Author Topic: The ideal iconostasis  (Read 4469 times)

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Offline Justinian of Narnia

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2019, 12:52:01 PM »
Thoughts on this arrangement?

Fail.

Explain.

Well, I have great respect for Justinian of Narnia, but that iconostasis, unless its in a carpatho-Rusyn/Ruthenian church, isn’t within the “parameters of perfection.”  But the photos are also kind of obscured and its a bit hard to see all the details, so I kind of am at a loss.

I appreciate your kind words. The church is essentially a pole barn. It is far from ideal, but for a small country church it is functional. The short doors are, from what I have been told, to allow the nave to see into the sanctuary. The hope is to build a temple soon more in keeping with tradition. Thank you all for your input.

I have to confess I couldn’t clearly make out the doors in the photo, but my eyes were inflamed when I looked at it.  It sounds like you have a lovely small parish.  I am blessed with very good eyesight but of late my mother and I have both had an unpleasant allergic reaction to a rosemary bush adjacent to our house, so if you could pray for us that would be much appreciated.

I will. I hope you recover quickly. Lord have mercy.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 12:52:44 PM by Justinian of Narnia »
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2019, 03:13:36 PM »
Thoughts on this arrangement?

Fail.

Explain.

Well, I have great respect for Justinian of Narnia, but that iconostasis, unless its in a carpatho-Rusyn/Ruthenian church, isn’t within the “parameters of perfection.”  But the photos are also kind of obscured and its a bit hard to see all the details, so I kind of am at a loss.

I appreciate your kind words. The church is essentially a pole barn. It is far from ideal, but for a small country church it is functional. The short doors are, from what I have been told, to allow the nave to see into the sanctuary. The hope is to build a temple soon more in keeping with tradition. Thank you all for your input.

I have to confess I couldn’t clearly make out the doors in the photo, but my eyes were inflamed when I looked at it.  It sounds like you have a lovely small parish.  I am blessed with very good eyesight but of late my mother and I have both had an unpleasant allergic reaction to a rosemary bush adjacent to our house, so if you could pray for us that would be much appreciated.

I will. I hope you recover quickly. Lord have mercy.

Thank you.  God bless you my friend! :)

By the way, I am really enjoying this thread, and I would like to thank all members for their participation.  It is rare we get an interesting liturgical thread, and this thread strikes me as splendid.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Brilko

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2019, 07:13:46 PM »
That which I prefer and that which should be standard for all are often two different things. I’d probably balk at neon, though.

Offline hecma925

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2019, 07:20:31 PM »
That which I prefer and that which should be standard for all are often two different things. I’d probably balk at neon, though.

I kinda like a nice red neon "XB" above the Royal Doors for Pascha.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2019, 07:58:42 PM »
That which I prefer and that which should be standard for all are often two different things. I’d probably balk at neon, though.

I could see concealed neon used for backlighting, but not a visible neon tube.  And especially not animated neon in the Old Las Vegas style!

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Svetlana

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2019, 03:05:50 AM »
To Alpha -- and others expressing the importance of keeping sacred what goes on at the altar:

"That is epic; this is exactly the sort of iconostasis I love.  It slices across the boundary of the altar like a lance, calling the faithful to piety and preserving the sanctity.

And there is a profound mystical quality of an iconostasis, hidden behind a great cloud of incense, at those moments when the curtain is open, the doors are open and one can catch a glimpse theough the holy fog of the altar on the other sidel that is profoundly evocative of the promise of the eschaton, the world to come in which the laity will be united with God inside a mystical altar that no longer requires an iconostasis."

--
I often think of the importance of this, after experiencing what was somewhat disconcerting to me at an OCA service, where, during Liturgy, prayers normally done in secret, around the sanctification of the Holy Gifts -- were said openly, and with open doors.   It just felt like those words were not for us to hear.  I felt like closing the doors.  Not being able to, I closed my ears . . .

Why do they do this?

--Sv.


Offline isxodnik

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2019, 04:39:12 AM »
Maybe because of the lack of trust/small faith? There is no understanding of the greatness of his Ministry, and there is/appear a desire to prove/demonstrate to the rest of the people that they are busy in the altar.
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Offline Svetlana

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2019, 01:43:21 PM »

In response to earlier comment (section 1 of this thread) concerning Armenian Lenten practices:

"Conversely, to symbolize the expulsion of the faithful from the Garden of Eden, the Armenian liturgy leaves the curtain closed throughout Lent (they used to have a Presanctified liturgy at which one would assume the laity were communicated in keeping with the generally accepted ancient principle of high-frequency Lenten communion, but this unfortunately fell out of use, so only the priest gets communicated in Lent; this requires rectification)."

Response to your comment:  No, this does not need rectification.  One needs to understand the spiritual meaning.

