified Roman Rite, stripped of the Gallicanizations introduced into it in various configurations by the Dominicans and later by Trent.
Very very well stated, thanks.
"While we fight about words, take advantage of ambiguities, criticize authors, fight on party questions, have difficulty in agreeing, and prepare to anathematize each other, there is scarce a man who belongs to Christ." - Hilary of Poitiers (367)

Offline PorphyriosK

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 740
Not to be Captain Obvious, but there was nothing but the Latin Mass when Vatican II happened, so merely promoting it again may not do much to clear out the rubble.

Actually, this is a gross over-simplification.  The Roman Rite mass had been in a process of steady decay since the Council of Trent declared war on the Rood Screen at the suggestion of the friars, and enforced a standardized use which replaced most of the ancient cathedral uses of Europe, even the majority of those which had 200 years or more of attestation.  The Breviary had been in decline since before the Great Schism, due to priests privatizing the Divine Office and removing it from parish life, even from monastic life (somewhat) in the case of the Carthusians.  The Anglicans, while wrecking most everything else, managed to accomplish something amazing by revitalizing the Divine Office and until the mid 20th century, Mattins, Litany, the damaged-but-not-beyond-repair (see St. Tikhon) Holy Communion liturgy and Evensong, and in some places Prime and Compline, formed a routine part of parish life.  Pope Pius X tried to fix things, and some of his reforms were good, but his attempt at improving the Roman Breviary was not entirely successful; Pope Pius XII caused catastrophic damage with sweeping changes to the Paschal Triduum.  Vatican II continued the trend by authorizing more sweeping changes, like suppressing Prime, which is an act of pure liturgical stupidity, and then Cardinal Bugnini and his secretive cabal of liturgical radicals brought forth the Pauline Missal.

Many diocesan Latin Mass parishes are making good efforts to reverse some of this damage; for example, while the SSPX is stalwart in using the Pius XII Triduum, many Latin Mass communities now have gone back to the ancient Triduum, which has commonalities, such as the specific wording of the Mass of the Presanctified, and the large number of Old Testament lessons used on Holy Saturday in the morning, with the Byzantine Rite and Armenian Rite, which in turn connect it with all of the other liturgies of the East.

More work is needed; ROCOR in my opinion was doing some of the best work on restoring the natural Western Rite under His Grace Jerome Shaw, but then His Grace disobeyed the synod over mass ordinations and the feast of Corpus Christie, and the Western Rite in ROCOR survives mainly due to the decency of Metropolitan Hilarion Kapral, however, recent liturgical work seems to continue in the direction they were pursuing previously.

What I feel is needed is the restoration of regional uses where these survived, and their adaptation to Orthodoxy; in particular, the related family of the Ambrosian, Gallican and Mozarabic Rites, which feature a number of parallels to Orthodoxy, should be emphasized.  Also, a purified Roman Rite, stripped of the Gallicanizations introduced into it in various configurations by the Dominicans and later by Trent.

Wow, this is an impressive and informative post. 

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,936
  • OCNet Systems and Network Operations
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Thank you very much.   :)

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,019
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Actually, this is a gross over-simplification.  The Roman Rite mass had been in a process of steady decay since the Council of Trent declared war on the Rood Screen at the suggestion of the friars, and enforced a standardized use which replaced most of the ancient cathedral uses of Europe, even the majority of those which had 200 years or more of attestation.  The Breviary had been in decline since before the Great Schism, due to priests privatizing the Divine Office and removing it from parish life, even from monastic life (somewhat) in the case of the Carthusians. 

In what way do you consider the Divine Office removed from Carthusian life?
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 594
  • Māran etraḥam 'lay!
Not to be Captain Obvious, but there was nothing but the Latin Mass when Vatican II happened, so merely promoting it again may not do much to clear out the rubble.

