Author Topic: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy  (Read 1718 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,338
  • Faith: just orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: technically Metropolis of Atlanta
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2019, 11:58:40 PM »
Well, here's what Archbishop Demetrios thinks the mission of GOARCH is according to an encyclical last year.
Quote
As the Greek-American Orthodox community, we have been called by God and history to live and spread the incomparable and eternal wealth of our Orthodox faith and life as well as the universal and timeless values of Hellenism to the Western Hemisphere.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,683
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2019, 01:56:00 AM »
Can we just all agree that the Bible, the Holy Councils and most of the Fathers of the Church used the Greek language?

Obviously that left a stronger mark on Orthodoxy as a whole than the Russian language did, which received its current form under Lenin. If I recall correctly, ROCOR used tsarist Russian until the 1990s, when they adopted modern Russian in order to account for immigrants from the former USSR.

No one denies the truth of your first comment.  That you felt the need to follow it up with the bit about Russia tells us all we need to know about what this is really all about.
can't get anything past the Mor....
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,683
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2019, 01:58:00 AM »
There’s a Greek girl at my OCA parish who told us that she didn’t know the Orthodox church performed confessions until she was 19, as no one ever went and church was just a place to hang out with your Greek friends at coffee hour. I wonder if there was baklava… In any case, GOARCH and its Canadian sister churches seem to have no sense of mission beyond acting as incubators of Greek culture. The EP is enabling that and now seems to be trying to cement that globally.
incubators or taxidermists?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,980
  • "With great power comes great electric bill."
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2019, 02:01:52 AM »
Well, here's what Archbishop Demetrios thinks the mission of GOARCH is according to an encyclical last year.
Quote
As the Greek-American Orthodox community, we have been called by God and history to live and spread the incomparable and eternal wealth of our Orthodox faith and life as well as the universal and timeless values of Hellenism to the Western Hemisphere.

I wonder how Archbishop Demetrios is defining Hellenism?

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,245
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: TUOCOUIA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2019, 04:17:26 AM »
Well, here's what Archbishop Demetrios thinks the mission of GOARCH is according to an encyclical last year.
Quote
As the Greek-American Orthodox community, we have been called by God and history to live and spread the incomparable and eternal wealth of our Orthodox faith and life as well as the universal and timeless values of Hellenism to the Western Hemisphere.

I wonder how Archbishop Demetrios is defining Hellenism?

"Values of".
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Gorazd

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,498
  • Faith: 7 Councils
  • Jurisdiction: First without Equals
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2019, 04:22:43 AM »
There’s a Greek girl at my OCA parish who told us that she didn’t know the Orthodox church performed confessions until she was 19, as no one ever went and church was just a place to hang out with your Greek friends at coffee hour. I wonder if there was baklava…

Wait... there is no baklava at the OCA? Even the UOC-MP occasionally has baklava...

Offline Gorazd

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,498
  • Faith: 7 Councils
  • Jurisdiction: First without Equals
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2019, 04:29:05 AM »
No one denies the truth of your first comment. 

Read through the thread. Shortly after your comment, they did start to deny it...



Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,141
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2019, 04:31:02 AM »
No one denies the truth of your first comment. 

Read through the thread. Shortly after your comment, they did start to deny it...

Who denied it?

Offline Gorazd

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,498
  • Faith: 7 Councils
  • Jurisdiction: First without Equals
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2019, 05:03:13 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

Offline seekeroftruth777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,268
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2019, 05:07:42 AM »
So Greek Culture is more important than Holy  Orthodoxy?  Does GOARCH,  and the E.P. not see 80% of Greeks, here in the states are no longer identify Orthodox? because many  Greeks think it nothing but a ethnic club?  I am thankful for my church,  yet maybe my Greek church is rare here in the states? who knows? my priest is Romanian, somehow  in a Greek Church,  and the lords prayer is a variety of Languages. I'm just concerned Ethnoplhyletism is a issue in the church,  I heard from others that went to Greek Churches,  who were basically told "not Greek,  go somewhere else".

This schism brings a lot to the forefront,  and it is sad, I can see the Arabs,  Russians,  and other points,  Racism,  and Phyletism has no role in the Church,  repent!   and it is pathetic,  I'm loyal to my spiritual father,  yet it just so sad. How common is Phyletism?


Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,141
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2019, 08:52:54 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.

I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.

Quote
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

He probably also healed with Windex.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,736
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2019, 09:10:49 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.

I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.

Quote
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

He probably also healed with Windex.

Lol!  ROFL!
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

“Sometimes reality is too complex for oral communication. But legend embodies it in a form which enables it to spread all over the world.”
- The computer Alpha 60, from the film Alphaville.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,736
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2019, 09:11:34 AM »
Can we just all agree that the Bible, the Holy Councils and most of the Fathers of the Church used the Greek language?

Obviously that left a stronger mark on Orthodoxy as a whole than the Russian language did, which received its current form under Lenin. If I recall correctly, ROCOR used tsarist Russian until the 1990s, when they adopted modern Russian in order to account for immigrants from the former USSR.

Also:

I do not agree that Koine Greek is more important to the Orthodox faith than the dialects of the Aramaic and indeed would counter that such an assertion would strike a Syriac or Assyrian Christian as racialist.  And unfortunately it is a fact that some Greek people do hold racist views of Armenian, Syriac and Coptic Christians, which is very sad given that all three peoples are co-victims of the Greek genocide, but I myself have observed this racism first hand.

Also, a former friend of mine of nominal Greek Orthodoxy, shortly before I terminated our friendship, made a very ugly remark about Roma people, in which he referred to them, entirely incorrectly, as “Romanian scum.”  This was very unpleasant to see.

However I have no doubt the majority of Greeks would be apalled by such racism, and am merely citing a pattern I have seen among a minority of Greeks who are nominally Orthodox but who lack the loving disposition one encounters among Greeks with an Orthodox phrenomena.  For example, I had a wordless exhange with Elder Ephrem once and felt pure love in his presence, and other Greek clergy have deeply impressed me.  I am also a huge fan of the Abbot of Vatopedi, whose health we should pray for due to his recent heart attack in the Ukraine; I believe he will be remembered as a saint.

I also greatly admire our own Fr. George and Antonis as exceptional Greek clergy.  And Mor, Anastasios and Maria have all met groups of Greek Old Calendarists they love, who I am eager to meet; separate groups I think, but I have enormous sympathy for Greek Old Calendarists because or the persecution they endured under the dictatorship of the Colonels.  (By the way, why did that Junta not promote itself?  I mean you would think being dictators they would take more impressive titles, like, say, Supreme Marshals of the Hellenic Army).

I would also argue that since Koine Greek is no longer the vernacular language of the Greek people, it occupies the same realm as Church Slavonic, Coptic, Old Georgian, Classical Armenian, and Latin.

I would further argue that since the Roman Church adopted Latin under Archbishop and was in communion with the Eastern Orthodox until 1078, when communion was broken with Antioch (which is more important from the perspective of classical ecclesiology than Constantinople), and since during that time Rome was frequently the most important see, the Latin language is critically important to Orthodoxy as the language of such figures as Pope St. Gregory Diologos, Archbishop Leo, St. Hippolytus, St. John Cassian (who is the key figure in Orthodox hamartiology, more important than St. Augustine or anyone else), St. Ambrose of Milan, evangelists like St. Patrick and St. Augustine of Canterbury, important hierarchs like St. Gelasius, St. Vincent of Lerins, and numerous other figures, as well as important personages not recognized as saints but recognized as important figures in the early Church, such as Tertullian.

Furthermore, the Romanian language is a vernacular derivative of Latin with a similiar relationship to Latin as Ukrainian to Old Church Slavonic.  Romanian is basically a Slavic-influenced Roman language; essentially Latinate but with Slavic decorative features.  And many Orthodox in the area to the south of Romania also speak Aromanian, a related language, but due to lingustic-nationalist chauvinism I am unaware of an Aromanian liturgy.

~

In contemporary Eastern Orthodoxy the two most important languages are certainly Russian and Romanian, because the Russian Orthodox Church is the largest and the Romanian Orthodox Church is the second largest.  This is simply the basic fact.  There are indeed more Russian Orthodox than there are members of all other Orthodox churches combined, but fortunately Church Slavonic provides a liturgical lingua franca to connect Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian, Polish and Carpatho-Ruthenian-Lemko liturgical praxis.

