Author Topic: He who believes and is baptised will be saved  (Read 376 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« on: February 25, 2019, 12:04:22 AM »
But he who does not believe will be condemned

I said what I believed yesterday in thread I thought this a few days ago but this may be more accurate

As far as we know all must be baptised and all must partake of sacraments and ear the Lords body and drink His blood to be nourished onto heaven

I think Protestants will be saved in world to come but I do not know we can not know for certain
It says he who does not believe will be condemned so if you are not baptised but believe will you escape final condemnation

I believe there is a final condemnation which is the death Jesus talks about that believers will never see death. But those believers are overcomes through their belief faith without works are dead
They are new creatures through communion with God they are new people who serve the poor
Therefore we must all be new creatures so being saved may take diligence seeking of new birth evidenced by works. Or believers are saved through purgatory if they atleast bore some fruit and repented though they done many sins which merit purgatory

There is a judgement seat of Christ different to last judgement as Paul says as in Adam all die so in Christ all shall be made alive but every man in his own order Christ the first fruits afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming

It is not clear who is in Christ is it only those who are the Lords at His coming the perfected  or will there be those who will finally be with the Lord at His coming
Will it include Protestants who overcome

Children might also need to believe all of them in case of a sick child who maybe can not believe or not expected to maybe God will make exception maybe not
I think children who believe but are not baptised will be saved after but I do not know but I think they are more likely to be saved than children of unbelievers



Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2019, 12:18:18 AM »
I believe the insistence on baptism in our church is wrong because unless an convert finds another convert they won’t be able to marry. It may be harder to find a convert that is only Orthodox rather than only Christian. If they marry a born orthodox it is danger if we don’t know they  are genuine. Many would get baptised for the sake of their spouse but some don’t or if they do they still don’t believe in it

Therefore I take back that you need to be baptised in our church. It is also a stumbling block to many to convert. I believe they may need to be baptised outside the church out of obedience because being unwilling to be obedient is judge worthy but if they don’t think they need to or have good reason not to only God can judge
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 12:20:56 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2019, 12:31:52 AM »
But he who does not believe will be condemned

I said what I believed yesterday in thread I thought this a few days ago but this may be more accurate

As far as we know all must be baptised and all must partake of sacraments and ear the Lords body and drink His blood to be nourished onto heaven

I think Protestants will be saved in world to come but I do not know we can not know for certain
It says he who does not believe will be condemned so if you are not baptised but believe will you escape final condemnation

I believe there is a final condemnation which is the death Jesus talks about that believers will never see death. But those believers are overcomes through their belief faith without works are dead
They are new creatures through communion with God they are new people who serve the poor
Therefore we must all be new creatures so being saved may take diligence seeking of new birth evidenced by works. Or believers are saved through purgatory if they atleast bore some fruit and repented though they done many sins which merit purgatory

There is a judgement seat of Christ different to last judgement as Paul says as in Adam all die so in Christ all shall be made alive but every man in his own order Christ the first fruits afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming

It is not clear who is in Christ is it only those who are the Lords at His coming the perfected  or will there be those who will finally be with the Lord at His coming
Will it include Protestants who overcome

Children might also need to believe all of them in case of a sick child who maybe can not believe or not expected to maybe God will make exception maybe not
I think children who believe but are not baptised will be saved after but I do not know but I think they are more likely to be saved than children of unbelievers

I was saying here there may or may not be a purgatory for all believers who repent but have sins they did not release from harming many or all may need to overcome and show one is new creature doing good works

Unfortunately not everyone deserves salvation hence Jesus said those who will be lost will go to the same punishment of the devil everlasting fire

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2019, 12:45:22 AM »
There are many lost people without the gospel. We must not offend them away without a word in season. You need only the gospel and to obey the Lord  to escape final condemnation
Not everyone is expected to reach for the fullness. It only has advantages to have healing in this life and to more assuredly go to heaven when you die it is up to the Lord if He gives others fullness outside He may if He does not it is up to Him whether to make people lose reward or not for not having the fullness
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 12:51:06 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2019, 04:18:56 AM »
I like this answer from orthodoxinfo.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx

I believe people would need to be baptised in the church if there we’re still signs such as gift of tongues. That was just to start the church. God does not will to force people to follow Him through signs. They deserved signs because they needed to know Christianity is true but we know now by the success of Christianity and our faith in the signs. But signs needed to be produced at one time. Still those who had signs had different challenges to follow Jesus so we can’t say we wish we had what they had. God prefers to give no signs But he no longer gives signs that you need to be baptised.The bible says creation is enough proof so there is no real person who does not believe in God completely otherwise there would not be thousands of religions in every culture. They just don’t want to believe
I mean baptism in the church people who believe God commanded people to be baptised and are just unwilling may be without excuse even those who think they may not have to may be without excuse

Still the sacraments give grace in this life to be fruitful and live perfectly but God may not hold it against them