Actually, this is a gross over-simplification.  The Roman Rite mass had been in a process of steady decay since the Council of Trent declared war on the Rood Screen at the suggestion of the friars, and enforced a standardized use which replaced most of the ancient cathedral uses of Europe, even the majority of those which had 200 years or more of attestation.  The Breviary had been in decline since before the Great Schism, due to priests privatizing the Divine Office and removing it from parish life, even from monastic life (somewhat) in the case of the Carthusians.  The Anglicans, while wrecking most everything else, managed to accomplish something amazing by revitalizing the Divine Office and until the mid 20th century, Mattins, Litany, the damaged-but-not-beyond-repair (see St. Tikhon) Holy Communion liturgy and Evensong, and in some places Prime and Compline, formed a routine part of parish life.  Pope Pius X tried to fix things, and some of his reforms were good, but his attempt at improving the Roman Breviary was not entirely successful; Pope Pius XII caused catastrophic damage with sweeping changes to the Paschal Triduum.  Vatican II continued the trend by authorizing more sweeping changes, like suppressing Prime, which is an act of pure liturgical stupidity, and then Cardinal Bugnini and his secretive cabal of liturgical radicals brought forth the Pauline Missal.

Many diocesan Latin Mass parishes are making good efforts to reverse some of this damage; for example, while the SSPX is stalwart in using the Pius XII Triduum, many Latin Mass communities now have gone back to the ancient Triduum, which has commonalities, such as the specific wording of the Mass of the Presanctified, and the large number of Old Testament lessons used on Holy Saturday in the morning, with the Byzantine Rite and Armenian Rite, which in turn connect it with all of the other liturgies of the East.

More work is needed; ROCOR in my opinion was doing some of the best work on restoring the natural Western Rite under His Grace Jerome Shaw, but then His Grace disobeyed the synod over mass ordinations and the feast of Corpus Christie, and the Western Rite in ROCOR survives mainly due to the decency of Metropolitan Hilarion Kapral, however, recent liturgical work seems to continue in the direction they were pursuing previously.

What I feel is needed is the restoration of regional uses where these survived, and their adaptation to Orthodoxy; in particular, the related family of the Ambrosian, Gallican and Mozarabic Rites, which feature a number of parallels to Orthodoxy, should be emphasized.  Also, a purified Roman Rite, stripped of the Gallicanizations introduced into it in various configurations by the Dominicans and later by Trent.

Trouble began for the Roman Office back in the 13th century, though it was not entirely visible at the time. The then-new Franciscans adopted the liturgical books of the Roman Curia because of their ease of transport, except they replaced the Old Roman psalter with the Vulgate; the Roman basilicas at that time still used their own variants of the ancient Roman liturgy, including the Old Roman psalter. The curial Office was a stripped-down version of what obtained in the churches of Rome—fewer processions and other "bells and whistles"; the work of the clerical bureaucrats that populated the Vatican required shorter Masses and Offices so that they could meet their priestly obligations and still do their more earthly work. This stripped-down curial liturgy was easier for itinerant friars to take with them on missions, as it only required a handful of books, rather than the large number of volumes used in the basilicas. Where the Franciscans went, the curial office went, too. This curial-Franciscan liturgy is the basis of the Tridentine liturgy, which actually represents very few departures from what was already used, as Pope Nicholas III had ordered the curial-Franciscan books to be used back in the late 13th century. Interestingly for ideas about papal supremacy, the Roman basilicas continued to use the Old Latin psalter even into the 20th century!

After Trent, the Jesuits, who have no requirement and no tradition of a choral office, took the tradition of the Roman Breviary as "Father's prayer book" (rather than a public celebration) wherever they went, which was basically all over the world. This is a factor in why public celebration of the Roman Office is so rare worldwide.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Xavier

  • Slave of Love consecrated to the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 870
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Full Re-Union come!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: The Pope - but my heart is for Re-Union!
Wonderful, Eamon. I agree almost entirely with your post. God bless you.

Now, here below is another article from Church Militant confirming the trend.

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/bishops-ask-young-catholics-why-they-stay-its-the-latin-mass

"US bishops' conference asks young people why they're Catholic; they say it's Latin Mass and orthodoxy

BALTIMORE (ChurchMilitant.com) - As the U.S. bishops meet in Baltimore, young Catholics on social media said what keeps them Catholic is the Traditional Latin Mass.
The social media accounts for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) posed the question, "If you are a young Catholic who is still Catholic, what has made you stay?"
The question received thousands of responses, many of them advocating for tradition and orthodoxy.
Many young Catholics cited the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, confession, the Rosary, beautiful churches, reverent liturgy and the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) as important for their faith.
One Twitter user emphasized, "The Eucharist and holding fast to Sacred Tradition."

He went on to say that he wanted to see more churches "bring back ad orientem, altar rails and beautiful Latin chant, so that kids will truly believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist. What we present externally affects what we believe internally."