Thank you for this excellent post.

You are most welcome.
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

“Sometimes reality is too complex for oral communication. But legend embodies it in a form which enables it to spread all over the world.”
- The computer Alpha 60, from the film Alphaville.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,736
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2019, 09:20:12 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

In the Syriac Orthodox Church, we have the Peshitta, which is translated directly from the ancient Hebrew-Aramaic Old Testament and is extremely well respected as a translation (the NT part is translated from the Greek).  Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox church because the original Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, except for some newer deuterocanonical books, and every time you read Isaiah or Daniel, you are reading from a text originally composed in Aramaic.  And our Lord did speak it, almost certainly.  There is an Aramaic substrate in the Gospels which surfaces in the form of “Eloi, eloi, lama sabacthani,” Anthema” and so on. 

The Septuagint is a good translation but imperfect; I think the most accurate translations are snapshots of the Hebrew Old Testament before the Masoretic Text was standardized, of which there are two: the Vulgate of St. Jerome (an Orthodox saint; the Vulgate is by the way the only direct translation of all of Scripture by a single Patristic saint, an avid champion against Arius and against the Origenist sect), and the Peshitta, the Old Testament portion of which is believed to predate the new Testament. 
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

“Sometimes reality is too complex for oral communication. But legend embodies it in a form which enables it to spread all over the world.”
- The computer Alpha 60, from the film Alphaville.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,736
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2019, 09:25:49 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.

I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.

That is entirely correct.  Gorazd is using a Strawman argument and either inadvertantly or intentionally (hopefully not intentionally) misrepresenting my position.  I do not deny the importance of Greek, I merely deny the view of Gorazd that Orthodoxy somehow depends on Hellenism, which is an untenable position.  I wish Gorazd would not misread me and I grow weary of this.

Anyone remember Rakovsky?  He at least liked our food.  He did misquote our bishops, but no one could deny Rakovsky was an enthusiast of Masala Chai.  Indeed if Rakovsky opened an Armenian-Ethiopian-Indian fusion restaurant serving Bastruma, Babaganoush and Chicken Tikka Masala atop an Injera with Mango Lassis, I would dine there.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 09:26:45 AM by Alpha60 »
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

“Sometimes reality is too complex for oral communication. But legend embodies it in a form which enables it to spread all over the world.”
- The computer Alpha 60, from the film Alphaville.

Offline Saxon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 236
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2019, 09:51:05 AM »
So Greek Culture is more important than Holy  Orthodoxy?  Does GOARCH,  and the E.P. not see 80% of Greeks, here in the states are no longer identify Orthodox? because many  Greeks think it nothing but a ethnic club?  I am thankful for my church,  yet maybe my Greek church is rare here in the states? who knows? my priest is Romanian, somehow  in a Greek Church,  and the lords prayer is a variety of Languages. I'm just concerned Ethnoplhyletism is a issue in the church,  I heard from others that went to Greek Churches,  who were basically told "not Greek,  go somewhere else".

This schism brings a lot to the forefront,  and it is sad, I can see the Arabs,  Russians,  and other points,  Racism,  and Phyletism has no role in the Church,  repent!   and it is pathetic,  I'm loyal to my spiritual father,  yet it just so sad. How common is Phyletism?

That's true. Potential Orthodox converts have been dissuaded because they went to a Greek parish thinking that it's something it wasn't. They're either met with hostility and rudeness or are just put off by the ethnocentrism. I went to a Greek parish once and had no less than a dozen yia-yias come up to me speaking Greek, and when I responded in English that I wasn't Greek, they asked why I was there. When I said I'm Orthodox they were all still very friendly and welcoming, but I still felt like a zoo animal on display. If this was something at parish level then I could at least understand it, but when there's someone like Archbishop Demetrios tying Orthodoxy and "Hellenism", that's a new level of absurdity. It should be said, however, that the Russians, Serbs, and Ukrainians, at least overseas, are just as bad for this kind of thing, and it's not exactly fair to just beat up on the Greeks. In any case, it makes me worry for whatever future Orthodoxy might have abroad.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,025
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2019, 10:28:54 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.

I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.

Quote
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

He probably also healed with Windex.