We need to accept other Christians now and work together with them to help each other for salvation

Orthodox don’t have to give up their faith to go to learn from other churches which are strong in some points
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 04:27:12 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2019, 04:37:31 AM »
There may or may not be other signs if person still wants more proof or to help doubters who are honest going through rough time from enemy not to those who don’t want to believe. Like for doubting Thomas. He prefers people to believe without proof but He may help those who are weak if they still want to be commited to God
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 04:37:54 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2019, 04:42:33 AM »
I mean baptism in the church people who believe God commanded people to be baptised and are just unwilling may be without excuse even those who think they may not have to may be without excuse

I mean if they are unwilling they are probably without excuse and I mean if they are not baptised atleast outside the church
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 04:54:32 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2019, 04:48:10 AM »
I don’t think we should judge those who change denominations if they don’t judge us if they are just exploring but they have nothing against orthodoxy but it may be dangerous for their soul I do not know but I can’t judge
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 04:48:22 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2019, 02:36:16 AM »
The article on will heterodox be saved does not say Protestants do not need to be baptised into the church if they know they need to just if they do not know. It is their way of saying we do not know if some Protestants will not be saved they may be sincere but they may have to be baptised because they may be able to comprehend though we do not know if they will be responsible for sure they may not be.

On speaking to my dad and thinking it is wrong to judge Protestants as not saved but it is not our job to say they are. We can think they are likely saved. Though they may not have the help of the sacraments. It may not make them more likely to be saved or it may we do not know. Likewise it may or may not give reward

I think it is important to stress my belief they are likely saved without anything lacking for their salvation but I could be wrong so I should not take the place of God. It is up to God if He will accept them which I think likely He will but He alone knows and we can not judge them as not saved


Perhaps I should not say it is not my job to say they are saved because I fear they do not become orthodox but because they are not saved because I decide they should God will decide they should which is not true. True I do fear making an incorrect judgement but it is not because I think they are not likely saved

It also seems wrong to say you need to be orthodox to be saved but I do not say you have to but that we can not judge Protestants as not saved but not accepting Protestants seems to discourage conversion to Christianity as many converts may not find a person to marry  from their nationality who was from their religion to marry. Unless we want to marry converts but we must trust them first that they won’t convert back to their religion and practice Christianity seriously 

What do you think if someone says other Christians may not be saved will it hinder people from being Christian or hinder them from being married ?

In conclusion we do not know certainly we will lose help without the church sacraments especially communion and we don’t want to hurt people in case it helps. It may make no difference but we should keep taking in case it does help.

I think I should have communion to not stumble those who still think only those who take it can be saved to not hinder people from taking it. I don’t judge them for that but I don’t think they should hold certainly only orthodox will be saved but if they do it should only be in concern for people leaving the sacraments. Even if they hold that as their belief I do not judge them I think God will save them and hope He does He alone knows but they may be stumbling blocks. I know if they hold that with no doubt He will certainly accept but I think He will accept them even if they think they could be wrong

I hold that all Protestants can likely be saved the same but we should not stop having communion because we do not know. Those who do not know the truth even when it is discussed  as the article says are saved
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 02:46:23 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2019, 02:52:33 AM »
I believe there are exceptions when things are not fair but God knows if they are not fair. I mean if people free will was taken from them such that they had no chance to make a decision such as in terrorism or other unfair situations. They may die before they are given their fair chance so they may be saved. However it may be unfortunate they are killed while God gave them their chance and you are responsible for lessening their chances by killing them though they are wrong not to call on Jesus if they have been called by Him and of course yourself by killing are you judged
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 02:53:47 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2019, 03:00:51 AM »
My dad said once God is a just judge don’t you think if you believe in the church God will judge Protestants individually he will judge their heart whether they refused the sacraments because of a good reason in their heart or not. They should be looking to accept the sacraments. I don’t know if his position changed or I am misinterpreting his new position.

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2019, 03:19:56 AM »
They may die before they are given their fair chance so they may be saved. However it may be unfortunate they are killed while God gave them their chance and you are responsible for lessening their chances by killing them though they are wrong not to call on Jesus if they have been called by Him

even if they don’t call on Jesus and they had some chances but not as much if there is ever enough chances under terrorism God will judge whether it is not right to judge them with such unfair terrorism if He decides to make that exception

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2019, 03:34:09 AM »
My dad said once God is a just judge don’t you think if you believe in the church God will judge Protestants individually he will judge their heart whether they refused the sacraments because of a good reason in their heart or not. They should be looking to accept the sacraments. I don’t know if his position changed or I am misinterpreting his new position.