The Eucharist was a common theme in the responses on Twitter and Facebook.
For instance, one convert said the Eucharist was the most important thing for which she came to the Catholic faith.
"Didn't start out Catholic, but I'll answer anyway," she tweeted. "I came for the liturgy and the sacraments, and most of all, [the] Eucharist."
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 01:14:06 PM by Xavier »
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the adoration ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

Offline Xavier

  • Slave of Love consecrated to the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 870
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Full Re-Union come!
  • Faith: Catholic Christian
  • Jurisdiction: The Pope - but my heart is for Re-Union!
Continued: "Other reasons given were the Church's doctrines, the saints, good catechesis, reading Catholic authors like G. K. Chesterton and the witness of faithful priests.

One Catholic replied to the USCCB's Twitter account, "I was taught salvation history by a good priest, the Bible started to make sense to me, and ultimately this directed me to the Eucharist."

A young Dominican priest emphasized the importance of tradition, theology and liturgy, saying in a tweet, "Pope Benedict XVI saved me during college; during high school it was discovering the Extraordinary Form."

Fr. Thomas Aquinas Pickett, O.P.@ThomasAquinasOP: Pope Benedict XVI saved me during college; during high school it was discovering the Extraordinary Form.

Many of those responding simply said they love Catholicism because it is the truth.

For instance, one Twitter user stated, "Traditional Catholic teachings, doctrines, and values. Because they are The Truth."

Many young Catholics were of the opinion that traditional liturgy goes hand in hand with sound Catholic teaching.

"I found the beauty of intellectual truth in the teachings of the Church, the True Presence of the Eucharist, and the manifestation of both of these things in the reverence and beauty of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass," wrote one Catholic Twitter user.

Because I found the beauty of intellectual truth in the teachings of the Church, the True Presence of the Eucharist, and the manifestation of both of these things in the reverence and beauty of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

A Catholic mother commented on the USCCB's Facebook post, "I'm 38 and a practicing Catholic. I stay because I know it is the One True Faith. The reverence of the TLM is what encourages me, as well as seeing so many young families with many children at Mass every week."

Another young Catholic gave a three-word comment on Twitter: "the Latin Mass."

Some of the young adults brought up issues that they have encountered in the Church, with many criticizing heterodoxy and superficial efforts to make the Church more appealing to youth.

One Twitter user complained that he had to teach himself Catholic doctrine out of the Baltimore Catechism after a director of religious education tried to teach him heresy about Christ.

"32...as a teen I watched my friends fall away one by one...I drove almost an hour into an unsafe neighborhood for an early morning Old Mass...I taught myself the faith out of the Baltimore Catechism after the DRE at my local parish tried telling us Jesus had sins..."
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the adoration ... https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,502
  • even as to rule over them is the only liberty
  • Faith: Catholic, Carmelite
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of Raleigh
Church Militant is probably reading what they want to into the thread though. They're not exactly typical Catholics, perhaps not even truly Catholic at all. (They aren't permitted to use Catholic in their title.)

I almost tweeted to the USCCB (going so far as to create an account) but didn't, but I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension, being a lie; Carmelites; and the visible principle of unity found in the Pope of Rome.

Masses are permitted to be the way they are until someone says otherwise, and it can honestly be a mortification. But am I going to the Mass for good traditional music or Christ?
Wishing to grant pardon for ancient debts, he who cancels the debts of all people came himself and dwelt among those who were estranged from his divine grace; and tearing apart the record of sin, he hears from everyone: Alleluia.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,601
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Supposedly, every Roman Catholic priest gained the right to say the Latin Mass, when the RCC Pope reinstated it. The fact that some parishes offer the Latin Mass should not be surprising to anyone.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Show me the meaning of the word

Leave me alone, I was only singing

"You know, I don't know any writer who doesn't hate writing, so I guess what I'm saying is, I hate my life." - Lawrence O'Donnell

"I like fake violence and real peace." - John Fugelsang

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
I almost tweeted to the USCCB (going so far as to create an account) but didn't, but I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension, being a lie; Carmelites; and the visible principle of unity found in the Pope of Rome.

You left Orthodoxy because of one thing a Priest said? Good luck being Catholic. Although I hope the Carmelites you found bring forth a solid spiritual foundation with beautiful liturgy, although if you have violated your conscience or made a rushed decision, know that you will never find peace.