Greeks are also a dwindling ethnic group with probably only 20 million world wide. I see all these comments as an attempt to try and grow the population to a healthier level. Its more a knee jerk reaction at preservation. Than it is a pushing of ethnicity on others.
 I've recently read some prominent historians that say in 75 years Greeks will probably not exist. I don't know how true that is but, at the same time as an ethnic group we are in danger imo.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,338
  • Faith: just orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: technically Metropolis of Atlanta
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2019, 10:36:01 AM »
Maybe the Archbishop means love of beauty, because that's the only truly universal value I can think of from ancient Greece.

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,916
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2019, 10:44:30 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.

I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.

Quote
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

He probably also healed with Windex.

Greeks are also a dwindling ethnic group with probably only 20 million world wide. I see all these comments as an attempt to try and grow the population to a healthier level. Its more a knee jerk reaction at preservation. Than it is a pushing of ethnicity on others.
 I've recently read some prominent historians that say in 75 years Greeks will probably not exist. I don't know how true that is but, at the same time as an ethnic group we are in danger imo.

Lots of ethnic groups are in (even greater) danger of disappearance and lots of them have borderline racist knee jerk reactions to it, yes. That part is understandable, if not justified.

The difference is that not all of them have wealthy and powerful churches that can theologize these fears and force them onto their ostensible brothers in Christ.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,025
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2019, 10:54:47 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.

I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.

Quote
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

He probably also healed with Windex.

Greeks are also a dwindling ethnic group with probably only 20 million world wide. I see all these comments as an attempt to try and grow the population to a healthier level. Its more a knee jerk reaction at preservation. Than it is a pushing of ethnicity on others.
 I've recently read some prominent historians that say in 75 years Greeks will probably not exist. I don't know how true that is but, at the same time as an ethnic group we are in danger imo.

Lots of ethnic groups are in (even greater) danger of disappearance and lots of them have borderline racist knee jerk reactions to it, yes. That part is understandable, if not justified.

The difference is that not all of them have wealthy and powerful churches that can theologize these fears and force them onto their ostensible brothers in Christ.
They are actually forcing it down their own fold. There are many Greek orthodox in the diaspora that are in mixed marriages and a lot of them are choosing to leave the church in favor of otherness. Those big church can dwindle into bank foreclosed properties in no time if the community doesn't do anything to uphold them and try to keep there flock from leaving. Your only looking at it from your perspective.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,916
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2019, 11:03:16 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.

I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.

Quote
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

He probably also healed with Windex.

Greeks are also a dwindling ethnic group with probably only 20 million world wide. I see all these comments as an attempt to try and grow the population to a healthier level. Its more a knee jerk reaction at preservation. Than it is a pushing of ethnicity on others.
 I've recently read some prominent historians that say in 75 years Greeks will probably not exist. I don't know how true that is but, at the same time as an ethnic group we are in danger imo.

Lots of ethnic groups are in (even greater) danger of disappearance and lots of them have borderline racist knee jerk reactions to it, yes. That part is understandable, if not justified.

The difference is that not all of them have wealthy and powerful churches that can theologize these fears and force them onto their ostensible brothers in Christ.
They are actually forcing it down their own fold. There are many Greek orthodox in the diaspora that are in mixed marriages and a lot of them are choosing to leave the church in favor of otherness. Those big church can dwindle into bank foreclosed properties in no time if the community doesn't do anything to uphold them and try to keep there flock from leaving. Your only looking at it from your perspective.

Sounds like conflating two different issues to me. Maybe ask why they're in a position where they feel like they have to choose between being Greek, being married, and being Orthodox in the first place (which is the only interpretation of your comment that makes much sense to me, I sure hope you're not suggesting that a Greek Orthodox attending eg. their spouse's Russian Church is abandoning their heritage)?

And when Pat. Bartholomew talks about the other Orthodox not recognizing the "primacy of our race," the problem is not just an intra-Greek one.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 11:04:09 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,025
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2019, 11:11:21 AM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.

I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.

Quote
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

He probably also healed with Windex.

Greeks are also a dwindling ethnic group with probably only 20 million world wide. I see all these comments as an attempt to try and grow the population to a healthier level. Its more a knee jerk reaction at preservation. Than it is a pushing of ethnicity on others.
 I've recently read some prominent historians that say in 75 years Greeks will probably not exist. I don't know how true that is but, at the same time as an ethnic group we are in danger imo.