It is important to say what a good reason could be and not to make up reasons. One could be truly not believing in them I suppose. Truly believing God is more loving than such restrictions even being aware. Having no doubt God is more loving.  That’s why we say Protestants are likely saved. And it probably applies to all Protestants because such restrictions do not please God but at least those with good heart are probably saved

He did say something like this but he might have meant if he didn’t know he needs to have those sacraments and that God is more loving than that and died without it
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 03:43:21 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2019, 07:45:16 AM »
I felt compelled to make such judgement which I now believe is wrong to encourage church going. I unnecessarily burden Protestants. My dad just doesn’t want me declaring a judgement without being sure but we believe Protestants are saved.  I am not the one to even declare God is pleased with orthodoxy as restricting as it is now though we believe it has maintained much of the  correct faith. It is not my job to say what is right just what we believe and we believ Protestants are likely to be saved as much as orthodox. We go to church to encourage church unity and do good but it not the only church. Every church as my dad says has food and bad just as in revelations. If people don’t go to Orthodox Church I believe they can still be saved. But you should go to church to be sure for it may be only non orthodox who don’t have to come though I don’t know
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 07:55:12 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2019, 08:15:10 AM »
I am not to say Protestants are maybe not saved to seek converts but to point their acceptance to God acceptance of them I believe which we have very much hope in is right and not to force people to believe because it is my opinion but to form their own conclusions about what they think God would want them to believe knowing His will and heart  atleast acknowledging it is just their belief which they think is right and hope in because they are not God but they don’t know anything either because they are not God but they hope their belief is right. Yet do they prefer to follow what is most correct for themself if it is pleasing to God but it may vary what they think is pleasing to God and they may be wrong about themself if they think they are not pleasing to God where they are though it is okay to try something else
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 08:21:18 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2019, 10:47:00 PM »
I understand the Protestant views we can not know which view is right because the orthodox view even if it preserves the form it is exclusive. I believe even those who do not believe you need to be baptised it makes sense. Because it may be you only need to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. Paul commanded Cornelius house to be baptised just for the sake of unity not that they might  not already be  accepted by God. Baptism saves when one knows it is a command of God such as in early church
We should be willing to be baptised nowadays if you believe it is a command even if you think it may not be a necessary command but it may still be accepted without it even if you think it is necessary you may live without it but there may be danger because you believe it is necessary unless you have a good excuse why not do it. But we should still do it to witness our faith. As I said I understand the Protestant view and I hope it is acceptable. Others may disagree but I hope it is acceptable within true orthodoxy. Baptism however increases unity with all Christians The more people baptised the more witness to Christ that people take his commandments seriously. So one should be baptised if he stumbles no one he should worry about stumbling not if it is in fact a command of Christ.  But if one thinks it is a command of Christ one should be baptised and you should not worry about others reaction though others should not stumble for they may be accepted without baptism. As I said I understand the Protestant and orthodox position I hope the Protestant position is acceptable to God. I think it is but there is a chance orthodox position is right but I hope the Protestant position is
Protestants see the water and the Spirit as one birth hence Jesus said is every one who is born of the Spirit Water refers to answer of a good conscience to God that is repenting and Spirit refers to accepting Christ after confessing ones sins. You must confess your sins by the preaching of the word which cleanses like water to be born of the Spirit. They could be wrong but God may require the literal only from those who were preached with signs and authority and he intended it only to continue to baptise all nations as a witness or to require it only at the start of Christianity where there were signs and only if there are signs now   
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 10:59:26 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2019, 04:40:55 AM »
According to Protestants the water is a symbol of spiritual water that is needed to submerge through to die to old man and rise again. The non Israelites we’re not required to be circumcised. In the Old Testament rites were very important in the New Testament the rite is not as important as what it symbolises. I hope they are right but they could be wrong. It may be important to be saved straight away without being saved in the world to come. Or baptism may be essential for those who think it may be necessary which may be all who still have chance to be baptised. Or it may be the least thing that is essential. I do not know. I should probably teach it as essential but I hope others are saved without it if they deserve compassion. It is probably not excused if one is not willing to obey because he need not judge those who don’t get baptised certainly but say they may be judged if God thinks them worthy of judgement which they may be because they are not obedient
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 04:55:10 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2019, 05:06:39 AM »
I should have said some and a minority of Protestants who do not baptise
Baptism may not be very inconvenient and anyone can do it acccording to Protestants. They should be encouraged to do it and willing to be obedient. If they believe in it just as if they believe in communion they should do it but they may be saved without communion because it is not a personal thing unlike baptism which is a one time thing and they follow Jesus but you have to please men for communion or you may be hindered from it. And sustaining spiritual life possibly should not be based on whether you went to church but based on following you conscience and the Spirits guidance. If people believe in communion they should do it too there may be no hinderance except if you believe in it as body and blood you may have to have it because of obedience or you may be saved without it if God thinks that sacrament especially is a requirement He should not burden people with
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 05:13:10 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2019, 05:16:38 AM »
Baptism may be essential for all so you should do it

Online Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,402
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2019, 02:20:49 PM »
A thread I started just now that you might find helpful, I don't know.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 02:21:28 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,175
Re: He who believes and is baptised will be saved
« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 05:11:30 AM »
Thank you :)