When the curtain goes down (or actually, across), at the beginning of Lent, it is a definite feel of the start of a General Penance that is imposed, for the period of Lent, on the people.  This penance originated with the Fall of Man, and, one can experience here, has been imposed on all of mankind -- however, with the hope of a way of Redemption, to bring ourselves, as humankind, out of the Fallen condition.  Interesting part of this symbolism is the other part, what happens behind the curtain, all during Lent :  the priest, as the good shepherd of the people, still performs Liturgy, still consecrates the sacred Gifts, still takes Communion -- yet here, he takes it for the people and on their behalf, as the good shepherd of his flock, taking upon himself the burden of all of the sins of the congregation, and offering intense supplication for all of us, in this more hidden way for us -- ALL DURING LENT.  The choir still sings the regular Liturgy, with appropriate Lenten sharagans (like Troparions), thus, participation is there, but with being brought to greater awareness that there is a partial closing off . . . with partial opening going on, in the entire human experience . . . on either side of the curtain.

In an interesting way, this process is similarly summed up in the Byzantine Presanctified Liturgy, with the partially drawn curtain across the middle door -- a most powerful symbol.

With the Liturgy still going on as real Liturgy (not Presanctified), it is LIVE presence behind the curtain, and priest is our l-i-v-e and real supplicator. 

Just outside the curtain, from the beginning of Lent till Palm Sunday, a large icon of the Crucifixion is placed, with tiered candles on each side.
On Wednesdays and Fridays, evening repentance services are held in front of the curtain and Crucifixion icon.  Texts are recited and sung, by priest and deacons.  Then repentance prayers are shared in aloud readings among those present in the congregation.  The nature of the chants is something like the wailing of one's soul.  And of the texts -- what brings one to awareness of one's own sins.  Overall effect is that one cannot possibly b-u-t repent.

Then, on the eve of Palm Sunday, the priest takes a hammer and starts knocking on the floor in front of the curtain, asking, "Please, Lord, open Thy heavenly gates"  ( actual words in ritual to be verified, since my own memory doesn't serve me, but this is the idea).  Then a second time, priest knocks and repeats his plea.  Then a third time.   . . . then, after 40 days of closing off . . . the curtain OPENS !   And Communion is given to the people. 

What one is given to experience in this way of General Penance during Lent -- is undescribable.   To be denied -- and then to be allowed Communion once again.  To be experience, but also be promised a way out of our Fallen state, as humankind, and in our own life experience individually.  This has a very powerful impact. 

Thus, no need for 'rectification' !

During Holy Week, then, Holy Thursday Liturgy is celebrated with Communion, and Holy Saturday morning, then evening Coming of Light Liturgy, then morning Easter Liturgy, all with Communion.
On Holy Thursday night is the washing of the feet ceremony, and Holy Unction is given as a self-anoint in packets to the people (butter instead of oil).  There is a Tenebrae section, with all candles and lights out, and priest crying out: "Where art Thou, O Lord?" -- very emotional moment, with subsequent text.  Impossible to NOT feel what must have been at Gethsemane.  Interesting that priest, speaking for the people, takes on almost the words of Christ: "Why hast Thou forsaken Me, O Lord?"   Then exit . . . not a word,  pin-drop . . .

Curtain comes down again.

Good Friday all the texts are read of the Passion and Death, in front of the Crucifixion icon.  Come evening, a church-shaped portable sepulchre, just like what the Greeks use, is then taken in procession at the Good Friday evening service, around the church and back to its place in front of the curtain, where Lamentations are sung -- just as in the Byzantine Churches.  Then people have the chance to crawl underneath the sepulchre (same as in Greek Church), to be blessed by the sepulchre, and finally, in the end, each one is given a couple of flowers from it by the deacon.

Curtain goes up again on Holy Saturday morning, in anticipation of the Resurrection.

I felt these things should be shared and clarified, for the i-m-p-o-r-t-a-n-c-e of doing things in this way, as a powerful symbol, and powerful Lenten experience.  ( -- and not rectification.)

-Sv.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2019, 07:25:14 PM »
My own view is the Armenian Church would do well to reimplement the Presanctified Liturgy it historically used, along with the other 11 anaphorae that became disused between the eleventh and sixteenth centuries.  This would bring its praxis into greater compatibility with Eastern churches and with the other OO liturgical rites; the Armenian liturgy as it stands is not wrong, it is an Orthodox liturgy, but it is a potential stumbling block because of some of the disparities between it and the other Orthodox churches.  For example, the idea of not partaking of the Eucharist in Lent is contrary to what the Armenian church did in antiquity (St. Severus of Antioch probably originated the Presanctified Liturgy).  At the same time, in other respects the Armenian liturgy is the closest in terms of the structure of the Eucharistic service to the Byzantine Rite.  And one thing it has going for it that the other OO rites lack is multiple musical settings and active contemporary composers).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 07:25:33 PM by Alpha60 »

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Svetlana

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2019, 03:26:16 PM »
The Armenian Liturgical praxis is not a 'stumbling block' -- and to whom?  to your own personal judgment?  All is legitimate early Apostolic faith, following unbroken Apostolic succession.