Lots of ethnic groups are in (even greater) danger of disappearance and lots of them have borderline racist knee jerk reactions to it, yes. That part is understandable, if not justified.

The difference is that not all of them have wealthy and powerful churches that can theologize these fears and force them onto their ostensible brothers in Christ.
They are actually forcing it down their own fold. There are many Greek orthodox in the diaspora that are in mixed marriages and a lot of them are choosing to leave the church in favor of otherness. Those big church can dwindle into bank foreclosed properties in no time if the community doesn't do anything to uphold them and try to keep there flock from leaving. Your only looking at it from your perspective.

Sounds like conflating two different issues to me. Maybe ask why they're in a position where they feel like they have to choose between being Greek, being married, and being Orthodox in the first place (which is the only interpretation of your comment that makes much sense to me, I sure hope you're not suggesting that a Greek Orthodox attending eg. their spouse's Russian Church is abandoning their heritage)?

And when Pat. Bartholomew talks about the other Orthodox not recognizing the "primacy of our race," the problem is not just an intra-Greek one.
If it were Orthodox it would be fine. They are involved in numerous inter racial marriages not involving orthodox at all. When your a small ethnic group the challenge is even greater to find suitable partners in a diaspora. The pool of potential candidates become much smaller.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,980
  • "With great power comes great electric bill."
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2019, 11:16:50 AM »
I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.
+++++++++

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,980
  • "With great power comes great electric bill."
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2019, 11:18:33 AM »
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.
He probably also healed with Windex.
  :laugh:

Offline PorphyriosK

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 404
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2019, 11:48:16 AM »
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

I know the movie "Passion of the Christ" is not so popular among Orthodox, but I like the scene where Jesus starts speaking to Pilate in Latin.  The expression on Pilate's face was shock.  Great scene, great acting.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,736
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2019, 11:57:53 AM »
Maybe the Archbishop means love of beauty, because that's the only truly universal value I can think of from ancient Greece.

When I think of ancient Greece, compared to other more noble civilizations, two words come to mind: sexual perversion.  It was ancient Persia where you saw the original innovations in philosophy, architecture and so on, under the Zoroastrian faith, which appears to me to be inspired by the Hebrew religion (some scholars say vice-versa, but if we date Zarathustra to the era Persians assign him to, it would place him well within the area of Judeo-Persian cultural contact).

Now, the Byzantine civilization on the other hand, as well as the Macedonian pan-Hellenic civilization created by Alexander, each represented a huge improvement on Greece; it was the Roman Empire which took Greek culture and fused it with a firm moral framework (which was not perfect, but Romans equated virtue with manliness and would never have tolerated someone like Diogenes of Sinope, until the Imperial Age when their morality plunged and you had perverse authors like Petronius the Arbiter), but it was Byzantine civilization which is one of several which emerged from the fusion of a somewhat impressive Pagan civlization with Christianity.  The same story repeats itself within Syria, Mesopotamia, Malankara, Armenia, Georgia, Ethiopia, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Moravia, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Brittania, Cambria, Caledonia and Hibernia, Russia, Gallicia and Scythia, among other places, basically every civilization that adopted Christianity even in part became essentially civilized.  Those which adhered to heathenism remain somewhat barbarous. 
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

“Sometimes reality is too complex for oral communication. But legend embodies it in a form which enables it to spread all over the world.”
- The computer Alpha 60, from the film Alphaville.

Offline Samn!

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 751
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2019, 12:25:41 PM »
Here's a Lebanese response to the article in the original post:

https://araborthodoxy.blogspot.com/2019/02/jad-ganem-foot-soldiers-of-hellenism.html

Quote
Given the above, it has become clear that the Holy Mountain-- until a condemnation of what has been said is issued-- regards the Orthodox world being two worlds: Hellenic and non-Hellenic; and that any criticism, objection or questioning of decisions made by the Hellenic world is tantamount to a battle or a humiliation. It believes in the superiority of the Hellenic world over the other world and considers right belief to be wherever there is Hellenism, which has on Mount Athos its brave foot-soldiers.