Quote
Masses are permitted to be the way they are until someone says otherwise, and it can honestly be a mortification. But am I going to the Mass for good traditional music or Christ?

While anything at anytime can be an idol, including Liturgy, it is through traditional music and liturgy that one is able to find Christ. One doesn't go to Mass to find Christ at a Circus Mass, and one doesn't go to a Satanic Mass with a stolen Eucharist to find Christ, regardless if you can't find a Bishop's document condemning either. Even if a Pope has attended either.

In any regard, I think that if we have the resources to do so, we should give God our best. See John 12:1-8, or the story of Cain and Abel.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:35:05 PM by Eamonomae »
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Supposedly, every Roman Catholic priest gained the right to say the Latin Mass, when the RCC Pope reinstated it. The fact that some parishes offer the Latin Mass should not be surprising to anyone.

The New York diocese has been quite notorious at trying to shut down every single attempt at trying to open up a Church with the Latin Mass, for obvious reasons that the Latin Mass tends to be a magnet for people who actually want to adhere to Catholicism, and don't just go every once in a while because they're Irish, and as such, tend to be at ideological odds with the Diocese of New York, who, for example, participate in the LGBT Saint Patrick's parade.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:36:33 PM by Eamonomae »
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,567
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Supposedly, every Roman Catholic priest gained the right to say the Latin Mass, when the RCC Pope reinstated it. The fact that some parishes offer the Latin Mass should not be surprising to anyone.

The New York diocese has been quite notorious at trying to shut down every single attempt at trying to open up a Church with the Latin Mass, for obvious reasons that the Latin Mass tends to be a magnet for people who actually want to adhere to Catholicism, and don't just go every once in a while because they're Irish, and as such, tend to be at ideological odds with the Diocese of New York, who, for example, participate in the LGBT Saint Patrick's parade.

New York has several RC dioceses.  In the Archdiocese of NY and surrounding regions, there are a number of opportunities to attend the old Roman Mass and other services.  I attend whenever I am able.

If you’re in the area, here’s a blog that may help keep you up to date on goings on: http://sthughofcluny.org/

This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline PorphyriosK

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 740
.. I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension...

That quote is nothing compared to heretical humdingers of Pope Francis:

- 'Inside the Holy Trinity they're all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity'

- 'God cannot be God without man'

- "There is always confusion and disorder with the power of the Holy Spirit'

- 'There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.'
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:54:38 PM by PorphyriosK »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,567
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
.. I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension...

That quote is nothing compared to heretical humdingers of Pope Francis:

- 'Inside the Holy Trinity they're all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity'

- 'God cannot be God without man'

- "There is always confusion and disorder with the power of the Holy Spirit'

- 'There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.'

LOL.  Do you have sources for the first three?
This post gave me autism.

Since when has a Hierarch done anything for you? . . .

Apparently you can get the Juice or Power from a certain Icon.

Offline PorphyriosK

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 740
.. I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension...

That quote is nothing compared to heretical humdingers of Pope Francis:

- 'Inside the Holy Trinity they're all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity'

- 'God cannot be God without man'

- "There is always confusion and disorder with the power of the Holy Spirit'

- 'There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.'

LOL.  Do you have sources for the first three?

They are taken from his various speeches and off the cuff remarks over the years.  I got them from this page I bookmarked years ago that keeps track of a lot of his strange sayings: https://thewildvoice.org/pope-francis-chronology-perspective/

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,019
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
.. I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension...

That quote is nothing compared to heretical humdingers of Pope Francis:

- 'Inside the Holy Trinity they're all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity'

- 'God cannot be God without man'

- "There is always confusion and disorder with the power of the Holy Spirit'

- 'There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.'

LOL.  Do you have sources for the first three?

They are taken from his various speeches and off the cuff remarks over the years.  I got them from this page I bookmarked years ago that keeps track of a lot of his strange sayings: https://thewildvoice.org/pope-francis-chronology-perspective/
That site is garbage.  Some actual quotes (not all in context) mixed with the authors imagination and inuendo.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline PorphyriosK

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 740
.. I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension...

That quote is nothing compared to heretical humdingers of Pope Francis:

- 'Inside the Holy Trinity they're all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity'

- 'God cannot be God without man'

- "There is always confusion and disorder with the power of the Holy Spirit'

- 'There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.'