You cannot make such assumptions, especially as a non-clergyman.

Further, there is no need for 'compatibility', as the Armenian Church stands on its own, in its own uniqueness, and with full legitimacy and authority of unbroken Apostolic continuity -- and legitimate hierarchical decisions throughout its historical timeline as well as 'vartabedoutian' = concern for preserving Orthodox Truth, prayed for in every Liturgy.

For this very good reason and concern, it tries to stay close to certain Byzantine elements, and has tried, in various moments in its history, to reunite with the Byzantine Church.

Your judgment of Armenians as a 'stumbling block' and your 'requirement' of 'compatibility' to 'something' -- is simply your own personal 'stuff'.

If Armenian uniqueness, legitimacy, and historical truth are not suitable for you, then kindly leave us alone, and consult clergy for what 'should be'.

-Sv.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2019, 05:20:18 PM »
So we love the Armenians again this week, awesome.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2019, 05:30:26 PM »
So we love the Armenians again this week, awesome.

The week is almost over.
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Offline Alpha60

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2019, 10:26:29 PM »
So we love the Armenians again this week, awesome.

I had an epic Armenian dinner a few weeks ago.  It had a combination of pan-Soviet, Irano-Armenian, and classical Armenian dishes, for example, borscht, chicken kebab (zereshk polo), ground beef kebab (koobideh), babaganoush, bastruma, some other spicy cured meat, chicken kiev, and even pelmeni.  It was truly an epic meal, one of the highlights of my culinary life.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Svetlana

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2019, 12:46:47 AM »
Glad you like our cuisine.  It is among the best in the world.

--
Week on or off, I love my Armenian people. 
--

Thank you, all in this thread who have helped me with some important distinguishings.   Armenians have always loved being unique.  In everything.  It has preserved us as a people.  And in our beautiful early Christian faith.  Thus, we learned, as part of our survival process throughout history, ways of 'diplomatic stretching'  =  keeping the good relations, where needed and important . . . while at the same time keeping to ourselves what is important. 

Example:  in the con-celebrations that Armenian Apostolic Orthodox are used to doing with the Armenian Mekhitarists (Roman Catholics), the idea is to make the gesture of good relations and respect for common origins:  embrace of the ethnic common ground and embrace of coming from the same trunk of Armenian Christianity.  Yet, in order for the con-celebration to be possible, the phrase containing 'Filioque' is entirely removed. 

It is thus a way of flexibility of conducting relations.  But integrity is kept in the doctrine of the Armenian Orthodox:  Filioque is NOT accepted.

--
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-Sv.


Offline Volnutt

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2019, 01:13:20 AM »
So, Copts = "heretics who don't accept the right Councils," Armenians = "fine"

You do realize the two are in communion with one another, right? ???
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Offline Svetlana

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2019, 01:32:40 AM »
Or do you prefer bourma?

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2019, 01:38:01 PM »
Example:  in the con-celebrations that Armenian Apostolic Orthodox are used to doing with the Armenian Mekhitarists (Roman Catholics), the idea is to make the gesture of good relations and respect for common origins:  embrace of the ethnic common ground and embrace of coming from the same trunk of Armenian Christianity.  Yet, in order for the con-celebration to be possible, the phrase containing 'Filioque' is entirely removed. 

It is thus a way of flexibility of conducting relations.  But integrity is kept in the doctrine of the Armenian Orthodox:  Filioque is NOT accepted.
Concelebration is the pillar of Orthodox ecclesiology, it should never serve "relations", "ethnic common ground" or a historical "same trunk"... If Catholics want to concelebrate with the Orthodox, they must be Orthodox, ommitting heterodox formulations is not enough.
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Offline Svetlana

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2019, 01:53:01 PM »
I agree.  Didn't make the rules.

Offline iohanne

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2019, 03:24:07 PM »
I don't often like to go on about my "ideal" in Liturgy since Christ comes to feed his flock regardless of aesthetics, but I find myself less drawn to the iconostasis of the East and more drawn to the ciborium (the architectural form, not the sacred vessel) also called the baldachin, as they stand in the great Roman basilica churches.  (Attachment No. 1)

Although the vast majority of remaining ciboria or baldachini tend not to be equipped with curtains, I've been told that they once did have curtains drawn across them during specific portions of the Mass.  (Attachment No. 2) I'm not as liturgically educated as many who have commented in this thread, so I'd appreciate confirmation or more information concerning curtains and ciboria in relation to the western Holy Mass. 