These racist words, which fall under the ethnophyletism that the Church has condemned, are a sad reflection of mountains crumbling and so they must be read and understood well in Antioch, so that her children may know that they have no fixed destination apart from the Mount of the Transfiguration, by the light of whose Christ they may discern the lights scattered in the mountains and valleys.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,245
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: TUOCOUIA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2019, 12:51:11 PM »
I guess Heimbach was right all along.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,119
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2019, 01:00:52 PM »
As if perversion exists nowhere else.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works


Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

If it's not love, then it's the bomb that will bring us together

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,245
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: TUOCOUIA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2019, 01:05:35 PM »
There is no perversion at the South Pole.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Iconodule

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 15,837
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Johnstown
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2019, 01:08:21 PM »
There is no perversion at the South Pole.

The effect was that of a Cyclopean city of no architecture known to man or to human imagination, with vast aggregations of night-black masonry embodying monstrous perversions of geometrical laws and attaining the most grotesque extremes of sinister bizarrerie. - At the Mountains of Madness
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,245
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: TUOCOUIA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2019, 01:22:13 PM »
There is no perversion at the South Pole.

The effect was that of a Cyclopean city of no architecture known to man or to human imagination, with vast aggregations of night-black masonry embodying monstrous perversions of geometrical laws and attaining the most grotesque extremes of sinister bizarrerie. - At the Mountains of Madness

I stand corrected.  Biro, forgive me; you are correct.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,141
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2019, 02:51:08 PM »
As if perversion exists nowhere else.

“People I dislike are also bad, so people I like are allowed to be bad.”

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,025
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2019, 03:42:13 PM »
Maybe the Archbishop means love of beauty, because that's the only truly universal value I can think of from ancient Greece.

When I think of ancient Greece, compared to other more noble civilizations, two words come to mind: sexual perversion.  It was ancient Persia where you saw the original innovations in philosophy, architecture and so on, under the Zoroastrian faith, which appears to me to be inspired by the Hebrew religion (some scholars say vice-versa, but if we date Zarathustra to the era Persians assign him to, it would place him well within the area of Judeo-Persian cultural contact).

Now, the Byzantine civilization on the other hand, as well as the Macedonian pan-Hellenic civilization created by Alexander, each represented a huge improvement on Greece; it was the Roman Empire which took Greek culture and fused it with a firm moral framework (which was not perfect, but Romans equated virtue with manliness and would never have tolerated someone like Diogenes of Sinope, until the Imperial Age when their morality plunged and you had perverse authors like Petronius the Arbiter), but it was Byzantine civilization which is one of several which emerged from the fusion of a somewhat impressive Pagan civlization with Christianity.  The same story repeats itself within Syria, Mesopotamia, Malankara, Armenia, Georgia, Ethiopia, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Moravia, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Brittania, Cambria, Caledonia and Hibernia, Russia, Gallicia and Scythia, among other places, basically every civilization that adopted Christianity even in part became essentially civilized.  Those which adhered to heathenism remain somewhat barbarous.
That isnt completely true. The hellenic culture was quite civil even before Christiany entered the seen. One could even make an argument that hellenistic culture was a prelude to christianity since it brought enlightenment to otherwise barbaric humans though Alexanders conquer.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 03:46:55 PM by Tzimis »
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,736
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2019, 05:16:48 PM »
As if perversion exists nowhere else.

You misunderstand.  I was talking about Classical Greece during the age of King Leonidas of Sparta, Thucydides, Pericles, Socrates, the “Sacred Band of Thebes” and so on, in which Greece was a collection of warring city states or alliances under a regional government such as the Boeotarchs.

Byzantine Greece on the other hand was much improved, as is modern Greece.  Some of the best Orthodox I have met are Greeks.
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

“Sometimes reality is too complex for oral communication. But legend embodies it in a form which enables it to spread all over the world.”
- The computer Alpha 60, from the film Alphaville.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,736
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2019, 05:18:40 PM »
There is no perversion at the South Pole.

People live there, and therefore there is perversion.  Indeed, there is a Russian Orthodox Church down there; I would be very surprised if that priest does not hear confessions (by the way, that would be an awesome ecclesiastical assignment; I’ll bet the priest is a hieromonk or archimandrite).
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

“Sometimes reality is too complex for oral communication. But legend embodies it in a form which enables it to spread all over the world.”
- The computer Alpha 60, from the film Alphaville.