LOL.  Do you have sources for the first three?

They are taken from his various speeches and off the cuff remarks over the years.  I got them from this page I bookmarked years ago that keeps track of a lot of his strange sayings: https://thewildvoice.org/pope-francis-chronology-perspective/
That site is garbage.  Some actual quotes (not all in context) mixed with the authors imagination and inuendo.

Ah yes, I forgot that you were the one that will call any site critical of Pope Francis "garbage".  You used the same term to describe mainstream newspapers like the Catholic Register, etc.  Yes, this one happens to be a Trad Catholic site who's views I don't agree with either, but they are simply documenting well known facts.  Are you suggesting many thousands of of Catholics around the world are just hallucinating all the heresies the Pope speaks on a regular basis, or his shutting down of traditional, contemplative religious orders around the world that don''t care about his Liberation theology, or his promotion of heretical bishops to high positions in the Church?

« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 10:17:25 PM by PorphyriosK »

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,019
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
.. I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension...

That quote is nothing compared to heretical humdingers of Pope Francis:

- 'Inside the Holy Trinity they're all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity'

- 'God cannot be God without man'

- "There is always confusion and disorder with the power of the Holy Spirit'

- 'There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.'

LOL.  Do you have sources for the first three?

They are taken from his various speeches and off the cuff remarks over the years.  I got them from this page I bookmarked years ago that keeps track of a lot of his strange sayings: https://thewildvoice.org/pope-francis-chronology-perspective/
That site is garbage.  Some actual quotes (not all in context) mixed with the authors imagination and inuendo.

Ah yes, I forgot that you were the one that will call any site critical of Pope Francis "garbage".  You used the same term to describe mainstream newspapers like the Catholic Register, etc.  Yes, this one happens to be a Trad Catholic site who's views I don't agree with either, but they are simply documenting well known facts.  Are you suggesting many thousands of of Catholics around the world are just hallucinating all the heresies the Pope speaks on a regular basis, or his shutting down of traditional, contemplative religious orders around the world that don''t care about his Liberation theology, or his promotion of heretical bishops to high positions in the Church?
Not anysite.  TradCath whackos? Yes.  The Pope is not immune from criticism.  His off the cuff remarks often get him in to trouble.  The site you chose has lots of quotes out of context without any links.  What traditional order was shut down?  Not the Franciscans of the Immaculate.  What heretical bishops have been promoted?
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
.. I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension...

That quote is nothing compared to heretical humdingers of Pope Francis:

- 'Inside the Holy Trinity they're all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity'

- 'God cannot be God without man'

- "There is always confusion and disorder with the power of the Holy Spirit'

- 'There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.'

LOL.  Do you have sources for the first three?

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/03/25/woman-knows-read-pope-francis/

https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2017/06/07/170607a.html

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope-francis/mass-casa-santa-marta/2018-11/mass-casa-santa-marta.html

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/pope-francis-there-no-hell
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
.. I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension...

That quote is nothing compared to heretical humdingers of Pope Francis:

- 'Inside the Holy Trinity they're all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity'

- 'God cannot be God without man'

- "There is always confusion and disorder with the power of the Holy Spirit'

- 'There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.'

LOL.  Do you have sources for the first three?

They are taken from his various speeches and off the cuff remarks over the years.  I got them from this page I bookmarked years ago that keeps track of a lot of his strange sayings: https://thewildvoice.org/pope-francis-chronology-perspective/
That site is garbage.  Some actual quotes (not all in context) mixed with the authors imagination and inuendo.

Ah yes, I forgot that you were the one that will call any site critical of Pope Francis "garbage".  You used the same term to describe mainstream newspapers like the Catholic Register, etc.  Yes, this one happens to be a Trad Catholic site who's views I don't agree with either, but they are simply documenting well known facts.  Are you suggesting many thousands of of Catholics around the world are just hallucinating all the heresies the Pope speaks on a regular basis, or his shutting down of traditional, contemplative religious orders around the world that don''t care about his Liberation theology, or his promotion of heretical bishops to high positions in the Church?
Not anysite.  TradCath whackos? Yes.  The Pope is not immune from criticism.  His off the cuff remarks often get him in to trouble.  The site you chose has lots of quotes out of context without any links.  What traditional order was shut down?  Not the Franciscans of the Immaculate.  What heretical bishops have been promoted?