Perhaps this is indicative of where I stand personally, coming from a Latin Christian family and being drawn to the traditions that have survived only in the East, but I personally really like the layout of St. Mark's in Venice with both ciborium and see-through rood screen (not like it matters that it's see-through because the whole sanctuary is elevated, blocking the view of most but the tallest lay worshippers.)  You can't see the ciboria and altar very well, but if you can see it, it's quite beautiful. (Attachment No. 3)

When you get past the rood screen, you are greeted with the altar. (Attachment No. 4)


Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2019, 05:30:29 PM »
The ciborium was also a feature of Hagia Sophia and some Byzantine Churches have them.  Our seminary has one.
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2019, 06:21:27 PM »

Although the vast majority of remaining ciboria or baldachini tend not to be equipped with curtains, I've been told that they once did have curtains drawn across them during specific portions of the Mass.  (Attachment No. 2) I'm not as liturgically educated as many who have commented in this thread, so I'd appreciate confirmation or more information concerning curtains and ciboria in relation to the western Holy Mass. 


Those photos are extremely beautiful.  I would not be at all surprised if Ciboria were historically equipped with curtains; we know that the Western Rite historically had a psuedo-Iconostasis in the form of the Rood Screen, which like the Iconostasis, is clearly derived from the Templon, the gazebo-like altar rail (which I believe did have curtains) at the Hagia Sophia.  And so the concept of concealing from view the Eucharist during certain moments of the service is clearly an ancient, pan-Orthodox concept.  It specifically died in the West due to the influence of the Fransicans and Dominicans at the Council of Trent; the friars in their own churches pioneered a more open layout, and Trent legislated that as official.  This gives rise to the ironic situation where a disproportionate number of surviving rood screens are located in Anglican churches which managed to avoid the destructivd wrath of the Calvinist Iconoclasts in the 16th and 17th centuries (when we tally up the total number of surviving rood screens in England with new rood screens erected under Anglo Catholic influence in the 19th century, England probably has the greatest collection of new and original rood screens in the world).

We also know that curtains, for the purpose of veiling the sanctuary, are extremely ancient; not only are they used to varying extents by the Eastern Orthodox churches (except for the Carpatho-Rusyn-Lemko parishes, which usually seem to lack them), but they are also used by all Oriental Orthodox churches and by the Assyrian and the Ancient Church of the East, and indeed by most of the Eastern Catholics, with the exception of the Ruthenians (which also serve the Carpatho-Rusyn-Lemko ethnic group; I suspect this is a Latinization, but since it is part of the heritage of the Ruthenian-Carpatho-Rusyn/Lemko community, I would be opposed to changing it, and that same community is exceedingly pious; ACROD has the highest Sunday attendance ratio of any Orthodox church in North America, and the Rusyns have the extremely ancient and beautiful system of congregational singing, Prostopinije.  I particularly love their Christmas music).

The antiquity of the curtain is further attested by the fact that St. Epiphanius of Salamis ripped down a curtain he considered to have inappropriate iconography, and wrote a letter mentioning it, which also talked about buying for the parish a suitable replacement curtain made of expensive, high quality fabric.  I suspect the idea of veiling the sanctuary goes back to the earliest days of the Church, and was influenced by the veil in the Second Temple, and the miraculous tearing of that veil which occurred when our Lord died on the cross.  There is an enormous eschatological depth involved in the veiling and unveiling of the sanctuary, which is why I particularly like those rites where this occurs at key moments throughout the liturgy, for example, the Byzantine, Armenian and West Syriac Rites, and I think, the East Syriac Rite (I can’t recall if they close the curtains during the service or not).

I consider it to be fairly obvious that the removal of rood screens and Ciborium veils in the wake of the Council of Trent was an event which created a fallacy about the need of the laity to see the altar, which in turn, combined with some architectural features of certain ancient churches in Rome where the presence of a confessio, or dip, in front of the altar, for pilgrims in between services to descend and get as close as humanly possible to the burial places of St. Peter and other celebrated Roman martyrs, and the ill advised and inexplicable* decision of the Church of South India to celebrate the liturgy versus populum, and the ancient practice of the episcopal throne being placed directly behind the altar, to create a perfect storm which led to the mass-adoption of celebration versus populum in the Novus Ordo Missae.

*One possible explanarion might be certain recent Greek texts of the liturgy of St. James, which have bizarre features like the celebrant being assisted by 12 priests representing the Twelve Disciples,mand the celebrant conducting the liturgy verdus populum at a movable table erected in front of the Iconostasis.

I strongly doubt these bizarre rubrics were used outside of hierarchical divine liturgies of the Church of Jerusalem, and am inclined to believe that on ordinary occasions, the Divine Liturgy of St. James was celebrated in an ordinary manner.  And there is a video on YouTube of a Russian bishop celebrating the liturgy of St. James behind the iconostasis, versus populum, at the regular altar: https://youtu.be/UdI58Sv4fGY

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

Offline Dominika

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2019, 05:08:54 AM »
I have splitted the last posts about the st. James (Jacob Liturgy) and now they are part of the new thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,75760.0.html

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Offline Alpha60

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2019, 08:04:18 PM »
So does anyone else have some beautiful pictures for us?