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,025
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2019, 05:24:55 PM »
First time I ever conversed with a walking encyclopedia.  Encyclopedias are usually right though.  You on the other hand bring a fortitude of baseless knowledge.
Your dam good though and I like you.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 05:32:15 PM by Tzimis »
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,141
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2019, 05:43:43 PM »
First time I ever conversed with a walking encyclopedia.  Encyclopedias are usually right though.  You on the other hand bring a fortitude of baseless knowledge.

What’s “a fortitude”?

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,025
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2019, 05:55:22 PM »
First time I ever conversed with a walking encyclopedia.  Encyclopedias are usually right though.  You on the other hand bring a fortitude of baseless knowledge.

What’s “a fortitude”?
Synonymous with abundance.
"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
Iron Mike Tyson

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,916
  • too often left in the payment of false ponchos
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2019, 06:30:08 PM »
Maybe the Archbishop means love of beauty, because that's the only truly universal value I can think of from ancient Greece.

When I think of ancient Greece, compared to other more noble civilizations, two words come to mind: sexual perversion.  It was ancient Persia where you saw the original innovations in philosophy, architecture and so on, under the Zoroastrian faith, which appears to me to be inspired by the Hebrew religion (some scholars say vice-versa, but if we date Zarathustra to the era Persians assign him to, it would place him well within the area of Judeo-Persian cultural contact).

Now, the Byzantine civilization on the other hand, as well as the Macedonian pan-Hellenic civilization created by Alexander, each represented a huge improvement on Greece; it was the Roman Empire which took Greek culture and fused it with a firm moral framework (which was not perfect, but Romans equated virtue with manliness and would never have tolerated someone like Diogenes of Sinope, until the Imperial Age when their morality plunged and you had perverse authors like Petronius the Arbiter), but it was Byzantine civilization which is one of several which emerged from the fusion of a somewhat impressive Pagan civlization with Christianity.  The same story repeats itself within Syria, Mesopotamia, Malankara, Armenia, Georgia, Ethiopia, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Moravia, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Brittania, Cambria, Caledonia and Hibernia, Russia, Gallicia and Scythia, among other places, basically every civilization that adopted Christianity even in part became essentially civilized.  Those which adhered to heathenism remain somewhat barbarous.
That isnt completely true. The hellenic culture was quite civil even before Christiany entered the seen. One could even make an argument that hellenistic culture was a prelude to christianity since it brought enlightenment to otherwise barbaric humans though Alexanders conquer.

Oh yeah. Slavery (and being able to kill them with impunity in Sparta), screwing 13 year old boys, rapist gods, women as being literally degenerated men. So civil...

Greece was comparatively civil in some respects, but I'm not sure that counts for very much.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,141
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2019, 06:33:13 PM »
First time I ever conversed with a walking encyclopedia.  Encyclopedias are usually right though.  You on the other hand bring a fortitude of baseless knowledge.

What’s “a fortitude”?
Synonymous with abundance.

What encyclopedia says that?

Offline rakovsky

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,106
  • St. Mstislav I
    • The Old Testament Prophecies of the Messiah's Resurrection and Orthodox Christianity's roots in the Holy Land
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2019, 06:38:01 PM »
It is a fact that the early Greek Church was pivotal in early Christianity.  We cannot deny that.... anymore than we can deny that Jews played a pivotal role in the Old Testament.

The statement isn't telling us only the Greeks will be saved, or I need to become "Greek" to be saved.

The Roman and Aramaic churches were "pivotal" in early Christianity too. The Aramaic churches or Aramaic/Jewish/Syrian Christians are probably more pivotal for the early church because they spread the faith from the Jewish Christian disciples around the world, including to the Greeks.

What is the theological basis for the new claims that Greek culture and nationality have primacy in Orthodoxy?
It looks defective. It's like how a saint told the czar that Moscow is the third Rome, except one adds on an ethnic component and saying that therefore the Russian people have primacy now in Orthodoxy.

The most that I could argue is a factual, non-theological claim that Greek language and culture have come to play one of the leading roles in Eastern Orthodox peoples' culture and language, along with Slavic cultures and languages.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 06:40:44 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,141
  • A well-sexed theologian
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2019, 07:00:21 PM »
Who denied it?