Cardinal Cupich
https://abc7chicago.com/religion/pope-francis-selects-cardinal-cupich-to-group-organizing-abuse-summit/4746437/
https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2017/07/18/chicagos-cardinal-cupich-saying-gay-lesbian-and-lgbt-step-toward

Cardinal Tobin
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/francis-appointed-cardinal-personally-welcomes-lgbt-pilgrimage-to-cathedral
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/francis-appointed-cardinal-pope-could-name-a-woman-cardinal

Father James Martin
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/04/12/father-james-martin-appointed-pope-francis-vatican-department-communications
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2018/05/met-catholic-fashions-father-james-martin
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pro-lgbt-priest-and-vatican-advisor-tweets-immodest-image-of-mary-on-guadal
https://www.tfp.org/in-fr-james-martins-own-words-seven-quotes-showing-how-he-is-harming-the-catholic-faith/
https://onemadmomblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/poland1.png?w=469&h=359

Need more examples?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 12:39:48 AM by Eamonomae »
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
-
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 12:37:26 AM by Eamonomae »
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline PorphyriosK

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 740
Not anysite.  TradCath whackos? Yes.  The Pope is not immune from criticism.  His off the cuff remarks often get him in to trouble.  The site you chose has lots of quotes out of context without any links.  What traditional order was shut down?  Not the Franciscans of the Immaculate.  What heretical bishops have been promoted?

With all due respect Fr. Deacon, I think you need to get out more.  The disaster of the Francis papacy has been widely written about in hundreds of religious and secular publications over the course of 6 years now.  All the Francis apologists that used to talk about "out of context" and "mistranslations" went silent long ago.  Not even Catholic Answers or EWTN try to use those excuses anymore. 

Perhaps the links Eamonomae has provided will be more to your liking, but if you can't see the truth of the situation by now after 6 years of the pope's bizarre, heretical nonsense, then it's possible no amount of evidence will convince you.

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 12:38:46 PM by Eamonomae »
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,019
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
.. I did return to communion with Rome due to "Jesus ascended, and hasn't been back since", as my Orthodox priest said at the Ascension...

That quote is nothing compared to heretical humdingers of Pope Francis:

- 'Inside the Holy Trinity they're all arguing behind closed doors, but on the outside they give the picture of unity'

- 'God cannot be God without man'

- "There is always confusion and disorder with the power of the Holy Spirit'

- 'There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.'

LOL.  Do you have sources for the first three?

They are taken from his various speeches and off the cuff remarks over the years.  I got them from this page I bookmarked years ago that keeps track of a lot of his strange sayings: https://thewildvoice.org/pope-francis-chronology-perspective/
That site is garbage.  Some actual quotes (not all in context) mixed with the authors imagination and inuendo.

Ah yes, I forgot that you were the one that will call any site critical of Pope Francis "garbage".  You used the same term to describe mainstream newspapers like the Catholic Register, etc.  Yes, this one happens to be a Trad Catholic site who's views I don't agree with either, but they are simply documenting well known facts.  Are you suggesting many thousands of of Catholics around the world are just hallucinating all the heresies the Pope speaks on a regular basis, or his shutting down of traditional, contemplative religious orders around the world that don''t care about his Liberation theology, or his promotion of heretical bishops to high positions in the Church?
Not anysite.  TradCath whackos? Yes.  The Pope is not immune from criticism.  His off the cuff remarks often get him in to trouble.  The site you chose has lots of quotes out of context without any links.  What traditional order was shut down?  Not the Franciscans of the Immaculate.  What heretical bishops have been promoted?