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The ancient ways shall prevail.

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #68 on: March 10, 2019, 01:05:06 AM »




This is about as close to my ideal as any parish I've attended. I'm not too fond of the floor to wall deals - the few I've seen were in Greek parishes of an age when the iconographic style employed was very... non-Byzantine.
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #69 on: March 10, 2019, 02:32:47 PM »
Here's my parish's iconostasis.


I don't really have an ideal anymore, as long as the Liturgy happens there.
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #70 on: March 10, 2019, 03:18:37 PM »
Here's my parish's iconostasis.


I don't really have an ideal anymore, as long as the Liturgy happens there.

Ooh I like that iconostasis.  And your stained glass windows are awesome.  The next major project should be some iconographix frescoes on those walls and the ceiling, and a newer, more aesthetically pleasing Emergency Exit sign (the unit you are using looks like the dangerous, old fashioned type filled with radioactive tritium; if so, if it ever fell to the floor and broke open, your parish would have a huge mess).

But seriously, I love the decor in that parish.  I absolutely love it.  What jurisdiction is that?  Antiochian?  What parish is that, if I might ask?  I want to visit.  That place is filled with beautiful prayer.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 03:20:16 PM by Alpha60 »

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2019, 03:22:11 PM »




This is about as close to my ideal as any parish I've attended. I'm not too fond of the floor to wall deals - the few I've seen were in Greek parishes of an age when the iconographic style employed was very... non-Byzantine.

This is very pretty.

If you want to see some authentic ancient floor to wall iconostases, take a look at some of the ancient churches in the Kremlin and elsewhere in Russia.

Council of Nicea:
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Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2019, 05:17:40 PM »
Here's my parish's iconostasis.


I don't really have an ideal anymore, as long as the Liturgy happens there.

Ooh I like that iconostasis.  And your stained glass windows are awesome.  The next major project should be some iconographix frescoes on those walls and the ceiling, and a newer, more aesthetically pleasing Emergency Exit sign (the unit you are using looks like the dangerous, old fashioned type filled with radioactive tritium; if so, if it ever fell to the floor and broke open, your parish would have a huge mess).

But seriously, I love the decor in that parish.  I absolutely love it.  What jurisdiction is that?  Antiochian?  What parish is that, if I might ask?  I want to visit.  That place is filled with beautiful prayer.
Since you asked:

This is Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox in Raleigh, NC. The iconostasis is from 1937 and the rest of the building is from about 1984, I think.

Our next project, though, is building #3 as ours is a bit too small (it's basically full every week) and not in the greatest shape. I think the plan is for an all-new iconostasis though with Byzantine icons. FormerReformer's example is really sweet, but I'm not sure we're going to go that far  ;)

We could always copy the local Antiochian parish's iconostasis:


As far as Orthodoxy goes, Raleigh is not too shabby.
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2019, 02:09:02 AM »
That's beautiful!

But you're not tearing down your current 1937 church, I hope?  I mean, if you don't need it I can guarantee you another Orthodox Church could use it, for example, maybe another group under the EP, like AOCNA, or the UOCNA, as a mission parish.  And its also good to have multiple chapels if the new building is one the same site. 

Council of Nicea:
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Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2019, 02:23:45 AM »
If the rubrics suddenly change, like in the Russian Church following the Nikonian revision, or in the Greek church following the double-whammy of the Violakis Typikon and the Revised Julian Calendar, that is of course a different matter entirely.  But the mere appearance of rubrics is not extremely helpful when it comes to dating liturgical traditions.

I must take issue with this. The Violakis typikon matches very closely the Konstantinos typikon. It certainly wasn’t a whammy in that sense, since many things that are commonly said to be innovations introduced by Violakis are also present in Konstantinos.
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2019, 06:47:05 AM »
If the rubrics suddenly change, like in the Russian Church following the Nikonian revision, or in the Greek church following the double-whammy of the Violakis Typikon and the Revised Julian Calendar, that is of course a different matter entirely.  But the mere appearance of rubrics is not extremely helpful when it comes to dating liturgical traditions.

I must take issue with this. The Violakis typikon matches very closely the Konstantinos typikon. It certainly wasn’t a whammy in that sense, since many things that are commonly said to be innovations introduced by Violakis are also present in Konstantinos.