Alpha60 and Luke.

I didn’t see them denying the importance of Greek, but rather underscoring the importance of other traditions...which is a natural reaction to, say, someone dismissing everything that’s not Greek.

Quote
I mean, even the (Byzantine/EO) Orthodox OT is the Greek Septuagint... but some people seriously think Aramaic is as important as Greek for the Orthodox Church...
And btw, Christ most likely spoke both. Archeologists found Greek stuff near Nazareth, which makes it plausible that he knew the language, and that he used it for communicating with non-Jews such as Pilate.

He probably also healed with Windex.

Greeks are also a dwindling ethnic group with probably only 20 million world wide. I see all these comments as an attempt to try and grow the population to a healthier level. Its more a knee jerk reaction at preservation. Than it is a pushing of ethnicity on others.
 I've recently read some prominent historians that say in 75 years Greeks will probably not exist. I don't know how true that is but, at the same time as an ethnic group we are in danger imo.

In the non-Greek world, when we want to grow our population, we have sex.  With women.

Offline Alpha60

  • A thing of routers, hubs and switches, and dreary web GUIs
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,736
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2019, 07:19:56 PM »
Maybe the Archbishop means love of beauty, because that's the only truly universal value I can think of from ancient Greece.

When I think of ancient Greece, compared to other more noble civilizations, two words come to mind: sexual perversion.  It was ancient Persia where you saw the original innovations in philosophy, architecture and so on, under the Zoroastrian faith, which appears to me to be inspired by the Hebrew religion (some scholars say vice-versa, but if we date Zarathustra to the era Persians assign him to, it would place him well within the area of Judeo-Persian cultural contact).

Now, the Byzantine civilization on the other hand, as well as the Macedonian pan-Hellenic civilization created by Alexander, each represented a huge improvement on Greece; it was the Roman Empire which took Greek culture and fused it with a firm moral framework (which was not perfect, but Romans equated virtue with manliness and would never have tolerated someone like Diogenes of Sinope, until the Imperial Age when their morality plunged and you had perverse authors like Petronius the Arbiter), but it was Byzantine civilization which is one of several which emerged from the fusion of a somewhat impressive Pagan civlization with Christianity.  The same story repeats itself within Syria, Mesopotamia, Malankara, Armenia, Georgia, Ethiopia, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Moravia, France, Germany, Scandinavia, Brittania, Cambria, Caledonia and Hibernia, Russia, Gallicia and Scythia, among other places, basically every civilization that adopted Christianity even in part became essentially civilized.  Those which adhered to heathenism remain somewhat barbarous.
That isnt completely true. The hellenic culture was quite civil even before Christiany entered the seen. One could even make an argument that hellenistic culture was a prelude to christianity since it brought enlightenment to otherwise barbaric humans though Alexanders conquer.

Only if you consider slavery, human sacrifice, institutionalized pederasty, institutionalized misogyny, and a “sacred band” of pederastic homosexual lovers as the elite unite of the Theban Army “quite civil.”

I consider it filthy.

And even Plato writes rather too much about pederasty to be able to give him a pass on it.

Diogenes, as far as we know, did not indulge in pederasty, but for shock value, he engaged in scatological and, shall we say, self-abusive acts related to Onan, in public, so he is not really much of an improvement at all.

Really, the ancient Greeks were vile people.  Any Greek who is proud of their civilization in antiquity is in prelest; if I were Greek I would be ashamed, just as I am ashamed by the Barbarity of my own Confederate slave-owning ancestors.
“Moreover, Carthage must be destroyed.”
-Cato the Elder

“Sometimes reality is too complex for oral communication. But legend embodies it in a form which enables it to spread all over the world.”
- The computer Alpha 60, from the film Alphaville.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,245
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: TUOCOUIA
Re: Athonites: Hellenism and the EP have the Primacy in Orthodoxy
« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2019, 07:27:02 PM »
There is no perversion at the South Pole.

People live there, and therefore there is perversion.  Indeed, there is a Russian Orthodox Church down there; I would be very surprised if that priest does not hear confessions (by the way, that would be an awesome ecclesiastical assignment; I’ll bet the priest is a hieromonk or archimandrite).

No one actually lives on the South Pole.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"