Cardinal Cupich
https://abc7chicago.com/religion/pope-francis-selects-cardinal-cupich-to-group-organizing-abuse-summit/4746437/
https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2017/07/18/chicagos-cardinal-cupich-saying-gay-lesbian-and-lgbt-step-toward

Cardinal Tobin
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/francis-appointed-cardinal-personally-welcomes-lgbt-pilgrimage-to-cathedral
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/francis-appointed-cardinal-pope-could-name-a-woman-cardinal

Father James Martin
https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2017/04/12/father-james-martin-appointed-pope-francis-vatican-department-communications
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2018/05/met-catholic-fashions-father-james-martin
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pro-lgbt-priest-and-vatican-advisor-tweets-immodest-image-of-mary-on-guadal
https://www.tfp.org/in-fr-james-martins-own-words-seven-quotes-showing-how-he-is-harming-the-catholic-faith/
https://onemadmomblog.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/poland1.png?w=469&h=359

Need more examples?
Yes, if this is the best you can produce.  Talking to the LGBTs?! The horror.   ::)
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,019
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Not anysite.  TradCath whackos? Yes.  The Pope is not immune from criticism.  His off the cuff remarks often get him in to trouble.  The site you chose has lots of quotes out of context without any links.  What traditional order was shut down?  Not the Franciscans of the Immaculate.  What heretical bishops have been promoted?

With all due respect Fr. Deacon, I think you need to get out more.  The disaster of the Francis papacy has been widely written about in hundreds of religious and secular publications over the course of 6 years now.  All the Francis apologists that used to talk about "out of context" and "mistranslations" went silent long ago.  Not even Catholic Answers or EWTN try to use those excuses anymore. 

Perhaps the links Eamonomae has provided will be more to your liking, but if you can't see the truth of the situation by now after 6 years of the pope's bizarre, heretical nonsense, then it's possible no amount of evidence will convince you.

Lifesite?  Rotate?  They same people with the same slander, not evidence. 
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Eamonomae

  • Snowflake
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 737
  • I am someone who is offended by the term snowflake
  • Faith: I have no idea
  • Jurisdiction: Schismatic regardless of which Church
Not anysite.  TradCath whackos? Yes.  The Pope is not immune from criticism.  His off the cuff remarks often get him in to trouble.  The site you chose has lots of quotes out of context without any links.  What traditional order was shut down?  Not the Franciscans of the Immaculate.  What heretical bishops have been promoted?

With all due respect Fr. Deacon, I think you need to get out more.  The disaster of the Francis papacy has been widely written about in hundreds of religious and secular publications over the course of 6 years now.  All the Francis apologists that used to talk about "out of context" and "mistranslations" went silent long ago.  Not even Catholic Answers or EWTN try to use those excuses anymore. 

Perhaps the links Eamonomae has provided will be more to your liking, but if you can't see the truth of the situation by now after 6 years of the pope's bizarre, heretical nonsense, then it's possible no amount of evidence will convince you.

Lifesite?  Rotate?  They same people with the same slander, not evidence.

If you can't see what's wrong with these links, I hope that the Roman Catholic Church never reunites with the Orthodox.
"Today day day day day day day
Day day day day day day day day day
By now now now now now now
Now now now now now now now now
I don't believe that anybody
Feels the way I do, do do do do" - Wndrwll by Neil Cicierega

Offline PorphyriosK

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 740
Pope Francis apologists, 2019:


Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,019
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Not anysite.  TradCath whackos? Yes.  The Pope is not immune from criticism.  His off the cuff remarks often get him in to trouble.  The site you chose has lots of quotes out of context without any links.  What traditional order was shut down?  Not the Franciscans of the Immaculate.  What heretical bishops have been promoted?

With all due respect Fr. Deacon, I think you need to get out more.  The disaster of the Francis papacy has been widely written about in hundreds of religious and secular publications over the course of 6 years now.  All the Francis apologists that used to talk about "out of context" and "mistranslations" went silent long ago.  Not even Catholic Answers or EWTN try to use those excuses anymore. 

Perhaps the links Eamonomae has provided will be more to your liking, but if you can't see the truth of the situation by now after 6 years of the pope's bizarre, heretical nonsense, then it's possible no amount of evidence will convince you.

Lifesite?  Rotate?  They same people with the same slander, not evidence.

If you can't see what's wrong with these links, I hope that the Roman Catholic Church never reunites with the Orthodox.

Like the one that says Pope Francis said there is no hell?  But that it was in a private audience and the Vatican explicitly says that is not what was said.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,601
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Quote
Yes, if this is the best you can produce.  Talking to the LGBTs?! The horror.   ::)

Yeah. How are we suppose to bring people to Christ unless we, uh, talk to them?
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Show me the meaning of the word

Leave me alone, I was only singing

"You know, I don't know any writer who doesn't hate writing, so I guess what I'm saying is, I hate my life." - Lawrence O'Donnell

"I like fake violence and real peace." - John Fugelsang