Let me clarify: in my opinion a double-whammy effect was produced when ill-advised changes made by Violakis, like the infamous movement of the reading of the Gospel at Orthros, which has attracted scorn even from such Irenic figures as Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, were combined with the adoption of the Revised Julian Calendar, which in my opinion created a compound effect of liturgical degradation in those churches which use them.  Sort of like how using high explosives to propel a ring-shaped mass of U-235 around a cylinder of the same, so that when the two are combined they form a critical mass that creates severe and undesirable effects (like the schism of the Old Calendarists, different dates between Orthodox churches for Menaion feasts, and between Greek parishes and the monasteries of the Holy Mountain, the intermittent disappearance of the Apostles’ Fast, the pointless enlongation of the post-Epiphany period and contraction of the post-Pentecostarion period).

The Syriac Orthodox Church also made the mistake of adopting the revised Julian calendar, in the Levant and the Levantine diaspora (but not in India, where the Gregorian Calendar is used, or as far as I am aware, Jerusalem, where everyone tends to use the Julian Calendar), but the damage was less severe because there wasn’t any correspondingly unpleasant change in the rubrics (except for allowing organs, but that didn’t blow up in our face until recently, when electronic keyboards generating all manner of annoying and distracting sounds started showing up in worship; fortunately in the Western US they are becoming rarer).  Also I would observe some aspects of Syriac Orthodox worship are less complex than the Byzantine Rite; specifically, I don’t think any liturgy in the world is as complicated, ornate or subject to as much of an array of calendar-based rules as Orthros or the Russian/Athonite All Night Vigils.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #76 on: March 12, 2019, 08:47:21 AM »
If the rubrics suddenly change, like in the Russian Church following the Nikonian revision, or in the Greek church following the double-whammy of the Violakis Typikon and the Revised Julian Calendar, that is of course a different matter entirely.  But the mere appearance of rubrics is not extremely helpful when it comes to dating liturgical traditions.

I must take issue with this. The Violakis typikon matches very closely the Konstantinos typikon. It certainly wasn’t a whammy in that sense, since many things that are commonly said to be innovations introduced by Violakis are also present in Konstantinos.

Let me clarify: in my opinion a double-whammy effect was produced when ill-advised changes made by Violakis, like the infamous movement of the reading of the Gospel at Orthros, which has attracted scorn even from such Irenic figures as Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, were combined with the adoption of the Revised Julian Calendar, which in my opinion created a compound effect of liturgical degradation in those churches which use them.  Sort of like how using high explosives to propel a ring-shaped mass of U-235 around a cylinder of the same, so that when the two are combined they form a critical mass that creates severe and undesirable effects (like the schism of the Old Calendarists, different dates between Orthodox churches for Menaion feasts, and between Greek parishes and the monasteries of the Holy Mountain, the intermittent disappearance of the Apostles’ Fast, the pointless enlongation of the post-Epiphany period and contraction of the post-Pentecostarion period).

The Syriac Orthodox Church also made the mistake of adopting the revised Julian calendar, in the Levant and the Levantine diaspora (but not in India, where the Gregorian Calendar is used, or as far as I am aware, Jerusalem, where everyone tends to use the Julian Calendar), but the damage was less severe because there wasn’t any correspondingly unpleasant change in the rubrics (except for allowing organs, but that didn’t blow up in our face until recently, when electronic keyboards generating all manner of annoying and distracting sounds started showing up in worship; fortunately in the Western US they are becoming rarer).  Also I would observe some aspects of Syriac Orthodox worship are less complex than the Byzantine Rite; specifically, I don’t think any liturgy in the world is as complicated, ornate or subject to as much of an array of calendar-based rules as Orthros or the Russian/Athonite All Night Vigils.

The eothinon being moved to after the 8th ode of the canon is precisely one of the changes that predates Violakis. It is already present in the 1838 typikon of Konstantinos Protopsaltis.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 08:52:14 AM by Cavaradossi »
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #77 on: March 12, 2019, 10:40:59 AM »
If you read Greek, you can find the 1838 typikon at the link below: https://anemi.lib.uoc.gr/metadata/0/4/5/metadata-39-0000547.tkl

The description of the order of matins (with the gospel moved) is given on page 8 of the pdf (page 2 of the book).
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #78 on: March 12, 2019, 11:20:43 AM »
That's beautiful!

But you're not tearing down your current 1937 church, I hope?  I mean, if you don't need it I can guarantee you another Orthodox Church could use it, for example, maybe another group under the EP, like AOCNA, or the UOCNA, as a mission parish.  And its also good to have multiple chapels if the new building is one the same site.
I can't remember what they did with the original 1937 building (probably renting or sold to non-Orthodox) but I'm pretty sure we're not tearing down the current one.

The new building will be next door on land part of one of the founders' family is selling to us...but there's some property line dispute or encroachment they need to work out with a neighbor.

There's another parish looking for a site for a new building and actually bought some land before finding out they needed to build in water, sewer, gas, etc. from scratch and ended up selling it. 

Real estate around here sucks  ;D
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #79 on: March 12, 2019, 04:00:28 PM »
If you read Greek, you can find the 1838 typikon at the link below: https://anemi.lib.uoc.gr/metadata/0/4/5/metadata-39-0000547.tkl

The description of the order of matins (with the gospel moved) is given on page 8 of the pdf (page 2 of the book).

Ah interesting, I recall Metropolitan Kallistos Ware blaming Violakis for it but I may have misread it.

Whoever modified the Typikon to do that, abolish the Typical Psalms, and eliminate provisions for Kyriopascha, did a pretty bad job.  I don’t like that particular Typikon or its derivatives; I prefer the Sabaite Typikon.  I have heard some regional practices in use by Byzantine Orthodox in the Ottoman Empire which were not present in the monastic Typikons used in Russia before or after the Nikonian reforms, or on Mount Athos, were included in it, and some of these originated in the Cathedral Typikon, and that part I would not object to.  But I do have a beef with the aforementioned changes to the “Typikon in the Style of the Great Church,” since it is not actually the stupendous Typikon that governed the splendid worship at Hagia Sophia, and it does away with some beautiful features of the Studite-Sabaite versions.  But it is not horrible.  Indeed, I used to bristle at the changes New Skete made, but actually their rite is based more on the old Cathedral Typikon, and I have since learned that Orthodox monasteries have broad discretion regarding their typikon (all I really object to as far as New Skete goes is an article they published in which they attempted to promote their typikon for use elsewhere, along with other bits of modernism).

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2019, 04:45:19 PM »
I forgot about this photo, it's really nice iconostasis, st. Ephrem the Syrian church, Baskenta, Lebanon


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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2019, 04:51:45 PM »
I forgot about this photo, it's really nice iconostasis, st. Ephrem the Syrian church, Baskenta, Lebanon




I love that iconostasis.

Council of Nicea:
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Mores antiqui obtineant.
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The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2019, 04:59:55 PM »
Whoever modified the Typikon to do that, abolish the Typical Psalms

Actually the Violakis typikon prescribes the typical psalms and Beatitudes for Sundays, with the antiphons used for feast days and weekdays. Nowadays the Greek/Antiochian parishes just use antiphons all the time (speaking generally).
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2019, 05:46:55 PM »
Whoever modified the Typikon to do that, abolish the Typical Psalms

Actually the Violakis typikon prescribes the typical psalms and Beatitudes for Sundays, with the antiphons used for feast days and weekdays. Nowadays the Greek/Antiochian parishes just use antiphons all the time (speaking generally).

I always thought the typical psalms on Sundays were a Sabbaite feature.
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2019, 03:09:54 AM »
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 03:13:12 AM by Dominika »
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2019, 11:51:05 AM »
Church of "Kazańska" icon in Ekaterinburg, Russia

http://kazansky.cerkov.ru/img_2769-09-11-18-12-05


http://kazansky.cerkov.ru/img_2724-09-11-18-12-01

Awesome.  The frescoes in the apse remind me of the celebrated frescoes of Danish churches.  And the iconostasis itself is stunning.  Dominika, you seem to have figured out precisely what I love in an iconostasis.  ;)

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Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2019, 12:28:32 PM »
Church of "Kazańska" icon in Ekaterinburg, Russia

http://kazansky.cerkov.ru/img_2769-09-11-18-12-05


http://kazansky.cerkov.ru/img_2724-09-11-18-12-01

That particular pale freesco style is perhaps local to Ektarinenburg?  This exquisite iconostasis, which gives the impression of a heavenly terrace, is at the church erected on the site of the martyrdom of Czar Nicholas II and his family: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Church_on_the_Blood,_Yekaterinburg#/media/File%3ATsarskaya_Street_10%2C_Yekaterinburg_(116).jpg

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Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2019, 08:30:49 PM »
I don't often like to go on about my "ideal" in Liturgy since Christ comes to feed his flock regardless of aesthetics, but I find myself less drawn to the iconostasis of the East and more drawn to the ciborium (the architectural form, not the sacred vessel) also called the baldachin, as they stand in the great Roman basilica churches.  (Attachment No. 1)

Although the vast majority of remaining ciboria or baldachini tend not to be equipped with curtains, I've been told that they once did have curtains drawn across them during specific portions of the Mass.  (Attachment No. 2) I'm not as liturgically educated as many who have commented in this thread, so I'd appreciate confirmation or more information concerning curtains and ciboria in relation to the western Holy Mass. 

Perhaps this is indicative of where I stand personally, coming from a Latin Christian family and being drawn to the traditions that have survived only in the East, but I personally really like the layout of St. Mark's in Venice with both ciborium and see-through rood screen (not like it matters that it's see-through because the whole sanctuary is elevated, blocking the view of most but the tallest lay worshippers.)  You can't see the ciboria and altar very well, but if you can see it, it's quite beautiful. (Attachment No. 3)

When you get past the rood screen, you are greeted with the altar. (Attachment No. 4)

Those first and third pictures are so harrowingly gorgeous they make me dizzy... I wish I knew more.
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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2019, 03:43:13 PM »
The ciborium was also a feature of Hagia Sophia and some Byzantine Churches have them.  Our seminary has one.


This is exquisite.  Is there an iconostasis or a templon in front of that?

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The ancient ways shall prevail.

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Re: The ideal iconostasis
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2019, 04:08:16 PM »
I don't often like to go on about my "ideal" in Liturgy since Christ comes to feed his flock regardless of aesthetics, but I find myself less drawn to the iconostasis of the East and more drawn to the ciborium (the architectural form, not the sacred vessel) also called the baldachin, as they stand in the great Roman basilica churches.  (Attachment No. 1)

Although the vast majority of remaining ciboria or baldachini tend not to be equipped with curtains, I've been told that they once did have curtains drawn across them during specific portions of the Mass.  (Attachment No. 2) I'm not as liturgically educated as many who have commented in this thread, so I'd appreciate confirmation or more information concerning curtains and ciboria in relation to the western Holy Mass. 

Perhaps this is indicative of where I stand personally, coming from a Latin Christian family and being drawn to the traditions that have survived only in the East, but I personally really like the layout of St. Mark's in Venice with both ciborium and see-through rood screen (not like it matters that it's see-through because the whole sanctuary is elevated, blocking the view of most but the tallest lay worshippers.)  You can't see the ciboria and altar very well, but if you can see it, it's quite beautiful. (Attachment No. 3)

When you get past the rood screen, you are greeted with the altar. (Attachment No. 4)

Those first and third pictures are so harrowingly gorgeous they make me dizzy... I wish I knew more.

Indeed.  I think its fair to say that during the first millenium, and indeed until the Renaissance, there was a strong visual correlation between Eastern and Western churches, with the rood screen closely resembling the early Eastern iconostases, like the Templon at Hagia Sophia.  The divergence occurred after the schism, with rood screens being stripped away and the altar and holy table being put on display in front of the people with nary a curtain to conceal it from prying eyes (and indeed, the idea of a sacred space around the altar became compromised, so the altar increasingly just meant the Holy Table), whereas in the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox churches, the iconostasis became much more of an impressive and imposing dividing line between the altar and the nave (and the Syriac, Armenian and Ethiopian churches arguably preserved an intermediate state between the two).

Where things get very interesting in the early church is in the Gallican Rite and the two derivatives of it still in use, the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rite.  The Ambrosian Rite is liturgically Latinized, with an anaphora very similiar to the Roman canon, but Ambrosian chant sounds a lot like Byzantine or Romanian chant without an ison, and very different from Gregorian.  The Mozarabic Rite still preserves the highly variable anaphora, which would change dramatically throughout the liturgical year in a manner reminiscent of the diversity of anaphoras and the scheduled transitions between them we find in the Eastern liturgical tradition.  And we know the Gallican Rite shared these attributes.  So in the Mozarabic and Gallican Rite, and presumably at one time in the Ambrosian rite, you would regularly encounter features like the Trisagion, which are unknown in the ancient Roman Rite, and which in the modern Gallican-influenced Roman Rite* occur only on Good Friday.  So it is thrilling to contemplate a Western Rite liturgy with a rood screen, a ciborium over the altar, the kind of iconography we see above, and liturgical features such as the routine use of the Trisagion, and flowery, superlative-laden forms of prayer historically absent from the extremely conservative, terse, laconic style of the Roman Rite.

*The Tridentine mass represents a synthesis of various Western Rite liturgies which in turn represent a synthesis of the old Roman Rite and the Gallican Rite, biased in favour of the Roman Rite, but with features introduced from the Gallican Rite to inject an additional vitality into the liturgy.  One sees this in various regional liturgies like the Sarum Rite, the York Rite, the Rite of Lyon, and the Rite of Braga.  One also sees this in the liturgical rites of various RC religious orders, particularly the rite of the Carthusians, which is a variant of the Roman Rite with some Gallican influence especially adapted for the unique penitential culture of the semi-hermetic lifestyle one finds in a Carthusian Charterhouse, and in the rites of the Norbertines, Carmelites, and the most famous of these rites, the Dominican Rite, which was specifically created for the same purpose as the Tridentine Rite, to provide for liturgical standardization, so that Dominican Friars did not have to learn a new liturgy in each region in which they operated.  The Dominican Rite in particular is like an alternate configuration of the Tridentine Rite, in that it represents a recension of the Roman Rite with Gallican influences created for basically the same purpose.

Council of Nicea:
Εθη ἀρχαῖα κρατείτω. 
Mores antiqui obtineant.
The ancient ways shall prevail.

The sentiment of Nicea in Greek and Latin, translated into English.